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FoxDog
170 Posts
it seems blizzard has two departments that are mutually exclusive, the publicity section brags "we desire feedback" while the balancing department have decided that the game is perfectly balanced allready and will thus change nothing or even acknowledge feedback. Thor 250mm cannon should be brought back, the anti air priority should be reverted so they dont shoot random overlords or floating buildings, the thor is a joke as an anti air unit currently. | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On January 18 2016 01:31 Big J wrote: It's funny, you keep on jumping back and forth between two types of arguments. In the one you say the tank is bad as a unit itself in a purist approach, In the other you say the tank might be good in certain gamespecific situations (your stalkerexample) and because of certain dynamics/synergies (like the medivac) which is a completely different approach to look at the tank. You gotta pick what you want to argue. My original point was that the tank sees a lot of use due to its medivac synergy. That's were you came in and told me to look at the tank without the medivac synergy to see its bad. So I did, I looked at the tank without the medivac synergy and without all the other thousands of factors like the costs of factories and the power of queens and came to the conclusion it was a very good unit in itself if I go by your purist approach. Which is were you just skip my whole argument and come in with some ludicrous examples like putting too few tanks in the open and then crying that they were too few against T1 units. I mean you answered your own question, just make a few more if you haven't hit what you call the critical number. Jesus, if you can do it with a lower critical number are you going to cry that you still can't do it if you don't have the critical number? That's point of a critical number... You can't remember anyone saying the tank was strong. Maybe you are familiar with this type of argument: "buff the tank. but of course you have to remove the medivac pick up, or it's going to be too strong". Evidently everyone who argues like that thinks that you can't "just" buff the tank or it would be too strong. You are arguing in poor faith here. If an adult discussion is to take place, one party cannot intentionally misrepresent or pretend to not understand the other's statements. I am not jumping back and forth between anything. Maybe you are familiar with this type of argument: "buff the tank. but of course you have to remove the medivac pick up, or it's going to be too strong". It is clear from what I wrote before that I was referring to tanks without the pickup, i.e. pre-LotV tanks. I do not think that the tank should be buffed while tankivac is in the game. All I said was that without sieged pickups the tank is a weak unit. My original point was that the tank sees a lot of use due to its medivac synergy. As for my original point: My original point was that it is not a blatant lie to say that the tank is a weak unit and many people hold that view. That is all. Nothing else. Zip. Nada. Zlich. Clearly I know that the tank is used a lot at the moment, and clearly Avilo know this as well. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2627 Posts
In HotS you needed at least 4 bases to have enough to max out the ultimate army (wich was ravens/vikings/BCs btw not tanks) in LotV you would need at least 3 more bases to achieve the same effect, already forcing turtle play out of the meta. | ||
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SiegeRider
2 Posts
Right now, if these buffs would go through, it would be impossibly hard to play against mech on maps like Prion Terraces and Dusk Towers. I completely agree that BW mech was really fun to watch, but if Blizzard does buff the tank, I hope to God they also get some inspiration from BW maps. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 18 2016 02:41 Bohemond wrote: You are arguing in poor faith here. If an adult discussion is to take place, one party cannot intentionally misrepresent or pretend to not understand the other's statements. I am not jumping back and forth between anything. It is clear from what I wrote before that I was referring to tanks without the pickup, i.e. pre-LotV tanks. I do not think that the tank should be buffed while tankivac is in the game. All I said was that without sieged pickups the tank is a weak unit. As for my original point: My original point was that it is not a blatant lie to say that the tank is a weak unit and many people hold that view. That is all. Nothing else. Zip. Nada. Zlich. Clearly I know that the tank is used a lot at the moment, and clearly Avilo know this as well. There is no pre-LotV tank in LotV! For fucks sake, I say the tank is quite strong right now and you say no it's not because you refer to the tank that can't be picked up by the medivac, a unit that does not exist. On January 17 2016 21:04 Big J wrote: Reality check Either the tank as it is right now is strong, or it isn't. And it is strong right now. It is not working the way many players want it to work, but that doesn't mean it's weak. And I said you are jumping between arguments because you either have to argue the tank alone in a unit tester-esque way, or you have to argue the tank in a real game scenario. Anything in between is bullshit, aka, a tank without medivac pickup in a real game, wtf. (for determining its strenght) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
The statement that the tank is a weak unit is not a blatant lie. The tank, as an individual unit, is weak according to many people, are they all blatant liars? It is possible for a unit to be weak individually, but effective with synergy. It is possible for a unit to be weak in general, but strong in certain circumstances. You are trying argue against something I have not said and purposely misinterpreting me. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 18 2016 04:19 Bohemond wrote: Big J, The statement that the tank is a weak unit is not a blatant lie. The tank, as an individual unit, is weak according to many people, are they all blatant liars? It is possible for a unit to be weak individually, but effective with synergy. It is possible for a unit to be weak in general, but strong in certain circumstances. You are trying argue against something I have not said and purposely misinterpreting me. But the unit is not weak individually. You can go to any unit tester and check for yourself, tanks are quite strong and with a tiny bit of buffer/support can wipe any ground composition that Terran and Zerg can field in cost- and supplyequal scenarios. I'm not purposely missinterpreting you. I'm just sick of hearing that the tank is bad despite it being played in all matchups right now and despite turtlemech heavily reliant on tanks being the dominant style at the end of HotS (even without medivacpick-up) in TvZ and TvT. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On January 18 2016 04:36 Big J wrote: But the unit is not weak individually. You can go to any unit tester and check for yourself, tanks are quite strong and with a tiny bit of buffer/support can wipe any ground composition that Terran and Zerg can field in cost- and supplyequal scenarios. I'm not purposely missinterpreting you. I'm just sick of hearing that the tank is bad despite it being played in all matchups right now and despite turtlemech heavily reliant on tanks being the dominant style at the end of HotS (even without medivacpick-up) in TvZ and TvT. If you go by the unit tester marines are not viable in TvZ due to Blings. There's more to unit strength then just doing an artificial test. Mobility, micro, production capability, etc. When all things are considered, Tanks are very poor vs P and mediocre vs Z. This is reflected then in real games. | ||
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billynasty
United States260 Posts
On January 18 2016 02:23 FoxDog wrote: I agree 100% with avilo and strelok and i think the problem is that david kim doesnt seem to take feedback. it seems blizzard has two departments that are mutually exclusive, the publicity section brags "we desire feedback" while the balancing department have decided that the game is perfectly balanced allready and will thus change nothing or even acknowledge feedback. Thor 250mm cannon should be brought back, the anti air priority should be reverted so they dont shoot random overlords or floating buildings, the thor is a joke as an anti air unit currently. I'm pretty sure David Kim has received all of this feedback. My impression on everything though is that I question their ability to really do anything about it. Everything is weighed in a cost/benefit risk analysis & as a team, do they make risky changes in the hopes to make the game more diverse & potentially better? Or do they tweak little things here & there to take more of a conservative path? I wouldn't be surprised if the Blizz Execs reviewed the sales numbers & concluded the numbers were good enough for them & that this game is pretty much done. If we're gonna get any movement on this issue at all, imo we need to stoke the passions of Mike Morhaime to get the wheels turning for any real changes to mech / game mechanics / economy. Otherwise the game we have now will be what we have in the future. | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On January 18 2016 04:36 Big J wrote: But the unit is not weak individually. You can go to any unit tester and check for yourself, tanks are quite strong and with a tiny bit of buffer/support can wipe any ground composition that Terran and Zerg can field in cost- and supplyequal scenarios. I'm not purposely missinterpreting you. I'm just sick of hearing that the tank is bad despite it being played in all matchups right now and despite turtlemech heavily reliant on tanks being the dominant style at the end of HotS (even without medivacpick-up) in TvZ and TvT. Are you actually unaware of that fact that a person(s) can be incorrect without blatantly lying? Do you not realize that is all I said when I responded to you originally? You seem intelligent and articulate, so I assumed you understood those two things. For example: In my experience, it takes more than 'a tiny bit of buffer' for a handful of deployed tanks to trade cost effectively vs. Terran ground. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm insane and imagining this whole conversation, but I am not lying when I say it. The veracity of the claim is not important. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 18 2016 04:44 Sapphire.lux wrote: If you go by the unit tester marines are not viable in TvZ due to Blings. There's more to unit strength then just doing an artificial test. Mobility, micro, production capability, etc. When all things are considered, Tanks are very poor vs P and mediocre vs Z. This is reflected then in real games. You see, that's where I said that he is switching between arguments. He said the tank is weak because he just refers to the tank without the medivac, which is not reflected in real games. In real games tanks are played in all matchups at the moment. But I gave him that benefit and said ok, let's do it your way. Go to the unit tester and just test the tank. Really, you gotta decide what measure you want to apply. The real game scenario, or the tester scenario. But you can't do a half-arsed in between where you take a real game and then dismiss the medivac interaction. Also, I don't see your point with marines and banelings. You can micro in the unit tester, and you can make compositions with marines that are pretty good against zerg compositions with banelings, but yeah, they won't be end-all compositions. I agree about mobility, which is hard to test. I disagree about production, production is a value of production buildings since you can make up for any amount of production time by making more production facilities. Which is something I already said, the tank draws its weakness from the factory, the same way it draws strenght from the medivac. In a real game what we are left with is watching if the unit is played successfully. But if we evaluate the unit on its own (which doesn't necessarily have to be a unit tester, that's just an easy way to test combat strengths in a vacuum), you cannot just say the tank is weak because 10 ravagers beat 3 tanks. That doesn't show that the tank is weak, but it might be an argument that the queen is horribly overpowered in comparison to the factory. On January 18 2016 04:53 Bohemond wrote: Are you actually unaware of that fact that a person(s) can be incorrect without blatantly lying? Do you not realize that is all I said when I responded to you originally? You seem intelligent and articulate, so I assumed you understood those two things. For example: In my experience, it takes more than 'a tiny bit of buffer' for a handful of deployed tanks to trade cost effectively vs. Terran ground. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm insane and imagining this whole conversation, but I am not lying when I say it. The veracity of the claim is not important. I'm fully aware of that. And I'm fully aware of who I responded to, which was avilo not you or anybody else. I stand by what I said, it's a blatant lie. He just calls it weak because he wants the unit to be buffed in stats so he can use it differently than it is used right now. But it is lie. Watch his episode on the Evolution chamber and how much he circlejerks about how good tanks are against protoss. Then you know it's a lie if he now says or writes that tanks are weak. | ||
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Bareleon
371 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 17 2016 15:08 Thinh123456 wrote: Lol, but you are absolutely right about this  )))Anw, I just still don't get it. You want to get its damage back. Ok, done. Now you have 2 choices: either turtle to 200/200 army or somehow be able to moving out on the map to attack with small force??? The latter is ok, but the problem is the first choice. Since people were getting used to play safe, turtle mech; then why do they need to try to move out before 200/200??? I understand that the turtle play style will come eventually as the match last longer, so i think to force people out of turtle play is very hard if there is only a change to tank damage. I mean there must be a clear advantage/disadvantage between the turtle and the active play of Mech. Therefor, i believe introducing overkill and bring back the old siegetank damage is a solid way to go (2 supply siegetank sounds interesting, but it will even cause the game to redesign about clumping, maps, units'stats,...) The disadvantage to turtle mech is the enemy takes the whole map and macros up 100 gateways + x robos and then just instantly remaxes when your army dies. I personally think it should take multiple waves of basic units to take out a well positioned pushing mech force. It's supposed to be strong. Right now, mech can't trade well enough to ever push an advantage unless you're insanely ahead through harass. | ||
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
![[image loading]](http://static.tweakers.net/ext/f/aI9BmpECwHGHxxVBpVuL6kQD/full.png) | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On January 18 2016 05:05 Big J wrote: I'm fully aware of that. And I'm fully aware of who I responded to, which was avilo not you or anybody else. I stand by what I said, it's a blatant lie. He just calls it weak because he wants the unit to be buffed in stats so he can use it differently than it is used right now. But it is lie. Watch his episode on the Evolution chamber and how much he circlejerks about how good tanks are against protoss. Then you know it's a lie if he now says or writes that tanks are weak. I'm trying real hard to imagine that you're a fundamentally good egg, so I'm going to give this one more shot. You are misrepresenting what I said, and now, with the above, you are misrepresenting what Avilo said on Evo Chamber. You see, that's where I said that he is switching between arguments. He said the tank is weak because he just refers to the tank without the medivac, which is not reflected in real games. In real games tanks are played in all matchups at the moment. But I gave him that benefit and said ok, let's do it your way. Go to the unit tester and just test the tank. Really, you gotta decide what measure you want to apply. The real game scenario, or the tester scenario. But you can't do a half-arsed in between where you take a real game and then dismiss the medivac interaction. He is perfectly capable of reading my own posts. Within my own posts is what I actually said. You invent arguments I did not posit and then start debunking them. This is disingenuous and arguing in poor faith. I stand by what I said, it's a blatant lie... Watch his episode on the Evolution chamber and how much he circlejerks about how good tanks are against protoss. Then you know it's a lie if he now says or writes that tanks are weak. He is in the OP, in my mind rather clearly, referring to the tank being a weak unit (in his opinion) with regards to its stats and cost. Also, we both know that he knows that tank is used in all match ups right now, so when you say: Reality check:... It's currently being played in all matchups. Acting like you're saying something he doesn't know. You are, once again, arguing in bad faith. I could be mistaken, but I don't think he expects tankivacs to remain with his suggested change. I don't watch his stream with any regularity, but I as I recall, he doesn't approve of tankivacs due to the horrible impact it has had on mech in TvT. I think it's pretty clear he's not suggesting a straight up buff to tanks without removing the pickup. Maybe I'm mistaken. As for the Evo Chamber episode, the strength of the tank in that match up is, clearly, entirely dependent on medivacs. I know that you know that. You know that Avilo knows that. Why pretend otherwise? Without the medivac pickup, tanks would be much worse, and probably wouldn't see much play outside of TvT. That's what I mean when I say the tank is a weak unit, I assume that's what he means. Why call him a liar for positing a reasonable opinion that many other people (myself included) agree with? Why repeatedly try and make it out that I'm arguing things I'm not arguing? | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
1. Remove tankivac. 2. Tone down parasitic bomb 3. Improve tank damage I am not sure it is necessary to improve mech anti-air though. Vikings, Liberators and BC are good enough as they are if only parasitic bomb got nerfed and maybe Tempest supply cost increased. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1422 Posts
On January 18 2016 05:12 Bareleon wrote: Stasis wards aren't used much either, Blizzard should make them viable. Used to see them a lot when in beta the carriers were broken. Protoss then zoomed around with bunch of oracles, spammed stasis ward to give vision and map control around map while massing carrier behind it. Now I never see it used | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On January 18 2016 06:13 jinjin5000 wrote: Used to see them a lot when in beta the carriers were broken. Protoss then zoomed around with bunch of oracles, spammed stasis ward to give vision and map control around map while massing carrier behind it. Now I never see it used How i wish Terran had that ability. A supply free, soft ground control unit/ability would have synergized perfectly with mech. | ||
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