EPTCompare those with the gateway/robo units protoss has that attack air: Stalker and Archon (not a single one from robo).
Avilo SC2 Mech Feedback/Analysis for Blizz+SC2 - Page 3
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
Compare those with the gateway/robo units protoss has that attack air: Stalker and Archon (not a single one from robo). | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
I really hoped Blizz would try and make Terran more about the tank in the beta but instead the introduced an AIR UNIT that overlaps with it. Oh, and the tankivac ofc. | ||
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flipstar
226 Posts
If making it viable could be achieved by nerfing the air of all races however, I wouldn't be massively opposed to it since it's an issue that is annoying even without playing mech style. In PvT, if you pretend you don't have adept\prism and let terran get his lategame comp, libs are ridicolous. In PvP, if someone goes carriers, I still haven't figured out a better response than 'make carriers' other than hitting a timing window where your ground can contest his air. With voidrays storm works great so you can make an expensive army that contests it. I haven't found the same ground reply vs carriers if they reach critical mass. This is boring. (Someone please let me know if there's a great ground answer to carriers if you miss the window) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
People's argument against changing the tank to not suck are: "But avilo...turtle mech will be fucking ridiculous!" And to that i'd say it's a faulty argument because turtle mech will remain exactly the same as it is now - the only way to play the game. Making tanks stronger doesn't suddenly make turtle mech stronger - people will still stylistically turtle regardless, and in combination with the LOTV economy that's already intrinsically addressed. 1) Reality check: The tank doesn't suck. It's currently being played in all matchups. I wouldn't mind it working differently (without the medivac synergy), but saying it sucks is blatent lying. 2) "Turtle Mech will remain exactly the same as it is now - the only way to play the game." First lol that you think it's the only way to play. Then that you are contradicting yourself, saying buffing tanks will make the game more action packed, yet somehow everyone will still only turtle... And then that I don't see any reason to buff anything when the result is no change at all. 3) Ever heard of the swarm host patch? People don't intristically turtle. after the patch noone turtled on swarm hosts. People turtle when it's viable, they don't if it's not. Bio players don't turtle. Roach/ravager players don't turtle. Those strategies are only good if you don't turtle. You just have issues with such playstyles being good. In avilo's little wonderland it should always be better to defend and strategies that can kill a defending player are "broken", "too easy to play", both and in general you consider it bullshit if you don't get a freewin after you defended an attack. That's why you don't understand the argument, despite blatant evidence everywhere that people won't turtle if you just take away the tools to turtle. (swarm host patch, WoL ghost patch, LotV beta carrier build time nerf, general bio play, general roachbased play) If you buff all Mech strategies equally, then people will still play the strongest one which is turtlemech. What you have to do is take something away specifically from turtlemech while doing such a buff. It doesnt matter what you do, as long as turtlemech outshines other mech strategies it will be prefered. Not because players want to turtle, but because it is strongest. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
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lastride
2390 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
99% of SC1 games were mech and 99% of SC2 games are bio, which is entertaining, highly demanding and awesome. I have no problem with that. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
the problem i have in sc2 is that the more able multitasking player will always win if there is some defensive unit to rely on. since tanks can be used both offensively and defensively at rapid speed (to the point of kiting against bio with the help of a boosted medivac) there is almost no risk to use it if your opponent is playing a neutral and entirely normal build. defend harass>come out ahead if you were doing more multitasking and lost less than can be accepted by your opponent. players like bomber can practically win against lesser opponents making anything he wants as long as it's reasonable. the apm requirement is just so much higher if you want to play a clean seamless game with a mixture of pressure and macro. if everyone is playing defensively, behind buff tanks, the laddering scene is in my opinion a real drag. how are you supposed to know if it's some crazy mech attack as opposed to a 4m widow mine drop on large 4 player maps? it really throws things off kilter. the upside is that your slower players can plan out an elaborate game plan to ensure their factory style gameplay plays out, at some point attacking behind turret pushes, widow mines, hellbats, and buff marines. you are limiting the play of other races because you can play such a diverse style on practically any map and hope to attack at regular bio timings as well. is that exactly fair? perhaps you should start trying to hit rankings as random in this newer game as well. i find it mindblowing that you could play a game of zerg on stream and start complaining about aspects of terran as if it's bullshit or unfair. you main the race. | ||
Poopi
France13023 Posts
Mech is the most horrible thing terran had in WoL (didn't play enough HotS to know if it was as horrible) because it was boring as fuck to watch, to play and to play against and slow players could force stale and boring games... Except when playing or watching a video game you don't want it to be boring (even SSBM jiggly optimal style is less boring than mech yet everyone is mad with HungryBox games) and TvT will be utter boring if the tank becomes too strong again... | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
Is this rally a last ditched effort? I hope so, as we have had numerous threads of the same ilk in TL Forums recently and its getting rather tedious to the point of embarrassing. At least its on the Blizzard forums where it belongs so David Kim can see it and give it his full consideration , but i suspect it will wither and die because i think the sum total of Mech lovers can be counted on 2 hands, maybe even less as i am starting to suspect its the same two people with multiple accounts are doing all posting | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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Justinian
United Kingdom158 Posts
Blizzard could try it I suppose, but they would need to nerf mech in other ways or Terran would be far too strong. I do agree though that air units in general are too strong in SC2 and always have been. Except corruptors. | ||
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TwiggyWan
France342 Posts
and by our communities standards today, if we could go back in time, all of us would be yelling and screaming "OP OP NERF VULTURES MINES IMBA" instead of just "getting better." There should have been a fuck ton more patches and balance passes to SC2 throughout this games history, for balance, for strategic diversity, and just to even freshen up the game metagame-wise. Aren't you saying one thing and its opposite? For SC1 it was fine to not get patches but for SC2 you need them? Also what do you think about drilling claws mines + cyclones to deal with air? Doesn't it allow to be aggressive earlier since it can be produced easily from factories? | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
You are all the way for BW TvP was the mech to go and you want SC 2 to have a similar mech to BW. I tell you again, that this cant work. SC II does not support such mech style, no matter of the buffes you give it. As long as the SC II control allowes you to select all army, turtle style will always be the better choice then attack style. Snowballunits who work massed better then alone, will always get turtles and snowballed. Even when the siege tank does 100 flat damgae, a radius of 2 flat AOE, mech player will turtle to 200/200 and move then out. BW punished you for 200/200 supply in a way, that it was super hard to control such army and move it properly, clumping, moving bugs + the amount of needed control groups was a pain. This does not exist in SC II, select all army, move it to the enemy, watch it moving like a perfect ball. This does apply for all snowballing units, it was the reason behind why Brofestor could exists, or why rushing to T3 units is working like a charm: Instead, that it is hard to use the T3 units, it is super easy. The same still goes for the harass, BW harass was way harder and such either easier to defend or with arbiter recalls a larger commitment. When you say the BW Protoss had to get more bases and use this economy advantage, you dont even understand the SC II economy. Having 6 bases over 4 bases does not give you any advantage other then possible more gas stations. In BW that gave you also a large mineral boost. You cant outbase your enemy, because you cant outmine him without having way to much worker supply and then get crushed by the upturtled 200/200 army. When you want a moving mech, you want actually just BW back. You want another eco model, you want to go back to harder control with 12 units per selection and you want to back to bugged unit movement. When you just buff, revert or change mech in the current SC II, all you get is again a turtle mech meta on 4 bases. If you want to have your "moving mech" or BW mech, you had to change SC II completly in its core. If you dont do that, all your buffed mech will just again be a pure 4 base turtle meta. And dont come with the "lotv bases dont give enough resources for that". 13600 gas and 36000 minerals in 4 bases are enough to turtle to 200/200 ground mech. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2665 Posts
On January 17 2016 21:46 [PkF] Wire wrote: and 99% of SC2 games are bio, which is entertaining, highly demanding and awesome. I have no problem with that. Right now there are less mech games in SC2 that where bio games in BW | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
As has been mentioned and linked many times in other threads: there are lots of great mech games in SC2 despite the fact that it's rarely played. Mech being viable would add diversity, which most people agree is desirable. Would Zerg players be happier if they could only go LingBlingMuta in TvZ and never build Roaches or Hydras? Perhaps my memory is poor, but I seem to recall there being a push during the early days of HotS to make Roach/Hydra more viable. Wasn't there a speed upgrade added? Does anyone doubt that the people asking for Hydras to see more play would have felt somewhat bemused if a ton of people started posting about how they hate Hydras, they're sick of hearing about Hydras, sure Hydras are an iconic unit in BW, but this is SC2, that Hydras shouldn't be viable because they just don't feel like playing against them? And there is an extremely negative, borderline abusive tone to some posts in here, talking about how sick they are of this topic even being mentioned on these forums. No one is forcing anyone to click on this thread or post in it, so why does it matter if it's brought up? Is it a general practice of these people to go around the internet and tell other people not to talk about things? Do they do this in real life? Why would anyone care what people who they don't know are talking about? On January 17 2016 21:04 Big J wrote: 1) Reality check: The tank doesn't suck. It's currently being played in all matchups. I wouldn't mind it working differently (without the medivac synergy), but saying it sucks is blatent lying. He might mean that the tank sucks as a unit, which is true. Pretty much all of its strength in LotV comes from the medivac and its BS speed boost ability. Also, just because people build a unit doesn't mean it's good. People made tanks in WoL TvZ nearly every game even though it sucked because they had no other option. | ||
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Strelok
Ukraine320 Posts
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Strelok
Ukraine320 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On January 18 2016 00:11 Strelok wrote: Avilo you are right in 90% things, but there is 1 small problem. David Kim listens only to David Kim. And this guy wasn't fired after terrans were 14/16 in GSL, he wasn't fired after infestor-broodlord period not being fixed on entired 6 months. Do you really think your words will change ANYTHING? Yeah this is the elephant in the room. And let's not forget the period where swarm hosts were seriously a thing. The designers don't know what they're doing and so they're scared to take action. | ||
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