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On November 30 2015 20:29 KOtical wrote:
i totally disagree with your oppionon that you should be able to spell overcharge on nexus... with the high dmg output it got its absolutly dumb to put it on nexi, coz u cant kill a nexus as fast as u can kill pylons... that would totally break the game. also if u feel bad about losing a game coz u forgot to put a pylon near ur mineral line, tbh thats like the easiest thing to fix, by just building the damn pylon... protoss player first world problems...
It's hard staying polite with people like you.Long live to toss hater i guess,even if you may be right on this point you guys are just ruining SC2 experience sometimes.
Don't worry this is the least of my problem in LotV,mb lost 2 games on that, was just 2cts more for a casual approach OF COURSE
You can imagine this photon could cost more energy.Anyways i don't really care about this, was up to hear other comments would just be nice if it was not in the form of Protoss whining, for the god who know reason people hate this race and think it's OP no matter what (let's see PvZ without this! lolololol)
Something is strange because ppl don't like all or nothing of the disruptor,but for me the new overcharge is far less all or nothing than the previous one, on every aspect (You can cast it faster most of time in case Mcore is in danger of getting sniped, you have more choice on where the area is, and the list goes on, be it too strong or not) If you guys want to get back to WoL where T just had to get MM and go in the Toss&win like a tard before the 2nd base is up (, if the toss is'nt 2 league ) just says it.
And for disruptor i don't like the idea of it shooting less.. Aside from the balance perspective, i think for the part of the game where the P only have 1-2 Disruptor, it make the game even more all or nothing,since those shoots will be even more crucial. It would maybe make P more "economic" on those shots, and thus more defensive,but the result might be disruptor and stalker just staying in back since shooting is more risky,which is even more boring than protoss sending balls to each other.
Energy though might be a way to give templar a role in the match-up, though the fact that feedback almost killing the disruptor feels a bit easy to me.(it's easy to click and the disruptor can't really fight back like in a ghost/templar fight,+ the fireball being desamorced once it's dead..)
Also i don't know what to think about the ghost countering both templar and Disruptor. While it might not be that much a counter if energy regen fast..
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On December 01 2015 01:38 random hero wrote:
While I enjoyed watching the insane Showtime Parting PvP volleyball match, it did give me the feeling that in this situation, there is no way for one player to win, unless the other one makes a big mistake, or via an endlessly slow tempest attrition grind.
i dont really follow. they were both playing really well and they both took a LOT of significant disruptor hits that put each player quite far ahead in army at certain points. a player worse than showtime (random ladder GM for example) would have simply died to parting's superior micro long before 25 minutes. instead showtime kept up in a pretty tight back-and-forth, but parting gradually won by making more little plays here and there and just being better overall. i didn't see anything "endlessly slow" about the tempest transition, as they were both still pushing forward and showing aggression as best they could while they added tempests. it's not like the game was deadlocked and no one was moving their army until showtime took one huge hit and parting amoved over him, it was very very back and forth.
i think the focus should be on finding a ground-based counterplay to disruptors other than blink that makes disruptors still powerful and attractive yet also possible to beat in a straight-up fight without simply having a mix of better disruptor shots and a high disruptor count. whether that's through nerfs and redesigns like snute is suggesting or through patience and meta development like nony said remains to be seen. but i don't think it's a Problem Matchup, and i think people are overthinking the "this isn't starcraft/people will get bored of this" angle just because they're shocked by something so new coming out of the matchup.
it's easy to say the matchup is "just protoss throwing balls at each other." it's also easy to say that hots pvp was just protoss shooting lasers or that tvz was just marines splitting against banelings, you can do it with any matchup. at the moment top protoss have identified that disruptor micro is probably going to be a really important mechanical skill to hone in pursuit of staying competitive, so it makes sense that early games would appear to be heavily focused on mass blink disruptor wars. but once it's tied into the players' muscle memory and they're not learning the game as they go, build orders and unique strategies will probably start to play a bigger role.
hell, we could even start seeing something like void ray midgames to force your opponent to spend gas on archons/storm instead of mass disruptor. who knows? but even if disruptor micro remains a core mechanic of the matchup, so what? zergs have to live through ling/bane wars, which is an early game version of the exact same thing, just with smaller economies and cheaper units. zerg also has to micro lings against hellions and reapers over and over. terran has to split against AOE and micro drops/reposition tanks and liberators. all races have to pull back armies to get bigger concaves and better fights. all of these things are just mechanical interactions that players do hundreds of times, and i don't see why any of them becomes "boring" out of repetition alone.
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On December 01 2015 01:50 Kenny_mk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2015 20:29 KOtical wrote:
i totally disagree with your oppionon that you should be able to spell overcharge on nexus... with the high dmg output it got its absolutly dumb to put it on nexi, coz u cant kill a nexus as fast as u can kill pylons... that would totally break the game. also if u feel bad about losing a game coz u forgot to put a pylon near ur mineral line, tbh thats like the easiest thing to fix, by just building the damn pylon... protoss player first world problems... It's hard staying polite with people like you.Long live to toss hater i guess,even if you may be right on this point you guys are just ruining SC2 experience sometimes.
Tbh it is also hard to take people who ask for boosts to photon overcharge serious. Something like doubling the energy cost would be more reasonable imo (maybe + 1 range on it to compensate). Recently I also made the stupid mistake of killing the enemy MSc. So he made a new one and had automatically two new photon overcharges.
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I don't like disruptors. In some ways it's better than collosus, in some way a lot worse. I wish it was changed significantly. Personally I don't have a good solution, but there are some in this topic and Blizzard should test some.
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The Disruptor is showing that positional play is actually very interesting, even though it's not really that positional a unit. It clearly zones out enemy forces from moving nearby, such as an aggressive blink underneath the Tempests.
What they should do with the Disruptor is make it move relatively slowly. That way, it can't keep up with a full speed Stalker ball, requiring either the Stalkers move at the speed of the Disruptors to protect them, or split the Stalkers off in order to go attack a base or another target of opportunity.
This also opens up the possibility of using a Warp Prism to dramatically increase the mobility of a Disruptor, while also protecting it from enemy Disruptor shots. Combined with the ability to pick up a Disruptor from a distance, the Warp Prism+Disruptor combo is a bit like a Shuttle+Reaver, but has more micro potential.
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Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up?
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On December 01 2015 03:20 WrathSCII wrote:
Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up?
I'm never a fan of mech in SC2 but I am sure some people were probably upset by it.
The problem is in TvT Medivac-Tank means that positioning is not important.
in TvZ ravager is really good vs mech
Finally I think the economy changes make mech a lot harder, mech worked by turtling on 3 base, this isn't possible and I imagine it is hard for a mech player to secure a 4th base on any map.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 01 2015 03:20 WrathSCII wrote:
Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up?
It's too slow, and with the accelerated game pace, mobility and speed is the name of the game.
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Personally i´m worried about ling/bling/muta not seeming to be that viable in Lotv.
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On December 01 2015 03:58 PepperMintTea wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 03:20 WrathSCII wrote:
Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up? Finally I think the economy changes make mech a lot harder, mech worked by turtling on 3 base, this isn't possible and I imagine it is hard for a mech player to secure a 4th base on any map.
Thats not what mech was about, some players did it but there was more to mech than just "turtling in 3 base"
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On December 01 2015 04:21 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 03:58 PepperMintTea wrote:On December 01 2015 03:20 WrathSCII wrote:
Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up? Finally I think the economy changes make mech a lot harder, mech worked by turtling on 3 base, this isn't possible and I imagine it is hard for a mech player to secure a 4th base on any map. Thats not what mech was about, some players did it but there was more to mech than just "turtling in 3 base"
That´s what mech usually was at the pro level.
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On December 01 2015 04:21 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 03:58 PepperMintTea wrote:On December 01 2015 03:20 WrathSCII wrote:
Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up? Finally I think the economy changes make mech a lot harder, mech worked by turtling on 3 base, this isn't possible and I imagine it is hard for a mech player to secure a 4th base on any map. Thats not what mech was about, some players did it but there was more to mech than just "turtling in 3 base"
ok I never played TvT but the majority of the time when I faced mech in TvZ the mech Terran player would secure 3 bases and then turtle to a max army before moving out. occasionally harassing with helions
There are other styles that were heavy hellion/hellbat, thor. banshee but I don't think that is what people would label as "mech"
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On December 01 2015 04:35 PepperMintTea wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 04:21 Lexender wrote:On December 01 2015 03:58 PepperMintTea wrote:On December 01 2015 03:20 WrathSCII wrote:
Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up? Finally I think the economy changes make mech a lot harder, mech worked by turtling on 3 base, this isn't possible and I imagine it is hard for a mech player to secure a 4th base on any map. Thats not what mech was about, some players did it but there was more to mech than just "turtling in 3 base" ok I never played TvT but the majority of the time when I faced mech in TvZ the mech Terran player would secure 3 bases and then turtle to a max army before moving out. occasionally harassing with helions There are other styles that were heavy hellion/hellbat, thor. banshee but I don't think that is what people would label as "mech"
The problem is that there is a huge difference between what people think mech should be and what mech has actually been in SC2.
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Fucking nomenclature debates.
This "mech" "not mech" business is getting to "Communism" "not actually Communism" levels bad.
Can TL tech wizards give us a hand? We need like a popup window or something.
"I see that you would like to discuss mech in SC2. Do you mean positional!mech or turtle!mech?"
Some of us still want the promised land glimpsed by ForGG.
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On December 01 2015 04:00 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 03:20 WrathSCII wrote:
Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up? It's too slow, and with the accelerated game pace, mobility and speed is the name of the game.
It's also too slow to build up. Not just that, it's expensive but the amount of money per base is reduced. Plus new and effective counter play to mech was added (ravager, parasitic bomb, tankivac), which means you will trade more. But you'll never keep up in reproducing.
Not to mention in TvZ the threat of broodlord/viper without good ground to air just kills mech dead.
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As a mech player, mech has been largely turtling and trying to survive in SC2. Sure sometimes someone does a timing attack, but if that does not outright win you the game you can directly quit, and in general it does not. As long as it is this turtling though it will never be that viable at high level, so why not just boost it so we can at least do that, since it won't upset balance. But there is a difference between mech not being really viable, and mech being nerfed into the ground, yet again. And thats the state vs protoss. Versus zerg I would say it is a bit better, but mainly because I include sky terran then with mech.
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On November 29 2015 06:38 Silver777 wrote:
I feel DH really showed a few things.
1. The maps used were clearly imbalanced and there should never be "free" gold bases, but everyone already knew this.
2. Coinciding with point 1, Zergs were playing EXTREMELY greedy all tournament long...for seemingly no reason as they seemingly had a much stronger early/mid/late game. Like if a zerg builds a roach warren and shows a few ravagers, protoss/terran must respect it and the attack potential. For the most part zergs played as greedy as possible and tried to get to some specific tech/insane economy as if they were on a timer, when their opponents had the timer. For me a clear example of the safer zerg play was the one non-finals Solar vs Parting(i think) game where solar opened with the ling drop into a few roaches into mutas. Basically harassing parting early then forcing units to be built and disruptor tech with roaches (thus slowing this tech/infrastructure), then finally switching to Mutas to counter the disruptor path and harass.
3. Most protoss/terran pretty much decided to all-in or cheese zerg all tournament long because of points 1 and 2.
4. Pretty much all P match-ups revolve around the disruptor after early game. Most terrans were used to splitting MM from banelings, but zergs had no clue how to split units well or position lurkers well. Once zerg fix that I am curious how useful disruptors will be. Also a lot of zergs were poor at tech switching against disruptors. When the protoss has 5+ disruptors...why are you continuing to make roaches and hydras for 5-10 mins?
5. Ravagers are really good, but spamming 10 corrosive biles all at the same time, let alone onto 1 spot is not. Nor is walking your roaches ONTO your own corrosive biles, which happened quite a lot. Once zergs get better at ravager usage...well if the unit wasn't good enough already.
Very good analysis especially 4. and 5.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 01 2015 04:49 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 04:00 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2015 03:20 WrathSCII wrote:
Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up? It's too slow, and with the accelerated game pace, mobility and speed is the name of the game. It's also too slow to build up. Not just that, it's expensive but the amount of money per base is reduced. Plus new and effective counter play to mech was added (ravager, parasitic bomb, tankivac), which means you will trade more. But you'll never keep up in reproducing. Not to mention in TvZ the threat of broodlord/viper without good ground to air just kills mech dead.
That isn't an inherent problem, if you can take efficient trades the resource and build speed isn't inherently problematic or limiting, it's the fact that it's too immobile and can't protect the expansions you are forced to take, and enemy forces are too fast. Base trading is a powerful tactic in sc2, and that shuts down immobile armies pretty hard.
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On December 01 2015 04:00 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 03:20 WrathSCII wrote:
Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up? It's too slow, and with the accelerated game pace, mobility and speed is the name of the game.
Are you saying that
1) TvT won't ever see pure mech being viable again
And
2) Tanks wouldn't even be viable in TvT now without Tankivacs?
So far as I can tell, both have to be true in order for your analysis of mech's theoretical chances to be right.
And I very much doubt both of those things.
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On December 01 2015 04:42 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 04:35 PepperMintTea wrote:On December 01 2015 04:21 Lexender wrote:On December 01 2015 03:58 PepperMintTea wrote:On December 01 2015 03:20 WrathSCII wrote:
Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up? Finally I think the economy changes make mech a lot harder, mech worked by turtling on 3 base, this isn't possible and I imagine it is hard for a mech player to secure a 4th base on any map. Thats not what mech was about, some players did it but there was more to mech than just "turtling in 3 base" ok I never played TvT but the majority of the time when I faced mech in TvZ the mech Terran player would secure 3 bases and then turtle to a max army before moving out. occasionally harassing with helions There are other styles that were heavy hellion/hellbat, thor. banshee but I don't think that is what people would label as "mech" The problem is that there is a huge difference between what people think mech should be and what mech has actually been in SC2.
Mech was awesome in SC2. Only in TvZ there were problems and that was due to the Raven and SH. Outside of that, mech vs bio and mech vs mech made for some of the best games in SC2.
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EPT
