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United States7483 Posts
On December 01 2015 05:21 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 04:00 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2015 03:20 WrathSCII wrote:
Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up? It's too slow, and with the accelerated game pace, mobility and speed is the name of the game. Are you saying that 1) TvT won't ever see pure mech being viable again And 2) Tanks wouldn't even be viable in TvT now without Tankivacs? So far as I can tell, both have to be true in order for your analysis of mech's theoretical chances to be right. And I very much doubt both of those things.
TvT will be the only match that might see pure mech, and only on maps which are designed for it to flourish well. Further, I generally think that even on maps which are good for tank play, bio/tank is better than pure mech.
And tanks would not be very good now without medivac pick ups. So much else has gotten faster.
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The thing about TvT is it doesn't even matter how shit the tank is because the other guy has the same tanks you do. They need to buff the Siege Tank. And they really need to do something about the air blobs for all races.
Ground warfare is inherently more interesting than seeing two giant air blobs collide. There's terrain. There's concaves and unit collisions. Air blobs literally do not care about anything except how many units there are, and everybody can always shoot.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 01 2015 06:26 ledarsi wrote:
The thing about TvT is it doesn't even matter how shit the tank is because the other guy has the same tanks you do. They need to buff the Siege Tank. And they really need to do something about the air blobs for all races.
Ground warfare is inherently more interesting than seeing two giant air blobs collide. There's terrain. There's concaves and unit collisions. Air blobs literally do not care about anything except how many units there are, and everybody can always shoot.
It's not that they need to buff the siege tank, they need to slow the game down in some areas. The tank is a unit that isn't designed for the game Starcraft has become.
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I disagree. If the tank were effective at zoning the enemy while sieged, then you just need to protect it because it will be very vulnerable while it relocates.
The Disruptor is a good example of how powerful zoning can be, however the Disruptor is actually quite a mobile unit, so it has this area of influence around itself that depends on how quickly it can get a shot there.
The Siege Tank could be a very useful unit if it were as effective at zoning as the Disruptor is. The obvious disadvantage is that you can't quickly relocate it, run away, or chase. There is this hard line at the edge of its range that the enemy can sit just beyond with impunity.
The Disruptor and the Siege Tank are even pretty close in unit cost and tech level. But the Disruptor's attack is actually powerful enough to get the enemy to back away.
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On December 01 2015 06:31 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 06:26 ledarsi wrote:
The thing about TvT is it doesn't even matter how shit the tank is because the other guy has the same tanks you do. They need to buff the Siege Tank. And they really need to do something about the air blobs for all races.
Ground warfare is inherently more interesting than seeing two giant air blobs collide. There's terrain. There's concaves and unit collisions. Air blobs literally do not care about anything except how many units there are, and everybody can always shoot. It's not that they need to buff the siege tank, they need to slow the game down in some areas. The tank is a unit that isn't designed for the game Starcraft has become.
To do that economy has to change. And David Kim made it clear that he prefers to die than changing it.
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United States15275 Posts
On December 01 2015 06:35 ledarsi wrote:
I disagree. If the tank were effective at zoning the enemy while sieged, then you just need to protect it because it will be very vulnerable while it relocates.
The Disruptor is a good example of how powerful zoning can be, however the Disruptor is actually quite a mobile unit, so it has this area of influence around itself that depends on how quickly it can get a shot there.
The Siege Tank could be a very useful unit if it were as effective at zoning as the Disruptor is. The obvious disadvantage is that you can't quickly relocate it, run away, or chase. There is this hard line at the edge of its range that the enemy can sit just beyond with impunity.
The Disruptor and the Siege Tank are even pretty close in unit cost and tech level. But the Disruptor's attack is actually powerful enough to get the enemy to back away.
And that's the fundamental problem of the Disruptor. It has the qualities of a siege unit without the immobility that typically limits it from being too strong. Because of that, it dictates almost all decision-making in a standard fight.
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I know snute brought this up but I would like a high level discussion about energy vs cooldown. Getting the perspective of the top minds in the scene. If this has already been done then I apologise and if someone is kind enough then provide a link.
The more I think about it the more I dislike cooldown and I think Energy based spells give a more dynamic/decision making side to the game.
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The biggest difference is that having energy makes a unit vulnerable to specific spells like Feedback and EMP. You can easily calibrate spell costs or energy regeneration rate to make the ability cooldown whatever you like, and allow or prohibit whatever extent of chain casting you want.
I think cooldown is simpler, and more in keeping with the type of counter relationships the Disruptor should have. I think it makes more sense to add counterplay such as having Force Field block the shot than allowing High Templar to hard counter them with Feedback.
I would very much like to see Disruptors have a quite slow move speed, meaning Stalkers may have to leave them behind to get somewhere in a hurry, and possibly making players pre-split their Disruptors, perhaps across the map or in a siege line, instead of keeping a big ball of Stalker+Disruptor. It also means there is a possible reason to put Disruptors in Warp Prisms to move them quickly.
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On December 01 2015 06:42 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 06:35 ledarsi wrote:
I disagree. If the tank were effective at zoning the enemy while sieged, then you just need to protect it because it will be very vulnerable while it relocates.
The Disruptor is a good example of how powerful zoning can be, however the Disruptor is actually quite a mobile unit, so it has this area of influence around itself that depends on how quickly it can get a shot there.
The Siege Tank could be a very useful unit if it were as effective at zoning as the Disruptor is. The obvious disadvantage is that you can't quickly relocate it, run away, or chase. There is this hard line at the edge of its range that the enemy can sit just beyond with impunity.
The Disruptor and the Siege Tank are even pretty close in unit cost and tech level. But the Disruptor's attack is actually powerful enough to get the enemy to back away. And that's the fundamental problem of the Disruptor. It has the qualities of a siege unit without the immobility that typically limits it from being too strong. Because of that, it dictates almost all decision-making in a standard fight.
It has other problems that not all other siege units have: The projectile needs to be microed. Perfect opponent micro means it deals no damage at all. Its fucking expensive. The rate of fire is even lower than the rest.
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On December 01 2015 07:27 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 06:42 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 01 2015 06:35 ledarsi wrote:
I disagree. If the tank were effective at zoning the enemy while sieged, then you just need to protect it because it will be very vulnerable while it relocates.
The Disruptor is a good example of how powerful zoning can be, however the Disruptor is actually quite a mobile unit, so it has this area of influence around itself that depends on how quickly it can get a shot there.
The Siege Tank could be a very useful unit if it were as effective at zoning as the Disruptor is. The obvious disadvantage is that you can't quickly relocate it, run away, or chase. There is this hard line at the edge of its range that the enemy can sit just beyond with impunity.
The Disruptor and the Siege Tank are even pretty close in unit cost and tech level. But the Disruptor's attack is actually powerful enough to get the enemy to back away. And that's the fundamental problem of the Disruptor. It has the qualities of a siege unit without the immobility that typically limits it from being too strong. Because of that, it dictates almost all decision-making in a standard fight. It has other problems that not all other siege units have: The projectile needs to be microed. Perfect opponent micro means it deals no damage at all. Its fucking expensive. The rate of fire is even lower than the rest.
it's not expensive. 150/150 isn't expensive in sc2.
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On December 01 2015 07:29 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 07:27 Salteador Neo wrote:On December 01 2015 06:42 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 01 2015 06:35 ledarsi wrote:
I disagree. If the tank were effective at zoning the enemy while sieged, then you just need to protect it because it will be very vulnerable while it relocates.
The Disruptor is a good example of how powerful zoning can be, however the Disruptor is actually quite a mobile unit, so it has this area of influence around itself that depends on how quickly it can get a shot there.
The Siege Tank could be a very useful unit if it were as effective at zoning as the Disruptor is. The obvious disadvantage is that you can't quickly relocate it, run away, or chase. There is this hard line at the edge of its range that the enemy can sit just beyond with impunity.
The Disruptor and the Siege Tank are even pretty close in unit cost and tech level. But the Disruptor's attack is actually powerful enough to get the enemy to back away. And that's the fundamental problem of the Disruptor. It has the qualities of a siege unit without the immobility that typically limits it from being too strong. Because of that, it dictates almost all decision-making in a standard fight. It has other problems that not all other siege units have: The projectile needs to be microed. Perfect opponent micro means it deals no damage at all. Its fucking expensive. The rate of fire is even lower than the rest. it's not expensive. 150/150 isn't expensive in sc2.
Only 25 more gas than a siege tank, and it can be chrono'd.
I do think Siege Tanks need either a gas cost reduction to 75 or 100 (to make up for their reduced effectiveness) or their damage buffed to bring value to its cost.
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Making tanks cost 2 supply and 75 gas is an interesting idea, and a different approach from just increasing its damage so it is worth being 3 supply and 125 gas. Could work.
But if you just made the tank cost 100 gas, or even 75 gas, that is just not enough. Needs a supply cost reduction, or a damage increase. Possibly both. It's the least mobile unit in a very fast-paced game, and there are countless ways to play around it, or to outmaneuver it.
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Well im seeing more tanks than in Hots in PvT.. IDK about pro level since we don't saw much T in the DH..
Although to me the game don't feel so much faster,i mean mines in a mineral line, a zergling run-by not stopped by a zealot warp/"supply move", a prism/toss army forcefielding your base from inside with your army outside were all things happening fast and considered big mistakes that could cost you the game no matter the littles advantages you took in the past .
Sure more workers and less minerals somehow speed up the game but not in the same meaning for me. (and this is a sucess for me,making the game much more interessting)
I think the tankivac is here to allow the tank to adapt to the pace of the game x) ! Only things that im surprised people don't complain about is that prism can handle 2 Disruptor. I think mb the disruptor should cost 6 places so u can take 1 + another unit but not 2. The tank is immobile in siege mode,but movespeed in normal mode is decent,and i feel like a slower disruptor will just be too much, they get sniped easily enough in fight once they shot, and the time required to pass through the map in case you need to push without prism will just be insane (oh yes reaver was slow,but the damage was almost always dealt,and he shot often,plus i'm not a big fan of this game anyways)
However,this give me an idea of a version of the disruptor that could be even more close to the tank with a siege mode.Like good movespeed but only shoot in siege mode,everything would need a tweaking of course (before people start to crying and say im trying to buff my race and that Mcore should not exist and such B***)
And tanks already are making players backwards, i mean if the player can a-move through a line of tanks and win,well he deserve to.
Maybe in TvT Tanks are'nt doing this as great as before, but this is due to tankivas (since drops already exist before) and so the only solution to get a tank zoning so hard is deleting the tankivac, thing that is'nt a good idea to me. I have to see more of Tanks Marines mirror pro fight to really have an opinion if the zoning power of the tank is really that weak now.
edit : wow so now this is going into "We need to buff the tank!" .. While i say in this in post as a P i found a lot more player using the tanks in LotV than in Hots... Don't know why he should get buffed now just on a theorycraft.......
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On December 01 2015 07:29 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 07:27 Salteador Neo wrote:On December 01 2015 06:42 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 01 2015 06:35 ledarsi wrote:
I disagree. If the tank were effective at zoning the enemy while sieged, then you just need to protect it because it will be very vulnerable while it relocates.
The Disruptor is a good example of how powerful zoning can be, however the Disruptor is actually quite a mobile unit, so it has this area of influence around itself that depends on how quickly it can get a shot there.
The Siege Tank could be a very useful unit if it were as effective at zoning as the Disruptor is. The obvious disadvantage is that you can't quickly relocate it, run away, or chase. There is this hard line at the edge of its range that the enemy can sit just beyond with impunity.
The Disruptor and the Siege Tank are even pretty close in unit cost and tech level. But the Disruptor's attack is actually powerful enough to get the enemy to back away. And that's the fundamental problem of the Disruptor. It has the qualities of a siege unit without the immobility that typically limits it from being too strong. Because of that, it dictates almost all decision-making in a standard fight. It has other problems that not all other siege units have: The projectile needs to be microed. Perfect opponent micro means it deals no damage at all. Its fucking expensive. The rate of fire is even lower than the rest. it's not expensive. 150/150 isn't expensive in sc2.
Wasn't it something like 150/300 earlier in the beta ?
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On December 01 2015 06:42 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 06:35 ledarsi wrote:
I disagree. If the tank were effective at zoning the enemy while sieged, then you just need to protect it because it will be very vulnerable while it relocates.
The Disruptor is a good example of how powerful zoning can be, however the Disruptor is actually quite a mobile unit, so it has this area of influence around itself that depends on how quickly it can get a shot there.
The Siege Tank could be a very useful unit if it were as effective at zoning as the Disruptor is. The obvious disadvantage is that you can't quickly relocate it, run away, or chase. There is this hard line at the edge of its range that the enemy can sit just beyond with impunity.
The Disruptor and the Siege Tank are even pretty close in unit cost and tech level. But the Disruptor's attack is actually powerful enough to get the enemy to back away. And that's the fundamental problem of the Disruptor. It has the qualities of a siege unit without the immobility that typically limits it from being too strong. Because of that, it dictates almost all decision-making in a standard fight.
The weakness is that you have to micro each individual shot yourself during its full duration.
I think this mechanic creates pretty much all the problems with the unit tbh
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Oh woe is me I have to micro the shot that kills 12 Stalkers in one go. What ever shall the poor Protoss do?
Seriously, the Disruptor is an extremely powerful unit. Saying you have to micro the shot is its downside is asinine. A better way to state that is that you get to micro the shot so you can do the most damage possible.
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On December 01 2015 06:07 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 05:21 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 01 2015 04:00 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2015 03:20 WrathSCII wrote:
Since this thread is a review for all DH not just Disruptor PvP stalemate, anyone else was bothered that Mech was pretty non-existent in any match up? It's too slow, and with the accelerated game pace, mobility and speed is the name of the game. Are you saying that 1) TvT won't ever see pure mech being viable again And 2) Tanks wouldn't even be viable in TvT now without Tankivacs? So far as I can tell, both have to be true in order for your analysis of mech's theoretical chances to be right. And I very much doubt both of those things. TvT will be the only match that might see pure mech, and only on maps which are designed for it to flourish well.
You say "only," but pure, positional mech being playable in TvT is not insignificant.
It means that nothing fundamentally stops mech from being viable in a game like SC2. If it doesn't work in TvZ or TvP, then there is a problem related to the units and abilities of those MUs. Alter the units and abilities available in those MUs, and presto, positional mech is entirely a thing across the board.
I know that you have separate concerns about the game being too fast, but 1) I'm not convinced they're not premature, and 2) as long as positional mech is even semi-viable in TvT, there are other things we can fix besides game speed in the problem matchups.
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On December 01 2015 08:00 pure.Wasted wrote:
It means that nothing fundamentally stops mech from being viable in a game like SC2. If it doesn't work in TvZ or TvP, then there is a problem related to the units and abilities of those MUs. Alter the units and abilities available in those MUs, and presto, positional mech is entirely a thing across the board.
I can tell you exactly what the critical difference is. In TvT the Siege Tank kills Terran units in relatively few shots. It takes way more shots to kill the units of either Protoss or Zerg.
Marine has 45 HP (55 with combat shield). Tank does 35 (+15 Armored) damage. Therefore, Siege Tank kills marine in 2 shots.
Zealot has 150 total HP. Tank does 35 (+15 Armored) damage. Therefore Siege Tank kills zealot in 5 shots. Not to mention Zealots can get Charge which means they spend relatively little time in the Siege Tank's firing solution before they close to range.
Add to this the existence of quite severe hard counter units like Immortals, Tempests, and softer counters like Adept phasing inside minimum range and Blink Stalkers, as well as the possibility of hard air transitions which the Factory can build nothing to stop.
In BW the Siege Tank had very high damage and a slow rate of fire, making it better suited against the high-HP Protoss units than against the very numerous, low-HP Zerg swarm. Except Lurkers, because they eat marines for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and tanks outrange lurkers.
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On December 01 2015 07:58 ledarsi wrote:
Oh woe is me I have to micro the shot that kills 12 Stalkers in one go. What ever shall the poor Protoss do?
Seriously, the Disruptor is an extremely powerful unit. Saying you have to micro the shot is its downside is asinine.
You don't seem to get the point.
The disruptor is the only unit which works like that in sc2.
You micro the attack of it, until it explodes. Other siege units are simply put somewhere and do their job. ANY unit is simply put somewhere and does its job.
The disruptor basically is a caster type unit, the difference here is that every other caster has an immediate effect on something, the disruptor shot has to be microed till it explodes. You can't just 'amove' it (well you can somewhat, just move it in the direction of the enemy and you "zone" like that) and hope it works.
I dislike this mechanic quite a lot actually, it doesn't belong in a game where you control big armies, have to macro, etc
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On December 01 2015 08:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 07:58 ledarsi wrote:
Oh woe is me I have to micro the shot that kills 12 Stalkers in one go. What ever shall the poor Protoss do?
Seriously, the Disruptor is an extremely powerful unit. Saying you have to micro the shot is its downside is asinine. You don't seem to get the point. The disruptor is the only unit which works like that in sc2. You micro the attack of it, until it explodes.
Banelings?
The Disruptor is an inexhaustible factory of free, invincible, superspeed Banelings that phase through units and force fields, and deal 145 (+55 Shield) damage in a larger blast radius, instead of the Baneling's 20 (+15 Light) damage.
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EPT
