The memories, man, the memories. The great thing about BW (and any game with staying power) is that old memories last, new ones are created, and all of them shape the game. There were a lot of great rivalries in Brood War. In terms of just TvZ, there were some outstanding ones that followed on the heels of BoxeR-YellOw: oov and July, NaDa and sAviOr, among others, and, of course, Flash and Jaedong. Each subsequent rivalry took the game to greater heights. But BoxeR-YellOw has ascendancy in BW (and perhaps gaming) for a reason. A career is defined by one's opponents and, especially, rivals. But reading that interview it's like those two not only let the rivalry define their gaming career, but took the synergy of that gaming bond into their lives outside the game.
The genius related question in a nutshell is basically that fans wanted to see Boxer faceoff against Yellow to which both replied more or less that it was regretful that they didn't face off during a deathmatch during the episodes.
Thanks for the interview, really interesting responses from both of them; it's nice to see that they're both doing well - I'm especially hopeful Yellow can keep his TV-appearance thing going. I also enjoyed watching some of those old BW vids, I wasn't into SC at that point so it was neat to actually see them.
It's weird to think that most people from other esport games don't know the name BoXeR, hopefully this will be taught in primary school history lessons in the future
On November 16 2015 10:29 DCStarcraftGall wrote: Q. (to YellOw) June 20, 2009, the team is losing 2:0 with The Revolutionist Protoss Bisu as the opponent. The odds were stacked, but you showed the non believers with your first victory in 735 days. YellOw: Many people cheered me on and I was so grateful for my fans. It was the bottom of my slump. After going into Air force ACE as my military service, I had to admit my style of playing Zerg was losing its merit. I was practicing a more greedy style, but I always had one or two mistakes and lost. I was mad at myself. I never did well during practice and I also didn’t believe I could beat the strongest protoss in his favorite matchup. While people cheered for me, I knew that nobody really expected me to win, so I just said ‘heck, let’s do it’ and went back to my old style. I wanted to show them- while skill and physical is important in Starcraft, it can be overcome through experience. BoxeR: It’s a thought that I just had after listening to YellOw, but a lot of stylish players disappeared from the game scene with the introduction of optimized builds. If a player sets the meta, everyone follows him after looking at his replay. The problem with this is that the meta makes all the maps look alike and the games begin to look similar. I think it all started with the replay system. I think a ‘pro’ should have his or her own style and view of the game, and their styles should be the weapon, but everybody just follows a player when he painstakingly makes a new build after watching his replay. As this continues on, more players don’t care about making up new builds, but just focus on optimizing ones that already exist, down to the last second. I want to suggest to Blizzard that Replays should be more secluded on who gets to view them. Maybe just observers, or players on your friends list. I think the game would be much more enjoyable to watch if there was a personal twist for each progamer. YellOw: I agree with BoxeR. I think too much luxury ends up biting back in the end. While the general community needs replays to improve, I feel there has to be a bigger skill gap between the pros and amateurs for the fans to go crazy during big plays and amazing builds.
For me, this was the most interesting part of the interview. I'm not sure if extremely limiting access to replays would completely eliminate people observing and copying an optimized build. It would definitely slow down that process, but I think it would still happen.
That said, the phenomenon of everyone else copying an optimized build (and optimizing it further), is what initially dampened my amazement when I found out about pro Brood War (around January of 2011). SC2 seemed to go the same way for me as well. All the games seemed so similar, and it definitely felt stale from a viewing standpoint. But having recently (in the last month and a half) put genuine effort into 1v1 Brood War ladder, and practicing some of these builds, I get a very real sense of how much effort and time (oh god, the countless hours) the pros must've put in in order to realize all of these builds. Within the optimized builds though, are nuances that I feel are where the pros still display that skill and knowledge gap.
I often heard the following:
(1) If FanTaSy was about to play (espcially versus a Protoss), you could be sure that you'd see relentless vulture movement and harrassment. (2) If JangBi was playing, and the game progressed into the middle and late stages, you were pretty much guaranteed to see a series of psionic storms during major battles. (3) If Kwanro was playing, you knew that you'd see very aggressive zergling play. (4) Leta vs Zerg? A well-executed 2 port wraith. (5) Bisu vs Zerg? A high chance of some very exact timing and use of Dark Templars. (6) Was free playing vs Terran? Just watch how and when he engaged tank lines with just Zealot-Dragoon throughout the entirety of the mid-game phase. (7) If Jaedong was playing, there was always the potential of him picking apart his opponent with expertly controlled Zerglings or Mutas, or he'd see/sense some weakness and just end the game with a sudden swell of units.
I'm sure there are many more examples that could be added to this list by those who followed the game since the early days.
FlaSh seems to be the one player that didn't have a distinct characteristic. Again, I'm speaking out of ignorance, but from what has been said by people who followed the scene through FlaSh's dominance, and from the few VODs of FlaSh's "amazing" games that I've watched, he seemed to just know the game and know what was the best/correct choice based on the state of the game. It seemed like he would rarely show fantastic micro play, but instead he would have everything accounted for, he'd know when he could have a possible timing, and he'd also know what the opponent should have in a given situation that would prevent FlaSh from achieving a certain objective (expand/advance/snipe a building or unit). If the opponent didn't have whatever it was, then FlaSh would calmly cross that objective off the list and proceed to the next objective.
I guess what all this boils down to, is that the game got so figured out, that it became somewhat more difficult to capture the attention of new viewers. For those who followed the game over the years, and for those who play it often and are trying to optimize their own play, watching the pros play is that much more interesting. How well is he hitting the timings? How close to perfect is he executing this build? At what point is there a small deviation? And why does he deviate? How does he engage and fight during battles?
I, and I'm sure others here, would appreciate it if someone with first hand knowledge of the scene and the evolution of the matchups could give their thoughts on player styles and optimized builds.
On November 16 2015 11:36 BLinD-RawR wrote: Great interview and great translation, Thank you!
Q. (to YellOw) June 20, 2009, the team is losing 2:0 with The Revolutionist Protoss Bisu as the opponent. The odds were stacked, but you showed the non believers with your first victory in 735 days. YellOw: Many people cheered me on and I was so grateful for my fans. It was the bottom of my slump. After going into Air force ACE as my military service, I had to admit my style of playing Zerg was losing its merit. I was practicing a more greedy style, but I always had one or two mistakes and lost. I was mad at myself. I never did well during practice and I also didn’t believe I could beat the strongest protoss in his favorite matchup. While people cheered for me, I knew that nobody really expected me to win, so I just said ‘heck, let’s do it’ and went back to my old style. I wanted to show them- while skill and physical is important in Starcraft, it can be overcome through experience.
I love linking the subbed version of this game.
Wow. First time seeing this match. The feels
Continue the nostalgia. JulyZerg is playing in the VANT Starleague and advanced to the ro16 through qualifiers and group stages! It's rather exciting!
Fantastic read thanks again for the vod, rewatch it was so nice.
I also share the opinion of boxer with the replay, replays brought a completly new era on Starcraft. Before build order was secret, and the optimisation was house made... Now its different
EPT
