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On November 03 2015 02:43 sd_andeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 02:41 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote:
This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards:
- He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot.
- It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember.
- We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup. The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy. I don't really like this post. A simple cheese from a player like Life isn't the same as a cheese from a random zerg in diamond league. It's perfectly okay to die to cheeses from Life. Not caring about it, the tournament or HOTS is the problem.
Yes, Parting, Stats, Zest all died to such builds from Life lately. SC2 has always been like that, sometimes you just die to the very strong coinflip nature of the game and facing the best at it doesn't help to begin with.
Also Korean Teams not paying their players well is a different discussion entirely.
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On November 03 2015 02:43 sd_andeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 02:41 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote:
This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards:
- He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot.
- It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember.
- We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup. The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy. I don't really like this post. A simple cheese from a player like Life isn't the same as a cheese from a random zerg in diamond league. It's perfectly okay to die to cheeses from Life. Not caring about it, the tournament or HOTS is the problem.
Yeah,mine plus your point makes the whole thing even worse. Its just so sad, getting hyped the whole year and watching the top 16 constantly evolving, just to get such a situation.
Thank god, the other games were quite ok.
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On November 03 2015 02:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 02:41 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote:
This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards:
- He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot.
- It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember.
- We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup. The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy. No you're missing the point. And it's really not the right time to complain about WCS level, because another WCS champion eliminated a two times SSL finalist and the last one gave a run for his money to a GSL champion ; hell, he would even have probably eliminated him if he didn't change that rally point on Coda.
I mean...still. The fact that he scouted the cheese and didn't react to it and expected a macro game from LIFE is just lol-worthy.
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On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote:
This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Wow, wow, wow, you are so incredibly defensive towards a player who just shat on the community which is rooting for him. He f*cked up and he deserves every single bit of critisism posted here.
-He should have give up his spot to someone who deserved it?
No he should not. You are right on that part, but when commiting to comming to a 5k entryreward tournament, you are supposed to come well prepared. You are supposed to deliver to the fans and to put up atleast a decent fight. If you lack motivation and mentallity to do so? Yes right then you should keep the honor to yourself and forfeit in advance.
It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember.
It is not shameful to lose against a cheese once. It is not shamefull to lose against a cheese twice, but losing three times against a player so well known for his cheeses is just unacceptable, but forgivable. Stating that you don't give a damn about the tourney as a whole and rather just focus on LOTV and then going out 3-0 in 21 minutes is shamefull.
We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
Remember when a certain player proberushed his opponent because he thought the system was sh1t? Yes, that guy. He got completely crushed by the community for what he did. People called him unrespectful and basically never forgave him until the end of his career. People can act unrespectful in the moment (by posting twitter), but you are noway going to tell me that ESL only recoreded those interviews a day beforehand. The reason why a | certain player" probe rushed was because he thought the system sucked and the game didn't matter to him. The reason why this player gave away what could be described as a complete walkover is because he didn't care.
If a Football player is great at Rugby as well, but he has a World Cup in Football comming, you cannot waste time on training Rugby, comming ill-prepared to the World Cup... Because you had to train for a Rugby Tournament happening in 5 months...
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8751 Posts
On November 03 2015 02:30 sd_andeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 02:21 NonY wrote:On November 03 2015 02:00 sd_andeh wrote:I would like to quote Chuddinater, KeSPA representative (perhaps this could be added to OP even); "If western players have that kind of mentality then they have no idea what being a progamer means. Korean players in SC2 and LoL understand the burden of taking on the title of progamer and will practice and play their hearts out to honor that title. Lilbow is a disgrace to everyone in the world that poured their heart and soul into e-Sports. Not just the players, but every single person that makes e-Sports possible and helped grow it to where it is right now." Read his post here; https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/3r51gs/this_is_why_foreigners_will_always_be_foreigners/cwldhlg Pretty ridiculous stance there. And really funny that he goes to reddit of all places to take the high road on what it means to be a progamer. Giving Lilbow shit for performing poorly is not justice. I'm sure Life was thinking "hahaha thanks for the free wins" and not all this high-minded bullshit. And I'm sure Chuddinater does not speak for the community, even if he likes to do so and the community tolerates him doing so, but is it not obvious that if you feel compelled to say the things Chuddinater said then it's not true that those things are actually being practiced? A progaming community truly dedicated to playing well and giving it their best is not stopping to think, and especially not stopping to say, bullshit like that. Hey Tyler, I definitely agree that it's weird that Chuddinater would go to reddit with such criticism, but you can't deny the fact that he actually has a point. Lilbow made himself look really unprofessional and disrespected the most beautiful tournament we have in StarCraft. I don't like the generalizing though.
He has to have a point in saying it though. Is he trying to make Lilbow feel bad? Is he trying to make Koreans look better? Why did he feel compelled to say that? Whatever it was, I don't find it consistent with the very philosophy he's espousing. Professionals don't have to go around saying "we're professional" because they just act the way they think is the right way to act and they associate with like-minded people and that's that. There's never any need for public condemnation of people who behave differently and there's never even any desire to do so because that itself isn't professional.
It's funny too because Lilbow has been consistent in saying that he prioritizes LotV and there's a history of KOREAN players making similar decisions, having poor performances in some events because they're prioritizing other events. And that's just accepted as a reality of being a progamer. This has been an ongoing issue forever with KeSPA teams handling a player's preparation time between Proleague and individual leagues. It's also been an issue with how Korean Brood War progamers used to handle their WCG Grand Finals matches. Korea does not have a perfect history of trying their hardest in everything they enter and it's understandable. No need to publicly shit on people for having too much on their plate. It's a mistake that is going to continue happening as long as we have an abundance of events like we do.
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Everyone is only talking about his tweet, but he already said it in the interview before the match:
Before his match against Life, Lilbow said:
To prepare for blizzcon I almost didn't practice at all. Because it's not that I don't take this match seriously, but I think preparing the transition to LotV is more important because I could practice one month to maybe only lose in one best of five
Well... Good luck playing the game at all then.
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On November 03 2015 01:32 Ctone23 wrote:
Lilbow is a WCS Champion, no twitter BM can take that away. He is a young man who in the end made a poor choice of words. That's just it, words...
Look at Life's pre and post game interview. Pre game he says he knows nothing of Lilbow and will simply crush him because he's a foreigner, yet post game he admitted to studying him and planning the all in strategies for each game. Players are full of shit and always looking for the #mindgames.
Twisting his words and pitchforking him as a disrespectful player is utter bullshit. He gave his all this year and deserved his spot. The timing wasn't great with DH winter qualifiers just happening, etc. Let's not crucify this young man for a poor choice of words for attention. He's clearly one of, if not THE best foreigner we have. Let's calm down and wish him well in the future.
It's called smack talking, for entertainment purposes. Parting and sOs did the same with sOs expressing his real opinion in the winners interview just like Life did.
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On November 03 2015 02:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 02:41 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote:
This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards:
- He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot.
- It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember.
- We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup. The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy. No you're missing the point. And it's really not the right time to complain about WCS level, because another WCS champion eliminated a two times SSL finalist and the last one gave a run for his money to a GSL champion ; hell, he would even have probably eliminated him if he didn't change that rally point on Coda.
Not really important, but i don't think Polt changed the rally point at all, the pathign just works out that way there 
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With almost everyone here jumping at Lilbow's throat, allow me to offer my humble thoughts on the matter.
While you guys mostly think Lilbow played unreasonably poorly, I actually disagree. He showed good decision-making, good reaction time & sound mechanics.
Game one came down to Lilbow not accounting for the possibility of Life utilizing his early Extractor (which Lilbow scouted) for pressure. Could Lilbow have gone MSC before tech? Could he have checked if his backrocks were being destroyed? Of course, he could have. Have better and more accomplished players than Lilbow taken a risk and lost sillily? Aye, happens all the time.
Game two, Lilbow misread Life's 13|12 opening and made a fool out of himself scouting for a proxy Hatch which would not make sense for Life to make and which Life would not be able to afford at the time Lilbow scouted for it. Have better and more accomplished players than Lilbow displayed as poor game sense and misread timings resulting in a clowny loss? Aye, that's been known to happen.
Game three, disregarding Lilbow's choice to add a 5th Gateway instead of securing his 2nd Nexus, he played well. Not much else to add.
As for his tweets about not practising HotS and focusing on Legacy of the Void, nothing seems controversial. It's his choice and no-one forces you to cheer for him.
Just my 2 ¢.
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On November 03 2015 02:52 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 02:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 03 2015 02:41 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote:
This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards:
- He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot.
- It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember.
- We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup. The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy. No you're missing the point. And it's really not the right time to complain about WCS level, because another WCS champion eliminated a two times SSL finalist and the last one gave a run for his money to a GSL champion ; hell, he would even have probably eliminated him if he didn't change that rally point on Coda. Not really important, but i don't think Polt changed the rally point at all, the pathign just works out that way there
ah yeah you must be right, I was checking indeed, the rally point was in Rain's base.
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As I see it, Lilbow got EXACTLY what he worked for. I really, really hope he gets to fly high again in LOTV but that attitude was a trainwreck. I understand his decision to focus on the future, but it was simply disrespectful to say and put it in the way he did even BEFORE the match begun. If he accepted his loss and at least tried (or said he tried), he wouldn't be getting all this hate. Instead he opted to say the matches looked bad because "Life wanted them to". No, Life said he studied Lilbow's game and knew he had a greedy early game and went on to punish him for that. Once he saw Lilbow failed to respond, he did it on the other games aswell and we got what we got.
I really hope to see Lilbow learn from that.
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One point I forgot to mention: Most professional SC2 players (let alone the thousands of semi-pros and amateurs) would die for a chance to play a Bo5 against someone like Life.
It's unfortunate that too many so-called "professionals" don't understand that being graceful is an important part of actually being "professional".
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To many quitters in the foreigner scene its as simple as that. Being the best you can be is one thing but to go to the ultimate tournament and not even practice for it is pretty sad. Whats he saving up for in LoTV a head start, because the same players in the last 16 will be right there next year guaranteed.
I hate region locking with a passion and this is the reason why. He basically got a free pass into to the last 16 and didnt even bother to try. I wonder what Hyun is thinking as he was the one whom basically just missed out?
Heres hoping region locking is completely removed next year
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Lol, what a ridiculous mindset. Glad I never cheered for him, else I'd be mad. Honestly, I thought he'd put up a fight, but if he doesn't even try ... That pretty much deserves punishment. If he is a good player I'm sure being a few weeks behind on LotV isn't going to kill him.
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United States23455 Posts
Meh I saw Naniwa enter the IEM WC last year and do what he did. This seems pretty pedestrian in comparison
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On November 03 2015 02:53 RevTiberius wrote:One point I forgot to mention: Most professional SC2 players (let alone the thousands of semi-pros and amateurs) would die for a chance to play a Bo5 against someone like Life. It's unfortunate that too many so-called "professionals" don't understand that being graceful is an important part of actually being "professional". https://twitter.com/RevTiberius/status/661230820925927424
I want to react on that point. I picked up video games at 28. I work as a math teacher, I have a family. I can play maybe 8 hours a week. And the worst thing, I have no talent. I'll always be ridiculously bad at this game.
Still, I sometimes fantasize about being good and being able to play on those stages with that kind of players. It's indeed something I would give up a lot for. To see Lilbow disdainfully shit on that lifetime opportunity was depressing. I felt insulted. If other people don't take the matter as seriously and think I'm being over the top, that's fine. But that's, very sincerely, the way I felt.
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On November 03 2015 02:51 AbouSV wrote:Everyone is only talking about his tweet, but he already said it in the interview before the match: Show nested quote +Before his match against Life, Lilbow said:
To prepare for blizzcon I almost didn't practice at all. Because it's not that I don't take this match seriously, but I think preparing the transition to LotV is more important because I could practice one month to maybe only lose in one best of five Well... Good luck playing the game at all then.
He qualified to DH on the 24th, I wonder how many of those two games took place after that...
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Italy3701 Posts
On November 03 2015 02:31 showstealer1829 wrote:
My point is, not many would have given Polt or Hydra a chance against Rain and Dream. but they didn't stop trying because "I'm not going to win anyway and I want to get ahead in LotV", Again I point out Hydra WON, Polt came within a map of beating Rain, Lilbow embarrassed himself, embarrassed every foreign player who dreams of making it to Blizzcon and then went on social media and did the equivalent of fucking SMILING about it. That's the difference. As I said, it's not a Korean v Foreigner thing, it's a respect thing, Polt and Hydra showed respect, Lilbow somehow showed less than zero.
...I'm totally with you on this: Lilbow's lack of professionalism was embarassing to say the least, second only to NaNiwa's probe rush and tied with Soulkey attitude of some months ago... the excuse immediatly given was even worse: we're not talking here of missing a major invite tournament for training lotv (understandable), it's WCS Global Finals that, in a "romantic way", can easily be seen as the main goal, the dream, of every (pro)player of Starcraft: all the top players of the world sweated their asses off to be there and Lilbow says it's not enough for him to at least give it a try? how modest...
...ofc, I admit that the mountain to climb was ultra-hard (Life is Life no way to easy the way) and he'd probably lost 3-0 the same but this night I saw respect and an amount of training I've rarely seen before from all the players except from this french guy... it doesn't seem to me that Hydra and Polt had easier opponents than Lilbow but they worked super hard and Hydra even managed to beat Dream (not exactly a bad terran right?)... even in the fast 3 games of INnoVation or Rogue you could see how much they trained for this single event and even in the 3 games of ByuL or Zest you surely cannot miss their struggle to fight...
...being in the top 16 of 2015 and going to Blizzcon to act like Lilbow did is, imho, really disrespectful: I never really liked him for his style of play but I never imagined he could be a player with this bad attitude... 
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Let the guy do whatever he wants, if he wants to prepare for LotV, so be it.
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On November 03 2015 02:38 sd_andeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote:
This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards:
- He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot.
- It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember.
- We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup. You misunderstand. Nobody blames or shits on Lilbow for losing to Life. That was expected. It was his statements about not even caring about the tournament that started the shitstorm. Playing 2 games of HOTS the last 3 months to 'prepare' for the single biggest stage he might ever play on.
Ten minutes before Lilbow-Life, Inno said in his interview that he didn't prepare a lot for Blizzcon. Were you offended?
Ten minutes after Lilbow-Life, Rain lost a warp prism in a way that displays he's been playing a lot of LotV. Were you offended?
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