On November 05 2015 09:54 SirPinky wrote: Why do people care so much? He earned the spot; he spent the time and opportunity cost to get to play in the finals. He is a 20 year old with different motivations. It is his own business. If people have this much vested interest in drawing inspiration from a person playing video games, I think they might need to re-evaluate their role models. But that is my own opinion. I get that it is a "let down" but don't make it personal...
Ok, last post in this thread for me:
Literally the only reason progamers exist as a thing is that there are "people with vested interest in drawing inspiration from a person playing video games." Without them there would be no sponsors, no streams, no ad revenue, no competitions, no prize money, no career. When you are a progamer, every penny of the money you receive ultimately comes from the pockets of fans of you and the sport. All sponsorship, all ad revenue, everything - it's contingent upon on those investments being recouped from the fans.
Selfishly disregarding the very people who make your lifestyle possible is not, by any stretch, 'your own business'. You are quite simply not doing the thing that you are being paid to do.
And without those people from which "people with vested interest in draw inspiration from a person playing video games," there would be no fans. It is true that as a pro gamer, the rules that you follow are essentially to respect those who give you that money and status by playing your hardest and not being a jerk.
However, I think that it starts with the players becoming good at a game. People do not want to watch people who are bad at a video game; they want to watch people do really cool things that most people can't do.
So yes, the money comes from the sponsors who recoup it from the fans, but the reason that there are fans in the first place is because of the progamers. It's a circle. The progamers inspire the fans who inspire the sponsors who then pay for the progamers, but without the pros, there are no fans (of watching it) and there are no sponsors.
Let's face it; we would not be fans of multiplayer Starcraft if there were no good players worth watching.
I am not going to read 33 pages, but I got a few comments on this:
1# He won his place and ticket there. 2# Who cares what reason he lost. Being angry that he didn't practice to your standards is not fair. 3# Id he really did not practice, and ended up lied about practicing you would not be as angry with him.
On November 05 2015 09:54 SirPinky wrote: Why do people care so much? He earned the spot; he spent the time and opportunity cost to get to play in the finals. He is a 20 year old with different motivations. It is his own business. If people have this much vested interest in drawing inspiration from a person playing video games, I think they might need to re-evaluate their role models. But that is my own opinion. I get that it is a "let down" but don't make it personal...
Ok, last post in this thread for me:
Literally the only reason progamers exist as a thing is that there are "people with vested interest in drawing inspiration from a person playing video games." Without them there would be no sponsors, no streams, no ad revenue, no competitions, no prize money, no career. When you are a progamer, every penny of the money you receive ultimately comes from the pockets of fans of you and the sport. All sponsorship, all ad revenue, everything - it's contingent upon on those investments being recouped from the fans.
Selfishly disregarding the very people who make your lifestyle possible is not, by any stretch, 'your own business'. You are quite simply not doing the thing that you are being paid to do.
And without those people from which "people with vested interest in draw inspiration from a person playing video games," there would be no fans. It is true that as a pro gamer, the rules that you follow are essentially to respect those who give you that money and status by playing your hardest and not being a jerk.
However, I think that it starts with the players becoming good at a game. People do not want to watch people who are bad at a video game; they want to watch people do really cool things that most people can't do.
So yes, the money comes from the sponsors who recoup it from the fans, but the reason that there are fans in the first place is because of the progamers. It's a circle. The progamers inspire the fans who inspire the sponsors who then pay for the progamers, but without the pros, there are no fans (of watching it) and there are no sponsors.
Let's face it; we would not be fans of multiplayer Starcraft if there were no good players worth watching.
Thanks for both of the replies:
Don't get me wrong, I like to watch streams and competitions like anyone else. But I could care less what these people do on their own time - practice or not. The main objective is to see entertaining games and perhaps new strategies (which no longer exists in HOTS since it's been "figured out"). But the word in my original quote "inspiration" is a strong word. This is a word assigned to a role model or something you aspire "to become". I see this as entertainment: No single progamer leaving the scene has caused massive sponsorships to drop or crippled the industry. There is always someone next in line to take his/her place. So, again, I don't get worked up about some 20 year old guy being apathetic about a gaming event. There are many more people ready to take his place.
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
Correct, he was better than Lilbow because he didn't quit before the event even started
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
There's even more to that story than you just described. And also relevant to the Lilbow discussion
The guy's name was Eric Moussambani. He'd been a swimmer only training in lakes for 9 months. And he didn't even have to swim had he chosen not to, the other two swimmers in his heat were disqualified for false starts so he won by default, but he came out there to swim. So he did, and the crowd fell in love with him for him actually trying
The relevance to Lilbow is this, Eric only got into the Olympic event via a Wildcard , while more talented and deserving swimmers than him stayed at home because they didn't come top 2 in their much tougher selection trials or didn't swim to the qualifying mark the major nations faced and weren't handed a spot on a silver platter by the organisers. And it started a whole controversy about "building the global scene" versus "Having the best people at the biggest event"
Just like a certain French SC2 player got handed a spot at the biggest tournment of the year thanks to a region locked event, while more talented players than him stayed at home because they didn't gain enough points from their much tougher tournaments and they weren't handed a spot on a silver platter by the organisers. Which started a whole debate about "building the global scene" versus "Having the best people at the biggest event".
The difference between the two of course is Moussambani TRIED, he knew he wasn't up to the standard of the more talented swimmers, he wasn't even in the same league as the worse guy but he still went out there and gave it his best, and as such when you mention his name in Sydney, or mention "Eric the Eel" everyone remembers that.
Lilbow basically did what every person who criticized the system wanted Eric to do after the two false starts, left the stage as fast as he could. Then he went on social media and basically said that as well as "LOL thank you for free money". And the worst thing about it is if he performs well at Dreamhack some people will think that he was justified.
Give me a fucking break.
This really sums it up for me. Respect for the game, respect for the fans, respect for the profession. We remember MVP not only cause he won the most championships, but he did it when his body was working against him. That's a true professional.
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
no there isnt to you maybe, but he is behaving like an asshat which is embarrassing to some people
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
no there isnt to you maybe, but he is behaving like an asshat which is embarrassing to some people
And that is his behavior, not his performance. See the analogy is used in a specific conversation. It aims to display that my idea - that "embarrassing games by a foreigner" and "foreigner community being embarrassed" are connected to each other - is wrong. It says, look, this guy produced an embarrassing performance and was applauded for it, therefore you're wrong. Well, no, because none of these guys did embarrassing performances, so there is no equivalency there.
I didn't even bring up that there is no comparison between the two communities in question, as there is no way in hell someone would say "I can't wait to see that guinean guy get raped!" before the competition began, which may be an even stronger counter-argument.
If you choose to be interested in more aspects of SC2 than the games, such as getting to know the personalities and thoughts of the players so that you can judge them according to whatever system of values you have, then you may want to reconsider how productive it is to tell people about it. If you get your jollies from patting each other on the back for all liking a guy for the same reasons, I guess that's fine because at least it's positive, even if it's not productive. But shitting on a guy because he made a different decision than you would, when he's not even in a situation where there's an obvious optimal path that he failed to follow, is not productive and it's not conducive to an enjoyable atmosphere. Analyze the situation, say what you would have done, say why, that's all fine. But at no point has anyone justified saying Lilbow lacks respect, has failed to fulfill his duty, etc, so I don't see why people are saying that shit. Maybe ask yourself if you've really proven it or if you're just projecting your own personal values and not some universal values.
All I could think about when I heard this was...it's fine he wants to get more experience at LotV. But one experience he's never going to get is practicing diligently for one of the best players of all time on the biggest stage of the year. Win or lose that is a learning moment that you need to get better at this game.
How many times has some hot upshot Korean gotten into a tourney only to get trounced by the older player who's been there many times before? The new player without the big huge tournament experience usually loses because just being there is a mind game in itself that they are not prepared for.
The fact that someone who is supposed to be so good at a strategy game can't understand this is mind boggling to me. It's as if some players think all that matters is how good they are at manipulating the game itself and forget that half the game psychological, which includes getting up for fucking Blizzcon. It doesn't matter how many hours of the next expansion you put in, if you don't make the most of your tourney experiences, you will be exploited when it matters most by someone who has.
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
no there isnt to you maybe, but he is behaving like an asshat which is embarrassing to some people
And that is his behavior, not his performance. See the analogy is used in a specific conversation. It aims to display that my idea - that "embarrassing games by a foreigner" and "foreigner community being embarrassed" are connected to each other - is wrong. It says, look, this guy produced an embarrassing performance and was applauded for it, therefore you're wrong. Well, no, because none of these guys did embarrassing performances, so there is no equivalency there.
I didn't even bring up that there is no comparison between the two communities in question, as there is no way in hell someone would say "I can't wait to see that guinean guy get raped!" before the competition began, which may be an even stronger counter-argument.
Like I said the difference between the two things is the Bahrainian swimmer and Eric Moussambani showed up and competed. Lilbow didn't even bother to try and then basically laughed about it.. That's why he's getting hate. The fact people still defend Lilbow's bullshit is why this community is fucked NOT the fact Lilbow is getting attacked over it
Whilst Lilbow may be out of his depth compared to the top Kespa players, that Eric guy is about on the same level as mediocre 50+ casual club swimmers where I am.
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
no there isnt to you maybe, but he is behaving like an asshat which is embarrassing to some people
And that is his behavior, not his performance. See the analogy is used in a specific conversation. It aims to display that my idea - that "embarrassing games by a foreigner" and "foreigner community being embarrassed" are connected to each other - is wrong. It says, look, this guy produced an embarrassing performance and was applauded for it, therefore you're wrong. Well, no, because none of these guys did embarrassing performances, so there is no equivalency there.
I didn't even bring up that there is no comparison between the two communities in question, as there is no way in hell someone would say "I can't wait to see that guinean guy get raped!" before the competition began, which may be an even stronger counter-argument.
Like I said the difference between the two things is the Bahrainian swimmer and Eric Moussambani showed up and competed. Lilbow didn't even bother to try and then basically laughed about it.. That's why he's getting hate. The fact people still defend Lilbow's bullshit is why this community is fucked NOT the fact Lilbow is getting attacked over it
First, thanks for telling me what I should think and what I should be angry about, I had trouble doing it by myself and needed an overmind like yours.
Second, let's say Lilbow says absolutely nothing and then loses exactly in the way he did: 1. The crowd gives a stand-up ovation chanting "Lilbow! Lilbow! Lilbow!". All of TL praise him for his achievement and casual watchers who just tuned in for Blizzcon look up to him as the hero of foreignlands. 2. He is criticized and mocked for his performance, people reflect on what the level of foreigners is if that's their best representant, questions are raised regarding whether he should be allowed at Blizzcon over more "deserving" players.
I can't wait to see how people will justify saying 1 :D
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
no there isnt to you maybe, but he is behaving like an asshat which is embarrassing to some people
And that is his behavior, not his performance. See the analogy is used in a specific conversation. It aims to display that my idea - that "embarrassing games by a foreigner" and "foreigner community being embarrassed" are connected to each other - is wrong. It says, look, this guy produced an embarrassing performance and was applauded for it, therefore you're wrong. Well, no, because none of these guys did embarrassing performances, so there is no equivalency there.
I didn't even bring up that there is no comparison between the two communities in question, as there is no way in hell someone would say "I can't wait to see that guinean guy get raped!" before the competition began, which may be an even stronger counter-argument.
Like I said the difference between the two things is the Bahrainian swimmer and Eric Moussambani showed up and competed. Lilbow didn't even bother to try and then basically laughed about it.. That's why he's getting hate. The fact people still defend Lilbow's bullshit is why this community is fucked NOT the fact Lilbow is getting attacked over it
First, thanks for telling me what I should think and what I should be angry about, I had trouble doing it by myself and needed an overmind like yours.
Second, let's say Lilbow says absolutely nothing and then loses exactly in the way he did: 1. The crowds gives a stand-up ovation chanting "Lilbow! Lilbow! Lilbow!". All of TL praise him for his achievement and casual watchers who just tuned in for Blizzcon look up to him as the hero of foreignlands. 2. He is criticized and mocked for his performance, people reflect on what the level of foreigners is if that's their best representant, questions are raised regarding whether he should be allowed at Blizzcon over more "deserving" players.
I can't wait to see how people will justify saying 1 :D
3. Life is praised as a strategic genius in the same vein as Boxer for cheesing three times in a row.
On November 05 2015 13:30 NonY wrote: If you choose to be interested in more aspects of SC2 than the games, such as getting to know the personalities and thoughts of the players so that you can judge them according to whatever system of values you have, then you may want to reconsider how productive it is to tell people about it. If you get your jollies from patting each other on the back for all liking a guy for the same reasons, I guess that's fine because at least it's positive, even if it's not productive. But shitting on a guy because he made a different decision than you would, when he's not even in a situation where there's an obvious optimal path that he failed to follow, is not productive and it's not conducive to an enjoyable atmosphere. Analyze the situation, say what you would have done, say why, that's all fine. But at no point has anyone justified saying Lilbow lacks respect, has failed to fulfill his duty, etc, so I don't see why people are saying that shit. Maybe ask yourself if you've really proven it or if you're just projecting your own personal values and not some universal values.
there is an obvious "optimal" path. spoilers: silence
On November 05 2015 13:30 NonY wrote: If you choose to be interested in more aspects of SC2 than the games, such as getting to know the personalities and thoughts of the players so that you can judge them according to whatever system of values you have, then you may want to reconsider how productive it is to tell people about it. If you get your jollies from patting each other on the back for all liking a guy for the same reasons, I guess that's fine because at least it's positive, even if it's not productive. But shitting on a guy because he made a different decision than you would, when he's not even in a situation where there's an obvious optimal path that he failed to follow, is not productive and it's not conducive to an enjoyable atmosphere. Analyze the situation, say what you would have done, say why, that's all fine. But at no point has anyone justified saying Lilbow lacks respect, has failed to fulfill his duty, etc, so I don't see why people are saying that shit. Maybe ask yourself if you've really proven it or if you're just projecting your own personal values and not some universal values.
there is an obvious "optimal" path. spoilers: silence
Or if Lilbow still wanted to vent his frustration, and a less optimal path : rage about being cheesed Would have generated less shitstorm than this PR-screw up.
On November 05 2015 13:30 NonY wrote: If you choose to be interested in more aspects of SC2 than the games, such as getting to know the personalities and thoughts of the players so that you can judge them according to whatever system of values you have, then you may want to reconsider how productive it is to tell people about it. If you get your jollies from patting each other on the back for all liking a guy for the same reasons, I guess that's fine because at least it's positive, even if it's not productive. But shitting on a guy because he made a different decision than you would, when he's not even in a situation where there's an obvious optimal path that he failed to follow, is not productive and it's not conducive to an enjoyable atmosphere. Analyze the situation, say what you would have done, say why, that's all fine. But at no point has anyone justified saying Lilbow lacks respect, has failed to fulfill his duty, etc, so I don't see why people are saying that shit. Maybe ask yourself if you've really proven it or if you're just projecting your own personal values and not some universal values.
You seem to be saying that everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, and in fact no one is allowed to question that opinion because the opinion was legitimate because it was how they felt at the time . Of course a person can question and criticise an opinion, that's how we learn.
On November 03 2015 07:11 Specialist wrote: progamer is a joke to begin with gaming should never be considered more than a hobby he's a lazy slob who tries to get by with life by playing games most normal people see gaming as a hobby, to think you are a professional at something so stupid is absurd
lilbow can do whatever he wants at something that has 0 meaningful impact in the world
This has to get an award boyzz ~~~
That's the most stupid thing I've ever read on the Internet during my entire life. (and that's saying smthg actually)
On November 05 2015 13:30 NonY wrote: If you choose to be interested in more aspects of SC2 than the games, such as getting to know the personalities and thoughts of the players so that you can judge them according to whatever system of values you have, then you may want to reconsider how productive it is to tell people about it. If you get your jollies from patting each other on the back for all liking a guy for the same reasons, I guess that's fine because at least it's positive, even if it's not productive. But shitting on a guy because he made a different decision than you would, when he's not even in a situation where there's an obvious optimal path that he failed to follow, is not productive and it's not conducive to an enjoyable atmosphere. Analyze the situation, say what you would have done, say why, that's all fine. But at no point has anyone justified saying Lilbow lacks respect, has failed to fulfill his duty, etc, so I don't see why people are saying that shit. Maybe ask yourself if you've really proven it or if you're just projecting your own personal values and not some universal values.
I don't get it. who has the authority to say we aren't justified to say what we meant?
some sort of logic that goes if we don't know that person well enough, we cannot make judgement of his actions and his reasoning provided by him himself?
On November 05 2015 11:53 Hotshot wrote: I am not going to read 33 pages, but I got a few comments on this:
1# He won his place and ticket there. 2# Who cares what reason he lost. Being angry that he didn't practice to your standards is not fair. 3# Id he really did not practice, and ended up lied about practicing you would not be as angry with him.
EPT
