EPTOn October 17 2015 20:33 Endymion wrote:
i have been people fail the WoL starting mission on normal difficulty
i have been people fail the WoL starting mission on normal difficulty
You select all, you move command (not a-move) to the end.
First mission of StarCraft 2: Legacy of the Void - Page 4
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
You select all, you move command (not a-move) to the end. | ||
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Kingsky
Singapore298 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:37 hymn wrote: Guys, guys, games have crappy stories, game story makers are not good writers. If you want a good story, read a book. If you want good gameplay, you play games. It's that simple. I've never stumbled upon a game with a story that's engaging like a good book. If someone says he has, tell them to read a novel like The great Gatsby and to tell again if the game story is better. nah its the writers fault, you think in the stone-age. Games are a medium and there are good and bad game-writers. | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
On October 17 2015 15:53 Scrubwave wrote: It can't be worse than HoTS campaign. Right? depends if the same team that made multiplayer was allowed to screw up campaign | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On October 17 2015 15:07 WrathSCII wrote: Blizzard invited Eurogamer to record the first mission of Legacy of the Void and asked him to commentate on him: + Show Spoiler + Brood war Queen appears at 9:10 Average GM protoss apm here right there. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On October 19 2015 15:17 Scrubwave wrote: Look, there are 2 Zeratuls- the independent SC1 one who does what he feels is right and shits on conclaves, judgements, and all that. And the tired, old TIDINGS OF D00M emo fool. It makes sense for Zeratul to have gone through a character change though. Seeing evidence that your entire galaxy is about to be made consumed is probably going to make anyone a bit glum and the existential angst of seeing the hybrid might take a bit of a toll. Imagine knowing that the only reason your species exists is so that it can be eventually merged with another and used as mind controlled puppets for an omnicidal demigod. Oh yeah, he also killed his leader and friend by the end of BW and went into exile. Might affect a guy, ya know? I think the problem with Zeratul is that for a guy who says a lot we don't get to see a lot of depth to his character. His role in the plot is not unlike Gandalf, someone who knows a whole bunch and has to get a bunch of characters to do stuff they would not do otherwise. But with Gandalf you had warmth, charm, a goodly nature to go along with that sense of wisdom and gravitas. With Zeratul he alternates between 'everything's fucked' and 'maybe there's some hope after all' and you need a bit more than that. OR you need to say an awful lot less. nah its the writers fault, you think in the stone-age. Games are a medium and there are good and bad game-writers. Not necessarily, it depends on how much authority the writer has in the overall project. There's a thousand small ways that despite having a skilled writer on board you still get a shitty narrative. My (admittedly unresearched) belief is that the closer a lead writer is to the lead designer, especially if they're the same person, the stronger the narrative aspects will be. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On October 19 2015 18:45 BEARDiaguz wrote: It makes sense for Zeratul to have gone through a character change though. Seeing evidence that your entire galaxy is about to be made consumed is probably going to make anyone a bit glum and the existential angst of seeing the hybrid might take a bit of a toll. Imagine knowing that the only reason your species exists is so that it can be eventually merged with another and used as mind controlled puppets for an omnicidal demigod. Oh yeah, he also killed his leader and friend by the end of BW and went into exile. Might affect a guy, ya know? I think the problem with Zeratul is that for a guy who says a lot we don't get to see a lot of depth to his character. His role in the plot is not unlike Gandalf, someone who knows a whole bunch and has to get a bunch of characters to do stuff they would not do otherwise. But with Gandalf you had warmth, charm, a goodly nature to go along with that sense of wisdom and gravitas. With Zeratul he alternates between 'everything's fucked' and 'maybe there's some hope after all' and you need a bit more than that. OR you need to say an awful lot less. Also Gandalf always helped out when things were at its darkest. Zeratul cryptically appears and disappears at random times to order people around. He's kind of a dick now that I think about it. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
He has been doing his own thing since the end of BW, and dissapeared after a battle that saw the death of the Matriarch. He admits in HoTS to have done things that the Protoss will hate him for - they probably know of some of these, and have heard rumours of his dealings with Kerrigan. The "Causing the fall of Aiur" comment seemed more like a response to Zeratul wanting the invasion to halt. I don't think it has any relation to the order to arrest him other than Selendis telling him off. There is a lot of tension in the moment, and even though it has probably been determined long ago that Zeratul wasn't at fault, she likely still holds a grudge. In other words. Zeratul has been doing stuff that the Protoss don't like - including dealing with Kerrigan. They want to arrest him for this, and when he shows up interrupting their great moment, Selendis orders his arrest. When he persists in demanding that they turn back, she slings an insult - not an accusation - to his role in the fall of Aiur. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
Granted, perhaps just before this mission there is an explanation of some sort somewhere. But it's an intro mission so I'm not holding my breath. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 20 2015 00:07 phyvo wrote: As others have mentioned, regardless of whether an explanation or rational exists the cinematic is not very well explained. If you have to read into the story ways for characters to know things that we've never seen happen or scratch your head trying to figure why exactly X is angry with Y that's bad storytelling. This isn't a crazy mystery or political intrigue series here, you want the actions of your main characters to make sense at face value. Some recapping information or lines of dialogue where they actually explained their feelings to some extent ("you traitor you killed the matriarch" or somesuch thing) would help a great deal. But, despite amply opportunity to explain it, no one mentions why zeratul is a traitor and what bad things he has done. Granted, perhaps just before this mission there is an explanation of some sort somewhere. But, it's an intro mission, so I'm not holding my breath. Judging how the entire story is told from the tutorial mission is more than a bit naive. Or is Starcraft really just about a backwater station harvesting minerals and gas? | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
It's just that none of this has been brought up in SC2 yet so we're just kinda supposed to have played through Broodwar recently. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On October 20 2015 00:11 Thieving Magpie wrote: Judging how the entire story is told from the tutorial mission is more than a bit naive. Or is Starcraft really just about a backwater station harvesting minerals and gas? No, that is not the point I'm trying to make. This is episode 3. The way it's presented (and the situation in which it's presented) it doesn't seem like Zeratul's guilt is some kind of mystery we have to figure out. There's obviously something we have seen that's supposed to make this make sense. Yet people in here are confused. That ruins the dramatic moment. Instead of creating despair and tension when Zeratul's past bites his universe-saving goals in the butt they just made viewers think "what the crap is going on? Is he feeling guilty about this or that or both?" You're not going to get that moment back if you try to explain Zeratul's guilt later in the campaign. You have to explain before they decide to invade Aiur so that people don't get confused. Obviously it wasn't explained very well in WoL/HotS or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. This leaves only the time between booting up LotV and starting the intro mission. That's possible, but it's not a lot of room. That is why I said I'm not holding my breath. So no, I'm not criticizing the entire campaign. Effectively I'm criticizing the intro mission and the lack of Zeratul guilt explanation in WoL/HotS. Even if the reason is killing the matriarch in BW the viewer should not have to guess that, it should have been mentioned somewhere at least once. | ||
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HeatEXTEND
Netherlands836 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:37 hymn wrote: Guys, guys, games have crappy stories, *starts furiously throwing quarters at the But-What-About-Planescape:Torment™-O-Matic* | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 20 2015 00:55 phyvo wrote: No, that is not the point I'm trying to make. This is episode 3. The way it's presented (and the situation in which it's presented) it doesn't seem like Zeratul's guilt is some kind of mystery we have to figure out. There's obviously something we have seen that's supposed to make this make sense. Yet people in here are confused. That ruins the dramatic moment. Instead of creating despair and tension when Zeratul's past bites his universe-saving goals in the butt they just made viewers think "what the crap is going on? Is he feeling guilty about this or that or both?" You're not going to get that moment back if you try to explain Zeratul's guilt later in the campaign. You have to explain before they decide to invade Aiur so that people don't get confused. Obviously it wasn't explained very well in WoL/HotS or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. This leaves only the time between booting up LotV and starting the intro mission. That's possible, but it's not a lot of room. That is why I said I'm not holding my breath. So no, I'm not criticizing the entire campaign. Effectively I'm criticizing the intro mission and the lack of Zeratul guilt explanation in WoL/HotS. Even if the reason is killing the matriarch in BW the viewer should not have to guess that, it should have been mentioned somewhere at least once. But its not confusing at all. The Protoss say they are upset with him, that is all there is to know. Should it be dug deeper as to the how and why then it will be dug deeper. You can't have the conclusion at the beginning of a story or else King Arthur would be a king before he pulls the sword. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On October 20 2015 11:48 Thieving Magpie wrote: But its not confusing at all. The Protoss say they are upset with him, that is all there is to know. Should it be dug deeper as to the how and why then it will be dug deeper. You can't have the conclusion at the beginning of a story or else King Arthur would be a king before he pulls the sword. You just compared this to a major plot point of King Arthur (as if it had the proper build-up for that) and simultaneously said that it needn't have any sort of an explanation (what a lazy way to write, "wee, I can just change characters' feelings whenever I want for no reason!"). It's OK feel that way, that's your taste after all, if you have fun with it more power to you. But, regardless of our disagreement over how to tell a story, the fact is that people have been confused and have been arguing about this in the thread. Not everyone is as flexible as you are and as a writer you have to appeal to your whole audience. SC2 is a space opera trying to reach a mass market and so the writers are trying to write a good story for that market. If this thread is at all indicative of that audience then this cinematic is an example of bad writing simply because, instead of gripping us with what happened, we're here arguing about whether or not it's stupid. This one cinematic will hardly hurt the game significantly by itself but there is no doubt that it could have communicated better to the audience. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 20 2015 13:17 phyvo wrote: You just compared this to a major plot point of King Arthur (as if it had the proper build-up for that) and simultaneously said that it needn't have any sort of an explanation (what a lazy way to write, "wee, I can just change characters' feelings whenever I want for no reason!"). It's OK feel that way, that's your taste after all, if you have fun with it more power to you. But, regardless of our disagreement over how to tell a story, the fact is that people have been confused and have been arguing about this in the thread. Not everyone is as flexible as you are and as a writer you have to appeal to your whole audience. SC2 is a space opera trying to reach a mass market and so the writers are trying to write a good story for that market. If this thread is at all indicative of that audience then this cinematic is an example of bad writing simply because, instead of gripping us with what happened, we're here arguing about whether or not it's stupid. This one cinematic will hardly hurt the game significantly by itself but there is no doubt that it could have communicated better to the audience. There is only a tiny group confused--those who wants this to say more than it did. The rest simply take what they are given and wait till the whole story is told. Its not a matter of confusion, its a matter of whiny impatience. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On October 20 2015 13:33 Thieving Magpie wrote: There is only a tiny group confused--those who wants this to say more than it did. The rest simply take what they are given and wait till the whole story is told. Its not a matter of confusion, its a matter of whiny impatience. Tiny group, right. Well, this argument is obviously at the end of being productive. I'm done. If I continued we'd only argue more in circles for eternity. | ||
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Holybouseman
Poland27 Posts
If it is so, some of the Protoss might look at all Zeratul has done differently and for example question whether he really didn't know killing Zasz would reveal Aiur's location to the Overmind or whether he wasn't in league with Kerrigan when it came to killing Raszagal (after which he suddenly disappeared). After all, if one believes Zeratul is a traitor, he has every right to wonder how deep does his treachery go and whether some of his actions weren't a part of an evil plot. As for why Talis and Karass didn't act hostile towards Zeratul - well, Zeratul met Karass before he helped Kerrigan, so the High Templar didn't have any reason to be mad at Zeratul and Talis... One logical explanation is that the Protoss knew about Zeratul helping Kerrigan because they've had some observers on Zerus... and, either Talis was too far away from Shakuras to hear the news or Artanis decided to keep this knowledge a secret to avoid pissing off the Dark Templar by accusing one of their heroes of treason just before the invasion. --- It can all be explained one way or another, but... If they come back to this a bit later and explain why and how the Protoss hate Zeratul - I'm fine with that little mystery being there, but if they just leave it as it is, that's just poor writing. | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
HOTS has no joy especially those 'missions' where you get zerg units with diff abilities. They are just walk through and i don't feel like i earn those units. Those 'missions' were merely just wasting a few minutes so i can use their abilities in the game. For me, I expect LOTV the same as WOL and HOTS. You can access diff missions at your own order and each time you unify a tribe, your units gain some extra damage, extra health, or some other abilities. This is the same formula. I just like to see how the prophecy is fulfilled and the Protoss join forces w/ Zerg and Terran to defeat Amon. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 20 2015 18:10 BigRedDog wrote: I just hope the game play is much more difficult than HOTS. HOTS has no joy especially those 'missions' where you get zerg units with diff abilities. They are just walk through and i don't feel like i earn those units. Those 'missions' were merely just wasting a few minutes so i can use their abilities in the game. For me, I expect LOTV the same as WOL and HOTS. You can access diff missions at your own order and each time you unify a tribe, your units gain some extra damage, extra health, or some other abilities. This is the same formula. I just like to see how the prophecy is fulfilled and the Protoss join forces w/ Zerg and Terran to defeat Amon. Really all we really want is a 2.5-3.0 hours Blizzard Cinematic. No need for gameplay, just show us 3 hours of story. It'd be grand. Then do a 6 part mini-series each episode 2-3 hours long of just SC1 => BW story in nothing but the current Blizz cinematics. | ||
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
On a positive side I hope the LotV missions themselves give me as much fun as the WoL campaign which I actually really liked a lot. HotS, not so much. | ||
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