EPT+ Show Spoiler +
Brood war Queen appears at 9:10
First mission of StarCraft 2: Legacy of the Void
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Wrath
3174 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Brood war Queen appears at 9:10 | ||
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:09 WrathSCII wrote: I still do not understand why they accuse Zeratul for treason.... I guess it was because maybe they found out that it was through Zeratul that the Overmind found the location of Aiur. When Zeratul touched one of the Cerebrates to slay it, the Overmind was able to peer into Zeratul's mind for enough of a brief moment. I dunno why it took so long for the other Protoss to get this mad since Zeratul seemed to have plenty of Protoss allies during his adventures, but I hope Blizzard has some explanation instead of an another annoying, lazy retcon. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:24 eviltomahawk wrote: I guess it was because maybe they found out that it was through Zeratul that the Overmind found the location of Aiur. When Zeratul touched one of the Cerebrates to slay it, the Overmind was able to peer into Zeratul's mind for enough of a brief moment. I dunno why it took so long for the other Protoss to get this mad since Zeratul seemed to have plenty of Protoss allies during his adventures, but I hope Blizzard has some explanation instead of an another annoying, lazy retcon. Exactly this, Seldnies said that it was because his interferance brought war to Aiur. But shouldn't they judge on him that much earlier? Like post SC1 and pre BW or something? Or even during BW? But they pretty did not care about that during BW at all. So why all of sudden. At least if they said because he murdered the matriarch that would have some meaning. But because slaying Zas and the overmind knew the location of Aiur is rather stupid... | ||
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hymn
Bulgaria832 Posts
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Odoakar
Croatia1835 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:37 hymn wrote: Guys, guys, games have crappy stories, game story makers are not good writers. If you want a good story, read a book. If you want good gameplay, you play games. It's that simple. I've never stumbled upon a game with a story that's engaging like a good book. If someone says he has, tell them to read a novel like The great Gatsby and to tell again if the game story is better. You never played Longest Journey? Shame. The Longest Journey was acclaimed by critics. It was praised for its female protagonist April Ryan, who is considered one of the most memorable female characters in the history of adventure games,[14] and also for its enigmatic, complex storyline and high production values and applauded the "complex and interesting story" although found the ending lacking as "the epilogue does little to wrap everything up".[10] said the game "actually reinvents how stories can be told in the medium" and noticed the mature content, including "harsh subject matter, and some big time swearing" | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:32 WrathSCII wrote: Exactly this, Seldnies said that it was because his interferance brought war to Aiur. But shouldn't they judge on him that much earlier? Like post SC1 and pre BW or something? Or even during BW? But they pretty did not care about that during BW at all. So why all of sudden. At least if they said because he murdered the matriarch that would have some meaning. But because slaying Zas and the overmind knew the location of Aiur is rather stupid... Well there was that one time Zeratul brought back the Queen of Blades in HotS. I'm sure the Protoss were not thrilled. Even though before and after we only ever see friendly Protoss interactions during Zeratul's missions... | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On October 17 2015 17:52 Elentos wrote: Well there was that one time Zeratul brought back the Queen of Blades in HotS. I'm sure the Protoss were not thrilled. Even though before and after we only ever see friendly Protoss interactions during Zeratul's missions... The only protoss actually seen Kerrigan after WoL were killed. Non survived, and also, they do not know that Zeratul actually made her Zerg after getting deinfested... | ||
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Timelog
Netherlands57 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:09 WrathSCII wrote: I still do not understand why they accuse Zeratul for treason.... Few reasons I guess. Firstly, when he kills the Cerebrate in SC1 (Zasz I think?) his mind links with the Overmind and that's how the Zerg discover where Aiur is. So he's kind of responsible for leading the Zerg there, albeit by accident and through doing the right thing, ie, killing Zergs. Secondly, he does kill Raszagal, the DT Matriarch. Sure she was under Kerrigan's sway but that's still a Bad Thing. Thirdly, he helped out Kerrigan that one time in HotS, which leads to her becoming the Queen of Blades again. Sure it's what was necessary to defeat this Amon bloke but not a whole lot of people seem to realise that and Zeratul seems a bit too busy to explain all this. Basically he's the Starcraft god of accidentally fucking things up whilst trying to do a good thing! | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On October 17 2015 18:37 BEARDiaguz wrote: Few reasons I guess. Firstly, when he kills the Cerebrate in SC1 (Zasz I think?) his mind links with the Overmind and that's how the Zerg discover where Aiur is. So he's kind of responsible for leading the Zerg there, albeit by accident and through doing the right thing, ie, killing Zergs. Secondly, he does kill Raszagal, the DT Matriarch. Sure she was under Kerrigan's sway but that's still a Bad Thing. Thirdly, he helped out Kerrigan that one time in HotS, which leads to her becoming the Queen of Blades again. Sure it's what was necessary to defeat this Amon bloke but not a whole lot of people seem to realise that and Zeratul seems a bit too busy to explain all this. Basically he's the Starcraft god of accidentally fucking things up whilst trying to do a good thing! 1. True, but if they wanted to punish him for that, why wait till SC2 and not in BW? Even though that does not make any sense if you think about it. Even if he did not slay Zazs, Overmind would eventually find Aiur, Zeratul is the one that taught Tassadar how to use Dark Templar energy and with it killed the overmind later. Zeratul is the one that brought Khalai survivors to Shakuris and helped them establish there and live with the Dark Templar. 2. True, I hope they use this as a reason because it is the most logical reason to accuse him for anything. Though he was limited on options. Either she lives as a slave or dies. He can be judged for treason but no reason for this "hate" he is getting. (Look at the way Selndies address him with such rudeness and despise). 3. As I said before, that is completely illogical because the only Daleem Protoss saw Kerrigan post-WoL all died without sending any signal to Shakuris as was explained in HotS. So logically they should have 0 info about Kerrigan to begin with. | ||
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1612 Posts
2. All you can do in this mission is F2+A+click into the win. Why not make like 3 lines where you control each of the line and progress more carefully with less units? I mean Starcraft is not a game about A+click, it's about... strategy. 3. It seems like there is no Expert/Brutal achievements same is in Prologue. So all the complaints about difficulty of the game were not listened, nice... | ||
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 17 2015 18:37 BEARDiaguz wrote: Basically he's the Starcraft god of accidentally fucking things up whilst trying to do a good thing! Someone's been playing Mortal Kombat, haha. Zeratul = Raiden confirmed | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On October 17 2015 19:43 Jenia6109 wrote: 1. How can you lose in this mission? I understand that the brutal version will be harder but you should be able to lose a mission on normal, right? 2. All you can do in this mission is F2+A+click into the win. Why not make like 3 lines where you control each of the line and progress more carefully with less units? I mean Starcraft is not a game about A+click, it's about... strategy. 3. It seems like there is no Expert/Brutal achievements same is in Prologue. So all the complaints about difficulty of the game were not listened, nice... It's a first level, considering the possibility that people who had never played Starcraft 2 before might be playing you'd want something straightforward and hard to fuck up as your introductory level. HotS and WoL started with straightforward levels too that would be impossible to fail on normal if you're trying. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On October 17 2015 20:27 BEARDiaguz wrote: It's a first level, considering the possibility that people who had never played Starcraft 2 before might be playing you'd want something straightforward and hard to fuck up as your introductory level. HotS and WoL started with straightforward levels too that would be impossible to fail on normal if you're trying. i have been people fail the WoL starting mission on normal difficulty | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
Anyway the story makes me cringe a bit. BW was not amazing but at least I did not have to harbor this vague sense of embarrassment all the time. | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
On October 17 2015 18:47 WrathSCII wrote: 1. True, but if they wanted to punish him for that, why wait till SC2 and not in BW? Even though that does not make any sense if you think about it. Even if he did not slay Zazs, Overmind would eventually find Aiur, Zeratul is the one that taught Tassadar how to use Dark Templar energy and with it killed the overmind later. Zeratul is the one that brought Khalai survivors to Shakuris and helped them establish there and live with the Dark Templar. 2. True, I hope they use this as a reason because it is the most logical reason to accuse him for anything. Though he was limited on options. Either she lives as a slave or dies. He can be judged for treason but no reason for this "hate" he is getting. (Look at the way Selndies address him with such rudeness and despise). 3. As I said before, that is completely illogical because the only Daleem Protoss saw Kerrigan post-WoL all died without sending any signal to Shakuris as was explained in HotS. So logically they should have 0 info about Kerrigan to begin with. im just guessing, (maybe the answer might be in one of those starcraft novels) but basically i thought it was becasue the protoss were really busy with trying to get back on their feet and the main person thats been causing them all these trouble is kerrigan, she like tricks them all into pesudo following her until she backstabs them killing fenix again her crimes seem to be more pronounced cause even tho zeratul lead the zerg to auir its under the overmind's control that does the actual killing (plus kerrigan being his like 1st in command and later leader). Plus dont the protoss of auir really hate dark templers to the point where they're super outcasts and ignored. (hes probably been second priotery for a while with kerrigan/zerg being the first, plus its not like they think hes on kerrigan's side, just a failure in their eyes) also might just be that government stuff is slow  | ||
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:37 hymn wrote: Guys, guys, games have crappy stories, game story makers are not good writers. If you want a good story, read a book. If you want good gameplay, you play games. It's that simple. It's really not that simple. The mediums themselves makes the comparison of execution within books and games a tenuous one at best... Additionally, what you say is not an excuse for a multi-billion dollar industry anymore, mostly because they hire writers to do this stuff. Games can have good stories, and its not hard to write "good stories" in the medium (though what you would conceive of as a good story is kind of grey), so trying to downplay writing in a game that has a dramatic narrative just "because its a game" is pretty myopic honestly. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On October 17 2015 20:58 Shock710 wrote: im just guessing, (maybe the answer might be in one of those starcraft novels) but basically i thought it was becasue the protoss were really busy with trying to get back on their feet and the main person thats been causing them all these trouble is kerrigan, she like tricks them all into pesudo following her until she backstabs them killing fenix again her crimes seem to be more pronounced cause even tho zeratul lead the zerg to auir its under the overmind's control that does the actual killing (plus kerrigan being his like 1st in command and later leader). Plus dont the protoss of auir really hate dark templers to the point where they're super outcasts and ignored. (hes probably been second priotery for a while with kerrigan/zerg being the first, plus its not like they think hes on kerrigan's side, just a failure in their eyes) also might just be that government stuff is slow Sorry, but this makes 0 logic. If they were "busy" why then let him take command in all the operations during BW? At least suspend him and let Artanis / Aldaris / Matriarch do the stuff. He was like a General, if it is because Zasz incident, he should have been suspended till everything is settled. And about Khalai Protoss hating the Dark Templar. The Khalai "REFUGEES" went to Dark Templars to take shelter from the zerg and live together. What kind of a refugee that comes to live with you and then decides to execute you? That is really a shitty refugee that should not have been taken in the first place. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
To be fair, I won the first WoL mission on the easiest difficulty with a single attack move to the end. | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
On October 17 2015 21:42 WrathSCII wrote: Sorry, but this makes 0 logic. If they were "busy" why then let him take command in all the operations during BW? At least suspend him and let Artanis / Aldaris / Matriarch do the stuff. He was like a General, if it is because Zasz incident, he should have been suspended till everything is settled. And about Khalai Protoss hating the Dark Templar. The Khalai "REFUGEES" went to Dark Templars to take shelter from the zerg and live together. What kind of a refugee that comes to live with you and then decides to execute you? That is really a shitty refugee that should not have been taken in the first place. well they werent really actively searching for him maybe it was on the to do list and then he just appeared infront of them and they were like okay cool this makes things easier lol. As for the templar taking refugee, they kinda had to i doubt many would have changed their opinion on the dark templar but at that point they might have been undecided about him and if he wants to go do "mission" stuff might as well let him (afterall he did just take u in, accepted but u dont have to like them) and then idk some time along the road they decided u know what fuck zeratul/ we need someone to blame and zeratul is pretty easy to point to. idk protoss politics but people change their minds all the time. Either way i could see it happening in some random way or another i dont think its implausible they decided to hate on him, plus maybe they thought when he was actively fighting the zerg and in view of the conclave it was okay but when he decided to run and look for "answers" without telling them they misunderstood and thought he was running from judgement (dishonorable yada yada stuff) | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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wjat
385 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:37 hymn wrote: Guys, guys, games have crappy stories, game story makers are not good writers. If you want a good story, read a book. If you want good gameplay, you play games. It's that simple. I've never stumbled upon a game with a story that's engaging like a good book. If someone says he has, tell them to read a novel like The great Gatsby and to tell again if the game story is better. I'm sorry bro but I played Ocarina of Time on my freaking Nintendo 64 =^.^= | ||
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GiveMeCake
148 Posts
the smoke effects when zera appears in the cinematic the tile set of auir (so nice) the mutas flying over head being chased by phoenix otherwise it was disappointing, but again, only the first mission, there's still hope. | ||
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Starecat
937 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:37 hymn wrote: Guys, guys, games have crappy stories, game story makers are not good writers. If you want a good story, read a book. If you want good gameplay, you play games. It's that simple. I've never stumbled upon a game with a story that's engaging like a good book. If someone says he has, tell them to read a novel like The great Gatsby and to tell again if the game story is better. Books are automatically better than games? Explain to me how Twilight is better than Xenogears. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:09 WrathSCII wrote: I still do not understand why they accuse Zeratul for treason.... Because Blizzard is terrible at writing. There isn't a good reason for them to accuse him of treason. Exactly this, Seldnies said that it was because his interferance brought war to Aiur. But shouldn't they judge on him that much earlier? Like post SC1 and pre BW or something? Or even during BW? But they pretty did not care about that during BW at all. So why all of sudden. At least if they said because he murdered the matriarch that would have some meaning. But because slaying Zas and the overmind knew the location of Aiur is rather stupid... Not only was the Overmind trying to get to Aiur anyway (he would have undoubtedly gotten there eventually), but how the hell was Zeratul supposed to know that the mind link-thing was going to happen? For that matter, how the hell does everyone else know? Still a terrible excuse. | ||
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Starecat
937 Posts
10/10. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On October 17 2015 23:40 Starecat wrote: Books are automatically better than games? Explain to me how Twilight is better than Xenogears. twilight is actually an interesting book from a lot of different perspectives, idk why people slander it 24/7.. the movies are mostly over sexualized trash, but the books (at least the first two) are well written and they cater to their audiences without dumbing down everything like the movies do. i have never played xenogears so idk if it's better, but using twilight as an example of an objectively bad book in your statement isn't accurate | ||
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Khalum
Austria831 Posts
On October 17 2015 23:54 Endymion wrote: twilight is actually an interesting book from a lot of different perspectives, idk why people slander it 24/7.. the movies are mostly over sexualized trash, but the books (at least the first two) are well written and they cater to their audiences without dumbing down everything like the movies do. i have never played xenogears so idk if it's better, but using twilight as an example of an objectively bad book in your statement isn't accurate [offtopic] + Show Spoiler + I find it very amusing in this context that your name is Endymion. Idk if you know the Hyperion books, which are truly amazing. The sequels were abyssmal and called .. Endymion. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
Whats more one has to consider the emotional background here, the protoss are about to rethink their fucking home world, this is their Jerusalem many times over and humanity has done quite a bit in pursuit of that shit dessert city. This a gorgeous habitable world that also happens to be the center of all protoss culture, and now the motherfucker who (albeit inadvertently) was responsible for the original route of aiur shows up and says "nah brah, this isn't a big deal, lets go do something else." Couple that with the natural hatred of the nerazhim (dank brotars) and the fact that zeri outright helped kerrigan, was then allowed to fucking live by kerrigan, and then was nowhere to be found in the eventual final battle vs kerrigan (disastrous clash at the end of bw) you have a severe recipe for distrust. Then the ol mafia concept comes into play, wherein if accusations arise and your not their to confront them, suspicions become condemnations. So yeah, him fucking off to do mystical mediv shit (and literally mope as the books have it) must not have helped his cause. WHATS MOAR, if you look in the crowd you'll see exactly zero dark templar / : basically there's only one person here who wouldn't immediately feel kinda shitty about an infamous dt warping into hq, and that person is Artanis, who by the way, is actually quite reasonable about the whole thing. Specifically, Zeratul doesn't tell artanis this is a trap, only that they got better shit to do. Artanis views Aiur as the lynch pin of protoss unity, there is nothing at the moment more important to him than its reclamation and subsequent role in the unifying of the toss. To him its not so much a matter of is Zeri right, but more so just Aiur>Amon, which according to the lore video reclamation, you can blame on that rambo zealot. Any moar questions anyone : P | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 17 2015 20:33 Endymion wrote: i have been people fail the WoL starting mission on normal difficulty When you sit someone who has not played an RTS before in front of the game. And he sees his army--he does not want to lose a single fucking guy. He will slow play and use only small amounts of troops, retreating damaged ones, and reinforcing with the full health ones. Only people who understand RTS games already know that you can sometimes just deathball the fuck out of opponent. Unless they actually make a realistic campaign where you have a finite amount of resources to finish the campaign and you being wasteful in any one mission makes all preceding missions more difficult. But that's a different discussion. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
On October 18 2015 01:48 gumshoe wrote: its not particularly unreasonable for the toss to be mad at zera / : considering the toss themselves aren't reasonable XD we've actually been through this whole thing before with Tassadar, and before you say "well tassadars crime was legit as opposed to zeras" remember, they only came after Tassadar after his attempt to kill a cerebrate failed / : not when he specifically committed his crime. Whats more one has to consider the emotional background here, the protoss are about to rethink their fucking home world, this is their Jerusalem many times over and humanity has done quite a bit in pursuit of that shit dessert city. This a gorgeous habitable world that also happens to be the center of all protoss culture, and now the motherfucker who (albeit inadvertently) was responsible for the original route of aiur shows up and says "nah brah, this isn't a big deal, lets go do something else." Couple that with the natural hatred of the nerazhim (dank brotars) and the fact that zeri outright helped kerrigan, was then allowed to fucking live by kerrigan, and then was nowhere to be found in the eventual final battle vs kerrigan (disastrous clash at the end of bw) you have a severe recipe for distrust. Then the ol mafia concept comes into play, wherein if accusations arise and your not their to confront them, suspicions become condemnations. So yeah, him fucking off to do mystical mediv shit (and literally mope as the books have it) must not have helped his cause. WHATS MOAR, if you look in the crowd you'll see exactly zero dark templar / : basically there's only one person here who wouldn't immediately feel kinda shitty about an infamous dt warping into hq, and that person is Artanis, who by the way, is actually quite reasonable about the whole thing. Specifically, Zeratul doesn't tell artanis this is a trap, only that they got better shit to do. Artanis views Aiur as the lynch pin of protoss unity, there is nothing at the moment more important to him than its reclamation and subsequent role in the unifying of the toss. To him its not so much a matter of is Zeri right, but more so just Aiur>Amon, which according to the lore video reclamation, you can blame on that rambo zealot. Any moar questions anyone : P Artanis idolized Tassa and Zera, he has only the deepest respect for them, and would listen well to what they had to say. Artanis helped Kerri in BW as much as Zera did, and I have no doubt would have agreed with killing the Overmind if it meant bringing Razagal back. If Tassadar was willing to forgive Zera for Zasz the rest of the protoss have no right to be angry. Furthermore how could Zera help Arty v Kerri on the Space Platform? He was lost and he and Arty had no idea where each other where. The only thing that Zera can be even a little blamed for is killing Raza but I have no doubt Mohandar will prevent the Nerazim from killing Zera in revenge. The only person I am unsure of is Vorazun, her opinion on the matter is paramount (but I digress). Selendis is clearly aware of the event of the Invasion of Aiur (her deep respect for Raynor) therefore she should know better than to hate Zera. I think they can understand that Kerri is twisted enough to let Zera live for the reasons she mentioned in The Reckoning, and therefore they can only maybe blame Zera for Primal Kerri but they shouldn't know about that. Not to mention the similarities between Zera and Tassa right now are way too insane. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
No matter if he is guilty, he feels that he did bad things(mostly killing Raszagal IMO). So we can all guess why THEY did it when it is possible they are acting on Zeratuls wish. I am saving the prologue for November 9, so not exactly sure what is happening, just reminding a thing from HotS  | ||
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
On October 18 2015 03:26 Cricketer12 wrote: Artanis idolized Tassa and Zera, he has only the deepest respect for them, and would listen well to what they had to say. Artanis helped Kerri in BW as much as Zera did, and I have no doubt would have agreed with killing the Overmind if it meant bringing Razagal back. If Tassadar was willing to forgive Zera for Zasz the rest of the protoss have no right to be angry. Furthermore how could Zera help Arty v Kerri on the Space Platform? He was lost and he and Arty had no idea where each other where. The only thing that Zera can be even a little blamed for is killing Raza but I have no doubt Mohandar will prevent the Nerazim from killing Zera in revenge. The only person I am unsure of is Vorazun, her opinion on the matter is paramount (but I digress). Selendis is clearly aware of the event of the Invasion of Aiur (her deep respect for Raynor) therefore she should know better than to hate Zera. I think they can understand that Kerri is twisted enough to let Zera live for the reasons she mentioned in The Reckoning, and therefore they can only maybe blame Zera for Primal Kerri but they shouldn't know about that. Not to mention the similarities between Zera and Tassa right now are way too insane. Artanis does idolize zera, thats why hes reasonable / : but all those events you mentioned, you assume the toss have definitive knowledge of what happened, all that really occured was zeratul took off with some dts after raz, then the overmind died, suggesting said dts aided kerri. All dem dts then were massacred, with the exception of zeri and zeri never came back / : despite all that you can clearly hear arti is giving zeri the benefit of the doubt, hes just not willing to call off the entire invasion because of zeris super duper vague request (there is evil and stuff over there, pwease) As for Seli, she doesnt have much char / : we can just consider her a hardcore sarah palin esque protoss conservative with a dash of racism (were there any dts in her wings mission btw?) So ultimately whether you have a problem with what happened in the cutscene boils down to two reactions. 1: would artanis give up on the hope of an aiur for all toss cause Zeri shows up after years of dodging/mopping and has misgivings? 2: would a hardcore khala toss be pissed at a dt with a shitty past for said shitty past and attempting to thwart THE GREAT RECLAMATION. Seems reasonable to me / : but like I said, the toss aint that reasonable XD so they dont have to be totally logical in thier accusations "HERESY" was always a pretty big flaw of the toss / : | ||
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On October 18 2015 03:26 Cricketer12 wrote: Artanis idolized Tassa and Zera, he has only the deepest respect for them, and would listen well to what they had to say. Artanis helped Kerri in BW as much as Zera did, and I have no doubt would have agreed with killing the Overmind if it meant bringing Razagal back. If Tassadar was willing to forgive Zera for Zasz the rest of the protoss have no right to be angry. Furthermore how could Zera help Arty v Kerri on the Space Platform? He was lost and he and Arty had no idea where each other where. The only thing that Zera can be even a little blamed for is killing Raza but I have no doubt Mohandar will prevent the Nerazim from killing Zera in revenge. The only person I am unsure of is Vorazun, her opinion on the matter is paramount (but I digress). Selendis is clearly aware of the event of the Invasion of Aiur (her deep respect for Raynor) therefore she should know better than to hate Zera. I think they can understand that Kerri is twisted enough to let Zera live for the reasons she mentioned in The Reckoning, and therefore they can only maybe blame Zera for Primal Kerri but they shouldn't know about that. Not to mention the similarities between Zera and Tassa right now are way too insane. FFs pronounce their full names... Tassadar willing to forgive Zeratul? FFS IN THE ORIGINAL STARCRAFT IT WAS COORDINATED PLAN BETWEEN BOTH OF THEM. THEY BOTH SHARE THE SAME RESPONSIBILITY THAT IF WE GIVE IN IT WAS A MISTAKE TO BEGIN WITH! Edit: Sorry for the caps... | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:09 WrathSCII wrote: I still do not understand why they accuse Zeratul for treason.... He killed the Matriarch, He Killed The Matriarch, HE KILLED THE MATRIARCH, HE! KILLED! THE! MATRIARCH!. it doesn't matter the circumstance and some of them don't even know that. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On October 18 2015 06:09 LongShot27 wrote: He killed the Matriarch, He Killed The Matriarch, HE KILLED THE MATRIARCH, HE! KILLED! THE! MATRIARCH!. it doesn't matter the circumstance and some of them don't even know that. She was possessed or infected wasnt she? I thought the ending of the protoss missions in BW somewhat re united the two protoss groups together from their split aeons ago? | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
Unless we're talking "the only person to see was a Khalai Protoss who was watching through a spyglass and didn't overhear any of the conversation and also he only tuned in after Raszagal's prison was broken so he can't put 2+2 together and realize that she was Kerrigan's prisoner and there may be perfectly valid reasons for killing her" levels of coincidence. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On October 18 2015 07:35 pure.Wasted wrote: It doesn't explain how they know he killed the Matriarch, though. If someone was there to witness the deed, they would have also witnessed the context of Zeratul's actions. Unless we're talking "the only person to see was a Khalai Protoss who was watching through a spyglass and didn't overhear any of the conversation and also he only tuned in after Raszagal's prison was broken so he can't put 2+2 together and realize that she was Kerrigan's prisoner and there may be perfectly valid reasons for killing her" levels of coincidence. The Khalai arent the ones who hate him, think. | ||
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1612 Posts
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Apoteosis
Chile820 Posts
Well played sir ! | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On October 18 2015 06:50 LongShot27 wrote: Read the second line of the post... And your post doesn't actually back your assumption up. There's simply no clear reason for Zeratul's "need" to atone for anything, and no clear reason for the Protoss to be mad at him in the first place. The fact that we have to have a thread to try and hash out why the hell they're so mad at him demonstrates the fact that it's just bad writing, regardless of whether they come up with a reason for it in LotV or not. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On October 18 2015 11:00 Stratos_speAr wrote: And your post doesn't actually back your assumption up. There's simply no clear reason for Zeratul's "need" to atone for anything, and no clear reason for the Protoss to be mad at him in the first place. The fact that we have to have a thread to try and hash out why the hell they're so mad at him demonstrates the fact that it's just bad writing, regardless of whether they come up with a reason for it in LotV or not. "I fucked up, I was unable to do my job, I killed the matriarch, I'm going into exile, I'm going to fix this" He literally said this in game, holy shit you can't be this dense. | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
On October 17 2015 19:25 Scrubwave wrote: Spare me this excuse. Many games have good stories and just because they're video games doesn't mean devs shouldn't even try. BW had good story, HOTS had terrible. Thats right but comparable to books? Not in the slightest. But it is more a question of media than bad writing. Every media has diffrent advantages. | ||
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zodijackyl1
18 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:37 hymn wrote: Guys, guys, games have crappy stories, game story makers are not good writers. If you want a good story, read a book. If you want good gameplay, you play games. It's that simple. I've never stumbled upon a game with a story that's engaging like a good book. If someone says he has, tell them to read a novel like The great Gatsby and to tell again if the game story is better. Warcraft 3 had a great story. For that matter the entire Warcraft franchise is a great story. What pisses me off about the prologue campaign is that when Zeratul and friends are fleeing the temple, there is no reason they could not all escape. In Warcraft 3 TFT Maiev Shadowsong could use blink to escape the Tomb of Sargeras by blinking over the fissures blocking her warriors path. Other than her though, everyone else died. That makes sense. Not to mention her warriors said, "May the goddess light our path to their hereaftere." EPIC. Compared to, "FOR AIUR!!!" Which is overused to the point of being cliche. The writing of Warcraft was amazing, and so far SC2 has had an underwhelming storytelling experience, in my opinion. | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
Let's use Warcraft 3 as an example. There are individual events in the storyline that don't make much sense, or aren't explained that well. But nobody cared because the story-telling was magnificent. We had scenes like Arthas climbing the Frozen Throne while Uther and Muradin's voices played in the background. Maiev losing all of her friends in the Shadow Temple. The fight between Grom, Thrall, and Mannoroth. Even if you write off games as having inferior stories, it doesn't change the fact that SC2's story-telling is also lacking. No more of these epic scenes from WC3, we get cheesy and cliched dialogue. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On October 18 2015 16:03 zodijackyl1 wrote: Warcraft 3 had a great story. For that matter the entire Warcraft franchise is a great story. What pisses me off about the prologue campaign is that when Zeratul and friends are fleeing the temple, there is no reason they could not all escape. In Warcraft 3 TFT Maiev Shadowsong could use blink to escape the Tomb of Sargeras by blinking over the fissures blocking her warriors path. Other than her though, everyone else died. That makes sense. Not to mention her warriors said, "May the goddess light our path to their hereaftere." EPIC. Compared to, "FOR AIUR!!!" Which is overused to the point of being cliche. The writing of Warcraft was amazing, and so far SC2 has had an underwhelming storytelling experience, in my opinion. I'm not sure if I'd call the writing of Warcraft 3 amazing, I feel you might have your nostalgia goggles on. Though I do consider Arthas's character arc in the RoC Human campaign a rather competent bit of story telling and far and away Blizzard's best attempt at a proper character arc. | ||
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1612 Posts
On October 18 2015 22:48 Loanshark wrote: Personally I'd like to draw a distinction between "story" and "story-telling". Story would be just the raw plot, events happening in sequence on a timeline. Story-telling is how the designers let those events unfold before the player, whether it's by using cinematics or gameplay missions. A game can have a weaker story but make up for it in story-telling. Let's use Warcraft 3 as an example. There are individual events in the storyline that don't make much sense, or aren't explained that well. But nobody cared because the story-telling was magnificent. We had scenes like Arthas climbing the Frozen Throne while Uther and Muradin's voices played in the background. Maiev losing all of her friends in the Shadow Temple. The fight between Grom, Thrall, and Mannoroth. Even if you write off games as having inferior stories, it doesn't change the fact that SC2's story-telling is also lacking. No more of these epic scenes from WC3, we get cheesy and cliched dialogue. 1. Actually the story of the SC2 is simplier than story in SC1. But story-telling in SC2 is levels above SC1's story-telling. Personally i think the Heart of the Swarm story-telling is epic and i don't even know the game of this epicness (maybe LotV ).2. Story-telling always means some technical work. So, the more work the harder to tell the story. For example, the book is the easiest way to tell the story because all you do is write words and reader imagine everything else you wrote. Comics is the next level where you must draw pictures. Story-telling of SC1 and WC3 (and WC2) seems great because of it's simpleness and you can imagine some things by yourself while in SC2 we see a very detailed scenes and have between-missions and therefore have many criticism about these details because they are not always what we imagined to see. And by the way movies have the same problem when people often say that the book was much better than the actual movie. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 18 2015 23:50 Jenia6109 wrote: 1. Actually the story of the SC2 is simplier than story in SC1. But story-telling in SC2 is levels above SC1's story-telling. Personally i think the Heart of the Swarm story-telling is epic and i don't even know the game of this epicness (maybe LotV ).2. Story-telling always means some technical work. So, the more work the harder to tell the story. For example, the book is the easiest way to tell the story because all you do is write words and reader imagine everything else you wrote. Comics is the next level where you must draw pictures. Story-telling of SC1 and WC3 (and WC2) seems great because of it's simpleness and you can imagine some things by yourself while in SC2 we see a very detailed scenes and have between-missions and therefore have many criticism about these details because they are not always what we imagined to see. And by the way movies have the same problem when people often say that the book was much better than the actual movie. So much agreement here. I hate when different mediums gets compared with the same metrics. The books vs movies one especially. Imagine telling someone to write a book. Except each page cost $1,000-$100,000 and each time he rewrites any part of it that it will cost him another $1000-$100,000 to do it. Then tell him he has 6-10 weeks to complete it start to finish. Now tell him that unless his book makes at least double the cost to make it--that he will not only be in debt, but he will not be allowed to write again. Most book writers would be absolutely horrible in those circumstances because they don't work with that type of medium, with those types of deadlines, and with that much at stake. Movies have so much more technical limitations, costs, and deadlines than books. Books are some of the laziest storytelling there is out there mechanically and yet its what elitists go to the most to showcase talent. Its really absurd. Its no different than someone saying that Tetris takes more micro than Broodwar. Well of course it would, if that was the only metric you cared about. Every piece of art has to be understood in the medium its in and peers it has. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On October 18 2015 11:13 LongShot27 wrote: "I fucked up, I was unable to do my job, I killed the matriarch, I'm going into exile, I'm going to fix this" He literally said this in game, holy shit you can't be this dense. How did he fuck up? He killed the Matriarch, but she was infested. Meanwhile, he cleansed Shakuras of Zerg and united the Protoss. What job did he not do? Again, he saved the Protoss by getting rid of the Zerg and uniting the Dark templar and the Protoss from Aiur. The matriarch was infested/mind controlled, so this is a weak reason. Why was he forced into exile? There's nothing to indicate that he was going into exile after the events of BW; the only indications pointed to him going out alone and trying to investigate what the hybrids were about, which makes sense since he's kind of a loner in the first place. What is he going to fix? We have a major threat in the galaxy, but by all accounts, BW ended relatively well for the Protoss civilization (even if Artanis got his ass handed to him). Just because he said it in SC2's absolutely trash writing doesn't mean it's a good reason. One of the biggest problems with SC2's writing is that there's no continuity with BW overall. And no, the books aren't an excuse. If you can't make a logical and consistent story within your video games, then you're a bad writer. 1. Actually the story of the SC2 is simplier than story in SC1. But story-telling in SC2 is levels above SC1's story-telling. Personally i think the Heart of the Swarm story-telling is epic and i don't even know the game of this epicness (maybe LotV ). 2. Story-telling always means some technical work. So, the more work the harder to tell the story. For example, the book is the easiest way to tell the story because all you do is write words and reader imagine everything else you wrote. Comics is the next level where you must draw pictures. Story-telling of SC1 and WC3 (and WC2) seems great because of it's simpleness and you can imagine some things by yourself while in SC2 we see a very detailed scenes and have between-missions and therefore have many criticism about these details because they are not always what we imagined to see. And by the way movies have the same problem when people often say that the book was much better than the actual movie. The way that the story is presented in SC2 is much more sophisticated than in BW, but it doesn't mean it's better. Not only is the writing something a 12-year-old would think up, but the presentation is still bad. I just played through both WoL and HotS again, and it's awful; the cut scenes and cinematics are trashy, action-movie-esque pieces of useless filler, the missions are only marginally more fun and engaging than the BW missions, and the places in between missions where you have all of your dialogue are stale, repetitive, and plagued with the God-awful script that bogs down the entirety of SC2. BW's presentation, while being ridiculously simple, was still done better. the script and VA'ing was very well done, and the mission briefing screens gave you the feeling of being in a conference with some of the most powerful individuals in the sector discussing what was going on, while at the same time leaving enough room for your imagination to fill in the gaps. This isn't to say that games like BW or WC3 had great stories, but they were at least good; they were respectable and could draw you into appreciating it. WoL and HotS (and D3 for that matter) are so incredibly awful that you can't help but thinking "this is fucking ridiculous" at pretty much every turn. Just go out there and read any of the countless story reviews and they cover it so thoroughly that it's barely worth mentioning anymore. | ||
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On October 17 2015 20:33 Endymion wrote: i have been people fail the WoL starting mission on normal difficulty You select all, you move command (not a-move) to the end. | ||
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Kingsky
Singapore298 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:37 hymn wrote: Guys, guys, games have crappy stories, game story makers are not good writers. If you want a good story, read a book. If you want good gameplay, you play games. It's that simple. I've never stumbled upon a game with a story that's engaging like a good book. If someone says he has, tell them to read a novel like The great Gatsby and to tell again if the game story is better. nah its the writers fault, you think in the stone-age. Games are a medium and there are good and bad game-writers. | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
On October 17 2015 15:53 Scrubwave wrote: It can't be worse than HoTS campaign. Right? depends if the same team that made multiplayer was allowed to screw up campaign | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On October 17 2015 15:07 WrathSCII wrote: Blizzard invited Eurogamer to record the first mission of Legacy of the Void and asked him to commentate on him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sym7D-egfo8 + Show Spoiler + Brood war Queen appears at 9:10 Average GM protoss apm here right there. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On October 19 2015 15:17 Scrubwave wrote: Look, there are 2 Zeratuls- the independent SC1 one who does what he feels is right and shits on conclaves, judgements, and all that. And the tired, old TIDINGS OF D00M emo fool. It makes sense for Zeratul to have gone through a character change though. Seeing evidence that your entire galaxy is about to be made consumed is probably going to make anyone a bit glum and the existential angst of seeing the hybrid might take a bit of a toll. Imagine knowing that the only reason your species exists is so that it can be eventually merged with another and used as mind controlled puppets for an omnicidal demigod. Oh yeah, he also killed his leader and friend by the end of BW and went into exile. Might affect a guy, ya know? I think the problem with Zeratul is that for a guy who says a lot we don't get to see a lot of depth to his character. His role in the plot is not unlike Gandalf, someone who knows a whole bunch and has to get a bunch of characters to do stuff they would not do otherwise. But with Gandalf you had warmth, charm, a goodly nature to go along with that sense of wisdom and gravitas. With Zeratul he alternates between 'everything's fucked' and 'maybe there's some hope after all' and you need a bit more than that. OR you need to say an awful lot less. nah its the writers fault, you think in the stone-age. Games are a medium and there are good and bad game-writers. Not necessarily, it depends on how much authority the writer has in the overall project. There's a thousand small ways that despite having a skilled writer on board you still get a shitty narrative. My (admittedly unresearched) belief is that the closer a lead writer is to the lead designer, especially if they're the same person, the stronger the narrative aspects will be. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On October 19 2015 18:45 BEARDiaguz wrote: It makes sense for Zeratul to have gone through a character change though. Seeing evidence that your entire galaxy is about to be made consumed is probably going to make anyone a bit glum and the existential angst of seeing the hybrid might take a bit of a toll. Imagine knowing that the only reason your species exists is so that it can be eventually merged with another and used as mind controlled puppets for an omnicidal demigod. Oh yeah, he also killed his leader and friend by the end of BW and went into exile. Might affect a guy, ya know? I think the problem with Zeratul is that for a guy who says a lot we don't get to see a lot of depth to his character. His role in the plot is not unlike Gandalf, someone who knows a whole bunch and has to get a bunch of characters to do stuff they would not do otherwise. But with Gandalf you had warmth, charm, a goodly nature to go along with that sense of wisdom and gravitas. With Zeratul he alternates between 'everything's fucked' and 'maybe there's some hope after all' and you need a bit more than that. OR you need to say an awful lot less. Also Gandalf always helped out when things were at its darkest. Zeratul cryptically appears and disappears at random times to order people around. He's kind of a dick now that I think about it. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
He has been doing his own thing since the end of BW, and dissapeared after a battle that saw the death of the Matriarch. He admits in HoTS to have done things that the Protoss will hate him for - they probably know of some of these, and have heard rumours of his dealings with Kerrigan. The "Causing the fall of Aiur" comment seemed more like a response to Zeratul wanting the invasion to halt. I don't think it has any relation to the order to arrest him other than Selendis telling him off. There is a lot of tension in the moment, and even though it has probably been determined long ago that Zeratul wasn't at fault, she likely still holds a grudge. In other words. Zeratul has been doing stuff that the Protoss don't like - including dealing with Kerrigan. They want to arrest him for this, and when he shows up interrupting their great moment, Selendis orders his arrest. When he persists in demanding that they turn back, she slings an insult - not an accusation - to his role in the fall of Aiur. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
Granted, perhaps just before this mission there is an explanation of some sort somewhere. But it's an intro mission so I'm not holding my breath. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 20 2015 00:07 phyvo wrote: As others have mentioned, regardless of whether an explanation or rational exists the cinematic is not very well explained. If you have to read into the story ways for characters to know things that we've never seen happen or scratch your head trying to figure why exactly X is angry with Y that's bad storytelling. This isn't a crazy mystery or political intrigue series here, you want the actions of your main characters to make sense at face value. Some recapping information or lines of dialogue where they actually explained their feelings to some extent ("you traitor you killed the matriarch" or somesuch thing) would help a great deal. But, despite amply opportunity to explain it, no one mentions why zeratul is a traitor and what bad things he has done. Granted, perhaps just before this mission there is an explanation of some sort somewhere. But, it's an intro mission, so I'm not holding my breath. Judging how the entire story is told from the tutorial mission is more than a bit naive. Or is Starcraft really just about a backwater station harvesting minerals and gas? | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
It's just that none of this has been brought up in SC2 yet so we're just kinda supposed to have played through Broodwar recently. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On October 20 2015 00:11 Thieving Magpie wrote: Judging how the entire story is told from the tutorial mission is more than a bit naive. Or is Starcraft really just about a backwater station harvesting minerals and gas? No, that is not the point I'm trying to make. This is episode 3. The way it's presented (and the situation in which it's presented) it doesn't seem like Zeratul's guilt is some kind of mystery we have to figure out. There's obviously something we have seen that's supposed to make this make sense. Yet people in here are confused. That ruins the dramatic moment. Instead of creating despair and tension when Zeratul's past bites his universe-saving goals in the butt they just made viewers think "what the crap is going on? Is he feeling guilty about this or that or both?" You're not going to get that moment back if you try to explain Zeratul's guilt later in the campaign. You have to explain before they decide to invade Aiur so that people don't get confused. Obviously it wasn't explained very well in WoL/HotS or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. This leaves only the time between booting up LotV and starting the intro mission. That's possible, but it's not a lot of room. That is why I said I'm not holding my breath. So no, I'm not criticizing the entire campaign. Effectively I'm criticizing the intro mission and the lack of Zeratul guilt explanation in WoL/HotS. Even if the reason is killing the matriarch in BW the viewer should not have to guess that, it should have been mentioned somewhere at least once. | ||
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HeatEXTEND
Netherlands836 Posts
On October 17 2015 16:37 hymn wrote: Guys, guys, games have crappy stories, *starts furiously throwing quarters at the But-What-About-Planescape:Torment™-O-Matic* | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 20 2015 00:55 phyvo wrote: No, that is not the point I'm trying to make. This is episode 3. The way it's presented (and the situation in which it's presented) it doesn't seem like Zeratul's guilt is some kind of mystery we have to figure out. There's obviously something we have seen that's supposed to make this make sense. Yet people in here are confused. That ruins the dramatic moment. Instead of creating despair and tension when Zeratul's past bites his universe-saving goals in the butt they just made viewers think "what the crap is going on? Is he feeling guilty about this or that or both?" You're not going to get that moment back if you try to explain Zeratul's guilt later in the campaign. You have to explain before they decide to invade Aiur so that people don't get confused. Obviously it wasn't explained very well in WoL/HotS or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. This leaves only the time between booting up LotV and starting the intro mission. That's possible, but it's not a lot of room. That is why I said I'm not holding my breath. So no, I'm not criticizing the entire campaign. Effectively I'm criticizing the intro mission and the lack of Zeratul guilt explanation in WoL/HotS. Even if the reason is killing the matriarch in BW the viewer should not have to guess that, it should have been mentioned somewhere at least once. But its not confusing at all. The Protoss say they are upset with him, that is all there is to know. Should it be dug deeper as to the how and why then it will be dug deeper. You can't have the conclusion at the beginning of a story or else King Arthur would be a king before he pulls the sword. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On October 20 2015 11:48 Thieving Magpie wrote: But its not confusing at all. The Protoss say they are upset with him, that is all there is to know. Should it be dug deeper as to the how and why then it will be dug deeper. You can't have the conclusion at the beginning of a story or else King Arthur would be a king before he pulls the sword. You just compared this to a major plot point of King Arthur (as if it had the proper build-up for that) and simultaneously said that it needn't have any sort of an explanation (what a lazy way to write, "wee, I can just change characters' feelings whenever I want for no reason!"). It's OK feel that way, that's your taste after all, if you have fun with it more power to you. But, regardless of our disagreement over how to tell a story, the fact is that people have been confused and have been arguing about this in the thread. Not everyone is as flexible as you are and as a writer you have to appeal to your whole audience. SC2 is a space opera trying to reach a mass market and so the writers are trying to write a good story for that market. If this thread is at all indicative of that audience then this cinematic is an example of bad writing simply because, instead of gripping us with what happened, we're here arguing about whether or not it's stupid. This one cinematic will hardly hurt the game significantly by itself but there is no doubt that it could have communicated better to the audience. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 20 2015 13:17 phyvo wrote: You just compared this to a major plot point of King Arthur (as if it had the proper build-up for that) and simultaneously said that it needn't have any sort of an explanation (what a lazy way to write, "wee, I can just change characters' feelings whenever I want for no reason!"). It's OK feel that way, that's your taste after all, if you have fun with it more power to you. But, regardless of our disagreement over how to tell a story, the fact is that people have been confused and have been arguing about this in the thread. Not everyone is as flexible as you are and as a writer you have to appeal to your whole audience. SC2 is a space opera trying to reach a mass market and so the writers are trying to write a good story for that market. If this thread is at all indicative of that audience then this cinematic is an example of bad writing simply because, instead of gripping us with what happened, we're here arguing about whether or not it's stupid. This one cinematic will hardly hurt the game significantly by itself but there is no doubt that it could have communicated better to the audience. There is only a tiny group confused--those who wants this to say more than it did. The rest simply take what they are given and wait till the whole story is told. Its not a matter of confusion, its a matter of whiny impatience. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On October 20 2015 13:33 Thieving Magpie wrote: There is only a tiny group confused--those who wants this to say more than it did. The rest simply take what they are given and wait till the whole story is told. Its not a matter of confusion, its a matter of whiny impatience. Tiny group, right. Well, this argument is obviously at the end of being productive. I'm done. If I continued we'd only argue more in circles for eternity. | ||
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Holybouseman
Poland27 Posts
If it is so, some of the Protoss might look at all Zeratul has done differently and for example question whether he really didn't know killing Zasz would reveal Aiur's location to the Overmind or whether he wasn't in league with Kerrigan when it came to killing Raszagal (after which he suddenly disappeared). After all, if one believes Zeratul is a traitor, he has every right to wonder how deep does his treachery go and whether some of his actions weren't a part of an evil plot. As for why Talis and Karass didn't act hostile towards Zeratul - well, Zeratul met Karass before he helped Kerrigan, so the High Templar didn't have any reason to be mad at Zeratul and Talis... One logical explanation is that the Protoss knew about Zeratul helping Kerrigan because they've had some observers on Zerus... and, either Talis was too far away from Shakuras to hear the news or Artanis decided to keep this knowledge a secret to avoid pissing off the Dark Templar by accusing one of their heroes of treason just before the invasion. --- It can all be explained one way or another, but... If they come back to this a bit later and explain why and how the Protoss hate Zeratul - I'm fine with that little mystery being there, but if they just leave it as it is, that's just poor writing. | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
HOTS has no joy especially those 'missions' where you get zerg units with diff abilities. They are just walk through and i don't feel like i earn those units. Those 'missions' were merely just wasting a few minutes so i can use their abilities in the game. For me, I expect LOTV the same as WOL and HOTS. You can access diff missions at your own order and each time you unify a tribe, your units gain some extra damage, extra health, or some other abilities. This is the same formula. I just like to see how the prophecy is fulfilled and the Protoss join forces w/ Zerg and Terran to defeat Amon. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 20 2015 18:10 BigRedDog wrote: I just hope the game play is much more difficult than HOTS. HOTS has no joy especially those 'missions' where you get zerg units with diff abilities. They are just walk through and i don't feel like i earn those units. Those 'missions' were merely just wasting a few minutes so i can use their abilities in the game. For me, I expect LOTV the same as WOL and HOTS. You can access diff missions at your own order and each time you unify a tribe, your units gain some extra damage, extra health, or some other abilities. This is the same formula. I just like to see how the prophecy is fulfilled and the Protoss join forces w/ Zerg and Terran to defeat Amon. Really all we really want is a 2.5-3.0 hours Blizzard Cinematic. No need for gameplay, just show us 3 hours of story. It'd be grand. Then do a 6 part mini-series each episode 2-3 hours long of just SC1 => BW story in nothing but the current Blizz cinematics. | ||
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
On a positive side I hope the LotV missions themselves give me as much fun as the WoL campaign which I actually really liked a lot. HotS, not so much. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 20 2015 17:36 Holybouseman wrote: Zeratul is responsible for Kerrigan becoming Queen of Blades once again - after all, he's the one who told Kerrigan about Zerus. This fact alone is way more than enough to have the other Protoss hate Zeratul and see him as a traitor. Let's be honest here, if any of you had an extremely powerful enemy that suddenly lost a great deal of her power and then one of the people you considered to be a friend went and helped that enemy regain all of the lost power or maybe even become more powerful than she was before, you'd see this as a treason too. If it is so, some of the Protoss might look at all Zeratul has done differently and for example question whether he really didn't know killing Zasz would reveal Aiur's location to the Overmind or whether he wasn't in league with Kerrigan when it came to killing Raszagal (after which he suddenly disappeared). After all, if one believes Zeratul is a traitor, he has every right to wonder how deep does his treachery go and whether some of his actions weren't a part of an evil plot. As for why Talis and Karass didn't act hostile towards Zeratul - well, Zeratul met Karass before he helped Kerrigan, so the High Templar didn't have any reason to be mad at Zeratul and Talis... One logical explanation is that the Protoss knew about Zeratul helping Kerrigan because they've had some observers on Zerus... and, either Talis was too far away from Shakuras to hear the news or Artanis decided to keep this knowledge a secret to avoid pissing off the Dark Templar by accusing one of their heroes of treason just before the invasion. --- It can all be explained one way or another, but... If they come back to this a bit later and explain why and how the Protoss hate Zeratul - I'm fine with that little mystery being there, but if they just leave it as it is, that's just poor writing. It's worth pointing out that 'high'-protoss are likely to mistrust Dark Templar because 'high'-protoss share all their thoughts via the Khala (collective conscious and all that) while the Dark Templar no longer have a connection to the Khala so their intentions are never truly known. But let's be real, Zeratul was instrumental in bringing down the Overmind, saving the Aiur refugees, defending Shakuras and generally putting in work to uncover the mysteries of the universe. Moreover note that Artanis is implied to be the player during the SC1 (not BW) campaign so he fucking knows all of this. Artanis man, you dun goofed on this one. | ||
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Nightshade.i
2 Posts
1) He is one of the reasons why the Overmind reached Aiur. 2) Zeratul abandoned the other Protoss after Broodwar instead of taking the lead of the Dark Templars. 3) He remade the Queen of Blades by assisting Kerrigan in reaching Zerus. 4) He boarded a capital ship as a stowaway, appeared within firing range of the leader of the Protoss and wanted him to stop reclaiming the Protoss homeworld. 5) Something else? Looking at the points in order: 1) it is plausible that Selendis resents Zeratul for that. She knows the events of the first war and even if Zeratul was instrumental in the fall of the original Overmind, she might still be angered by that; 2) this can be seen as treachery, but the missions in WoL show that other protoss (both Nerazim and Khalai) do not care about this; 3) many state that the Protoss do not know about the Queen of Blades rebirth, but even if Kerrigan killed every protoss escapin Kaldir, the attack of the Zerg to the Dominion probably didn't go unnoticed, so it is possible that the Protoss know about her rebirth and her "disappearance" after the toppling of the Dominion (unless the events of LotV are contemporary to the events of HotS). 4) this along the first one is the most plausible (or at least I think). 5) I hope not. Or may be I'm utterly wrong. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Nightshade.i
2 Posts
On October 21 2015 21:24 outscar wrote: Where are goddamn dragoons? WoL = no dragoons, HotS = no dragoons, Whispers of Oblivion - pre-order = no dragoons, 1st mission of LotV = no goons. Technology to produce new Dragoons was lost with Aiur (in the lore) so... Probably you will get them after the first mission. Either it is stored in the Spear of Adun or is salvaged from Aiur + Show Spoiler + before they escape again. | ||
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blackwolf
Denmark157 Posts
This at a time in which the protoss people surely needed him. He was after all one of the great leaders of the protoss, a war hero, and Raszagal even mentions that she wanted him to lead the dark templars after she died, iirc. To have such a person simply vanish might make the majority of the protoss feel betrayed. It is important to remember that the other protoss knew nothing of his research into Amon. To them he simply vanished. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
I'm just baffled at why they're just now bringing up Aiur's downfall as a reason to get this mad at Zeratul. There are plenty of other more recent reasons to brand him as a traitor, but I dunno why they specifically brought up Aiur when he's easily gotten plenty of help and support since then. Maybe they just recently found out about the accidental mind link? Otherwise, I think it's just sloppy writing. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 20 2015 23:35 Swift118 wrote: I am not expecting greatness from a story in an RTS, but at least give me something cool and present it in a decent fashion ffs. In the HotS trailer I knew what was in store when we had the very imaginative quote from Kerrigan "Vengeance shall be mine, for I am the Queen of blades." Like really that is some serious catering to the balloon heads. Could almost be WoW dialogue. It was like D3. I knew that game was fucked when I got to the first proper boss the Skeleton King and his attempt of intimidation was: "You will never defeat me, yayahhahahahaaha." Really offensive dogshit writing right there, and it got worse as I progressed further into the game. On a positive side I hope the LotV missions themselves give me as much fun as the WoL campaign which I actually really liked a lot. HotS, not so much. Actually no, you didn't really listen to the Skeleton King. Play the game again, listen to all his sound bytes throughout the game, listen to him talk to prisoners and even his own wife in cut scenes in the dungeon, and then (after all the context of who he was before he become the skeleton king) listen to how much of him is gone, how more like a puppet or drone he is, his language in tatters, barely able to make more than a few phrases. His eloquence gone, his heart absent, just a pile of bones corrupted by the prime evils. The rest of the acts were shit--but you used the one good piece of writing in D3 as your pariah. You were mistaken. | ||
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