|
I remember they said they would scrap some units before adding others at some point before HotS. For instance, remove SHs, introduce lurkers ; remove colossus, introduce disruptors. Wouldn't it have made much more sense ? They're stacking up units over units, and I wonder what will come from that mess.
I selfishly want all the units in the game, but I agree they've created a big mess with too many units too fast. I think they seriously need to add like 2 tech buildings pr. race that unlock units. It's pretty insane that a guy can make a Star Gate, you scout it and basically have no clue what's coming since every building adds 2-3 extra units.
|
After the last patch, I actually downloaded Wc3 instead (Break since WOL was released).
While it has it's flaws (relatively stale metagame, no patches or mapchanges for ages, hackers..) I will list a few points where I feel it is far superior, and specially when you compare it to hots and lotv (wol was pretty solid)
- You only have 1-3 units dealing terrible terrible damage (heroes) and alot of the terrible damage can be mitigated through items (aoe heals and so on)
- Saving units, or even denying kills by killing your own units yourself denies xp. You can do this because everything isn't happening at lightning speed with terrible terrible damage
- Going quickly for deathballs isn't really a thing because of income tax over 50 food, or even bigger income tax over 80 food (max 100). It's a bit artificial, but it does it's job and it offers choice (Do I break upkeep, or do I spend money on items & get a bank before breaking upkeep).
- The top tier was more stable than sc2 post-wol. This suggests to me that it was enough room for the best to shine, even with much less macro focus. Foreigners could compete, even without sweatshop-style of Korea
- Pathing less good, so you can actually do alot of sexy micro and you also need to work a bit harder for optimal engagement. (Last bit is debatable, but it's the opinion I landed on)
I'll also invent a new term. CMPG - Clutch Moment Per Game
Clutch moment includes, but is not limited to:
- Trapping a hero with no portal with my walking unitproducing tree, push his base while he cant get out.
- Staffing out a unit with 5% hp several times per game
- Killing 1 unit by bodyblocking with a wisp (has no attack). 1 unit can be huge because of XP and relative cost of units.
- After a fight, coming back to a base with 5 red units and healing them all the way back
- Activating lifesaving item while a coil (direct damage) is in the air coming towards me, and doing so with full confidence with the low delay. Wasted 70 mana for him, while saving the hero life or the hp it would devour.
I can with confidence say that the CMPG in Wc3 faaar outpaces Sc2, at least if you look at it from a 'Not pro korean' perspective post WOL. If it was still supported with patches, I wouldn't give a shit if it had 20 people watching tournaments. The game is just better, specially if it had the support Sc2 has today.
/Rant
|
On September 22 2015 06:28 Warcloud wrote:I'm going to go ahead and assume you are a protoss player. Show nested quote +It's simply a low risk high reward strategy that can ALWAYS work if your opponent doesn't pay full attention to it for just about 2 seconds You just described every single strategy in the entire game. Show nested quote +Innovation recently went even further and went for speed burrow mine drop which just destroyed zest (I'm sure someone will say Zest failed here, I don't care, it's just an example to make a point and discuss a strategy) And here we see that the one example you could concoct to depict widow mine drops as imbalanced, you admit is actually a bad example. So I am wondering where the bodies are. Maru actually made mine drops a thing for a time. If it was that effective, why did he stop doing it? The answer is because the protoss players were scouting it, making 1 cannon, (or, you know, the oracles they make every game anyway) and losing nothing. It's not cost effective to do if it gets scouted, even by an amateur player. Except, you know, the protoss anti-air unit. This quote really sums up your flawed approach to Starcraft. What game are you playing that the game ought be to fought out in a big 1 vs. 1 attack? If the game were played that way, protoss would win everything. That is the protoss strength, yes, but you cannot utilize that strength until you learn to properly defend aggression and counter-attack.
1. I'm mid masters with every race but main Zerg.
2. That's the most senseless thing I've heard in a while.
3. Maru (or any other Terran in the world) playing it less doesn't mean it's not viable anymore. There are other options that work aswell. You don't have to play WM drop, but it is still viable and they still do enough damage for the terran to come out ahead, even on top korean level. Scouting does pretty much nothing to it. That's another point. You still need detection (+enough units, especially when paired with a marine poke) in time and position to defend it. Pros should know when it hits, but it still does damage or kills at least a few probes most of the time. Or hell even if it doesn't or the terran tries to fly in exactly where the stalkers are. He just flies away (thanks boost) and the game is still really really even. Oh and you think it cost-efficient for a Protoss to build an early forge +2 cannons, often times even inside the mineral line, when a terran builds buildings he needs anyways and units he can also use for other purposes? If you drop the widow mine(s) on top of a cannon you're just a retard.
4. Pheonix have never really been a good and reliable unit in PvT. There is a reason we see Pheonix Colossus so rarely. Unless you got very many Pheonix, which are quite costly you know btw, doomdrops are still possible if the protoss is not perfectly in position. Boosted Medivacs got the same speed as pheonix btw and 8 seconds are enough for Medivacs to fly inside a base.
Pheonix are kind of a possibility, but if you'd be forced to play them, there would be plenty other openings and ways terran could get ahead. Most notably the greed road.
5. You're interpreting skills need to be sharpened aswell my friend. I've never said that the game should be this way. In fact I'm thinking the exact opposite. Many smaller engagements are way better for everyone. What I'm saying that is wrong is, that there often is a chance for a Terran to force a draw or even still win a game, even though he fell behind OVER TIME and should not win the game anymore, since he could never win a fight anymore.
To follow your kind act of misinterpreting me completely wrong: I can only assume you're a frustrated Terran player, who's micro is too bad to win engagements against Protoss armies even when ahead and then cry when doomdropping over and over doesn't work, since you completely outplayed him with your awesome multitasking. Outskilled amiright?
|
Medivac boost wasn't necessary at all to begin with. Drop play was never dead or underused in WoL. On top of that it gave decent players their own identity to differ from others like "that ones drop micro and usage is outstanding".
But Blizzard destroyed that with their "we recently saw that [xyz] strategy and want to push that abit more" flawed philosophy.
|
this is just anecdotal discussion for OP; if reply does not agree with him then it is offensive because it does not fit into his experience.
this thread is just narcissistic rather than for discussion
|
At least in WoL terran had reliable lategame in form of ghosts+vikings. Now it is completely obsolete cause tempests. So you can not just force every TvP to be blobcraft with deathballs from each side. Boost is the only thing that prevents this scenario.
|
On September 22 2015 06:58 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I remember they said they would scrap some units before adding others at some point before HotS. For instance, remove SHs, introduce lurkers ; remove colossus, introduce disruptors. Wouldn't it have made much more sense ? They're stacking up units over units, and I wonder what will come from that mess.
Then they realized there is still space on the Zerg larva command card. Or hell make the symbols smaller and create more space. I can only guess that adding 1 unit per race plus only minor changes didn't feel enough for them to call it a new expansion and people might cry how it's a full prize game while it feels like a bigger patch. Without removing old units, what I wouldn't have liked, that's the only reasoning I can imagine to be honest.
I also think that WoL with some minor changes to existing Units could've been an awesome game people would still enjoy to this day in mass.
|
On September 22 2015 07:27 BeStFAN wrote:
this is just anecdotal discussion for OP; if reply does not agree with him then it is offensive because it does not fit into his experience.
this thread is just narcissistic rather than for discussion
I was not personaly offended by his reply. I just think his replies were horrible and made no sense for the most part. What do you disagree with from what I replied to him? I do know that Medivac boost also allows for cool things, but I don't think they justify the flaws and abuse of the ability.
And to the comment with Tempests and Ghost Viking lategame. You're right, while Tempests were an okay design against Broodlords (even though they were no problem anymore anyways the first like 2 years of hots because of swarmhosts), they created problems in lategame PvT. This again does not justify Medivac Boost so games will never go to a legit lategame. It just shows that Tempests weren't completely thought through aswell.
|
At the moment I think tvp is an extremely boring matchup because you just see protoss turtling the first 20 minutes and terran attacking. If the protoss defends well he wins if not he loses.
However I don't think medivac boost is a problem, the problem is just that protoss has no options to be aggressive in the matchup (outside of allins) because they are forced to turtle to the critical mass of collossus ht before moving out.
if protoss had an equally strong midgame army as the terran it would be far better, during the chargelot ht era we saw some really good back and forth tvps.
the wm plus shield damage buff is imo the biggest mistake DK has ever done, and I don't understand at all why he did it because it goes completely against his philosophy of entertaining the viewer.
|
I totally with a lot of things said in this thread. So much of this game right now is based around the ability to get behind the other player and his mineral lines. This means most of the action seems to be centered around the other person's base, until the final battle. It basically takes away aspects like positioning and map control and defenders adv The fact the Bliz keeps more and more units that enforce backdoor tactics is disheartening. The reaper is better, the warp prism is better, mediav boost is the same, the adept is ridiculously annoying, the liberator's siege on bases, buff to overlord drop, the many additions of destructible rocks, not to mention the oracle
Lots of these "backdoor" units are fun to use when you outwit an opponent, but when you have to spend endless time chasing than its makes the game arduous and frustrating.
But then again the way siege units and 200/200 armies interact it would be hard to justify taking away all harass.
Perhaps the harass and backdoor stuff needs huge buff late game, so folks don't sit their asses on 200 supplies and wait, but needs a nerf early/mid game...which would make the game more playable
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
