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WCS Season 3 Finals Recap: Beauty in the Struggle

Forum Index > SC2 General
76 CommentsPost a Reply
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WCS Season 3 Finals Recap: Beauty in the Struggle

Text bystuchiu
Graphics byMeru
September 13th, 2015 22:10 GMT
2015 WCS Season 3

WCS Season Three
Premier League Recap



WCS Season Three Premier League Recap

Brackets and standings on Liquipedia

The Beauty in the Struggle



“I know I have failed many times. But the failures and struggles I faced made victory all the more meaningful.” - Bomber

When we talk about the foreign scene now, it becomes all too easy for fans to bash on their lack of success. No foreigner won a premier despite getting close multiple times in 2013. Sen was the only foreigner to win a Premier in 2014. In 2015 the first two seasons of WCS were won by Polt and Hydra. Yet that is an oversimplification of the inherent struggles that a foreigner pro has to face when they play Starcraft 2 as well as a complete misunderstanding of the increasing competitive difficulty in the scene.

[image loading]

To put things into perspective, the amount of total competitive Korean players was doubled once the move over of KeSPa from BW to SC2. Yes there has been mass retirements since then and the overall pool of players is actually lower now than it was at the end of 2012, however with it came better infrastructure, training and coaching for SC2 players over in Korea. Foreigners can and have put in similar hours of work into the game as the Koreans, but it is never quite as efficient and the Korean ladder will always be superior. In addition to that if you are born outside of Europe or the West/East Coast of NA, it's hard to connect to any server with decent latency at all much to the woe of players in SEA/CN. (Jim’s entire style for instance was created with the expectation of always playing in 400 ping environments).

And then comes the economics of the scene. Europe is full of online cups, locals, nationals and international lans, but for smaller scenes like SA or SEA, there is nothing comparable and so they are left landlocked unless an outside team like ROOT or mYi picks them up.

Yet the Korean struggle is no less. They work just as hard if not harder to the point of often burning out their players. Some have played 14 hours a day for years before they retired without a single result to their name. And they do this knowing that they are essentially selling their youths to work full time in a career that has no transferable skills once their pro-career is over. And at the end of all of that is 2 years of military service.

I say all of this not to start a pity war over who has it the hardest, but to make you understand that it takes a certain quality of crazy and passion to become an SC2 pro player. There are no more easy breaks for anyone, you could pay your own way to play in WCS EU, win your only Championship after years of hardship and pain and then be called a faceless Korean for daring to fulfill your dream. You could spend years playing and practicing SC2, but not have anything to show for it until after you retire.

For foreigners in particular, they are always fighting a legacy of their predecessors. Fans often wax nostalgic about the days of players like idra, Huk, Stephano or Naniwa. Days when it was expected to have a foreigner hope that could battle the Koreans and win. Yet they never take into account the increased competitiveness, the decreasing chances to prove yourself, the amount of hard work is needed to put into the game and the very likely chance that nothing could come of it.

The trophies of the Champions is bloodied by the countless broken hopes and dreams of the players they crushed along the way.

[image loading]

Yet despite that, year after year, season after season we see players both new and old get up to challenge for it again. And that was part of what made this WCS Season 3 so magical. Players like Has or Hitman used to be reviled for their cheesy aggressive styles, but have since become two of the most beloved foreigners in the scene for being complete unflinching and shameless in who they are.

At the same time you saw players rise up after years of dedication, players like Zanster (with an untimely drop out by Hitman), GungfuBanda and Petraeus have strong runs. Petraeus has proven that even after retirement that he has what it takes to challenge for a Championship. Zanster has already sworn that he will be back next year to take the crown.



Yet the runaway story has to go to three people: The Polish Crowd, Lilbow and Mana. The Polish have always congregated in large numbers for SC2 events and this time it was no different. In a scene where daed game is a constantly spreading meme, it was drowned out by the roars and enthusiasm of the Poles. And because of their exuberance, because of their passion,the atmosphere became electric and the victories became all the more meaningful for players to fight for.

And out of this arena came two players: Lilbow and Mana. Lilbow spent years practicing to finally break out last season as he made it all the way to the finals before losing to Hydra. This time Lilbow won and cemented his place as the best foreigner in Europe. On the other sid was Mana. A player whose run could be termed as a miracle.

While Mana was respected among pros and fans, no one had pegged him for championship material. Yet round after round, game after game, series after series, just when it looked like his time had come up, Mana would find that inner strength, that inner determination to go the extra mile to win. It was an astounding feat when you think about how it has been 3 years since his peak in WoL and he has never been even close to winning a tournament throughout all of HotS. Yet in the very last WCS, in front of his country, Mana stood up for one more night to carry the hopes of his country alive, to defeat ForGG and to give us the first ever WCS all foreigner finals. Lilbow carried the hopes and dreams of the foreigner world as a victory here would ensure his place as the only foreigner at Blizzcon.

[image loading]

Perhaps the detractors are right. We may never see another Stephano or Naniwa or HuK again. We may never see a foreigner rise up to consistently challenge for a spot to be one of the best players in the world. But there is beauty in the struggle. That disappointments and failures can become badges of honor. And sometimes you don’t fail, despite everything. Sometimes you succeed and when that happens, there is something incredible, something magical in that moment. And this time we got to see it between Lilbow and Mana on the grandest stage WCS has ever given us. And this time we will see Lilbow rise up to become the second foreigner ever to attend Blizzcon.



Writers: stuchiu
Editors: stuchiu.
Graphics: Meru.
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Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17677 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-13 22:32:16
September 13 2015 22:17 GMT
#2
Lilbow is not 100% confirmed for Blizzcon yet! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24856682
Close enough I guess lol
"Expert" mods4ever.com
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24209 Posts
September 13 2015 22:25 GMT
#3
Great write-up. Awesome week-end. Brilliant crowd.

Of course I don't like the winner but everything else was so good A superb week for my cherished game.
Faefae
Profile Joined June 2014
2203 Posts
September 13 2015 22:26 GMT
#4
"I really want champion and... but... Everytime i failed but this time I success"
ForGG. 29/11/2014
Rehio
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1718 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-13 22:39:13
September 13 2015 22:26 GMT
#5
"players like Zanster (with an untimely drop out by Hitman)"

Wasn't that Elazer?

Edit: I feel like every time I comment on an article it's to nitpick at something. ;_; I'm sorry, I really love the TL articles, thank you for writing them.

Edit2: " On the other sid was Mana" .. >.>
VHbb
Profile Joined October 2014
689 Posts
September 13 2015 22:30 GMT
#6
Were the people in the crowd, at the end after Lilbow victory, chanting "Starcraft! Starcraft! Starcraft!" .. ? That was a very nice moment..

Great tournament overall, I missed the quarterfinal matches, but the semis and finals were amazing.. go Lilbow, now to Blizzcon

p.s. usually when we have a foreigner vs korean final it's quite natural to cheer for the foreigner.. this time I was really unsure about my favorite between Lilbow and Mana ! I wish we had more finals like this in the foreigner scene.. really nice! :D
My life for Aiur !
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24209 Posts
September 13 2015 23:00 GMT
#7
Love Zanster's tweet. I hope what happened is a huge motivation boost for all the foreign community.
Curufinwe Feanor
Profile Joined August 2012
Brazil91 Posts
September 13 2015 23:03 GMT
#8
Lilbow: A shorty frenchman taking armies into victory after victory... It's Napoleon himself reborn!!!
Aure Entüluva
TheDougler
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada8304 Posts
September 13 2015 23:15 GMT
#9
Wonderful write-up as always. Beautiful weekend.
I root for Euro Zergs, NA Protoss* and Korean Terrans. (Any North American who has beat a Korean Pro as Protoss counts as NA Toss)
grogburg
Profile Blog Joined December 2014
United States329 Posts
September 13 2015 23:20 GMT
#10
Fantastic write-up! Lots of emotion.
<3 BaseTradeTV <3
Boucot
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
France15997 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-14 01:33:23
September 14 2015 00:31 GMT
#11
It's so incredible to seeing hard work finally pay off. Lilbow was one of the best european for a veryyy long time. But even after each set back and bad performance he just kept practicing and improving, and finally it pays off. This is so inspiring for every other pro gamers out there.

PtitDrogo

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/3ktgp8/wcs_2015_season_3_grand_finals_results/cv0byve


What a day, what a lovely day.
Former SC2 writer for Millenium - twitter.com/Boucot
stefan16
Profile Joined June 2014
103 Posts
September 14 2015 01:16 GMT
#12
So it finally happens huh.

Kinda had feeling if it gonna happen it will happen this season. All the koreans looked shaky, struggling, and far from consistent.
vult
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States9400 Posts
September 14 2015 01:38 GMT
#13
Great write up. Such a magical weekend, the foreign scene I hope becomes a bit revitalized with this result.
I used to play random, but for you I play very specifically.
Nezgar
Profile Joined December 2012
Germany534 Posts
September 14 2015 01:48 GMT
#14
I am so happy with how this turned out...
I got really tired of the same koreans farming the foreigner WCS for the last few years, having a real foreigner win the whole thing was awesome.
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
September 14 2015 02:06 GMT
#15
The crowd was easily the best crowd at a SC2 event in years. Great turn out, great games, great weekend
Adept
Profile Joined December 2009
United States472 Posts
September 14 2015 02:28 GMT
#16
Still can't get over how amazing this WCS season was :D
"HSC casting is essentially an LR thread read aloud." -ThomasjServo
TL+ Member
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
September 14 2015 03:10 GMT
#17
This was the best tournament playoff in a long time, the crowd was really amazing, close to no stream problems (by esports standart at lest) congrats to everyone involve, and of course to Lilbow!

Not the champion I wanted but I have to say that seeing him now I am very happy.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
PartyBiscuit
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada4525 Posts
September 14 2015 04:01 GMT
#18
A nice way to end it
the farm ends here
XiZeL
Profile Joined July 2014
Switzerland92 Posts
September 14 2015 05:34 GMT
#19
Stephano v2
I watch more starcraft than i play it
agsub
Profile Joined May 2012
Singapore368 Posts
September 14 2015 06:05 GMT
#20
Grats to lilbow!
NeThZOR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
South Africa7387 Posts
September 14 2015 06:06 GMT
#21
It's no matter how hard I cheered for Lilbow, the only real thing that mattered was that we had a foreigner finals for the first time in years!
SuperNova - 2015 | SKT1 fan for years | Dear, FlaSh, PartinG, Soulkey, Naniwa
Ragnarork
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
France9034 Posts
September 14 2015 09:44 GMT
#22
On September 14 2015 15:06 NeThZOR wrote:
It's no matter how hard I cheered for Lilbow, the only real thing that mattered was that we had a foreigner finals for the first time in years!


This is something truly amazing. And in a tournament with Polt, Hydra, ForGG nonetheless...

#2015YearOfTheForeigners
LiquipediaWanderer
MavivaM
Profile Joined November 2011
1535 Posts
September 14 2015 12:07 GMT
#23
nitpick: Idra is not capitalised (gonna edit and remove this)

This said, I'm happy to notice that I'm not the only one who was moved by Zanster's tweet.
Mana did indeed play thebest run of his all career, and Lilbow proved not onlt that he can make it twice to a WCS final, but win it as well.

But overall, the foreign scene did well at the whole event: Neeb did his job against Stardust, Elazer was on the verge of beating both Polt and Hydra and Sen's longevity is a record by itself.
The foreign scene is not dead, but well alive as results prove: let's hope for it to improve more and more!
Foreigners fighting!
Your Opinion has been counted. Only 3 more Opinions needed for a reddit thread.
Hoofit
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom128 Posts
September 14 2015 12:24 GMT
#24
A great tournament and one I am very glad I watched.
D-light
Profile Joined April 2012
Finland7364 Posts
September 14 2015 13:10 GMT
#25
Had a couple of cool moments, but overall a pretty lackluster season. Well, hopefully with LotV the people can get more out of even foreigner (level korean) starcraft eventually.

On September 14 2015 08:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Love Zanster's tweet. I hope what happened is a huge motivation boost for all the foreign community.

Surely now without most of the good Koreans the foreigners will make each other stronger by playing and planning together.
why even
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
September 14 2015 13:15 GMT
#26
see guys i wasn't lying when i said it could happen
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
September 14 2015 13:19 GMT
#27
Stuchiu always writing the articles filled with emotion d:
Also why put the pic of Grubby crying, I regret him ))):
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
BoYoB
Profile Joined March 2011
France83 Posts
September 14 2015 14:40 GMT
#28
How's that supposed to be a Ro8 situation where you can expect to win the title ?
[image loading]
Neemi
Profile Joined August 2012
Netherlands656 Posts
September 14 2015 14:41 GMT
#29
On September 14 2015 22:19 OtherWorld wrote:
Stuchiu always writing the articles filled with emotion d:
Also why put the pic of Grubby crying, I regret him ))):


Remember that was his moment of triumph, beating Mvp to advance to the quarter-finals right after he won the WCS 2013 Season 1. WCS 2013 Season 2 will still go down as the most emotional for me overall, but this was a close second. Thanks for writing this recap!
Cute
Pembar
Profile Joined November 2011
297 Posts
September 14 2015 14:54 GMT
#30
On September 14 2015 23:40 BoYoB wrote:
How's that supposed to be a Ro8 situation where you can expect to win the title ?


That comeback was amazing.
MrMischelito
Profile Joined February 2014
347 Posts
September 14 2015 15:02 GMT
#31
Awesome!
MrMischelito
Profile Joined February 2014
347 Posts
September 14 2015 15:04 GMT
#32
On September 14 2015 23:40 BoYoB wrote:
How's that supposed to be a Ro8 situation where you can expect to win the title ?
[image loading]

more awesome!!!
True_Spike
Profile Joined July 2004
Poland3424 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-14 15:50:27
September 14 2015 15:48 GMT
#33
In case anyone is interested, one of the Netwars people posted some photos:

http://imgur.com/a/p0l0b
https://www.flickr.com/photos/132308195@N03/sets/72157658107909598
BoYoB
Profile Joined March 2011
France83 Posts
September 14 2015 16:29 GMT
#34
This tournament was obviously french favored :
[image loading]
BoYoB
Profile Joined March 2011
France83 Posts
September 14 2015 16:33 GMT
#35
On September 15 2015 00:48 True_Spike wrote:
In case anyone is interested, one of the Netwars people posted some photos:

http://imgur.com/a/p0l0b
https://www.flickr.com/photos/132308195@N03/sets/72157658107909598


How can we thank netwars.pl guys for their involvement in making this event so enthusiast and alive ? I tried to register on their forum but I didn't succeeded.
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
September 14 2015 16:36 GMT
#36
On September 14 2015 23:54 Pembar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2015 23:40 BoYoB wrote:
How's that supposed to be a Ro8 situation where you can expect to win the title ?


That comeback was amazing.

It wasn't really a comeback in that game, Hydra just died to a counter attack that's 100% guaranteed to happen after you snipe that nexus.
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
True_Spike
Profile Joined July 2004
Poland3424 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-14 16:46:59
September 14 2015 16:44 GMT
#37
On September 15 2015 01:33 BoYoB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2015 00:48 True_Spike wrote:
In case anyone is interested, one of the Netwars people posted some photos:

http://imgur.com/a/p0l0b
https://www.flickr.com/photos/132308195@N03/sets/72157658107909598


How can we thank netwars.pl guys for their involvement in making this event so enthusiast and alive ? I tried to register on their forum but I didn't succeeded.


Netwars has an invite based registration system - you can't register unless someone with an account recommends you. The forums are in polish only, so I'm not sure how of use an account would be for a foreigner. If you wish, you can probably join the facebook netwars group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/169058999829203/), but, once again - all of it is in polish.

Just be supportive of the game, show up for any events you can and scream your lungs out whenever you're there - that's all the support we need

Netwars also does a fundraiser before every offline event (all of the money raised goes towards flags, banners and other similar materials), but I don't think TL.net staff would be happy if I posted information about them here.
Sharkken
Profile Joined October 2012
Jordan141 Posts
September 14 2015 16:46 GMT
#38
That series against Hydra AWWWWWWWWW Maaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!
Liquid HerO Best Toss in the World
KaiserCommander
Profile Joined April 2010
Mexico290 Posts
September 14 2015 17:48 GMT
#39
Congratulations Lilbow, always rooting for the foreig players.
Jinro, Polt, Bomber, ForGG, MajOr, Flash, Maru. Terran Fighting...
Makro
Profile Joined March 2011
France16890 Posts
September 14 2015 17:54 GMT
#40
nice as always stuchiu

i will always remember that tournament, the crowd, venue, games and players (and that storyline)

no other words
Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of shitposting, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".
TL+ Member
PuddleZerg
Profile Joined August 2015
United States82 Posts
September 14 2015 18:10 GMT
#41
That narrative for MaNa though.
"Weapons grade autism" - Destiny
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24209 Posts
September 14 2015 18:22 GMT
#42
On September 14 2015 23:40 BoYoB wrote:
How's that supposed to be a Ro8 situation where you can expect to win the title ?
[image loading]

ha ha indeed
Makro
Profile Joined March 2011
France16890 Posts
September 14 2015 18:55 GMT
#43
On September 15 2015 00:48 True_Spike wrote:
In case anyone is interested, one of the Netwars people posted some photos:

http://imgur.com/a/p0l0b
https://www.flickr.com/photos/132308195@N03/sets/72157658107909598

how did i miss that, thanks for sharing

netwars is a world class community
Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of shitposting, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".
TL+ Member
Boucot
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
France15997 Posts
September 14 2015 19:42 GMT
#44
On September 15 2015 03:55 Makro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2015 00:48 True_Spike wrote:
In case anyone is interested, one of the Netwars people posted some photos:

http://imgur.com/a/p0l0b
https://www.flickr.com/photos/132308195@N03/sets/72157658107909598

how did i miss that, thanks for sharing

netwars is a world class community

The second link is ShortID's album from Millenium.

But yeah, the Netwars guys are amazing, probably the closest we've got from a football supporters group.
Former SC2 writer for Millenium - twitter.com/Boucot
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
September 14 2015 19:47 GMT
#45
On September 14 2015 23:40 BoYoB wrote:
How's that supposed to be a Ro8 situation where you can expect to win the title ?
[image loading]

Possibly one of the only times someone has came back from 0-3 in a BO5 o_o.
BoYoB
Profile Joined March 2011
France83 Posts
September 14 2015 20:46 GMT
#46
On September 15 2015 04:47 ZAiNs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2015 23:40 BoYoB wrote:
How's that supposed to be a Ro8 situation where you can expect to win the title ?
[image loading]

Possibly one of the only times someone has came back from 0-3 in a BO5 o_o.

hahaha ! Good one.
I was an inch close to shutdown Twitch when it happened. I suppose a lot of french fans did.
FrostPilot
Profile Joined August 2015
31 Posts
September 14 2015 21:10 GMT
#47

I was an inch close to shutdown Twitch when it happened. I suppose a lot of french fans did.

At that point I thought "That's it!" and went to the kitchen to get some coffee.
When I came back - "What the hell? Why are they still playing?"

Great tournament, great players, great audience ... great days for StarCraft 2.
Boucot
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
France15997 Posts
September 14 2015 23:14 GMT
#48
Even the french gouvernement is proud of Lilbow.

Former SC2 writer for Millenium - twitter.com/Boucot
Starecat
Profile Joined August 2014
938 Posts
September 14 2015 23:44 GMT
#49
Holy shit that was big.
:3
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24209 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-15 00:09:26
September 15 2015 00:08 GMT
#50
On September 15 2015 08:14 Boucot wrote:
Even the french gouvernement is proud of Lilbow.

https://twitter.com/gouvernementFR/status/643523599060574208

wow

I have to say that tickles my patriotic fiber
Ensiferum8
Profile Joined March 2014
Canada103 Posts
September 15 2015 00:13 GMT
#51
If the mods want to ban me because they dont accept my opinion, its their choice, but honestly:

IMO

It was a really pathetic WCS

I hate the Blizzcon point system, its completly unfair.

First, the quality of the games were really bad (compared to GSL, SSL, or the insanely great PL final we saw just before).

I mean, common! Mana? Zanster??? In semi finals of what is supposed to be a really prestigious tournament?

If its a joke, its not funny.

But, what I hate the most, is that the system is completly unfair. It rewards players based on where they are born, instead of whos the best.

Look at blizzcon ranking: Lilbow? polt? maybe forGG?

With all due respect, these players all are in Blizzcon, or really close, while player like

soO, Dream, TY, stats etc... ARE OUT

Fun fact: TY would beat the wcs player in 90% of the game, just like soO etc....

But thanks to WCS, foreigners that have 0 chance, and IMO, clearly dont deserve to be there, gets free pass because they are born outside of Korea.

Imagine yourself in TY's shoes...

You play insanely well (all kill CJ, semi in SSL etc...), but because some random foreigner (lilbow) beats another even more random and no name foreigner (zanster!, mana!)

TY is out. Even if TY is WAY BETTER than lilbow etc...

Its just unfair.

Blizzcon should reward the best players in the world. Not a bunch of people who gets free points because they are not koreans.

WCS should not allow points for blizzcon.


So, if you cant accept different opinion, ban me, if you disagree with me, feel free to tell me why lilbow deserve more than TY or soO, solar etc... to get to blizzcon
WCS is a shitty joke, with racist rules. Support players who deserves it instead of foreigner scrubs who dont work half as much as koreans. JUN TAEYANG IS THE BEST <3
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24209 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-15 00:28:11
September 15 2015 00:23 GMT
#52
it's not unfair, that's the system and how it works, TY/soO/Solar were aware of this. Blizzcon has never gathered the 16 best players in the world skill wise anyway, and it's not like Lilbow's skin color will keep him from playing great SC2, maybe not as great as the guys you mentioned, but definitely great enough to kick 99.99% people's ass and more importantly enough to generate more hype for the event than soO or TY could ever do.

What happened this week-end is absolutely amazing for SC2, and that's coming from someone who's far from being a fan of the way Lilbow approaches the game. If you can't deal with Lilbow being at Blizzcon and all the good things it does for the game entertainement and hype wise, you need to sort your priorities.

And man saying they didn't deliver a good show is ridiculous. The level is probably not as high as what you can get in Korean leagues, but every series was just awesome as far as suspense and entertainment goes... I really enjoyed the PvP, that's saying something...

Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17677 Posts
September 15 2015 01:13 GMT
#53
On September 15 2015 09:13 Ensiferum8 wrote:
If the mods want to ban me because they dont accept my opinion, its their choice, but honestly:

IMO

It was a really pathetic WCS

I hate the Blizzcon point system, its completly unfair.

First, the quality of the games were really bad (compared to GSL, SSL, or the insanely great PL final we saw just before).

I mean, common! Mana? Zanster??? In semi finals of what is supposed to be a really prestigious tournament?

If its a joke, its not funny.

But, what I hate the most, is that the system is completly unfair. It rewards players based on where they are born, instead of whos the best.

Look at blizzcon ranking: Lilbow? polt? maybe forGG?

With all due respect, these players all are in Blizzcon, or really close, while player like

soO, Dream, TY, stats etc... ARE OUT

Fun fact: TY would beat the wcs player in 90% of the game, just like soO etc....

But thanks to WCS, foreigners that have 0 chance, and IMO, clearly dont deserve to be there, gets free pass because they are born outside of Korea.

Imagine yourself in TY's shoes...

You play insanely well (all kill CJ, semi in SSL etc...), but because some random foreigner (lilbow) beats another even more random and no name foreigner (zanster!, mana!)

TY is out. Even if TY is WAY BETTER than lilbow etc...

Its just unfair.

Blizzcon should reward the best players in the world. Not a bunch of people who gets free points because they are not koreans.

WCS should not allow points for blizzcon.


So, if you cant accept different opinion, ban me, if you disagree with me, feel free to tell me why lilbow deserve more than TY or soO, solar etc... to get to blizzcon

Dream is in Blizzcon 100%, TY and Stats have a very small chance
http://sc2.4ever.tv/
"Expert" mods4ever.com
AxiomBlurr
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
786 Posts
September 15 2015 01:52 GMT
#54
If not for the TvT ForGG v Polt, Polt would have won this WCS...That said....massssssssive congrats to lilbow~~ he has been a super solid Protoss for a long time now...just ask Rotti, and Lilbow's pvp is world class...
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-15 03:17:50
September 15 2015 03:10 GMT
#55
Congrats Lilbow! A well-deserved win!

Was the quality of the tournament worse than Korean leagues? Yes, and maybe arguably worse than WCS Season 1 and 2. Some of the games this season were just sub-par, notably:

1. Hydra v Lilbow - Hydra was playing insanely good in G1 and G2, and then just collapsed in G3 (the photo above summed it all) and G5. Yes, it was bold decision-making by Lilbow, but Hydra was very much ahead and would've won if he had properly played safe and scouted.

2. Mana v ForGG - If you had hidden their names, I wouldn't be able to tell that the Terran was a Korean. Endless 2-base all-ins? Was ForGG over-confident or simply didn't have any other builds? Either way, super bad performance by him. Draw controversy or not, Mana was clearly the better player. I don't know what the hype was about in the series. ForGG was long dead in most games at 2/3 point (when he couldn't break through and Mana took a 3rd) - really good Koreans would've given up earlier and focused on the next game.

3. Lilbow v Mana - Admittedly, I only watched G1 and G2. And then I stopped watching. Sure, the games were exciting and PvP is by nature volatile. But 15-20 supply leads were swinging wildly back and forth in each other's favour - which shouldn't happen in a truly high-level game (look at Korean PvP especially Zest v Classic in the SPL Final - wrong build, bad start, 10-15 supply deficit, and there's no coming back - yes, the games are that punishing).

For some reason, players were finding it hard to close out games (yes, looking at you, Hydra). The games were thrilling, of course - but mostly because players in the lead were making blunders and letting their opponents back into the game, and also because of a few late Fantasy GG timings. I also wonder if Hydra and Polt were not as focused and committed this season because they've already made it to Blizzcon - much the same way Life and Dream have lost some steam back in Korea. Maybe Blizzcon can have a strange contrasting motivational effect on players in later seasons (positive for those struggling to make it, negative for those who already have)

That said, I was rather impressed by Petreaus and Zarnster. Good solid Zergs. They definitely deserved to be in the finals. Both could've beaten Mana and Lilbow, if not for some minor mistakes.

Not meaning to ridicule Lilbow's achievements here. Just wanting to put things into context. Yes, I'm happy that Lilbow - the best player of the tournament - won WCS. But I'm not happy that he's going to Blizzcon in this manner (winning a mid-tier tournament over a relatively weak field).
gg no re thx
TheDougler
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada8304 Posts
September 15 2015 05:18 GMT
#56
On September 15 2015 09:13 Ensiferum8 wrote:
If the mods want to ban me because they dont accept my opinion, its their choice, but honestly:

IMO

It was a really pathetic WCS

I hate the Blizzcon point system, its completly unfair.

First, the quality of the games were really bad (compared to GSL, SSL, or the insanely great PL final we saw just before).

I mean, common! Mana? Zanster??? In semi finals of what is supposed to be a really prestigious tournament?

If its a joke, its not funny.

But, what I hate the most, is that the system is completly unfair. It rewards players based on where they are born, instead of whos the best.

Look at blizzcon ranking: Lilbow? polt? maybe forGG?

With all due respect, these players all are in Blizzcon, or really close, while player like

soO, Dream, TY, stats etc... ARE OUT

Fun fact: TY would beat the wcs player in 90% of the game, just like soO etc....

But thanks to WCS, foreigners that have 0 chance, and IMO, clearly dont deserve to be there, gets free pass because they are born outside of Korea.

Imagine yourself in TY's shoes...

You play insanely well (all kill CJ, semi in SSL etc...), but because some random foreigner (lilbow) beats another even more random and no name foreigner (zanster!, mana!)

TY is out. Even if TY is WAY BETTER than lilbow etc...

Its just unfair.

Blizzcon should reward the best players in the world. Not a bunch of people who gets free points because they are not koreans.

WCS should not allow points for blizzcon.


So, if you cant accept different opinion, ban me, if you disagree with me, feel free to tell me why lilbow deserve more than TY or soO, solar etc... to get to blizzcon


The 16 best players in the world are typically found in the GSL RO16. For everyone else, there's Blizzcon. Similarly, the best hockey players are found in the NHL, for everyone else, there's the Olympics. There's nothing wrong with any of that. Different strokes for different folks. Personally, when I watch hockey I prefer the NHL, but for SC2 I usually prefer to root for the home team. (Er, well in the Olympics or NHL I'm rooting for the home team, but the home team isn't good enough for GSL haha). The idea that I wouldn't have the ability to watch international talent take eachother on in a prestigious tournament AT LEAST once a year is stupid, in my opinion. I really like the way region lock is turning out.
I root for Euro Zergs, NA Protoss* and Korean Terrans. (Any North American who has beat a Korean Pro as Protoss counts as NA Toss)
LV-Hellscream
Profile Joined November 2012
Great Britain154 Posts
September 15 2015 07:31 GMT
#57
Starcraft 2
damn it. Why writing starcraft in the topic? ;/ I was hoping to see something awesome about SC1..
stardog
Profile Joined August 2011
556 Posts
September 15 2015 08:57 GMT
#58
On September 15 2015 09:13 Ensiferum8 wrote:
Its just unfair.

It's completely normal, otherwise in, for example, most football world cups we would see ~10 South America teams and ~22 European teams. Pretty much every sport in the word has some kind of regional locks or eliminations.
digmouse
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
China6329 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-15 09:34:13
September 15 2015 09:33 GMT
#59
On September 15 2015 16:31 LV-Hellscream wrote:
Starcraft 2
damn it. Why writing starcraft in the topic? ;/ I was hoping to see something awesome about SC1..

This is Starcraft 2 General Forum. Did you bother looking at the title and forum before dropping this? Are you implying TL writers should not write about Starcraft 2 because it has a 2 in it?
TranslatorIf you want to ask anything about Chinese esports, send me a PM or follow me @nerddigmouse.
True_Spike
Profile Joined July 2004
Poland3424 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-15 09:44:44
September 15 2015 09:44 GMT
#60
Guys, do you want to see Mana on his (probably) first offline SC event?

[image loading]

Damn, I feel old.
D-light
Profile Joined April 2012
Finland7364 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-15 11:03:13
September 15 2015 11:02 GMT
#61
On September 15 2015 00:48 True_Spike wrote:
In case anyone is interested, one of the Netwars people posted some photos:

http://imgur.com/a/p0l0b
https://www.flickr.com/photos/132308195@N03/sets/72157658107909598

Some pretty cool pics.

I mean I dislike naniwa as much as the next guy, but I still don't get the bruno thing as a comeback to him for disliking poland.
On September 15 2015 09:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:
And man saying they didn't deliver a good show is ridiculous. The level is probably not as high as what you can get in Korean leagues, but every series was just awesome as far as suspense and entertainment goes... I really enjoyed the PvP, that's saying something...


"probably not as high" :D

Do tell how you enjoyed game 1, 3, 5 and 6 of the finals. Just because a foreigner won regardless even if the other one made a stupid mistake?
why even
VHbb
Profile Joined October 2014
689 Posts
September 15 2015 12:03 GMT
#62
This is pretty cool by the way:

http://www.millenium.org/starcraft-2/accueil/actualites/des-felicitations-officielles-pour-lilbow-le-gouvernement-francais-felicite-le-protoss-millenium-pour-sa-victoire-en-wcs-134170

Official congratulations for Lilbow ! :D
My life for Aiur !
Tobivankenobi-TV
Profile Joined May 2013
Albania2 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-15 12:07:04
September 15 2015 12:06 GMT
#63
its so nice to see a foreigne champion too see thats guyd like Mana can beat "koreans" and too see new european, amercian hopes ...... thats much better than the old

will grubby come back ?
stardog
Profile Joined August 2011
556 Posts
September 15 2015 12:06 GMT
#64
On September 15 2015 20:02 D-light wrote:
I mean I dislike naniwa as much as the next guy, but I still don't get the bruno thing as a comeback to him for disliking poland.

I think it was OK - nani's comment was plain rude, they replied with an unoffensive joke. Reminds me of mustache Nerchio's portrait in homesory cups.
FrostPilot
Profile Joined August 2015
31 Posts
September 15 2015 15:40 GMT
#65
On September 15 2015 18:44 True_Spike wrote:
Guys, do you want to see Mana on his (probably) first offline SC event?

Already practicing the stare
Thanks for sharing.
Redfish
Profile Joined April 2010
United States142 Posts
September 15 2015 16:28 GMT
#66
I am so, so, so sick of seeing all of the inane and worthless "THIS TOURNEY SUX BC NO GSL KOREANS" and "HERP DERP PROTOSS" posts that litter these threads.

It was a fantastic tournament that had a lot of drama, wonderful human and emotional moments, compelling storylines, comebacks, and brilliant strategic maneuvers, all in front of a rocking crowd that the SC2 scene needs more of. Enjoy it and take your biased and overtly misinformed balance whining and elitist snobbery elsewhere.
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
September 15 2015 18:27 GMT
#67
"(Jim’s entire style for instance was created with the expectation of always playing in 400 ping environments)"

I am super super interested by this. Can someone link me to some additional content?
grogburg
Profile Blog Joined December 2014
United States329 Posts
September 15 2015 20:52 GMT
#68
On September 16 2015 03:27 fezvez wrote:
"(Jim’s entire style for instance was created with the expectation of always playing in 400 ping environments)"

I am super super interested by this. Can someone link me to some additional content?


I don't have specific links for you but if you watch pretty much any WCS premier league game with Jim in it, Rotti will make a big deal about how Jim never builds high templar, since the ping essentially prevents the effective use of storms.
<3 BaseTradeTV <3
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24209 Posts
September 15 2015 22:19 GMT
#69
On September 15 2015 21:03 VHbb wrote:
This is pretty cool by the way:

http://www.millenium.org/starcraft-2/accueil/actualites/des-felicitations-officielles-pour-lilbow-le-gouvernement-francais-felicite-le-protoss-millenium-pour-sa-victoire-en-wcs-134170

Official congratulations for Lilbow ! :D

this is totally amazing, I wasn't aware it had gotten so much echo outside of the esports scene. Great !!!!
14CC
Profile Blog Joined May 2015
93 Posts
September 16 2015 00:47 GMT
#70
On September 16 2015 01:28 Redfish wrote:
I am so, so, so sick of seeing all of the inane and worthless "THIS TOURNEY SUX BC NO GSL KOREANS" and "HERP DERP PROTOSS" posts that litter these threads.

It was a fantastic tournament that had a lot of drama, wonderful human and emotional moments, compelling storylines, comebacks, and brilliant strategic maneuvers, all in front of a rocking crowd that the SC2 scene needs more of. Enjoy it and take your biased and overtly misinformed balance whining and elitist snobbery elsewhere.

A great tournament indeed. It had everything except high lvl starcraft.
digmouse
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
China6329 Posts
September 16 2015 00:54 GMT
#71
On September 16 2015 03:27 fezvez wrote:
"(Jim’s entire style for instance was created with the expectation of always playing in 400 ping environments)"

I am super super interested by this. Can someone link me to some additional content?

Back when WCS AM Ro32 was online, Jim had to play his games across the pacific ocean, think about that.
TranslatorIf you want to ask anything about Chinese esports, send me a PM or follow me @nerddigmouse.
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-16 01:14:16
September 16 2015 01:14 GMT
#72
On September 16 2015 03:27 fezvez wrote:
"(Jim’s entire style for instance was created with the expectation of always playing in 400 ping environments)"

I am super super interested by this. Can someone link me to some additional content?


Some interview somewhere he mentions it. Its why Phoenix Colossus was their main style.
Their being Jim and Macsed
True_Spike
Profile Joined July 2004
Poland3424 Posts
September 16 2015 06:46 GMT
#73
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9MpaL25JlnEZUc8BRZwCUw

Some clips from the viewer's standpoint.
DirtyNoodle
Profile Joined August 2015
2 Posts
September 16 2015 16:25 GMT
#74
On September 15 2015 09:13 Ensiferum8 wrote:
If the mods want to ban me because they dont accept my opinion, its their choice, but honestly:

IMO

It was a really pathetic WCS

I hate the Blizzcon point system, its completly unfair.

First, the quality of the games were really bad (compared to GSL, SSL, or the insanely great PL final we saw just before).

I mean, common! Mana? Zanster??? In semi finals of what is supposed to be a really prestigious tournament?

If its a joke, its not funny.

But, what I hate the most, is that the system is completly unfair. It rewards players based on where they are born, instead of whos the best.

Look at blizzcon ranking: Lilbow? polt? maybe forGG?

With all due respect, these players all are in Blizzcon, or really close, while player like

soO, Dream, TY, stats etc... ARE OUT

Fun fact: TY would beat the wcs player in 90% of the game, just like soO etc....

But thanks to WCS, foreigners that have 0 chance, and IMO, clearly dont deserve to be there, gets free pass because they are born outside of Korea.

Imagine yourself in TY's shoes...

You play insanely well (all kill CJ, semi in SSL etc...), but because some random foreigner (lilbow) beats another even more random and no name foreigner (zanster!, mana!)

TY is out. Even if TY is WAY BETTER than lilbow etc...

Its just unfair.

Blizzcon should reward the best players in the world. Not a bunch of people who gets free points because they are not koreans.

WCS should not allow points for blizzcon.


So, if you cant accept different opinion, ban me, if you disagree with me, feel free to tell me why lilbow deserve more than TY or soO, solar etc... to get to blizzcon


Agree or disagree, you put some effort in this post and just for that reason alone it deserves an honest answer.
First of all I think it's necessary to say that Lilbow didn't smash a bunch of nobodies in this tournament, that would be unfair, wrong and stupid.
Jaedong, ForGG and Hydra aren't noobs by any means and it would require a colossal amount of hate to refuse to acknowledge what kind of performance a player (foreigner or Korean) needs to beat those 3 guys in the same competition, your point of view suffered when you downplayed that performance, but I think your other point was better.

For your second point which is fair critique of the WCS system, I'll make a comparison with the soccer world cup, if you're American you're probably not familiar with that competition but bear with me, it's quite simple.
If only the best teams would participate in the world cup almost all of them would be European and South American.
But Asia, Africa and North America participate in that event, not because they can compete with Brazil, but because it's a world event that's supposed to gather the entire planet around it.
The "W" in WCS has the same purpose, the world gather around an event and almost all nations can bring their best hopes.
Is it fair? Not for the Koreans.
Is it best for the sport? Without a doubt, more eyes, more growth, more money, more popularity, that's not open for debate.

Blizzcon is your elite competition, that one you should watch, I'm sure Lilbow won't ruin it for you, and who knows, no matter how hard it is to admit it, he can win a few games.
But more importantly, maybe sometimes you could indulge yourself with a fun and thrilling event and just have a good time watching players do their absolute best to win even if you seem to dislike them to a point where you lose some rationality about their skills.
Maybe you could consider being able to admire the very best without the hate for those very close to that level, there is no causality between the two and that too, isn't open for debate.


Larkin
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United Kingdom7161 Posts
September 17 2015 15:26 GMT
#75
Good shit. WCS was awesome. Fuck the haters.
https://www.twitch.tv/ttalarkin - streams random stuff, high level teamleague, maybe even heroleague
VHbb
Profile Joined October 2014
689 Posts
September 17 2015 21:23 GMT
#76
This is how people celebrated Lilbow's win

http://9gag.com/gag/aDm1AbZ

Baguette Protoss !
My life for Aiur !
StatixEx
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United Kingdom779 Posts
September 19 2015 14:46 GMT
#77
wcs wasnt good, been watching for years. was the only one i wasnt looking forward to watching and while watching i was doing other things. GJ to lilbow however, im not taking anything away from the finalists but for me it was utterly boring to watch
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