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.Srsly x_x
qxc's thoughts: The Removal of Macro Mechanics - Page 2
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
.Srsly x_x | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
Some balance will have to revisited on this subject, but I'm sure it will even out towards the end of the LOTV beta. | ||
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ohmylanta1003
United States128 Posts
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coldturkey49
United States11 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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qxc
United States550 Posts
On August 25 2015 00:10 Charoisaur wrote: There is already a game where you don't have to focus on macro and can put all your attention on unit movement and strategy. It's called LoL. Why do so many people want to turn sc2 into LoL instead of playing the original? Removing macro mechanics does not make Starcraft into LoL. It's also not about putting all your attention away from macro. Macro is still non-trivial with these changes and a huge part of the game. On August 25 2015 00:19 LoneYoShi wrote: Another point that Qxc kinda eluded is the question of the skill floor. Yes, Life will still be able to shine by doing things high masters zergs can only dream of doing. Nonetheless, "easier" macro still means there is one less differentiating factor between players. In a game that is already quite volatile at the highest level, with only a few repeat champions, is this really a good thing ? And ok for the difference between Life and low GM players, but what about the difference between soO and Hyun for example ? soO's strength lies in his pristine injects, so this patch will hit him hard. I think we can all agree that right now, soO is the better player when compared to Hyun. Will this still be the case in LotV ? Volatility of the skill of players has nothing to do with skill ceilings/floors and much more to do with the difficulty in being a consistent performer as well as the volatility of the game balance itself. Every time there is a patch the relative skill of players will shake up a bit. | ||
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Penev
28524 Posts
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fluidrone
France1478 Posts
If the community wants competition, said competition should be more about "how well one reads the game while playing it""how deadly or inventive are we when using the given tools". When you say The most interesting parts of Starcraft have to do with unit design, map control and micro. I think I get a lil hard on  | ||
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WickedBit
United States343 Posts
They can go about it two ways: 1. Remove auto inject and increase larva spawn rate. Here a Zerg will have to be on top of their macro to not waste larva. 2. Keep auto inject but cap max larva in a single base to maybe 4/5. This will be slightly more powerful that above but might still work. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10700 Posts
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Yora
United States35 Posts
On August 25 2015 00:19 LoneYoShi wrote: I usually side with Qxc on a lot of stuff, but not here. Macro is interesting. I still remember how impressed I was back when Bomber was tearing up Code A with pure macro alone, producing 15 marines at once, absolutely overwhelming everyone. I still remember Parting's "1-gate into 3 Nexus into 8 gate zealot archon" build from WoL, where he just ran everyone over. Producing stuff is cool, and interesting to me. Another point that Qxc kinda eluded is the question of the skill floor. Yes, Life will still be able to shine by doing things high masters zergs can only dream of doing. Nonetheless, "easier" macro still means there is one less differentiating factor between players. In a game that is already quite volatile at the highest level, with only a few repeat champions, is this really a good thing ? And ok for the difference between Life and low GM players, but what about the difference between soO and Hyun for example ? soO's strength lies in his pristine injects, so this patch will hit him hard. I think we can all agree that right now, soO is the better player when compared to Hyun. Will this still be the case in LotV ? Yes, playing sc2 is hard. Yes, it is true that macro actually prevents a lot of people to see the beauty and subtle intricacies of starcraft, because producing more stuff is enough. However, that is the game I love, and I wouldn't want it any different. Last point: even if I'm globally against this change, there is one upside to it. The reduced pace. This is definitely a good thing IMHO, and if macro mechanics were re-instated, I'd like Blizz to try and keep this slowed pace somehow. I believe if a talented and dedicated player like soO focuses his effort on whatever aspect of play has the most impact on victory it will show. On the first day of competitive LoTV, it could very well be soO will have a hard time shining over other high end micro oriented zergs, but given the time and practice he should be able to stand out again. Core changes to the game tends to weed out players who could only excel in a specific way, but the real talent adjusts as needed even if that adjustment is counter to their natural strengths. It's all speculation at this point anyway, too much is going to be different to really know how these players will adapt. It could very well be LoTV will be more mechanically difficult than HoTS to an extent where the fastest and best multitaskers will really shine even though there's a higher skill floor, because the skill ceiling actually reaches higher than ever allowing a greater distinction between players than ever before in SC2. This is the direction they're going in with so many active units and the importance of expanding. Top level players will be ruthless in their harassment in a way they currently can't be. In my opinion the potential of a theoretical 'perfect' player in late game LoTV is far greater than a 'perfect' player in HoTS. | ||
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DeepBurrow
49 Posts
On August 25 2015 00:56 WickedBit wrote: I agree with qxc on this. However I think zerg still needs a bit more change. The issue is that Zerg can bank lots of larva on one hatchery. I think this should be capped. Similar to protoss/terran if Zerg want to produce more units at once they must build additional hatches. They can go about it two ways: 1. Remove auto inject and increase larva spawn rate. Here a Zerg will have to be on top of their macro to not waste larva. 2. Keep auto inject but cap max larva in a single base to maybe 4/5. This will be slightly more powerful that above but might still work. The first version is perfect  You need to spend larva and make macro hatches. Also they need to give 5 larvas to hatch if this happen cuz if they keep 3 it kills the early and mid game. | ||
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Headnoob
Australia2108 Posts
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Liquid`Zephyr
United States996 Posts
On August 25 2015 00:33 NonY wrote: Since HotS is already the kind of StarCraft game you want, isn't your argument more appropriately used against a change that would make macro in LotV more important, not in defense of a change that makes macro in LotV less important? In other words, HotS macro already doesn't cross the threshold that you deem dangerous. LotV is not getting closer to the threshold with these changes but rather farther away from it. So why bring up the danger of crossing the threshold at all? agreed. read the whole op feeling like i was in the twilight zone | ||
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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
The reason qxc like these changes is because it helps bring down players in areas he’s deficient I don’t use hotkeys.. so I say blizzard removes them so everyone comes down to my level… | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
Personally I'd like to see them tweak the game going forward with the idea of macro mechanics removed. LotV is not even close to perfect with the removal of the mechanics. But I *like* the direction. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On August 25 2015 01:08 Ignorant prodigy wrote: A micro orientated player wants more focus on micro.. is anyone surprised? The reason qxc like these changes is because it helps bring down players in areas he’s deficient I don’t use hotkeys.. so I say blizzard removes them so everyone comes down to my level… I'd argue that a vast majority of people want more focus on micro. The reason I don't watch or play SC2 anymore is that macro is boring as all fuck. And when I was high masters back in the days before HOTS, my macro was the only good thing. My micro was shit, and I still found micro heavy games more entertaining. And I hardly think qxc takes this so seriously that he'd just "lobby" for things that are advantageous to him, let's be serious x_x | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On August 25 2015 01:08 Ignorant prodigy wrote: A micro orientated player wants more focus on micro.. is anyone surprised? The reason qxc like these changes is because it helps bring down players in areas he’s deficient I don’t use hotkeys.. so I say blizzard removes them so everyone comes down to my level… That is a silly way of looking at it. The fact of the matter is SC2 lacks a ton of "big play" moments even at the highest level. It is a game more of subtleties. Which if you've played the game for years you can appreciate but if you haven't it is almost impossible to ever figure out why someone won a game. I've watched with people who don't play SC2 and to them it just looks like two armies meet in the middle of the map and someone won for whatever reason and won the game. But if you watch DOTA2 even casually you can recognize big plays. Last TI was defined by the Echo Slam play. Previously it was Dendi's Dream Coil. I have watched SC2 since very early WoL beta and I can't even think of a defining "big play" moment. The only moments in SC2 are storylines. Because no one goes "Holy shit look at this guy's queen energy it is at 5 energy 20 minutes into the game! This is so fucking exciting!" | ||
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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
On August 25 2015 01:10 Djzapz wrote: I'd argue that a vast majority of people want more focus on micro. The reason I don't watch or play SC2 anymore is that macro is boring as all fuck. And when I was high masters back in the days before HOTS, my macro was the only good thing. My micro was shit, and I still found micro heavy games more entertaining. And I hardly think qxc takes this so seriously that he'd just "lobby" for things that are advantageous to him, let's be serious x_x the argument isn't who likes maru vs innovation it's the fact you want to see maru vs maru and eliminating innovation entirely. that's fine.. you hate macro.. but you don't speak for everyone (thankfully) | ||
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