EPTqxc's thoughts: The Removal of Macro Mechanics - Page 10
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Wintex
Norway16849 Posts
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Khalimaroth
France71 Posts
This "new macro" make 1 little step behind to let all thoose things more important, more accessible. If today we thought macro have to make a step behind, it's surely because it took soooo much place in this game for soooo long time. I think it could be the root of all the abuse we saw in the meta (ZvP BL/Infest age, full air Protoss, Half-Map Meca TvT, ex-Swarmhost abuse etc...) Now, pros and all of us have to make the difference between a good player and a bad one with the whole Starcraft2, and not only the poor macro counter. I dont know if this patch is balance or not, i dont know wich meta will reach the ladder and the competitions, but i really enjoy the pace of the game right now. Regards, glhf♪ excuse my spelling mistakes :s | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
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crazyweasel
607 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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IceBerrY
Germany220 Posts
On August 27 2015 06:22 crazyweasel wrote: i thought this guy retired after WoL Beta No reason to be mean. | ||
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Plecto
Norway30 Posts
If you want a game that's less mechanically challenging, you can allways wait for Warcraft 4. LotV isn't out of beta, and i'm more excited about warcraft 4 in the future, a game we don't even know for sure is even a project Blizzard is working on. Says a lot about how lotv beta turned out for me (and the majority of other dedicated players). I am shocked at how QXC defends this major destruction of a patch Blizzard released. I hope to god they change their mind, for the sake of the future of SC2, if you want it last many many years to come. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
It looks like blizzard is taking this approach again. Sc2 is the hearthstone to starcraft 1. Why even mine resources? Why not just be given 1000 minerals and 300 gas per minute per macro building? Then you can *really* focus on just strategy. btw, side note: I've played games that work like what I just suggested. That mechanic was always terrible. | ||
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nTzzzz
France30 Posts
Reading the comments, I'm glad to see some people are changing their minds about this. Like many others, I had 10+ friends who were passionate about SC2 but all quit playing because they got increasingly frustrated with the mechanical requirements. At this point, the TL community is mostly hardcore competitive gamers (who are somewhat ok with the state of the game) so the fact that even here opinions are now quite balanced makes it a no brainer for Blizzard to get rid of macro boosters. I'm very excited for the future of SC2!  I do feel bad for the people here who only care about the mechanical skill ceiling being totally out of reach, however Blizzard can't please everyone and I really believe this change is a big step in the right direction for 95% of the original (post WoL / HotS release) player pool. | ||
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Gruntt
United States175 Posts
Knowing that the top 1000 players all play at the same speed cap makes this game seem soooooo boring to me. It makes the game so utterly predictable when you know everyone around you is operating at the same cap of speed. I want to see people think someone has a mineral hack when they see that insane army. I want to see people make this massive force and just totally overwhelm someone. Brute force is entertaining, that's why we remember the times when it happened. We remember when NaDa would just amass this insane quantity of units like.. omg WTF! We noticed when flash, even as late in the game as we saw, would macro at this new found insane level. Making macro even HARDER would present new levels of the game. A higher tier for example, that only the true greats could achieve. Sure, it was cool to see someone do a cool micro trick...... but it was WAY more amazing when I first saw the fastest koreans play. Cheater Terran anyone? I want to see some 450 APM korean completely dominate some 200 apm foreigner contender. I picture some giant basketball player yelling "GET THAT SHIT OUTTA HERE!" <-- THIS is entertainment. We can all sit here and awe at the great micro someone does, but the greatest we have witnessed came from those who could do it WHILE pulling off insane macro. I'm sorry, but I refuse to watch a game where I know exactly what someone can have at a particular time, and all the top 1000 operate at the same speed..... Basically we're just going to make WC3 with no heroes and no items. Just because we're old and tired doesn't mean we should take that opportunity away from the younger generation growing up with this game. This is just my opinion as well. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On August 27 2015 06:22 crazyweasel wrote: i thought this guy retired after WoL Beta User was warned for this post http://i.imgur.com/5bk5M.gif Personally I always felt like Zerg Macro was the easiest, now it's going to be even easier :-/ oh well. edit: Removing MULE and Chronoboost and reducing the effectiveness of Inject are all steps in the right direction though. Now we just need to increase the build time of all units / buildings / research to further slow the macro of the game down. | ||
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Gruntt
United States175 Posts
On August 28 2015 17:43 Pursuit_ wrote: http://i.imgur.com/5bk5M.gif Personally I always felt like Zerg Macro was the easiest, now it's going to be even easier :-/ oh well. edit: Removing MULE and Chronoboost and reducing the effectiveness of Inject are all steps in the right direction though. Now we just need to increase the build time of all units / buildings / research to further slow the macro of the game down. We could just force the game to be played on Slowest too. Then the real fun would start! | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On August 28 2015 18:02 Gruntt wrote: We could just force the game to be played on Slowest too. Then the real fun would start! There's a huge difference between slowing down the build / research time and slowing down the units. Basically, if units / tech build more slowly then you can do more things with the units you have before the next stage of the game begins (i.e. if reaper is only viable until speed is out, then slowing down the build / research time of all things means the reaper has more time to move and attack before speed comes out). Right now timing windows are really small and the game progresses through the stages very quickly and usually with little action. There isn't enough time to harass, unless you have uber units like the oracle or widow mine drops that can wipe mineral lines in seconds (and even then it's because of how quickly they harass, not because you have time to do it). This is why we often see games have very little aggression and instead go straight to a specific game deciding timing or 200/200. But this has all been said before by people who've done more research into it than I, so I digress. | ||
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nTzzzz
France30 Posts
On August 28 2015 17:23 Gruntt wrote: I disagree completely. I feel it's important as the player pool and talent increases, so should the skill cap of the game. Being able to play perfectly at 500 apm should STILL not be enough. The idea is that someone has the ability to "reach higher." There should always be a higher point. This is why I think SCBW was so successful. There was this insanely high cap that so few could reach, that it was AMAZING to watch them do it. You watched them because they completely blew you away with their ridiculous speed. THEN, WHILE having that speed, they could do cool shit too! Knowing that the top 1000 players all play at the same speed cap makes this game seem soooooo boring to me. It makes the game so utterly predictable when you know everyone around you is operating at the same cap of speed. I want to see people think someone has a mineral hack when they see that insane army. I want to see people make this massive force and just totally overwhelm someone. Brute force is entertaining, that's why we remember the times when it happened. We remember when NaDa would just amass this insane quantity of units like.. omg WTF! We noticed when flash, even as late in the game as we saw, would macro at this new found insane level. Making macro even HARDER would present new levels of the game. A higher tier for example, that only the true greats could achieve. Sure, it was cool to see someone do a cool micro trick...... but it was WAY more amazing when I first saw the fastest koreans play. Cheater Terran anyone? I want to see some 450 APM korean completely dominate some 200 apm foreigner contender. I picture some giant basketball player yelling "GET THAT SHIT OUTTA HERE!" <-- THIS is entertainment. We can all sit here and awe at the great micro someone does, but the greatest we have witnessed came from those who could do it WHILE pulling off insane macro. I'm sorry, but I refuse to watch a game where I know exactly what someone can have at a particular time, and all the top 1000 operate at the same speed..... Basically we're just going to make WC3 with no heroes and no items. Just because we're old and tired doesn't mean we should take that opportunity away from the younger generation growing up with this game. This is just my opinion as well. Everytime you say "we", you're making assumptions about what other people find enjoyable in the game. As it turns out, the APM competition you seem to enjoy is literally of zero interest to me (and I do mean none whatsoever). Some other people find it somewhat interesting but most value the strategic aspects of SC2 more and that's where your logic doesn't work for most of us: the bigger the advantage you get from a higher APM, the less important strategy is. If you needed 500 apm to play the game, it would just be dominated by 12 year olds who don't really know what they are doing strategy wise but still win because they have the speed to manage everything. It really does not sound interesting to me. | ||
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Gruntt
United States175 Posts
On August 28 2015 22:31 nTzzzz wrote: Everytime you say "we", you're making assumptions about what other people find enjoyable in the game. As it turns out, the APM competition you seem to enjoy is literally of zero interest to me (and I do mean none whatsoever). Some other people find it somewhat interesting but most value the strategic aspects of SC2 more and that's where your logic doesn't work for most of us: the bigger the advantage you get from a higher APM, the less important strategy is. If you needed 500 apm to play the game, it would just be dominated by 12 year olds who don't really know what they are doing strategy wise but still win because they have the speed to manage everything. It really does not sound interesting to me. Then why even have economy in the game? If you just want to watch micro then why even have macro in the game? Starcraft was built on who could make shit fast and micro simultaneously. Managing multiple things at once is like the entire concept of the game. 12 year olds with no direction? The planning involved and memory skills that needed to be refined for impressive macro is VERY difficult to achieve. Then to combine that with impressive micro? This is greatness. I think you're probably right, because I care about the entire game. I love seeing someone multitask like a god and do shit that seems inhuman while also coming up with awesome ideas in the moment. If you only enjoy 1/2 of the game and like to ignore the other half, then you're absolutely right, we enjoy different things. | ||
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ebTriN
1 Post
On August 29 2015 05:40 Gruntt wrote: Then why even have economy in the game? If you just want to watch micro then why even have macro in the game? Starcraft was built on who could make shit fast and micro simultaneously. Managing multiple things at once is like the entire concept of the game. 12 year olds with no direction? The planning involved and memory skills that needed to be refined for impressive macro is VERY difficult to achieve. Then to combine that with impressive micro? This is greatness. I think you're probably right, because I care about the entire game. I love seeing someone multitask like a god and do shit that seems inhuman while also coming up with awesome ideas in the moment. If you only enjoy 1/2 of the game and like to ignore the other half, then you're absolutely right, we enjoy different things. Gruntt no one says they want macro gone completely you seem to jump to extremes when replying to someone. Also IMO your points on macro are off, alot of macro becomes mechanical repetition with minimal thinking outside of your opening build and reacting to scouting info. This is an extreme example but did any General in the world have to be personally responsible to escort there supply lines to the front? Think of the macro changes as delegating, since i don't have to babysit my supply line as much I can focus on winning the war. In the end opinions vary, but you will still see good macro from good players, but now your macro heroes will have more options to position and make interesting plays with there army. | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
On August 28 2015 17:43 Pursuit_ wrote: Personally I always felt like Zerg Macro was the easiest, now it's going to be even easier :-/ oh well. edit: Removing MULE and Chronoboost and reducing the effectiveness of Inject are all steps in the right direction though. Now we just need to increase the build time of all units / buildings / research to further slow the macro of the game down. As a random I have to agree on this. Learning to inject was hard but once you had it down I found zerg macro much easier than terran and fairly similar to protoss, primarily as overloards are easier to handle than supply deplons and the unit building all happens off one hothey. The macro booster mechanics are a fairly small part of the process. While missing injects is more serious than missing mules or chrono, the rhythm of it and it being the main thing going definitely makes them easier to hit. If anything creep spread is what makes zerg mechanically demanding. In WoL/HotS this works out because the micro is usually super basic compared to the other races, but that looks set to change in LotV. I'm personally in favour of a faster start, slower acceleration and more micro. I do feel the harassment units might need toning back a bit though, its too easy to devastate a mineral line when it takes longer to restock. | ||
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ImYourHuckleberry
11 Posts
After playing 30 games, and being gm several times, I would say playing TvZ is absurd at this point. After games in which I've killed 50+ drones, the Zerg is still on equal footing. The great David Kim, who marginalizes everything, said "Terran mid/early game took a big hit [b/c of no mule]". Why doesn't QXC amend his post even when David Kim nullifies the changes a week into this new patch and reversing the mule change? Guys...it is one thing to be "open minded" but it is another for us to sit here and analyze an over-the-top broken change all day long. I'm watching streamers who will just not play LOTV b/c it is all Zergs. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On August 29 2015 17:54 cheekymonkey wrote: People do realize that Terran and Protoss macro won't become any easier, right? The reason for that you must believe it is balance whining when people complain about the game getting too easy. And in alot of cases it probably is. Actually terran is getting a little easier and less punishing with the OC changes in different situations: - forgot depots, lost depots? No matter you wont be supply blocked. - Couldn't scout or didn't do it in time? Scanning wont be at the cost of a mule anymore and 2-3 scans in a row will give you a pretty instant and complete picture about your opponent in midgame where others have to spend apm and mins/gas on suiciding scouting units. In early game zerg could probably have some more tasks in LOTV. But for lategame on 5+ hatches the changes are absolutely good. Asking a zerg to do 5+ hatch injects and doing the creep spread around the clock is a little bit much when at the same time Terran and Protoss have pretty much nothing else to do than queuing and warping in units. | ||
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thezanursic
5500 Posts
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