|
On August 29 2015 19:26 thezanursic wrote:
Remember when good macro was impressive?
(removed BW terran vod)
Where does terran have this impressive macro now and when does it get lost?
You think spamming 4/5/6 + q/w/e/r in order to queue bio in barracks is the impressive endgame macro in SC2 that might now get lost!?
I don't get the whole point of impressive macro in SC2 anymore. In early/midgame with fewer production macro isn't at all that hard to deal with for any race and in lategame SC2 terran macro is nothing about being impressive but just the easiest of them 3 races. And this got multiplied by mules even so that Terran didn't even have to care that much on SCV counts while the other races had to. Macro in BW used to become the more impressive the more production you had to work with. Is this at all the case e.g. for Terran in SC2 with multi building selection and the supply thing being done after reaching 200/200?
Is the argument that zerg will get an easy life while terran has to macro the shit out of their brains true or false?
Is all this impressive macro "whining" actually something that should have/has taken place at the release of WOL and is now just being mindlessly repeated and wrongly mixed into the macro changes from HOTS to LOTV?
...
SC2 can't lose what it never had the same way as you cannot come back from positions where you are not behind in!
|
On August 28 2015 00:34 travis wrote:
This reminds me of the difference between, say, mtg and hearthstone.
It looks like blizzard is taking this approach again.
Sc2 is the hearthstone to starcraft 1.
Why even mine resources? Why not just be given 1000 minerals and 300 gas per minute per macro building? Then you can *really* focus on just strategy.
btw, side note: I've played games that work like what I just suggested. That mechanic was always terrible.
Oh what a good post I found there man., I will steal it for a moment =P
|
The problem is that macro is the gateway to the rest of the game. Without good macro, you can’t experience a substantial part of what Starcraft offers. Micro, strategic decisions, tech switches and mind games all take a back seat to just ‘produce as much stuff as possible’ until you get close to optimal macro.
This. You can try to argue against removing macro mechanics but you should carry a big, wet, heavy bag of sand with you while doing it.
|
Very interesting post from qxc that changed my mind.
|
On August 29 2015 19:09 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 17:54 cheekymonkey wrote:
People do realize that Terran and Protoss macro won't become any easier, right? The reason for that you must believe it is balance whining when people complain about the game getting too easy. And in alot of cases it probably is. Actually terran is getting a little easier and less punishing with the OC changes in different situations: - forgot depots, lost depots? No matter you wont be supply blocked. - Couldn't scout or didn't do it in time? Scanning wont be at the cost of a mule anymore and 2-3 scans in a row will give you a pretty instant and complete picture about your opponent in midgame where others have to spend apm and mins/gas on suiciding scouting units. In early game zerg could probably have some more tasks in LOTV. But for lategame on 5+ hatches the changes are absolutely good. Asking a zerg to do 5+ hatch injects and doing the creep spread around the clock is a little bit much when at the same time Terran and Protoss have pretty much nothing else to do than queuing and warping in units.
You don't have to worry about Terran "queuing" anything when Zerg is on 5 hatches...they don't have any minerals left after the mule change. For David Kim to say yesterday that "Terran's economy took a big hit mid/early game" is an understatement. This patch, although conceptually in the right direction, killed Terran. There is nothing but ZvZ on LOTV ladder right now. I could do screenshots with the early game mineral deficiency TvZ but it has already been done...
|
Conspiracy theory 1: Blizzard removed the mule to have more data on Terran mech vs Protoss.
|
On August 29 2015 23:56 ImYourHuckleberry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 19:09 LSN wrote:On August 29 2015 17:54 cheekymonkey wrote:
People do realize that Terran and Protoss macro won't become any easier, right? The reason for that you must believe it is balance whining when people complain about the game getting too easy. And in alot of cases it probably is. Actually terran is getting a little easier and less punishing with the OC changes in different situations: - forgot depots, lost depots? No matter you wont be supply blocked. - Couldn't scout or didn't do it in time? Scanning wont be at the cost of a mule anymore and 2-3 scans in a row will give you a pretty instant and complete picture about your opponent in midgame where others have to spend apm and mins/gas on suiciding scouting units. In early game zerg could probably have some more tasks in LOTV. But for lategame on 5+ hatches the changes are absolutely good. Asking a zerg to do 5+ hatch injects and doing the creep spread around the clock is a little bit much when at the same time Terran and Protoss have pretty much nothing else to do than queuing and warping in units. You don't have to worry about Terran "queuing" anything when Zerg is on 5 hatches...they don't have any minerals left after the mule change. For David Kim to say yesterday that "Terran's economy took a big hit mid/early game" is an understatement. This patch, although conceptually in the right direction, killed Terran. There is nothing but ZvZ on LOTV ladder right now. I could do screenshots with the early game mineral deficiency TvZ but it has already been done...
I very much agree to this. Terran need to be improved in almost everything now. The only goal should be that we do not end up with bio only play in all matchups as it was not long time ago when doing this.
|
Sorry for the bump, I never knew Blizzard tried removing the macro mechanics entirely. Why were they reintroduced?
|
On December 31 2015 22:02 heishe wrote:
Sorry for the bump, I never knew Blizzard tried removing the macro mechanics entirely. Why were they reintroduced?
No time to rebalance the whole game again after 5 years of MM
|
On December 31 2015 22:02 heishe wrote:
Sorry for the bump, I never knew Blizzard tried removing the macro mechanics entirely. Why were they reintroduced?
It was easier for them to balance the game around weaker versions of the existing macro mechanics than to balance it around no macro mechanics. Since chrono and MULEs were gone but inject was still in the game (just automated), Zerg got very strong at all levels. Creep spreading became really easy since the APM that went into larva inject was freed up. Especially against Terran since they had scans cost 100 energy around that time. A giant mess they didn't really have time to fix.
|
Here is a link to one of the community feedbacks that includes the topic of macro mechanics:
Community Feedback - September 10
If u want to know more, just look for the community feedback threads around this date, e.g. September 6, September 18, etc.
These are official statements.
But I have to agree with WrathSCII here. They were forced to reintroduce MM, cuz release date was close and they were under pressure. But they are not admitting that, of course.
|
Without MM best sc2 ever I played. Incedribly fun to play if you are more busy with your army than with your economy. Economy is and was always the most boring part in any RTS game, even worse if economy is your most busy task.
|
It is rather annoying that a large majority of the beta was used for experimenting with macro mechanics, only for them to bring them back and make all that used up beta time essentially worthless.
|
I still feel pretty bad for Qxc. He was so damn prepared to play at the Redbull tournament, then Terran got dumpstered because of the Macro Mechanic removal (and the broken Zealot Charge) hitting right before it happened. But regardless of the balance/brokenness of that set of beta patches, the games at that Redbull were so amazing.
Shifting significant APM away from Macro Mechanics into Army Control just opens up the map so much at the top end. It was really fun to watch.
At the same time, Terran had to be completely & utterly rebalanced if they left it in. With no MULE for Terran, it highlighted how badly designed the MULE always had been in the game. So the problem wasn't having to redo all of the Unit Costs, it was that Terran was so completely balanced around its existence that everything had to be rescaled. And they didn't want to devote the time. (Frankly, it wouldn't have taken as long to do as they thought it would, but it would have been a radical change to the game.) So we get a somewhat nerfed version of Macro Mechanics and the launch of LOTV.
|
That's actually quite sad to hear. There's pretty much zero chance of them revisiting this now that all expansions are out right? I know they would consider stuff like adding new units to keep the game fresh, but I doubt they're going to do major redesigns like this anymore. Weird to abandon it just because they "didn't have enough time to rebalance everything", the beta seems like the last real chance they had.
|
Imagine how much of a skill game SC2 could have become without macro mechanics.
Terran had to actually care on not to lose every single SCV. Z had to decide wisely on every single larva. And all the op aoe damage that the game automatically evolves around now, especially that of toss and zerg, would not be needed to that extend. Variety would be increased by default. Strategical/tactical skill cap would have been increased by default.
Now Terran can at times waste scv, zerg can hoard larva and spam units and protoss got new op aoe. But hey the game is alot better than hots/wol ever was. So that will do the job for some time I guess.
|
Come on, it is not a MOBA :p
Chosing where to pay attention is totally part of a RTS. Attention is a ressource in a RTS, and where you choose to dedicate it is a choice. Just managing your army is so... arcade !
Plus zerg was OP as fuck with auto inject as they had near 0 macro to do. I mean pressing a button to build a building then paying attention to your army and engagements 99,5% of the time was dumb. When terran and protoss lose macro effiency once they decide to move across the map, zerg was like "oops let me make mutas -> press one button, select a drone, make a building -> double press 1 and come back to your army management".
:D
|
On December 31 2015 23:51 heishe wrote:
That's actually quite sad to hear. There's pretty much zero chance of them revisiting this now that all expansions are out right? I know they would consider stuff like adding new units to keep the game fresh, but I doubt they're going to do major redesigns like this anymore. Weird to abandon it just because they "didn't have enough time to rebalance everything", the beta seems like the last real chance they had.
The official reasoning wasnt "not enough time". Blizzard literally said that they were fearing a negative circlejerk around "zerg too easy without injects" and didnt want to take the risk, even though they saw the positive feedback provided by some polls. It's in one of the community updates after removal.
|
On January 01 2016 00:27 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2015 23:51 heishe wrote:
That's actually quite sad to hear. There's pretty much zero chance of them revisiting this now that all expansions are out right? I know they would consider stuff like adding new units to keep the game fresh, but I doubt they're going to do major redesigns like this anymore. Weird to abandon it just because they "didn't have enough time to rebalance everything", the beta seems like the last real chance they had. The official reasoning wasnt "not enough time". Blizzard literally said that they were fearing a negative circlejerk around "zerg too easy without injects" and didnt want to take the risk, even though they saw the positive feedback provided by some polls. It's in one of the community updates after removal.
It is not entierely true.
They explicitely said they were 50/50 inside their own staff concerning injects. Regarding the mule and chrono they liked the strategic choice of using a scan/mule/supply or fastening a tech path with chrono.
Btw, zerg was just so dumb to play at the time that even the lost vikings in Heroes where harder.  )))
|
On January 01 2016 00:31 Ppjack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2016 00:27 Big J wrote:On December 31 2015 23:51 heishe wrote:
That's actually quite sad to hear. There's pretty much zero chance of them revisiting this now that all expansions are out right? I know they would consider stuff like adding new units to keep the game fresh, but I doubt they're going to do major redesigns like this anymore. Weird to abandon it just because they "didn't have enough time to rebalance everything", the beta seems like the last real chance they had. The official reasoning wasnt "not enough time". Blizzard literally said that they were fearing a negative circlejerk around "zerg too easy without injects" and didnt want to take the risk, even though they saw the positive feedback provided by some polls. It's in one of the community updates after removal. It is not entierely true. They explicitely said they were 50/50 inside their own staff concerning injects. Regarding the mule and chrono they liked the strategic choice of using a scan/mule/supply or fastening a tech path with chrono. Btw, zerg was just so dumb to play at the time that even the lost vikings in Heroes where harder. )))
Protoss is and has always been dumb to play. perception, perception...
Anyways, read the zerg section in CU Sep 18th, their "primary reason" was what i wrote
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
