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From the Shadows - a Look at PvP

Forum Index > SC2 General
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From the Shadows - a Look at PvP

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
Graphics byv1
June 14th, 2015 08:30 GMT


Intro




by DarkLordOlli

Whenever one race enjoys a period of dominance, we're naturally forced to watch the best players of that race clash a lot in tournaments. That means one thing first and foremost: mirror matches. Lots of them. During the days of GomTvT that didn't seem to be a big deal. A lot of people seemed to enjoy TvT quite a lot. Its fights for positioning, flashy moves, as well as the rare opportunity to see people actually produce Battlecruisers (successfully even!) were appreciated by many.

When the Zergs' time to shine came, spectators were first confronted with the idea of free units vs free units. While lategame ZvZ quickly became everyone's least favorite thing in the world (perhaps due to the general public's inability to tell which infested terrans belonged to each player; same applies to broodlings), some people did find enjoyment in the buildup to it. Ling/baneling knife-fights, mutalisk and roach builds, as well as eventual transitions to infestors, hydralisks or even mass banelings were oftentimes interesting to watch.

Throughout all that, the Protoss mirror had always been the odd one out. The black sheep of the family, the coinflip matchup. Cannon rushes, proxy gates, the 4gate. Everything other races hated about Protoss was multiple times as common in PvP. No wonder people hated it.

But then, when Protoss' turn came to show off their mirror matchup... it turned out that it wasn't all that bad. During 2014's blink era, PvP may have been the most played matchup in tournaments. I don't have any stats for you but it sure felt like that. And while you may have hated the state of PvT and PvZ, there were a ton of amazing PvPs played during that time. So what exactly happened? Since when is PvP not mindless 4-gating anymore?




Yes, I get it. This used to be common.


How did PvP pick up its bad reputation?



No other matchup divides opinions as much as the Protoss mirror. Some people would rather not watch anything at all than having to endure PvP. Others (such as myself) love watching it. PvP itself reflects that phenomenon - it can produce the most awful games through luck of the coin, and it can produce incredible, highly intelligent masterpieces. The spectrum is immense. It's like a magic hat. Sometimes you reach in and pull out a beautiful flower, another time there'll be an angry rat in there that bites off a finger or two. It's all due to the cutthroat nature of PvP.

It's difficult to understand the finesse of PvP and decisions players make. I imagine that, to the casual viewer, it will oftentimes look like bland massing of units, culminating in one big fight that usually ends in a landslide victory for either side. Losing your army is a death sentence in PvP, it's almost irrelevant what happened before. Naturally, players remain rather conservative with their army movements and willingness to take fights - a bad fight is the easiest way to lose. It's all about building the right army to take the correct fight at the correct time. A struggle for perfection that can punish the slightest missteps with immediate death.


Classic does little wrong here. He's supposed to trade away zealots at this point in the game. But Stats jumps on the opportunity and punishes him. Classic instantly dies.


Even PvPs between some of the best players in the world can look like your everyday ladder game in NA gold league. It's a matchup we can often relate to - but that's not usually a positive thing. Seeing professional players die to the same low ground cannon rush on Yeonsu that platinum leaguers used to lose to 24/7 does feel a little wrong, right? Maybe it does. But there's a certain familiarity to it at least. And I suppose it makes it easier to take that sort of loss if people who get paid to play SCII lose to the same damn thing. At least it's not just you. It's just a stupid matchup at times.


Every protoss has played this game.


These types of games can often feel anticlimactic. One player gets a lead early through a build order advantage, runs with it and wins the game. Perhaps he even kills the other guy right away. At least the game ends quickly in that case.
But once you look past the surface, past the laser-firing blobs, there's an extremely intelligent and systematic matchup behind it. And, you know, the occasional cannon rush.


Some things blossom late



What's important to understand is that luck-dependent build order gambling is just one approach to PvP, albeit one that's always been popular. Once the 4-gate was nerfed out of the spotlight in WoL and maps began to make a little more sense, things started to branch out. Naturally, when a new world unfolds before people's eyes, there's a lot of confusion involved. The following build order flippery probably didn't help the reputation of PvP. DT rushes, gateway all ins, blink all ins, not an expansion in sight? Yeah, I don't miss early-mid WoL PvP either. Some of its core elements still exist in modern PvP, the coinflip is definitely still a viable option to play the mirror. InCa still consistently ferries victims across the styx in a cloaked boat.

But somewhere along the way, PvP found its inner peace... or something like that. Build order choices were more and more influenced by maps, streamlined standard builds emerged and bad builds were filtered out and abandoned. What had once been a 1-base only slugfest, became a much more demanding riddle. Expansions came into play. People began thinking about lategame army compositions. It's amazingly telling that the "perfect" lategame army in PvP was only discovered slightly before the end of WoL, by a player who hadn't played the game for most of its existence. PvP was a breathing, evolving matchup throughout all of WoL until Rain finally seemed to have figured it out entirely. And by that point we were already moving on to HotS.


Arguably the most educating PvP series played in WoL happened incredibly late on.

+ Show Spoiler +
Rain vs LiquidHerO G2
Rain vs LiquidHerO G3


And then suddenly we were in HotS. The MSC entered the fray. People were 1-gate expanding. There were no low ground -> high ground warpins anymore and the 4-gate died with them. Oracles were introduced. Void rays became even more skillful. But the MSC finally gave the matchup the stability it needed to evolve. It gave players the opportunity to tech quickly, expand safely, while still being susceptible to intelligent pressure builds and all ins. No more mindless 4-gating. Now you were forced to find ways to drain MSC energy before attacking. Detection on oracles gave stargate openings much needed depth. The increase in blink research time made it much harder (but far from impossible) to kill people with blink all ins. Timewarp allowed charge/archon/immortal compositions to rival colossus armies and offered a different way to play midgame PvP. Tempests could break mass colossus armies.

Every unit has its place in HotS PvP. I have seen every single protoss unit used to great effect in the matchup. You thought carriers would never be made ever again? Think again. Storm sucks in PvP? Not anymore it doesn't! Void rays are pretty terrible, right? Maybe they're not that bad after all.
This breadth of utilizable units in different scenarios makes the matchup very dynamic and complex. It does, however, also make it more unforgiving. There's a huge amount of possibilities to consider in PvP at any point in time, often with very limited scouting information, making it that much easier to make mistakes.


The gods of PvP



"PvP is pure skill. Pure micro. If anyone thinks they can win using luck, I will play you and I will beat you." - Oz
Oz' famous last words will forever linger over the matchup like a cloud dripping with irony. The wizard, at that point arguably the best PvPer in the world, got his fair punishment for rebelling against the coin, as he then went on to lose every single PvP he played for weeks, months even. The coin-god deemed him unworthy and stripped him of his powers. Why? Because Oz was wrong. PvP is not all skill. The very thought that it was made Oz weak and vulnerable. He believed to have found the perfect way to play the matchup, but he was wrong. There is no perfect way to approach PvP.

Stats has learned from Oz' mistakes. He does not speak in absolutes about the matchup, because it doesn't function that way. Sometimes, as he correctly states, you have to pray. Pray to InCa, the coin-god, pray to whatever god makes the other guy move command his army. Sometimes. That very word sums up what PvP is about. It's not drawn in black and white, it's like a modern art painting that has colors splattered all over the place. An obscurity you can't figure out what on earth you're supposed to make of.

And that's supposed to be a good thing? If you're looking for action, as most of you claim to be, yes. Every second of PvP is important to the eventual outcome of the game. Even the very first. Does a probe get sent out to proxy? Does someone open with an early gateway? Single gas, double gas? Single gate, double gate? Tech before units? MSC scout? This list continues forever and ever. Protoss is an extremely fragile race and in no other matchup does the house come tumbling down as fast as it does in PvP. Each split second decision can result in a great lead, a win even, or instant death. There might not always be units firing at each other or hectically running across the map, but there's relentless action going on inside the mind.

"Sometimes in PvP, you just have to cross your fingers and pray you win the fight." - Stats
Here's an example. In a 3-gate blink vs 3-gate oracle opener, each player can come out significantly ahead. If the blink player has his stalkers out of position to defend the first oracle and is forced to use overcharge, the oracle player is in a great spot. The blink player is forced to leave 2-3 stalkers at home to defend his mineral line and no longer has enough units to put enough pressure on the opponent to cancel an expansion. This means that the oracle player now has map control, a faster robotics facility and an early and safe expansion.

Let's rewind this scenario. The blink player deflects the first oracle without having to use overcharge. He can now move across the map and leave his mineral line empty, knowing that there is at least one overcharge available to defend it from the oracle. The stargate player is going to have trouble holding a nexus. The blink player can expand and pressure at the same time. The stargate player may even be forced to build a void ray and immortals to hold his expansion, giving the blink player ample time to tech up in the meantime. The game can swing either way extremely quickly with just that one overcharge, that one click.

That's PvP in a nutshell.


Embrace the coin



Remember herO vs sOs at IEM Katowice 2014? Godawful final, wasn't it? And yet the very same player who cheesed out herO with proxy gates to win 100k, went on to play this fantastic game just weeks later. How is that possible? It's simple, really. sOs had herO figured out. He was inside his head from the very first second. There's a difference between his proxy gates in a huge final and your most recent ladder death after all. What made sOs such a successful PvPer is that he embraced the coin when he deemed it his best chance at winning. herO had to learn the truth the hard way. He was looking to beat sOs in skill, and he paid for his insolence. One player had a certain idea of how PvP was supposed to be played, the other had an idea of how to win. PvP takes no prisoners, and neither did sOs.


His faith was obviously rewarded.



You may argue that flipping coins correctly is not a skill. I disagree. It's always existed, in every game ever played. Risks and rewards spice up life and make it fun. Few matchups are as spicy as PvP. There's always a risk to take, a corner to cut. Just an example: every tech path is viable as both a 1-base build and an expand -> tech build in PvP. Every tech can be proxied. Gateways can be proxied. Goddamn natural bases can be proxied. It's not often that you find this much variety in a game where two players have the exact same tools available to them.


... but don't let it control you.



But if luck plays that big a role in PvP and it's so volatile, how come some players have ridiculously high winrates in it?

The answer to that is quite straight forward. Most openings in PvP have the capability of dealing with most other builds, if adapted correctly. The very best PvPers are most likely to use these sort of openings. They're the way to go if you think yourself superior. And while every build has certain weaknesses in PvP and mindgames play a huge role in picking them, staying alive until the midgame is quite possible in most games. The best of the best will find ways to use every tool at their disposal and grind their way back into a game even from disadvantages. The fact that engagements are that important in PvP means that as long as you have a good army, there's hope.

So there we finally have it: the coin is not all-powerful. It is not the only god in this anarchic matchup. The skill god - let's call him Oz for giggles - is just as important a factor. The coin may lead you in the right direction, or to the occasional fluke-win, but it will not grant you greatness or the ability to win consistently. Some people are born with amazing talent to do better than others, but if they never learn to effectively put it to good use, their natural advantage will fade and the most refined will triumph over them in the end. Such is PvP. The coin can only get you so far. The rest is hard work, finesse and execution.

Nobody can win without the skill to play without the coin if needed. The best PvPers often seek to reduce the coin's influence by choosing flexible builds that require their finesse and brilliance to tick properly. Sometimes you get neither heads nor tails. And what then? You're on your own. All skill from there, as Oz would say. In mirror builds, or builds that transition into an equal game, the better player wins. It really is that simple.

Yet the one mistake that no top-PvPer dares to make is to disregard the coin, not anymore. The coin lives at the very center of PvP and all psychological skill revolves around it. It revolves around the ability to reduce its influence by playing "safely", and to capitalize on it when needed by taking the right risks at the right time. A truly great PvPer knows that the coin is omnipresent and can never be ignored. That's why PvP has developed its very own skillset, one that's as much about understanding how to play the opponent as it is about the game itself.

At the end of the day, it's true that PvP is a good matchup now. It's exciting to watch. It's crazy, it's wild, it's all over the place. There are sprinkles of early WoL and its cheesy shenanigans and numerous pressure or all in builds off one and two bases. There are also plenty of safe and solid macro oriented openings that came with HotS. And yet there's players who have managed 70%+ winrates in the matchup. That's what makes it fascinating. Despite all the volatility that is definitely evident in PvP, there are still ways to remain on the winning side. The art of succeeding in PvP is a craft of true masters. It is the ability to eliminate the tiniest error from one's thought process, to walk the razor-thin line between cutting corners and death. The art of punishing the smallest missteps, and the art of drilling your way into an opponent's mind. To become a truly great PvPer, one must abandon all pride and ideals and focus on what's most important: winning. Sometimes that means consulting the coin, other times you'd do best to keep your hands off it.

It is the good, the bad and the ugly all in one and it is about more than raw ability. Skill-purists may hate it for that exact reason but to me it makes PvP that much more intriguing.


Writer: DarkLordOlli
Graphics: V1
Photo Credit: IEM
Editor: DarkLordOlli
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TL+ Member
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55511 Posts
June 14 2015 08:39 GMT
#2
We got through a PvP article by DLO with Zest's only appearances coming from vods? I'm astonished.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Dumbledore
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden725 Posts
June 14 2015 08:44 GMT
#3
How dare you make such a claim about coin flips? I will find you, and I will defeat you, in PvP, 10 out of 10 times.
Have a nice day ;)
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13974 Posts
June 14 2015 09:10 GMT
#4
On June 14 2015 17:39 Elentos wrote:
We got through a PvP article by DLO with Zest's only appearances coming from vods? I'm astonished.

More surprised by lack of HerO but yea
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
xAdra
Profile Joined July 2012
Singapore1858 Posts
June 14 2015 09:20 GMT
#5
Besides a brief phase in early plat when I thought this matchup was all coinflip, I've always liked the matchup for the intelligence you need. Cannon rush fucks things up but when both players play well it kinda feels like a fighting game where you have to constantly get reads and switch up your playstyle accordingly.
Advantageous
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
China1350 Posts
June 14 2015 09:38 GMT
#6
On June 14 2015 18:20 xAdra wrote:
Besides a brief phase in early plat when I thought this matchup was all coinflip, I've always liked the matchup for the intelligence you need. Cannon rush fucks things up but when both players play well it kinda feels like a fighting game where you have to constantly get reads and switch up your playstyle accordingly.


no. there's a difference between ladder and the tournament matches like the article is talking about... i once had the chance to play the former Liquid`Tyler in a BO1, like herO i thought we were both going to play standard... but i got four-gated... the difference is: the coin toss between players' mindsets is ultimately what make PvP so volatile
"Because I am BossToss" -MC ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ raise your dongers ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ I'm sure that all of my fellow class mates viewed me as the Adonis of the Class of 2015 already. -Xenocider, EG, ieF 2013 Champion.
Heartland
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Sweden24580 Posts
June 14 2015 09:53 GMT
#7
Honestly every MU needs to be broken down into different categories, such as early-mid-late game. It's true that PvP early game is chaotic and there is a degree of coin-flipping but the mid and late games are growing incredibly predictable. Almost every Korean goes into Blink in the early mid-game and with that it's hard to just randomly die to stuff. In PvZ there are a lot of chances to do crazy things, a pressure into a pressure into DTs into templars into etc etc. In PvP it's more like you're opening up blind and stacking your odds in your favor and then you go into Blink and then Colossus.
Odowan Paleolithic
Profile Blog Joined May 2013
United States232 Posts
June 14 2015 10:15 GMT
#8
I was wishing for a list of build orders and how they interact.....
I need a bigger fridge. I cannot hold all the Cheese that are given to me.
HewTheTitan
Profile Joined February 2015
Canada331 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-14 10:40:29
June 14 2015 10:27 GMT
#9
What do they call the people who write this sort of thing... Apologists?

So we would call this...

Blizzard Apologists/ Coin Flip Apologetics?

It was well written at least

You may argue that flipping coins correctly is not a skill. I disagree. It's always existed, in every game ever played. Risks and rewards spice up life and make it fun. Few matchups are as spicy as PvP. There's always a risk to take, a corner to cut. Just an example: every tech path is viable as both a 1-base build and an expand -> tech build in PvP. Every tech can be proxied. Gateways can be proxied. Goddamn natural bases can be proxied. It's not often that you find this much variety in a game where two players have the exact same tools available to them.


That isn't called skill or control, it's called gambling. I don't log in to battle.net to end up in a casino. Actually, these days I don't log on to battle.net very often any more because it's a little like a casino so often...

Btw, seriously, never go to a casino with that attitude...

Risks and rewards spice up life and make it fun.


People want control over their fate. They want to craft and execute a superior strategy and make intelligent reads, not die to bad luck and the giggles of Dustin Browder. I definitely semi-quit sc2 because of the randomness. Haven't even used my lotv beta key yet...

StarCraft and the RTS genre is dying. Instead of standing up for it's WORST features, we should show a united front against them before LOTV has it's final release.

reminds me of this game. Poor Flash did so much to scout. Scan, reaper, marines. What's he to do? If God died here, what are we to do besides pray?

Poor, poor, poor Flash...
Wildmoon
Profile Joined December 2011
Thailand4189 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-14 10:51:28
June 14 2015 10:48 GMT
#10
On June 14 2015 19:27 HewTheTitan wrote:
What do they call the people who write this sort of thing... Apologists?

So we would call this...

Blizzard Apologists/ Coin Flip Apologetics?

It was well written at least

Show nested quote +
You may argue that flipping coins correctly is not a skill. I disagree. It's always existed, in every game ever played. Risks and rewards spice up life and make it fun. Few matchups are as spicy as PvP. There's always a risk to take, a corner to cut. Just an example: every tech path is viable as both a 1-base build and an expand -> tech build in PvP. Every tech can be proxied. Gateways can be proxied. Goddamn natural bases can be proxied. It's not often that you find this much variety in a game where two players have the exact same tools available to them.


That isn't called skill or control, it's called gambling. I don't log in to battle.net to end up in a casino. Actually, these days I don't log on to battle.net very often any more because it's a little like a casino so often...

Btw, seriously, never go to a casino with that attitude...

Show nested quote +
Risks and rewards spice up life and make it fun.


People want control over their fate. They want to craft and execute a superior strategy and make intelligent reads, not die to bad luck and the giggles of Dustin Browder. I definitely semi-quit sc2 because of the randomness. Haven't even used my lotv beta key yet...

StarCraft and the RTS genre is dying. Instead of standing up for it's WORST features, we should show a united front against them before LOTV has it's final release.

reminds me of this game. Poor Flash did so much to scout. Scan, reaper, marines. What's he to do? If God died here, what are we to do besides pray?

Poor, poor, poor Flash...


Because he couldn't genuinely like PvP? He must be apologist!. I also rarely lose my game because of randomness. There are always things here and there that I did wrong or miss. The fact that there are really good PvPers out there mean that the MU could be controlled to some degree.
MoonyD
Profile Joined December 2013
Australia191 Posts
June 14 2015 11:03 GMT
#11
Sadly, PvP isn't as fun as it used to be to watch and play and that's mainly due to the change in the Tempest I feel. Removing the additional damage to massive meant that Tempests became no longer a counter to Colossus. Which meant that zealot/immortal/tempests can no longer be a legitimate late game army vs zealot/immortal/colossus.
The world wants to be deceived
munch
Profile Joined July 2014
Mute City2363 Posts
June 14 2015 11:13 GMT
#12
On June 14 2015 19:27 HewTheTitan wrote:
reminds me of this game. Poor Flash did so much to scout. Scan, reaper, marines. What's he to do? If God died here, what are we to do besides pray?

Poor, poor, poor Flash...


Flash also did all he could to scout in this game as well



Poor poor Flash.

How could he have known not to salvage?

WriterForm is temporary, MMA is permanent || http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/508630-article-archive
TheBloodyDwarf
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
Finland7524 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-14 11:31:59
June 14 2015 11:18 GMT
#13
PvP has always been the best mirror match up.

Most of the people hated IEM Katowice 2014 but I loved it. I was just sitting on my chair frozen and thinking how awesome is that. sOs had balls of steel.

And if we cut end of the wol out, PvP has always been my best mu. So maybe that is one of the reason I think PvP is the best mirror.

PvP has been so logical to me always. At least in WoL there was clear build/units that won other units. Somebody goes blink --> I go robo.

elfi king of the PvP! He peaked 70% winrate in PvP during WoL
Fusilero: "I still can't believe he did that, like dude what the fuck there's fandom and then there's what he did like holy shit. I still see it when I close my eyes." <- reaction to the original drunk santa post which later caught on
KrOmander
Profile Joined August 2014
United Kingdom78 Posts
June 14 2015 11:40 GMT
#14
Some PvP games really show off a player's strategical play and I can not say I haven't watched some really good PvP games in the past. I still do not think it is a great match up due to the relatively common occurrence of coin flip victories, demonstrations of how warp gate is maybe not the best idea in an economy based RTS and late game collussi engagements that really are not impressive in terms of skill.
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24193 Posts
June 14 2015 12:04 GMT
#15
I hope PvP, which is in a rather fine state as of now, doesn't get ruined by LotV (especially adepts openings). Nice insightful article.
Thyrym
Profile Joined December 2013
89 Posts
June 14 2015 12:10 GMT
#16
PvP, for me, is that thing that im awful, but i love watching it, my PvP winrate is 25%, while my PvT is 82% and PvZ is 71%...

Its such a complex matchup, its the easiest matchup to die, to make mistakes, yet, is the one that rewards the most on the thing you get right.
AxiomBlurr
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
786 Posts
June 14 2015 13:09 GMT
#17
Yeah the PvP masters like sOs, Elfi, Parting and Zest seem to ride a different roller coaster to the rest of us in PvP. I will go days without winning a PvP and then hit a streak of three to four in a row. For the PvP masters it goes: Streak of 4-5, lose 1-2, streak 4-5...

I think the progression of Rain's PvP highlights the match up extremely elegantly. Orginally he was always playing safe in PvP but as the meta evolved in HotS - he now mixes is it up to a Parting level.

For me sOs is the PvP god, no one seems to be able to match him in balancing the

PvP equation:

$ x P x C/M + m = Win Quotient

Where:
$ = Coinflip
P = Positioning
C = Cheese
M = Macro
m = Micro

Alucen-Will-
Profile Joined October 2014
United States4054 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-14 13:25:46
June 14 2015 13:21 GMT
#18
Fairly decent article although I was hoping you would go a bit more in depth on specifics of builds/strategies. I think many people would agree with your analysis provided you provide more details behind your reasoning.

For the most part I think PvP is one of the better match ups in the game once you get beyond the 1 base phase of the game.
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
June 14 2015 13:39 GMT
#19
PvP is the second best MU behind ZvZ. That's the truth.
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
SnowfaLL
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada730 Posts
June 14 2015 13:45 GMT
#20
I used to love PvP back in WoL when I was gm, because I did feel superior to most of the players. I played a safe build (the 2gate 3stalker before warp build) which always found the pylon before the 4gate came, and I scouted extensively for cannon rushes.. I felt that 90% of the time, I could always defend the cheese/4g unless something extremely lucky (4p map and i scout him last as he proxy 2g or something) so it was a good match.

Where the match turned to shit is the lategame collosus battles. That is the shitty part about PvP and what made me hate it. I like HotS when there were other options than collosus but it still turned into that in the lategame.

Anyways, I do believe PvP is all about micro skill (until collosus ball endgame), and thats why some people hate it (the ones who love super safe openings) and some people like myself love it. Lotv looks interesting with adepts always getting something earlygame, but it gives options now with disruptors and etc. I like it.
Favorites: Moon, Grubby, Naniwa, TAiLS, viOLeT, DongRaeGu
Silvana
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
3713 Posts
June 14 2015 15:12 GMT
#21
PvP <3 Loved this article, but I think it's too short moar pls!
There is too little Zest in it but I forgive you because you made very good points about god sOs. He knows how to turn his gambles into $$$
Thanks for the good read!
xpldngmn
Profile Joined January 2011
Austria264 Posts
June 14 2015 17:15 GMT
#22
White-Ra vs. MC at the GSL World Championships.
'nuff said
Non-native speaker, those prepositions are so hard to know.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44255 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-14 17:38:22
June 14 2015 17:38 GMT
#23
I love watching PvP, but not playing it ^^;;

Great article
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2627 Posts
June 14 2015 17:49 GMT
#24
When a MU requires an article to try and make people like it you know its a bad MU

The article was well written but I don't think there will ever come a time where I think it isn't the worst MU (let alone a good one) but thats just personal opinion
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
June 14 2015 18:08 GMT
#25
Great article... except for the lack of elfi

Watching lots of elfi and welmu has definitely increased my appreciation for the MU :D
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33360 Posts
June 14 2015 18:30 GMT
#26
the outpouring of love for elfi brings a tear to my eye
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
June 14 2015 18:55 GMT
#27
On June 15 2015 03:30 Waxangel wrote:
the outpouring of love for elfi brings a tear to my eye


The one true protoss god
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Darkhorse
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States23455 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-14 19:31:41
June 14 2015 19:31 GMT
#28
Quick everyone guess who wrote this

EDIT: seriously though well done Olli :D
WriterRecently Necro'd (?)
egrimm
Profile Joined September 2011
Poland1199 Posts
June 14 2015 20:56 GMT
#29
Great article, cannot agree more
I remember watching IEM WC 2014 live, and how the whole crowd was rooting for her0 and felt robbed of great games because of that "stupid, no-skill proxy rushes" whlist I was purely amazed how well did sOs prepared for that final and how he went total bedlam in her0's mind. Also I love sOs so I was really happy seeing him win

PvP is less about robotic execution of builds, it's more about reading your opponent, through his playstyle, his habits and behaviour under pressure, find tendencies and inclination he may have and use that knowledge against him. That's why that matchup is the best in long BOX series, rather than BO1 on ladder
sOs TY PartinG
RaiKageRyu
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada4773 Posts
June 14 2015 21:39 GMT
#30
This write up was so good that it actually made me hype for wanting to watch a PvP.
Someone call down the Thunder?
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
June 15 2015 09:56 GMT
#31
On June 14 2015 20:18 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
PvP has always been the best mirror match up.

Most of the people hated IEM Katowice 2014 but I loved it. I was just sitting on my chair frozen and thinking how awesome is that. sOs had balls of steel.

And if we cut end of the wol out, PvP has always been my best mu. So maybe that is one of the reason I think PvP is the best mirror.

PvP has been so logical to me always. At least in WoL there was clear build/units that won other units. Somebody goes blink --> I go robo.

elfi king of the PvP! He peaked 70% winrate in PvP during WoL

I'm pretty sure you're confusing PvP with TvT here
But yeah PvP is now a better mirror then it was several years ago, at least you don't have 1 unit blobs crash into each other trying to see which is bigger.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
June 15 2015 11:38 GMT
#32
On June 14 2015 22:39 OtherWorld wrote:
PvP is the second best MU behind ZvZ. That's the truth.


True. I love so much the ling baneling battle "if you sneeze you die".
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
showstealer1829
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Australia3123 Posts
June 15 2015 12:17 GMT
#33
PvP Mirror Best Mirror
There is no understanding. There is only Choya. Choya is the way. Choya is Love. Choya is Life. Has is the Light in the Protoss Dark and Nightmare is his chosen Acolyte
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
June 15 2015 13:24 GMT
#34
On June 15 2015 02:15 xpldngmn wrote:
White-Ra vs. MC at the GSL World Championships.
'nuff said

That Shakuras proxy tho
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-15 15:47:08
June 15 2015 15:44 GMT
#35
I feel like typically PvP is not appreciated as much by non Protoss players because TO THEM it seems coinflippy. But there are small reads that Protoss players can make based on their own experiences that can tell a lot about what the other guy is doing. There's also a lot of meta gaming that goes on in the matchup since Protoss is a very stylistic race.

It has also gotten a LOT better in HotS. I don't dread getting a PvP on ladder anymore the way I used to.

TvT, PvP > ZvZ imo.

Once you get past ling bane micro it's just giant groups of 1-2 unit types A-moving at each other until the bigger one wins.

ZvZ is actually better in LotV IMO with the introduction of the Lurker and the new economy forcing you to expand more (which makes Muta more viable as a way to deny them and get ahead).
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Cazimirbzh
Profile Joined February 2014
334 Posts
June 15 2015 16:15 GMT
#36
So i am guessing DLO wants to strat some flame wars with this thread ^^
I think if you believe that pvp is coinflip, u should go allin every game. Also if u have no gambling in your strategy, u can go allin too :p
I'll never count wol era because it wasnt really entertaining. PvP is bit better now that midgame is more stable, still waiting for lategame^^ but if you look at other MU they all have their downside dead zvz (plz banneling micro plz banneling micro^^) or mirror 1-1-1 for terran.
And that's what i like about pvp, u have to choose your decisions

Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12162 Posts
June 15 2015 17:57 GMT
#37
On June 16 2015 00:44 DinoMight wrote:
Once you get past ling bane micro it's just giant groups of 1-2 unit types A-moving at each other until the bigger one wins.


It's really not, but that's okay, you were just baiting anyway =p

I also like all the rationalization going on when most people who don't enjoy PvP don't enjoy it because it's composed of a protoss playing another protoss, pretty much in the same way I don't enjoy TvT because I don't like terran design and I hate most terran players.
No will to live, no wish to die
w3c.TruE
Profile Joined November 2013
Czech Republic1055 Posts
June 15 2015 20:05 GMT
#38
Great read! PvP is the best and most entertaining matchup by far. Early- and mid-game is just awesome.
Dream, Dark, herO, PartinG, RorO, Bbyong, Rain, soO, PtitDrogo <3. Goodbye RorO, MC you were awesome! You will be remembered!
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-15 20:56:50
June 15 2015 20:53 GMT
#39
On June 16 2015 02:57 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2015 00:44 DinoMight wrote:
Once you get past ling bane micro it's just giant groups of 1-2 unit types A-moving at each other until the bigger one wins.


It's really not, but that's okay, you were just baiting anyway =p

I also like all the rationalization going on when most people who don't enjoy PvP don't enjoy it because it's composed of a protoss playing another protoss, pretty much in the same way I don't enjoy TvT because I don't like terran design and I hate most terran players.


??

Say what?

I actually like watching TvT and PvP. To me ZvZ is just not entertaining. Sure there is skill involved. But visually it just looks like two blobs puking on each other until one dies. Unlike TvT/PvP you don't see as many drops/harass/spellcasters/types of units. Once ling bane is over it's blobs. :/
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
June 15 2015 21:07 GMT
#40
On June 15 2015 03:55 ZeromuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2015 03:30 Waxangel wrote:
the outpouring of love for elfi brings a tear to my eye


The one true protoss god


HERETIC!

All hail IncA!
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Veluvian
Profile Joined December 2011
Bulgaria256 Posts
June 16 2015 06:44 GMT
#41
Mentioning sOs is right on time - a perfect example for a toss who can combine pure luck with pure master skill. Oz is one of my favorites to in all SCII history, but from what I saw, I still am happy just like I've watched yesterday when sOs got the Blizzcon 2013 trophy and surprised all. Last year, Classic almost did it and yet no one could vote for him.

There are just some good protoss players who come "from the shadows" and establish some new level of play.
Oz; MMA; Rain; sOs; Classic, Soulkey, TY, Dark
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
June 16 2015 08:01 GMT
#42
On June 16 2015 05:53 DinoMight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2015 02:57 Nebuchad wrote:
On June 16 2015 00:44 DinoMight wrote:
Once you get past ling bane micro it's just giant groups of 1-2 unit types A-moving at each other until the bigger one wins.


It's really not, but that's okay, you were just baiting anyway =p

I also like all the rationalization going on when most people who don't enjoy PvP don't enjoy it because it's composed of a protoss playing another protoss, pretty much in the same way I don't enjoy TvT because I don't like terran design and I hate most terran players.


??

Say what?

I actually like watching TvT and PvP. To me ZvZ is just not entertaining. Sure there is skill involved. But visually it just looks like two blobs puking on each other until one dies. Unlike TvT/PvP you don't see as many drops/harass/spellcasters/types of units. Once ling bane is over it's blobs. :/


Don't worry. Even i, Zerg player doesn't understand half of the roach battle.

OK player A have : a better concave, upgrades.
Player B win the fight.

WTF ?
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-16 15:50:05
June 16 2015 15:33 GMT
#43
On June 16 2015 17:01 FFW_Rude wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2015 05:53 DinoMight wrote:
On June 16 2015 02:57 Nebuchad wrote:
On June 16 2015 00:44 DinoMight wrote:
Once you get past ling bane micro it's just giant groups of 1-2 unit types A-moving at each other until the bigger one wins.


It's really not, but that's okay, you were just baiting anyway =p

I also like all the rationalization going on when most people who don't enjoy PvP don't enjoy it because it's composed of a protoss playing another protoss, pretty much in the same way I don't enjoy TvT because I don't like terran design and I hate most terran players.


??

Say what?

I actually like watching TvT and PvP. To me ZvZ is just not entertaining. Sure there is skill involved. But visually it just looks like two blobs puking on each other until one dies. Unlike TvT/PvP you don't see as many drops/harass/spellcasters/types of units. Once ling bane is over it's blobs. :/


OK player A have : a better concave, upgrades.
Player B win the fight.

WTF ?


Haha, so true. I have no fucking idea how but it always happens. Even casters get thrown off by it.

I think if your concave is too good it's counter productive. Because your roaches will shoot different roaches but his roaches will "focus fire" yours since they can only reach certain roaches. Does that make sense at all?

Edit- around the edges, where the concave is spread the thinnest.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
June 16 2015 18:53 GMT
#44
On June 17 2015 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2015 17:01 FFW_Rude wrote:
On June 16 2015 05:53 DinoMight wrote:
On June 16 2015 02:57 Nebuchad wrote:
On June 16 2015 00:44 DinoMight wrote:
Once you get past ling bane micro it's just giant groups of 1-2 unit types A-moving at each other until the bigger one wins.


It's really not, but that's okay, you were just baiting anyway =p

I also like all the rationalization going on when most people who don't enjoy PvP don't enjoy it because it's composed of a protoss playing another protoss, pretty much in the same way I don't enjoy TvT because I don't like terran design and I hate most terran players.


??

Say what?

I actually like watching TvT and PvP. To me ZvZ is just not entertaining. Sure there is skill involved. But visually it just looks like two blobs puking on each other until one dies. Unlike TvT/PvP you don't see as many drops/harass/spellcasters/types of units. Once ling bane is over it's blobs. :/


OK player A have : a better concave, upgrades.
Player B win the fight.

WTF ?


Haha, so true. I have no fucking idea how but it always happens. Even casters get thrown off by it.

I think if your concave is too good it's counter productive. Because your roaches will shoot different roaches but his roaches will "focus fire" yours since they can only reach certain roaches. Does that make sense at all?

Edit- around the edges, where the concave is spread the thinnest.

ZvZ is an art that mere mortals fail to understand
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-17 11:13:45
June 17 2015 11:13 GMT
#45
On June 17 2015 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2015 17:01 FFW_Rude wrote:
On June 16 2015 05:53 DinoMight wrote:
On June 16 2015 02:57 Nebuchad wrote:
On June 16 2015 00:44 DinoMight wrote:
Once you get past ling bane micro it's just giant groups of 1-2 unit types A-moving at each other until the bigger one wins.


It's really not, but that's okay, you were just baiting anyway =p

I also like all the rationalization going on when most people who don't enjoy PvP don't enjoy it because it's composed of a protoss playing another protoss, pretty much in the same way I don't enjoy TvT because I don't like terran design and I hate most terran players.


??

Say what?

I actually like watching TvT and PvP. To me ZvZ is just not entertaining. Sure there is skill involved. But visually it just looks like two blobs puking on each other until one dies. Unlike TvT/PvP you don't see as many drops/harass/spellcasters/types of units. Once ling bane is over it's blobs. :/


OK player A have : a better concave, upgrades.
Player B win the fight.

WTF ?


Haha, so true. I have no fucking idea how but it always happens. Even casters get thrown off by it.

I think if your concave is too good it's counter productive. Because your roaches will shoot different roaches but his roaches will "focus fire" yours since they can only reach certain roaches. Does that make sense at all?

Edit- around the edges, where the concave is spread the thinnest.



Maybe. I remember watching 4 replays of a teammates asking why he lost because he didn't get it. And there were replays of roach wars with same upgrade, same map and we were like : "WTF did you win that ?" and "WTF did you lose that ?"

Mirrors are always complex.
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
D-light
Profile Joined April 2012
Finland7364 Posts
June 17 2015 12:36 GMT
#46
Not sure if I can take a PvP article seriously when it's lacking elfi.

Good effort though.
why even
14CC
Profile Blog Joined May 2015
93 Posts
June 17 2015 14:58 GMT
#47
On June 15 2015 22:24 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2015 02:15 xpldngmn wrote:
White-Ra vs. MC at the GSL World Championships.
'nuff said

That Shakuras proxy tho

Starcraft can be a heart-breaking game when the least awful player is bested by Fog of War.
TheBatman
Profile Joined January 2011
United States209 Posts
July 17 2015 08:34 GMT
#48
Great write up, thanks for the nostalgia and analysis DLO.

Even though your love of Protoss is something I will never understand, your articles always make me appreciate Protoss ever so slightly more.

Keep it up!
Ty2
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States1434 Posts
July 17 2015 08:43 GMT
#49
--- Nuked ---
Writer
NeThZOR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
South Africa7387 Posts
July 17 2015 08:47 GMT
#50
Watching a PvP between Rain and Classic right now at IEM. What a gorgeous matchup this still is.
SuperNova - 2015 | SKT1 fan for years | Dear, FlaSh, PartinG, Soulkey, Naniwa
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