Hello my name is Jin, the head of eXP’s operation for Twitch.
During GSL Season 2, we’ve started providing Medium quality to provide better experience to everyone.
We, the Twitch operators, have pushed the company hard for this to happen and as result we were able to serve Medium quality starting from Season 2 Code S.
But, even with the support from the users, it became low profitable business that we had to reconsider about investing anything more to the Global broadcast.
As a result we’ve decided to change the free stream quality back to Low.
This decision was made because we believe it’s better to have GSL than not to.
We’ll do our best to provide you higher production value of contents.
Low Quality isn't going to be any better for business, in fact it'll be worse. Especially with the SSL.
On June 10 2015 15:34 -Archangel- wrote: At medium quality I spent few hours watching games. At low quality before that I spent 5 minutes watching. Now I will spend 0 minutes
I smelled BS on this. This is 2015 ffs. If they can't afford to even stream in medium, then there's something wrong with their business model. IMO, they are just trying to milk as much money as they can from subscriptions before sc2 becomes even more niche. Low quality will only drive more people away.
Blizzard should be concerned that their product is being showcased in such a restrictive fashion. However, we all know they won't do anything about it.
On June 10 2015 15:46 ilikeredheads wrote: lol low quality hype.
I smelled BS on this. This is 2015 ffs. If they can't afford to even stream in medium, then there's something wrong with their business model. IMO, they are just trying to milk as much money as they can from subscriptions before sc2 becomes even more niche. Low quality will only drive more people away.
Blizzard should be concerned that their product is being showcased in such a restrictive fashion. However, we all know they won't do anything about it.
Afaik Blizzard basically gave Gom free rein to do what they want after their negotiations and conditions for WCS.
This is just a bad joke, the low quality is like watching chess from a a 500 meter distance (without binoculars). You don't see shit, I can to a certain degree understand one stupid decision. Its one mistake, to repeat that mistake however is just stupid.
The reasoning behind it feels like total bullshit too, they're saying GSL is mainly sponsored by the global broadcast (since if the global broadcast doesnt bring in the money then GSL dies is basically what he said). Just before he says that the global broadcasts income is key to the survival of GSL he says that they have to reconsider investing anything more in the global broadcast...?
So he is saying without the income from global they cant get GSL so keep going(indicating the income is substantial and key for the company) then before he says this he says that they cant invest more making it sound like its a an investment that doesn't pay off. Which is it, is the income substantial and important or isn't it, it cant be both.
Also how is serving medium quality for free investing any more into the global stream, it doesnt really cost them jack shit to have a free medium quality. Investing means shouldering a cost, please specify what that cost is that comes with serving medium quality for free.
This is pretty disappointing. Medium quality was kind of annoying but I like GSL so I didn't care too much. The low quality stream is unwatchable. Like.. They may as well do GSL Radio. It's pretty irritating that they switched up mid-season too
But I think it's possible to watch the Korean stream in high quality, so that's what I'll be doing.
I've been very disappointed with Tastosis for a while now, lowering the stream quality back to low again will probably seal the deal for me. It's just a string of very very poor developments in recent times when it comes to the GSL: -VoD system gone -Code A gone -Tastosis in a passion slump -a lot of problems with laggy/stuttering streams -low quality
I really can't think of any reason why I should pay for the GSL at the moment. S3SL and SPL are both more entertaining and have a better production quality. But instead of taking this as an opportunity to win back the hearts of the fans GOM decides to slam the door shut. Whatever, I don't even care at this point anymore.
Oh, and this is coming from someone who used to pay for GSL for quite a while...
On June 10 2015 15:53 Kohonski wrote: This is pretty disappointing. Medium quality was kind of annoying but I like GSL so I didn't care too much. The low quality stream is unwatchable. Like.. They may as well do GSL Radio. It's pretty irritating that they switched up mid-season too
But I think it's possible to watch the Korean stream in high quality, so that's what I'll be doing.
I would really appreciate it if you could explain how to do that. I cant watch low.
Why are people disappointed in GSL for doing this? If viewership wasn't so low they wouldn't have to do this. And the reason viewership is so low because of blizzard's design. If anything it is blizzards fault for making GSL do this. Sometimes it feels that people who watch GSL only watch because they are fan of Starcraft- not as an esport. But if you took away the starcraft name and look at the gameplay itself even less viewers would be watching.
Really don't mind this change. Always been paying for GSL, and will keep supporting. A few dollars a month to have 2 great tournaments instead of 1 is worth it imo.
On June 10 2015 15:58 doihy wrote: Why are people disappointed in GSL for doing this? If viewership wasn't so low they wouldn't have to do this. And the reason viewership is so low because of blizzard's design. If anything it is blizzards fault for making GSL do this. Sometimes it feels that people who watch GSL only watch because they are fan of Starcraft- not as an esport. But if you took away the starcraft name and look at the gameplay itself even less viewers would be watching.
If its viewership they want lowering the free stream quality is the stupidest thing they can do. Pretty sure they want money not viewership.
Yeah totally agree that Blizzard has intentionally designed Sc2 so that few people would want to watch it. Also approve that most people only watch because of the starcraft name, if call of duty was named starcraft I'm sure everyone would watch that instead without noticing a difference. Clever guy
So sad to see GOM gone, but it is not just their fault. The game popularity has been deminishing and Blizzard didn't do a thing about that. An above average Hearthstone streamer has more viewers than the GSL finals lol! There is deffinately something wrong here! And lowering the stream quality will not fix the issue.
For the longest time the highest level of SC2 came out of GOMtv low quality. It's hard enough to tell what's going on with HQ resoution in game as a regular player. How could you ever share this with a friend ..... or even watch it in your own leisure time.
I am ok with that. When I was a student I watched it on low. I got free entertainment! Now that I work I pay for the stream, I save money by not investing in crap programmes on tv.
Lets be honest, the GSL is by far the best SC2 show out there. (and probably the most expensive to produce) Yes other shows have good stuff, but really the GSL is were it is.
On June 10 2015 16:15 str10_hurts wrote: I am ok with that. When I was a student I watched it on low. I got free entertainment! Now that I work I pay for the stream, I save money by not investing in crap programmes on tv.
Lets be honest, the GSL is by far the best SC2 show out there. Yes other shows have good stuff, but really the GSL is were it is.
I prefer Proleague, GSL has 2 casters who wish they were casting other games and is equal in game quality to S2SL, so there's really no reason to watch anymore is there?
I don't see in what way they were investing when they allowed non subscribers access to medium quality but OK. Sounds much more likely that they did a test where they'd run a season on low, and then another on medium, to see if subscriptions would remain constant or improve while at the same time improve viewership, and it failed.
I think it is disappointing that butchering the experience is their way of encouraging people to subscribe to them. And even then, you have to pay even more if you want the best quality.. As if it's somehow significantly more costly for them if I use the source quality stream from the twitch server?
On June 10 2015 16:15 str10_hurts wrote: I am ok with that. When I was a student I watched it on low. I got free entertainment! Now that I work I pay for the stream, I save money by not investing in crap programmes on tv.
Lets be honest, the GSL is by far the best SC2 show out there. (and probably the most expensive to produce) Yes other shows have good stuff, but really the GSL is were it is.
the casting is really bad compared to proleague though and this shitting on foreigner fans thing is getting really annoying really quickly.
I suppose this is a direct result of the slump in interest of SC2 over the last year and is understandable. Its a shame this more than likely going to drive even more viewers away, perhaps to the point of being completely non viable.
On June 10 2015 16:15 str10_hurts wrote: I am ok with that. When I was a student I watched it on low. I got free entertainment! Now that I work I pay for the stream, I save money by not investing in crap programmes on tv.
Lets be honest, the GSL is by far the best SC2 show out there. Yes other shows have good stuff, but really the GSL is were it is.
I prefer Proleague, GSL has 2 casters who wish they were casting other games and is equal in game quality to S2SL, so there's really no reason to watch anymore is there?
And they are still the best casters by far, isn't that sad? If I compare it to Valdez/Wolf/Moonglade team or ESL casting teams, I still pick the GSL team. Professional team without any strong accent and without the "scream into the oblivion" syndrome when something is happening.
Though I must say, that Tasteless Moonglade was really insanely good and entertaining casting duo. And the "A" team would be the best, but we don't have it on a regular basis (A Team = Apollo Artosis)
BTW Thanks to air time of this show I watch it on low all the time and everything is watchable usually (maybe the Twitch player is bad, since I use VLC)
Now they'll have an even lower viewership. Hopefully they'll still be around by the time LotV comes out, coz that's when they'll get some profits back for sure.
On June 10 2015 16:24 Noocta wrote: If GOM is trying to make the english stream pay for itself through twitch adds, I think they're stupidly naive tho.
No, they're trying to make subscribers pay for it. Pretty obvious with this move. If they wanted twitch adds to pay for it, they would have Source for free.
I will subscribe.. i like the GSL, and i don't think that the Starcraft scene can live on free content only. Sad but true :-/ Sometimes you have to make the unpopular decisions.
On June 10 2015 16:24 Noocta wrote: If GOM is trying to make the english stream pay for itself through twitch adds, I think they're stupidly naive tho.
No, they're trying to make subscribers pay for it. Pretty obvious with this move. If they wanted twitch adds to pay for it, they would have Source for free.
Of course, but seems to me they have no idea how to make people buy subscriptions other than by making the non subscribers experience worse.
Wow if they are really struggling money wise...they are in huge trouble now lol. Literally better option would be give 720p for free and spam adds 100x more.
As someone who makes a living off banner ads I sympathize with their plight, but in a world where every bit of content I watch is in HD and free it's hard to stomach. I can't help but think barriers to entry to seeing SC2 are ultimately a very bad thing right now.
Wait, they upped it to Medium? I guess I was too busy not watching that blurry screen I didn't even get to hear that they upgraded it to a mostly blurry screen.
Sad for GOM that they are facing such difficulty in a time when other leagues outdo them heavily in production, popularity is plunging and there are so much other Korean starcraft content to watch. Maybe they are just barely keeping the league alive with Blizz money.
Still I dont see how streaming is such an issue that irritates both GOM and us spectators, especially on such crappy platform in Twitch. Hows about Youtube and Azubu?
well i guess ill go from watching GSL rarely because of the time to not at all again i guess, ssl has the same games with better quality and theres proleague aswell now. that and honestly id put tastosis quite far down the pecking order of casters nowadays, i just dont find them entertaining, and there clearly not interested in sc2 anymore.
sad to see gom going this way, hoepfull lotv will bail them out and keep it going for a while wierd there struggling when all signs are pointing to sc2 being the most popular that its been in korea for a while, maybe they just cant adapt with the competition
I feel it's fair. If you don't pay, why do people feel so entitled to HQ stream? >_>
They try their best to earn money of their product, and they seem to think that they will earn more from the paying viewers than they will lose on advertisement from the leaving non-paying viewers. With ad-block and all, I really don't think a free viewer is worth much more than what they pay for the bandwidth. I think a paying viewer is worth a lot of free viewers at least, especially if you subtract the bandwidth costs, so even if they lose 100 free viewers for every new subscriber, I think they will gain from the switch.
"But all the other tournaments are free!" Yeah, maybe they don't have the attraction to get many paying viewers. As a few posters have said, GSL is the most prestigious tournament (or so many think), so many people are ready to pay to see it, even with other "lesser" tournaments available for free. Which is why this move is an option for GSL, but probably not viable for any other tournament, as very few would actually pay for it. It's not a matter of the other tournaments being nice and passionate about SC2, it's just not a good move for them to shut out free views.
especially these days, where i seem to be getting more and more annoyed at tasteless 'casting'.. if you can call it that.. imo his voice is really unpleasant and he seems to be at a loss for words more often than not.. yes, he's done great things for starcarft&esports in general blablabla.. i get that, but the quality of casting i get in proleague or ssl is just so much higher every way i look at it.. so now gom tells me i can't see the details of what's happening anymore and i don't wanna listen to the guy who's supposed to tell me what's happening.. if gom hires someone else instead i will consider watching again..
i'll be reading the results on liquipedia, at least there i can see the numbers clearly..
On June 10 2015 16:31 Pandemona wrote: Wow if they are really struggling money wise...they are in huge trouble now lol. Literally better option would be give 720p for free and spam adds 100x more.
I subbed for a year then stopped. Since even with 720 stream there is 15min long non-banner ads that is worse than any other tournament. "Your game, done right".
So the only value of subscription is to watch Vods before season ends. But if you are not in a hurry to watch live why not just wait longer?
Thanks to Sbenu so we can finally have some reasonable ads.
On June 10 2015 16:35 graNite wrote: the biggest joke is how they want to get paid for the english stream but koreans get free hd. is this the racism khaldor was talking about?
Considering they have to compete with LoL I guess they just can't afford to put SC2 behind a paywall in Korea, but tbh I won't support this re-reverting to further milk western audiences while they sit in the studio and feast on pizza we've most likely paid for.
On June 10 2015 15:53 Kohonski wrote: This is pretty disappointing. Medium quality was kind of annoying but I like GSL so I didn't care too much. The low quality stream is unwatchable. Like.. They may as well do GSL Radio. It's pretty irritating that they switched up mid-season too
But I think it's possible to watch the Korean stream in high quality, so that's what I'll be doing.
I would really appreciate it if you could explain how to do that. I cant watch low.
You can watch the YT stream (Korean) with Hola (free VPN) or, if it works, R1CH's Wizard stream (also in Korean). With Livestreamer and VLC you could try to sync the English Twich stream with it but that's a pain, I usually don't bother.
But yeah this sucks. If Tastosis are that expensive (if that is what's causing this considering they do this just for the English stream) than I'm sorry; They might want to reconsider their salaries.
especially these days, where i seem to be getting more and more annoyed at tasteless 'casting'.. if you can call it that.. imo his voice is really unpleasant and he seems to be at a loss for words more often than not.. yes, he's done great things for starcarft&esports in general blablabla.. i get that, but the quality of casting i get in proleague or ssl is just so much higher every way i look at it.. so now gom tells me i can't see the details of what's happening anymore and i don't wanna listen to the guy who's supposed to tell me what's happening.. if gom hires someone else instead i will consider watching again..
i'll be reading the results on liquipedia, at least there i can see the numbers clearly..
Yes, agree on tasteless. So much off-topic, so little starcraft from him. Really decreases the experience for me. I watched the VODS of the GSL finals Life vs Parting, and tasteless (and artosis ofc) were actually excited about the game and talked about it all the times, and it was great commentary! So he still can when he feels like. Then I went back and watched one of the quarterfinals from the same tournament, and tasteless didn't care the slightest and the observer was following all the tech-switches and close-call scouting (and I guess mind games? dont know) in early-mid game while tasteless was talking about something completely unrelated. :/
I feel I have been complaining about him a lot recently (sorry) and I feel a bit like a hater for all the negative posts, but as there is a fair chance that GOM people will read this thread, I think this is a good opportunity to deliver some feedback. I'll stop now though, this is enough.
well, with the SSL and proleague around the corner... I don't feel so much about this...ah well.
By the way, for me it is not about the money - I simply do not have time to watch GSL or SSL all the time / catch up on all the vods, so a subscription does not make sense for me. I just watch it occasionally and I am not going to spend money on it then!
I wonder what salary Artosis and Tastless gets. I think I rather have two foreigners just talk over the korean stream (like Nathanias did way back with Proleague). In that way we get good quality and decent casting. Now it's horrible quality and bad casting.
On June 10 2015 16:35 graNite wrote: the biggest joke is how they want to get paid for the english stream but koreans get free hd. is this the racism khaldor was talking about?
Considering they have to compete with LoL I guess they just can't afford to put SC2 behind a paywall in Korea, but tbh I won't support this re-reverting to further milk western audiences while they sit in the studio and feast on pizza we've most likely paid for.
Well fuck them! I wont pay ant wont watch.If they want to destroy themselves,fine by me. I barely have the money to pay for internet,not gonna pay for this. LoL,Dota,CS etc. all free,no wonder SC2 is in trouble.
On June 10 2015 16:35 graNite wrote: the biggest joke is how they want to get paid for the english stream but koreans get free hd. is this the racism khaldor was talking about?
Considering they have to compete with LoL I guess they just can't afford to put SC2 behind a paywall in Korea, but tbh I won't support this re-reverting to further milk western audiences while they sit in the studio and feast on pizza we've most likely paid for.
Really sad, this only hurts SC2 further.
That's SSL if you're talking about free pizzas
Nah at least a few years back GSL offered free pizza as well. Guess times change
On June 10 2015 17:00 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: I wonder what salary Artosis and Tastless gets. I think I rather have two foreigners just talk over the korean stream (like Nathanias did way back with Proleague). In that way we get good quality and decent casting. Now it's horrible quality and bad casting.
Are you fucking kidding me.... really... you think that by forcing people do buy better quality in a sea of free high quality content is a better move. Hmmm lets put up a list of all the other streamers I watch when I can't stand to watch on twitch. Nathanias, FilterSC, Rotterdam, etc. There is about 10 other I can watch or maybe I could be sleeping instead. I was really happy to see it go to medium. I could at least see what was on the screen and follow the action. So, I would occasionally stay up till 4am to watch the best SC2 tournament in the world in terms of players. But, now it's not even worth it.
On June 10 2015 16:45 Cascade wrote: I feel it's fair. If you don't pay, why do people feel so entitled to HQ stream? >_>
Because others provide HQ for free? You get ads on both whether it's GSL low quality or others' high quality.
They fail at monetizing properly their viewers without a paywall. I don't like ads, but if you can watch tournaments with high quality for free, that means it's doable...
Now that there's also the NSSL and proleague, the GSL has a hard time to evolve and adapt it seems... They're not the only prestigious SC2 tournament in korea now.
On June 10 2015 16:45 Cascade wrote: I feel it's fair. If you don't pay, why do people feel so entitled to HQ stream? >_>
I dunno, maybe because GSL is the only tournament of all SC2 and even (correct me if I'm wrong) CS:GO/LoL/DotA/HS tournaments to not have a HQ stream for free? Industry standards are industry standards for a reason. What would people say if a service like iTunes would only allow you to download music in mp3 32 kbps unless you paid an extra 1$ per song? Would you say then "why do people feel so entitled to decent quality music files? >_>" ?
They try their best to earn money of their product, and they seem to think that they will earn more from the paying viewers than they will lose on advertisement from the leaving non-paying viewers. With ad-block and all, I really don't think a free viewer is worth much more than what they pay for the bandwidth. I think a paying viewer is worth a lot of free viewers at least, especially if you subtract the bandwidth costs, so even if they lose 100 free viewers for every new subscriber, I think they will gain from the switch.
If they are not making enough profits with free medium, then either they are wanting way too much profits, or there's something seriously wrong about their business model. Again, they are the only ones doing that.
"But all the other tournaments are free!" Yeah, maybe they don't have the attraction to get many paying viewers. As a few posters have said, GSL is the most prestigious tournament (or so many think), so many people are ready to pay to see it, even with other "lesser" tournaments available for free. Which is why this move is an option for GSL, but probably not viable for any other tournament, as very few would actually pay for it. It's not a matter of the other tournaments being nice and passionate about SC2, it's just not a good move for them to shut out free views.
Fair enough, but prestige and brand image are not infinite. If they keep on like this, will come a time when GSL will not be seen as the most prestigious SC2 tournament, but as the shitty tournament with crap quality while SSL will be all hype. They maybe gain financially from losing 100 free viewers for every new subscriber, but they certainly don't gain in prestige and image.
On June 10 2015 17:00 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: I wonder what salary Artosis and Tastless gets. I think I rather have two foreigners just talk over the korean stream (like Nathanias did way back with Proleague). In that way we get good quality and decent casting. Now it's horrible quality and bad casting.
Great bait mate.
He's right though. I love Tastosis but they give zero fucks any more
If you like the product of a company , support it. If you expect free high quality products you are just a beggar and no business model is designed for you. No matter the industry, people working somewhere have to make enough to make a living , bring profit to their owner or their job would not exist . If you are in a stage in your life where you can not afford to support the things that you love, it's ok , we have all been there, that still does not give you the right to demand something . Appreciate the things made from passion by someone else and understand that even Teamliquid , Basetrade, GSL exist because of the people that can support it with money not with demands for something in exchange for nothing.
I think the only reason for the GSL twitch english channel is the foreign audience , which is not their main target nor their main source of income. So they could continue without it. So if you like Tastosis, wolf and you want them to continue support GSL if you can .
On June 10 2015 16:45 Cascade wrote: I feel it's fair. If you don't pay, why do people feel so entitled to HQ stream? >_> .
Because we're in 2015.
2015 is the year of companies not trying to earn money? 2015 is the year where you complain on the quality of products you get for free?
it's a sample! Meant to make you want to subscribe! You are not a customer, you are a potential customer consuming free samples. Like those free little shampoo-samples you get! Do you complain that there is not enough shampoo in the shampoo samples because you can only wash your hair 2 times with it, not 3 as you could last year?
Yeah, they get a tiny profit from the ads (unless you use ad-block, that the majority of us do I assume), but that won't be many cents per viewer.
Never seen so many people declaring against watching GSL altogether.
I've been expecting this ever since the SSL came out with almost exact same maps, same format, same timeslot and similar player pool. Why watch the same thing for the second time in way inferior visual quality? Same reason I myself dont watch WCS EU/NA but stayed the whole night watching MLG few years ago.
This was not the case with the dual leagues setup in BW back then. We only have Blizzard to blame for their league management.
On June 10 2015 17:00 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: I wonder what salary Artosis and Tastless gets. I think I rather have two foreigners just talk over the korean stream (like Nathanias did way back with Proleague). In that way we get good quality and decent casting. Now it's horrible quality and bad casting.
Great bait mate.
He's right though. I love Tastosis but they give zero fucks any more
Agreed, the GSL is more like a Tastosis talk show now with a game playing in the background they comment on from time to time.
On June 10 2015 17:00 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: I wonder what salary Artosis and Tastless gets. I think I rather have two foreigners just talk over the korean stream (like Nathanias did way back with Proleague). In that way we get good quality and decent casting. Now it's horrible quality and bad casting.
Great bait mate.
Bait? I don't think that they are providing good commentary, it's just unprofessional goofiness all the time with no of interest in the game.
Imho, I can only hope that this is a good decision. It's hard to see the actual financial situation of GOM, so I can't claim whether this is an act of desperation or cunning and arrogant display of entrepreneurship. However, usually every legitimate corporations acts desperate because they are truly desperate. They don't use cheap tricks to cash in unless they are very confident with their customer loyalty (ie youtube and maybe apple). Desperate times call for desperate and panicky measures. If you truly want GSL to continue on with its great production, you should try to pity them and help them.
On June 10 2015 17:00 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: I wonder what salary Artosis and Tastless gets. I think I rather have two foreigners just talk over the korean stream (like Nathanias did way back with Proleague). In that way we get good quality and decent casting. Now it's horrible quality and bad casting.
Great bait mate.
Bait? I don't think that they are providing good commentary, it's just unprofessional goofiness all the time with no of interest in the game.
A lot of people, including me, like their commentary but if it means that the free stream is in low quality it's not worth it, in my opinion.
"But all the other tournaments are free!" Yeah, maybe they don't have the attraction to get many paying viewers. As a few posters have said, GSL is the most prestigious tournament (or so many think), so many people are ready to pay to see it, even with other "lesser" tournaments available for free. Which is why this move is an option for GSL, but probably not viable for any other tournament, as very few would actually pay for it. It's not a matter of the other tournaments being nice and passionate about SC2, it's just not a good move for them to shut out free views.
Fair enough, but prestige and brand image are not infinite. If they keep on like this, will come a time when GSL will not be seen as the most prestigious SC2 tournament, but as the shitty tournament with crap quality while SSL will be all hype. They maybe gain financially from losing 100 free viewers for every new subscriber, but they certainly don't gain in prestige and image.
Yeah, I can't judge myself if it is a good business move. It could be as you say that it is a profitable move short term, but not long term. Maybe it's a "ded gaem" move, trying to cash out as much as possible on their prestige before they inevitably go down? :o Oh, the conspiracy theories...
Anyway, I just got a bit annoyed at all the people that behaved as if they had a say in it, as if they were paying customers that didn't get the product they paid for. Sorry.
On June 10 2015 17:15 Noonius wrote: hahaaaaaa, GOM is a joke. Blizzard needs to go a pair and start forcing some fucking rules. Koreans ain't special.
Apparently gomexp is the only one able to still give more WCS points with low resolution stream than a tier 1 event.
On June 10 2015 17:13 swissman777 wrote: Imho, I can only hope that this is a good decision. It's hard to see the actual financial situation of GOM, so I can't claim whether this is an act of desperation or cunning and arrogant display of entrepreneurship. However, usually every legitimate corporations acts desperate because they are truly desperate. They don't use cheap tricks to cash in unless they are very confident with their customer loyalty (ie youtube and maybe apple). Desperate times call for desperate and panicky measures. If you truly want GSL to continue on with its great production, you should try to pity them and help them.
Or like in the real world let competition decide on who get's to stay and who doesn't. GSL has been very prestigous up to this point, but whoever offers the better product (in this case best quality for smallest investment, which clearly isn't GOM right now) gets the majority of viewership in that department.
"But all the other tournaments are free!" Yeah, maybe they don't have the attraction to get many paying viewers. As a few posters have said, GSL is the most prestigious tournament (or so many think), so many people are ready to pay to see it, even with other "lesser" tournaments available for free. Which is why this move is an option for GSL, but probably not viable for any other tournament, as very few would actually pay for it. It's not a matter of the other tournaments being nice and passionate about SC2, it's just not a good move for them to shut out free views.
Fair enough, but prestige and brand image are not infinite. If they keep on like this, will come a time when GSL will not be seen as the most prestigious SC2 tournament, but as the shitty tournament with crap quality while SSL will be all hype. They maybe gain financially from losing 100 free viewers for every new subscriber, but they certainly don't gain in prestige and image.
Yeah, I can't judge myself if it is a good business move. It could be as you say that it is a profitable move short term, but not long term. Maybe it's a "ded gaem" move, trying to cash out as much as possible on their prestige before they inevitably go down? :o Oh, the conspiracy theories...
Anyway, I just got a bit annoyed at all the people that behaved as if they had a say in it, as if they were paying customers that didn't get the product they paid for. Sorry.
One of the only subscriptions I own is to GSL. given the amount of content I watch it's a good bargain. This change won't impact me. However it is troubling, what does this say about the state of GOM? Furthermore I know a lot of students/low income situations watch the GSL every day and this must be a real pain when a subscription is a luxury they can't afford.
On June 10 2015 16:45 Cascade wrote: I feel it's fair. If you don't pay, why do people feel so entitled to HQ stream? >_> .
Because we're in 2015.
2015 is the year of companies not trying to earn money? 2015 is the year where you complain on the quality of products you get for free?
it's a sample! Meant to make you want to subscribe! You are not a customer, you are a potential customer consuming free samples. Like those free little shampoo-samples you get! Do you complain that there is not enough shampoo in the shampoo samples because you can only wash your hair 2 times with it, not 3 as you could last year?
Yeah, they get a tiny profit from the ads (unless you use ad-block, that the majority of us do I assume), but that won't be many cents per viewer.
Its the year people aren't bothered anymore to watch non HD content. Honestly at this point, I'd rather see them turn full PPV.
On June 10 2015 15:56 Nezgar wrote: I've been very disappointed with Tastosis for a while now, lowering the stream quality back to low again will probably seal the deal for me. It's just a string of very very poor developments in recent times when it comes to the GSL: -VoD system gone -Code A gone -Tastosis in a passion slump -a lot of problems with laggy/stuttering streams -low quality
I really can't think of any reason why I should pay for the GSL at the moment. S3SL and SPL are both more entertaining and have a better production quality. But instead of taking this as an opportunity to win back the hearts of the fans GOM decides to slam the door shut. Whatever, I don't even care at this point anymore.
Oh, and this is coming from someone who used to pay for GSL for quite a while...
I agree more or less with the whole point. I ussually don't tune for live streams, so VODs are a must and when I do - I don't bother with LQ GSL, while I do watch SSL and PL.
On June 10 2015 16:45 Cascade wrote: I feel it's fair. If you don't pay, why do people feel so entitled to HQ stream? >_> .
Because we're in 2015.
2015 is the year of companies not trying to earn money? 2015 is the year where you complain on the quality of products you get for free?
it's a sample! Meant to make you want to subscribe! You are not a customer, you are a potential customer consuming free samples. Like those free little shampoo-samples you get! Do you complain that there is not enough shampoo in the shampoo samples because you can only wash your hair 2 times with it, not 3 as you could last year?
Yeah, they get a tiny profit from the ads (unless you use ad-block, that the majority of us do I assume), but that won't be many cents per viewer.
The thing is literally everyone provides high quality for free except for GSL. So yeah, I'd say it's normal that people feel entitled to have hq.
On June 10 2015 17:00 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: I wonder what salary Artosis and Tastless gets. I think I rather have two foreigners just talk over the korean stream (like Nathanias did way back with Proleague). In that way we get good quality and decent casting. Now it's horrible quality and bad casting.
Great bait mate.
Bait? I don't think that they are providing good commentary, it's just unprofessional goofiness all the time with no of interest in the game.
Everyone has his own taste in casting, so I can't argue for everyone, but I'll argue for myelf.
The tastosis duo imo is great for precisely their unique sense of humour and attitude towards casting. It's not necessarily funny, but casual and funny enough that I never get bored. Each match they cast feels unique. This gives the VODs great replay value. I don't tend to watch proleague and SSL in eng nowadays unless live because Wolf/Moonglades/Valdes combo fail to bring in hype as much as the Korean Casters (I understand Korean) or keep me entertained throughout the video like Tastosis.
Tastosis may be cheesy and weird, but it's way better than Valdes, for example, who states the obvious and repeats "Huge" so much that listening to him feels mundane and grey. Wolf,Moonglade and Valdes cast, but as a result, every VOD feels the same with different results. They may throw in some occasional jokes here and there, but in vain compared to the sheer amount and variation that Tastosis duo puts in to entertain the audience when nothing is happening. Even the Korean way to casting feels the same after a while.
Also, you can't just hire any foreigner and expect it to go well. Any other established casters like Nathanias would probably reject any offer GOM gives to him that is cheaper than what it pays tastosis. Remember, if you want your employees to produce high quality work, you have to give enough incentive.
While I might sound biased, being Korean and getting free HD quality and vods, I think this move is inevitable. While people say GSL is the most prestigious tournament in SC2, thats a thing of the past. Right now, even in the so called better production, better everything S3SL or Proleague, the korean viewership on Youtube and Naver totals just around 4~5000 viewers each, not all of them Korean, or at least that's the average viewer number I've seen so far (If I'm wrong, please correct me). On twitch, it averages around 10,000 viewers and 15000 to 20000 in the finals or important matches. Korean viewership is really not at an all high level despite the current dip in popularity LOL has at the moment. GOMTV needs the money, and I firmly believe that instead of crapping about why its always low quality, its a bad business model, stuff that is obvious etc we should at least pity the once greatest SC2 tournament of all time hands down and try to support it in its time of crisis. Sure, I also dislike that there is a paywall for above MEDIUM quality, I also dislike the really awful casting Tasteosis has been showing recently. It will put off people who don't have the inclination or ability to monthly pay the amount needed. But no-one can deny that GSL has been the longest lasting, and the most loyal and epic tournament SC2 has had in its lifespan. Its had memorable moments and glorious experiences that no other tournament has and ever will. Lets try to save GSL one step at a time, and then after all the dust has cleared, we can start to make the steps necessary to ensure free HD quality, free vods and overall refurbishment of the tournament. We won't be able to complain about the GSL if it ceases to exist, and the prospect of perhaps NEVER being able to watch GSL again saddens me to no end. Trust me, If Korean vods and HD quality was behind a paywall, I would be thrusting my wallet towards them. People who can pay, lets pay instead of saying they should change for us, that their model is wrong. We know its wrong, so lets try to support them to the point where they can do things right. Hopefully no-one bashes this post. I am in no way saying that putting a steep paywall is right. I am merely trying to say lets support GOM if they're in a shitty spot. That's what passionate fans do, right?
On June 10 2015 16:45 Cascade wrote: I feel it's fair. If you don't pay, why do people feel so entitled to HQ stream? >_> .
Because we're in 2015.
2015 is the year of companies not trying to earn money? 2015 is the year where you complain on the quality of products you get for free?
it's a sample! Meant to make you want to subscribe! You are not a customer, you are a potential customer consuming free samples. Like those free little shampoo-samples you get! Do you complain that there is not enough shampoo in the shampoo samples because you can only wash your hair 2 times with it, not 3 as you could last year?
Yeah, they get a tiny profit from the ads (unless you use ad-block, that the majority of us do I assume), but that won't be many cents per viewer.
The thing is literally everyone provides high quality for free except for GSL. So yeah, I'd say it's normal that people feel entitled to have hq.
"But all the other tournaments are free!" Yeah, maybe they don't have the attraction to get many paying viewers. As a few posters have said, GSL is the most prestigious tournament (or so many think), so many people are ready to pay to see it, even with other "lesser" tournaments available for free. Which is why this move is an option for GSL, but probably not viable for any other tournament, as very few would actually pay for it. It's not a matter of the other tournaments being nice and passionate about SC2, it's just not a good move for them to shut out free views.
Fair enough, but prestige and brand image are not infinite. If they keep on like this, will come a time when GSL will not be seen as the most prestigious SC2 tournament, but as the shitty tournament with crap quality while SSL will be all hype. They maybe gain financially from losing 100 free viewers for every new subscriber, but they certainly don't gain in prestige and image.
Yeah, I can't judge myself if it is a good business move. It could be as you say that it is a profitable move short term, but not long term. Maybe it's a "ded gaem" move, trying to cash out as much as possible on their prestige before they inevitably go down? :o Oh, the conspiracy theories...
Anyway, I just got a bit annoyed at all the people that behaved as if they had a say in it, as if they were paying customers that didn't get the product they paid for. Sorry.
There is one thing that should rub you the wrong way at least a little bit I think: They went out of their way to stop the English viewer base to even watch the Korean YT stream (which is easily circumvented but that's not the point). That's really pushing it.
On June 10 2015 17:07 baiesradu wrote: If you like the product of a company , support it. If you expect free high quality products you are just a beggar and no business model is designed for you. No matter the industry, people working somewhere have to make enough to make a living , bring profit to their owner or their job would not exist . If you are in a stage in your life where you can not afford to support the things that you love, it's ok , we have all been there, that still does not give you the right to demand something . Appreciate the things made from passion by someone else and understand that even Teamliquid , Basetrade, GSL exist because of the people that can support it with money not with demands for something in exchange for nothing.
I think the only reason for the GSL twitch english channel is the foreign audience , which is not their main target nor their main source of income. So they could continue without it. So if you like Tastosis, wolf and you want them to continue support GSL if you can .
At least that is my opinion ..
generally people support sporting events by watching them. You can never spend a dime on the NFL but as long as youre watching it on tv and contributing to their tv ratings that is most important. GSL does not (or at least should not) depend on money from people in other countries to sustain themselves. That is a pretty terrible business model. They SHOULD be getting most of their financial support from sponsors and investors (who want ROI via viewers, which GOM is discouraging by reverting back to shit quality streams). Getting subscribers is just extra money they rake in to provide whatever services or do with as they please. I feel like the difference between providing low and medium quality isn't significant and just feels like more of a cash grab than an actual financial problem but whatever.
On June 10 2015 17:35 Orlok wrote: While I might sound biased, being Korean and getting free HD quality and vods, I think this move is inevitable. While people say GSL is the most prestigious tournament in SC2, thats a thing of the past. Right now, even in the so called better production, better everything S3SL or Proleague, the korean viewership on Youtube and Naver totals just around 4~5000 viewers each, not all of them Korean, or at least that's the average viewer number I've seen so far (If I'm wrong, please correct me). On twitch, it averages around 10,000 viewers and 15000 to 20000 in the finals or important matches. Korean viewership is really not at an all high level despite the current dip in popularity LOL has at the moment. GOMTV needs the money, and I firmly believe that instead of crapping about why its always low quality, its a bad business model, stuff that is obvious etc we should at least pity the once greatest SC2 tournament of all time hands down and try to support it in its time of crisis. Sure, I also dislike that there is a paywall for above MEDIUM quality, I also dislike the really awful casting Tasteosis has been showing recently. It will put off people who don't have the inclination or ability to monthly pay the amount needed. But no-one can deny that GSL has been the longest lasting, and the most loyal and epic tournament SC2 has had in its lifespan. Its had memorable moments and glorious experiences that no other tournament has and ever will. Lets try to save GSL one step at a time, and then after all the dust has cleared, we can start to make the steps necessary to ensure free HD quality, free vods and overall refurbishment of the tournament. We won't be able to complain about the GSL if it ceases to exist, and the prospect of perhaps NEVER being able to watch GSL again saddens me to no end. Trust me, If Korean vods and HD quality was behind a paywall, I would be thrusting my wallet towards them. People who can pay, lets pay instead of saying they should change for us, that their model is wrong. We know its wrong, so lets try to support them to the point where they can do things right. Hopefully no-one bashes this post. I am in no way saying that putting a steep paywall is right. I am merely trying to say lets support GOM if they're in a shitty spot. That's what passionate fans do, right?
do you think racism could also be a problem? (see + Show Spoiler +
Weird that all other e-sports can provice excellent quality streams, but GSL have to charge for it.... well guess I wont be watching GSL again, dont mind to much anyway
You know what GOM? You can bring back WoL GSL S1 quality of stream, but you cant bring back all those names, hype and diversity of a game styles. This game is not so interesting to watch it at low quality. Goodbye, your BW league died fast, now your sc2 league will die with the same rate. Hello, SPOTV, our new king!
On June 10 2015 17:35 Orlok wrote: Hopefully no-one bashes this post. I am in no way saying that putting a steep paywall is right. I am merely trying to say lets support GOM if they're in a shitty spot. That's what passionate fans do, right?
If youre so passinate and cute: go and buy a ticket for a twitch, dont try to act like "wow if I would not be korean then I would definetly subscribe". Just go and do it, stop talking us what we should do when youre not doing the same thing.
Goodbye GSL then. I won't watch crappy streamquality, and I don't pay when I get FORCED to, because that is what happens here.
Tastosis alone would be worth paying. But since its PvPvPvZ again, I won't pay, I have seen enough of that.
I hope they will start casting another league soon, or the 2 casters that got me into SC2, as well as the League (GSL) will get me out of it again, since PL and GSL were the last things I was was enjoying when it came to SC2.
Since PL doesn't have the "mind mind mind" song in the middle anymore, and the passionate and wise casters got replaced by an entertaining hair-commenter that doesn't understand the game, PL lost it's charm. And now GSL.
On June 10 2015 16:00 shabby wrote: Really don't mind this change. Always been paying for GSL, and will keep supporting. A few dollars a month to have 2 great tournaments instead of 1 is worth it imo.
I wouldn't mind it, I paid for many seasons until it was only PvPvPvP. Even though I could watch it on "High" and Live. But I DO mind, if I get forced to pay. And that is what is basically happening here. I dunno what Streaming in mid/high quality costs them or how it costs more, bot it sounds like an extremely foul excuse
On June 10 2015 17:13 swissman777 wrote: Imho, I can only hope that this is a good decision. It's hard to see the actual financial situation of GOM, so I can't claim whether this is an act of desperation or cunning and arrogant display of entrepreneurship. However, usually every legitimate corporations acts desperate because they are truly desperate. They don't use cheap tricks to cash in unless they are very confident with their customer loyalty (ie youtube and maybe apple). Desperate times call for desperate and panicky measures. If you truly want GSL to continue on with its great production, you should try to pity them and help them.
Or like in the real world let competition decide on who get's to stay and who doesn't. GSL has been very prestigous up to this point, but whoever offers the better product (in this case best quality for smallest investment, which clearly isn't GOM right now) gets the majority of viewership in that department.
Or pay where the quality is due. If you like SSL more, then sure, let the competition rule out the winner. However, no one should be frugal and expect good quality. If GSL can't continue with the support it has, do you think that SSL can? SSL may be offering more in terms of higher free resolution stream, but how long could it last before SSL runs out of their initial revenue made to attract customers like it is for every new entreprises?
Moreover, you must also know that once GSL goes out, a monopoly both in individual and team leagues is a terrible news for us. Spotv would then have the freedom to do whatever it pleases to a large extent.
On June 10 2015 17:41 Rollora wrote: Goodbye GSL then. I won't watch crappy streamquality, and I don't pay when I get FORCED to, because that is what happens here.
Tastosis alone would be worth paying. But since its PvPvPvZ again, I won't pay, I have seen enough of that.
I hope they will start casting another league soon, or the 2 casters that got me into SC2, as well as the League (GSL) will get me out of it again, since PL and GSL were the last things I was was enjoying when it came to SC2.
Since PL doesn't have the "mind mind mind" song in the middle anymore, and the passionate and wise casters got replaced by an entertaining hair-commenter that doesn't understand the game, PL lost it's charm. And now GSL.
On June 10 2015 16:00 shabby wrote: Really don't mind this change. Always been paying for GSL, and will keep supporting. A few dollars a month to have 2 great tournaments instead of 1 is worth it imo.
I wouldn't mind it, I paid for many seasons until it was only PvPvPvP. Even though I could watch it on "High" and Live. But I DO mind, if I get forced to pay. And that is what is basically happening here. I dunno what Streaming in mid/high quality costs them or how it costs more, bot it sounds like an extremely foul excuse
Yeah, better Tasteless who hasn't played a starcraft game in the last 5 years or Artosis who plays hearthstone than moonglade who is a former sc2 progamer and korean GM now.
Kind of crazy when I can watch other tournaments on Azubu with the same players for free in source. Even on twitch you can get alot of the same matchups on high for free.
I'm not even sure why this is such a big issue honestly. Perhaps it speaks about the maturity level of the community that people complain about paying 5$ a month for a service as they would any other service in the world.
At least understand that people need to be compensated for work, even if you dislike GOM.
On June 10 2015 15:58 doihy wrote: Why are people disappointed in GSL for doing this? If viewership wasn't so low they wouldn't have to do this. And the reason viewership is so low because of blizzard's design. If anything it is blizzards fault for making GSL do this. Sometimes it feels that people who watch GSL only watch because they are fan of Starcraft- not as an esport. But if you took away the starcraft name and look at the gameplay itself even less viewers would be watching.
Its 2015 here where I am. And it has already proven that good content and free content actually raises the viewernumbers that pay for content. Like all those "pirates", pirating games and movies. And since that scene is so big, you know what? Legal streaming booms, torrent streaming goes back a bit, netflix and other services rise, and movies in cinema are more successful then ever before, the box office results of the most successful movies of all times show: the most successful ones were made in the years where Internet piracy was already on the rise. you can clearly see, this has an advertising effect, not a "stealing" one
On June 10 2015 17:43 Alucen-Will- wrote: I'm not even sure why this is such a big issue honestly. Perhaps it speaks about the maturity level of the community that people complain about paying 5$ a month for a service as they would any other service in the world.
At least understand that people need to be compensated for work, even if you dislike GOM.
So you are saying that the other tournaments runners aren't making money because they offer high quality for free. Ok. Then everyone is stupid and only GSL found the ultimate way to make big money off of tournaments.
On June 10 2015 17:35 Orlok wrote: While I might sound biased, being Korean and getting free HD quality and vods, I think this move is inevitable. While people say GSL is the most prestigious tournament in SC2, thats a thing of the past. Right now, even in the so called better production, better everything S3SL or Proleague, the korean viewership on Youtube and Naver totals just around 4~5000 viewers each, not all of them Korean, or at least that's the average viewer number I've seen so far (If I'm wrong, please correct me). On twitch, it averages around 10,000 viewers and 15000 to 20000 in the finals or important matches. Korean viewership is really not at an all high level despite the current dip in popularity LOL has at the moment. GOMTV needs the money, and I firmly believe that instead of crapping about why its always low quality, its a bad business model, stuff that is obvious etc we should at least pity the once greatest SC2 tournament of all time hands down and try to support it in its time of crisis. Sure, I also dislike that there is a paywall for above MEDIUM quality, I also dislike the really awful casting Tasteosis has been showing recently. It will put off people who don't have the inclination or ability to monthly pay the amount needed. But no-one can deny that GSL has been the longest lasting, and the most loyal and epic tournament SC2 has had in its lifespan. Its had memorable moments and glorious experiences that no other tournament has and ever will. Lets try to save GSL one step at a time, and then after all the dust has cleared, we can start to make the steps necessary to ensure free HD quality, free vods and overall refurbishment of the tournament. We won't be able to complain about the GSL if it ceases to exist, and the prospect of perhaps NEVER being able to watch GSL again saddens me to no end. Trust me, If Korean vods and HD quality was behind a paywall, I would be thrusting my wallet towards them. People who can pay, lets pay instead of saying they should change for us, that their model is wrong. We know its wrong, so lets try to support them to the point where they can do things right. Hopefully no-one bashes this post. I am in no way saying that putting a steep paywall is right. I am merely trying to say lets support GOM if they're in a shitty spot. That's what passionate fans do, right?
do you think racism could also be a problem? (see + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQk4QDjnNPA
)
Last time I checked, Koreans aren't racist against Caucasians(White people).
I'm pretty sure that racism has EXTREMELY little to do with the paywall. I can't deny that there is racism in Korea that is harsher than in some other countries, but GOM's financial troubles aren't targeting their hate for foreigners and forcing them to pay. Its safe to say that they are just in a really god-awful financial spot, and really have no choice but to reinstall the no quality but low paywall, or that they are lying and trying to squeeze out any money they can get. Out of the two, I think the former is more likely than the latter.
Let's make the free stream unwatchable and the KR streams/vods unavailable from outside korea! That'll make more people watch GSL compared to S2SL, right?
Man, I feel really sorry for the GSL and what they seem to be forced to do and can't help but feel it goes back to when Blizzard forced the Twitch partnership down their throat, ever since its been downhill.
The SC2 community really amazes me at times like these. For most of SC2's young life span, GSL was "The" league to follow and was immensely entertaining. But because of this, people are willing to let and even hoped GOM would die when they've done more than most entities out there so far. I always knew toxicity was part of most communities but some of the responses in this thread really takes it to a new level. GOM doesn't owe us anything and is it really THAT expensive to pay $8/month when you probably spent more on shit you don't even need?
On June 10 2015 17:43 Alucen-Will- wrote: I'm not even sure why this is such a big issue honestly. Perhaps it speaks about the maturity level of the community that people complain about paying 5$ a month for a service as they would any other service in the world.
At least understand that people need to be compensated for work, even if you dislike GOM.
So you are saying that the other tournaments runners aren't making money because they offer high quality for free. Ok. Then everyone is stupid and only GSL found the ultimate way to make big money off of tournaments.
On June 10 2015 17:43 Alucen-Will- wrote: I'm not even sure why this is such a big issue honestly. Perhaps it speaks about the maturity level of the community that people complain about paying 5$ a month for a service as they would any other service in the world.
At least understand that people need to be compensated for work, even if you dislike GOM.
So you are saying that the other tournaments runners aren't making money because they offer high quality for free. Ok. Then everyone is stupid and only GSL found the ultimate way to make big money off of tournaments.
If GSL goes out, then SSL can do exact same as GSL or worse. That's monopoly for you.
On June 10 2015 17:43 Alucen-Will- wrote: I'm not even sure why this is such a big issue honestly. Perhaps it speaks about the maturity level of the community that people complain about paying 5$ a month for a service as they would any other service in the world.
At least understand that people need to be compensated for work, even if you dislike GOM.
that's why you don't adblock their shitty ads in the middle of actual games.
On June 10 2015 17:35 Orlok wrote: On twitch, it averages around 10,000 viewers and 15000 to 20000 in the finals or important matches. Korean viewership is really not at an all high level despite the current dip in popularity LOL has at the moment. GOMTV needs the money, and I firmly believe that instead of crapping about why its always low quality, its a bad business model, stuff that is obvious etc we should at least pity the once greatest SC2 tournament of all time hands down and try to support it in its time of crisis. Sure, I also dislike that there is a paywall for above MEDIUM quality, I also dislike the really awful casting Tasteosis has been showing recently. It will put off people who don't have the inclination or ability to monthly pay the amount needed. But no-one can deny that GSL has been the longest lasting, and the most loyal and epic tournament SC2 has had in its lifespan. Its had memorable moments and glorious experiences that no other tournament has and ever will. Lets try to save GSL one step at a time, and then after all the dust has cleared, we can start to make the steps necessary to ensure free HD quality, free vods and overall refurbishment of the tournament. We won't be able to complain about the GSL if it ceases to exist, and the prospect of perhaps NEVER being able to watch GSL again saddens me to no end. Trust me, If Korean vods and HD quality was behind a paywall, I would be thrusting my wallet towards them. People who can pay, lets pay instead of saying they should change for us, that their model is wrong. We know its wrong, so lets try to support them to the point where they can do things right. Hopefully no-one bashes this post. I am in no way saying that putting a steep paywall is right. I am merely trying to say lets support GOM if they're in a shitty spot. That's what passionate fans do, right?
I think Blizzard needs to help out here in order to increase viewership. What you are suggesting is nice, but it's treating the symptoms, not the cause.
I do hope Blizzard finally comes to their senses and makes SC2 multiplayer F2P (only charge for the SP part). That, and pull LOTV back just a bit from gimmicky MOBA casters to an actual RTS with fun units.
On June 10 2015 17:47 Destructicon wrote: Man, I feel really sorry for the GSL and what they seem to be forced to do and can't help but feel it goes back to when Blizzard forced the Twitch partnership down their throat, ever since its been downhill.
Exactly this. People are quick to point fingers at GSL being greedy, but after all, it's a company that was forced to abandon it's properly working system for Twitch.TV and all the flaws with it (terrible, loud, repetitive adds, stuttering, twitch chat) probably costing them in revenue. Afterwards, they were sort of abandoned with a poorly working system... At least SSL can stream on Azubu, which has higher quality, less stutter etc.
On June 10 2015 17:43 Alucen-Will- wrote: I'm not even sure why this is such a big issue honestly. Perhaps it speaks about the maturity level of the community that people complain about paying 5$ a month for a service as they would any other service in the world.
At least understand that people need to be compensated for work, even if you dislike GOM.
So you are saying that the other tournaments runners aren't making money because they offer high quality for free. Ok. Then everyone is stupid and only GSL found the ultimate way to make big money off of tournaments.
Considering that most tournaments run based off exposure and the revenue from sponsors, yes. Because Sc2 has lower viewership these days in all tournaments, fewer TO's are willing to hosts the game. GOM is just acknowledging this fact and must take this measure in order to cut losses. WCS is financially backed by blizzard and SPOTV is a Korean TV station who can afford to lose some money on an english broadcast.
I wonder if GSL will follow a pattern of offering Ro.16 & Ro.32 in free medium quality but when it reaches the important rounds they only offer low. That actually sounds like a reasonable model. I can't really put into words why but it feels like a fair approach.
On June 10 2015 17:51 xdevilx2 wrote: If they struggle with money then I doubt that the few extra subs that they will get help. I mean thats maybe 200$ more?
On June 10 2015 17:48 iGX wrote: The SC2 community really amazes me at times like these. For most of SC2's young life span, GSL was "The" league to follow and was immensely entertaining. But because of this, people are willing to let and even hoped GOM would die when they've done more than most entities out there so far. I always knew toxicity was part of most communities but some of the responses in this thread really takes it to a new level. GOM doesn't owe us anything and is it really THAT expensive to pay $8/month when you probably spent more on shit you don't even need?
If they don't want us to watch, why watch? I'm glad they did what they did but now they seem to have given up. When they were the sole provider of KR starcraft, it was okay. Now we have S2SL, SPL, Kespa cup, WCS, IEM and DH providing similar or better content, with S2SL and SPL being the flagships of superb KR starcraft.
On June 10 2015 17:51 KelsierSC wrote: I wonder if GSL will follow a pattern of offering Ro.16 & Ro.32 in free medium quality but when it reaches the important rounds they only offer low. That actually sounds like a reasonable model. I can't really put into words why but it feels like a fair approach.
Don't know why it reminded me a "shady" guy offering you free try of his "good stuff" so you can then buy it when the proper time comes But yeah, it sounds good to me too.
On June 10 2015 17:47 Destructicon wrote: Man, I feel really sorry for the GSL and what they seem to be forced to do and can't help but feel it goes back to when Blizzard forced the Twitch partnership down their throat, ever since its been downhill.
Exactly this. People are quick to point fingers at GSL being greedy, but after all, it's a company that was forced to abandon it's properly working system for Twitch.TV and all the flaws with it (terrible, loud, repetitive adds, stuttering, twitch chat) probably costing them in revenue. Afterwards, they were sort of abandoned with a poorly working system... At least SSL can stream on Azubu, which has higher quality, less stutter etc.
I just made them up. I mean how much money would they get? They probably have a special deal with twitch so that the revenue for subs is better. But now that they change back to locked medium quality, I doubt that all of the sudden hunreds of people will sub.
On June 10 2015 17:41 Rollora wrote: I wouldn't mind it, I paid for many seasons until it was only PvPvPvP.
how convenient for you that gom did this AFTER the ro16, cuz now you can blame it on protoss
Actually last time they did this very early (after the very first games) and PvPvPvP was throughout all 2014, so I knew in advance "I don't pay for that" In case you didn't realize: I was refering to past broadcasts
so, GOM basically claims that their twitch subscriber revenue is paramount for them to survive as a business? If I was a potential sponsor/business partner, I don't think I'd want to go into business with someone who relies on twitch subs/ads. Seriously, they have no idea how to run a business. And furthermore, after seeing what quality free medium was, why the hell would I even pay for that now that it's gonna be behind the paywall again
On June 10 2015 17:51 KelsierSC wrote: I wonder if GSL will follow a pattern of offering Ro.16 & Ro.32 in free medium quality but when it reaches the important rounds they only offer low. That actually sounds like a reasonable model. I can't really put into words why but it feels like a fair approach.
Don't know why it reminded me a "shady" guy offering you free try of his "good stuff" so you can then buy it when the proper time comes But yeah, it sounds good to me too.
I'm almost positive that GOM doesn't supply drugs. =)
On June 10 2015 17:47 Destructicon wrote: Man, I feel really sorry for the GSL and what they seem to be forced to do and can't help but feel it goes back to when Blizzard forced the Twitch partnership down their throat, ever since its been downhill.
Exactly this. People are quick to point fingers at GSL being greedy, but after all, it's a company that was forced to abandon it's properly working system for Twitch.TV and all the flaws with it (terrible, loud, repetitive adds, stuttering, twitch chat) probably costing them in revenue. Afterwards, they were sort of abandoned with a poorly working system... At least SSL can stream on Azubu, which has higher quality, less stutter etc.
At this point, I wonder if GSL will even be around for the 2016 season. It is a pretty real possibility that they will just be gone. Financially they can not compete with SPOTV, and I doubt they are making a profit from their English stream. Even their Korean stream could be operating at a deficit.
On June 10 2015 17:56 afreecaTV.Char wrote: At this point, I wonder if GSL will even be around for the 2016 season. It is a pretty real possibility that they will just be gone. Financially they can not compete with SPOTV, and I doubt they are making a profit from their English stream. Even their Korean stream could be operating at a deficit.
I think you're right. Hopefully someone else can take over so we keep the double tournament format.
On June 10 2015 17:56 afreecaTV.Char wrote: At this point, I wonder if GSL will even be around for the 2016 season. It is a pretty real possibility that they will just be gone. Financially they can not compete with SPOTV, and I doubt they are making a profit from their English stream. Even their Korean stream could be operating at a deficit.
I think you're right. Hopefully someone else can take over so we keep the double tournament format.
On June 10 2015 17:59 KelsierSC wrote: I think that there is probably more to GOM's thinking than, "we desperately need money now so let's put the free quality on low"
It could just be a new model they are experimenting with.
On June 10 2015 17:56 afreecaTV.Char wrote: At this point, I wonder if GSL will even be around for the 2016 season. It is a pretty real possibility that they will just be gone. Financially they can not compete with SPOTV, and I doubt they are making a profit from their English stream. Even their Korean stream could be operating at a deficit.
I think you're right. Hopefully someone else can take over so we keep the double tournament format.
If GOM did fold then Blizzard would make SSL the exclusive, Korean WCS tournament.
Without Blizzard support, no tournament outside of Kespa would be allowed to exist.
On June 10 2015 17:59 KelsierSC wrote: I think that there is probably more to GOM's thinking than, "we desperately need money now so let's put the free quality on low"
It could just be a new model they are experimenting with.
New? It's even the second time this year that they try this..
On June 10 2015 17:56 afreecaTV.Char wrote: At this point, I wonder if GSL will even be around for the 2016 season. It is a pretty real possibility that they will just be gone. Financially they can not compete with SPOTV, and I doubt they are making a profit from their English stream. Even their Korean stream could be operating at a deficit.
I think you're right. Hopefully someone else can take over so we keep the double tournament format.
If GOM did fold then Blizzard would make SSL the exclusive, Korean WCS tournament.
Without Blizzard support, no tournament outside of Kespa would be allowed to exist.
On June 10 2015 17:59 KelsierSC wrote: I think that there is probably more to GOM's thinking than, "we desperately need money now so let's put the free quality on low"
It could just be a new model they are experimenting with.
On June 10 2015 17:59 KelsierSC wrote: I think that there is probably more to GOM's thinking than, "we desperately need money now so let's put the free quality on low"
It could just be a new model they are experimenting with.
they did this last season already
they switched it for the ro.8 specifically? If so then it confirms what I thought that they have adopted this, "paywall for the premier rounds" which feels like a fair system.
On June 10 2015 17:59 KelsierSC wrote: I think that there is probably more to GOM's thinking than, "we desperately need money now so let's put the free quality on low"
It could just be a new model they are experimenting with.
You must not have read the OP
i'm saying there is probably more to it than was in the OP
On June 10 2015 17:51 xdevilx2 wrote: If they struggle with money then I doubt that the few extra subs that they will get help. I mean thats maybe 200$ more?
And were did you get those figures?
Regarding the money side of this decision.
Essentially, this move hurts the english viewership only. As far as I know, the majority of sponsors of the GSL do not have the english audience as a target group. So increased english viewership offers nothing to Gom. Therefore its absolutely reasonable to "charge extra" simply because neither GOM nor their sponsors were benefitting from english viewership in the first place.
The only reason to provide a free HD stream is because the additional exposure offers enough value to the sponsors to compensate the provider of the service (which would be the Goms, Dreahhacks, IEMs) to not put up a paywall.
Most reasonable economic "growth models" would advice against this sort of move. But for an organisation with no intent on expanding or bringing in foreign "investment" - aka sponsors - there is really nothing to say against it.
On June 10 2015 17:59 KelsierSC wrote: I think that there is probably more to GOM's thinking than, "we desperately need money now so let's put the free quality on low"
It could just be a new model they are experimenting with.
they did this last season already
they switched it for the ro.8 specifically? If so then it confirms what I thought that they have adopted this, "paywall for the premier rounds" which feels like a fair system.
On June 10 2015 18:06 pmp10 wrote: How much support from WCS is GOM getting? If it's about the same as SSL then they are perfectly replaceable.
it isn't a simple case of phoning up blizzard and stating you are "starting a tournament so fund me please"
Someone in the scene will have to start up a tournament , get the infrastructure and get the players involved, then get blizzard involved. With how the scene is in Korea , and with kespa ,potentially, muscling out the competition. It is no where near a case of GSL being "perfectly replacable
On June 10 2015 18:06 boomshine wrote: Low profit still is profit, think about the community
No profit is still no profit. Their revenue from twitch ads / subs more than likely do not cover the expenses to run it, the English steam. Knowing that the Korean broadcast is more expensive than the English one, they may not be completely covering their expenses either.
On June 10 2015 18:06 pmp10 wrote: How much support from WCS is GOM getting? If it's about the same as SSL then they are perfectly replaceable.
it isn't a simple case of phoning up blizzard and stating you are "starting a tournament so fund me please"
Someone in the scene will have to start up a tournament , get the infrastructure and get the players involved, then get blizzard involved. With how the scene is in Korea , and with kespa ,potentially, muscling out the competition. It is no where near a case of GSL being "perfectly replacable
Maybe, but I can't imagine Blizzard being happy about having half of their Korean premier tournaments being broadcasted in low. Not the best contract negotiation position.
On June 10 2015 17:51 xdevilx2 wrote: If they struggle with money then I doubt that the few extra subs that they will get help. I mean thats maybe 200$ more?
And were did you get those figures?
Regarding the money side of this decision.
Essentially, this move hurts the english viewership only. As far as I know, the majority of sponsors of the GSL do not have the english audience as a target group. So increased english viewership offers nothing to Gom. Therefore its absolutely reasonable to "charge extra" simply because neither GOM nor their sponsors were benefitting from english viewership in the first place.
The only reason to provide a free HD stream is because the additional exposure offers enough value to the sponsors to compensate the provider of the service (which would be the Goms, Dreahhacks, IEMs) to not put up a paywall.
Most reasonable economic "growth models" would advice against this sort of move. But for an organisation with no intent on expanding or bringing in foreign "investment" - aka sponsors - there is really nothing to say against it.
Happy to hear counter arguments :D
GSL = Global Starcraft II League, but apparently it's sponsored by Koreans for Koreans. Why an international sponsor can't be brought on board to allow the English stream to be high / source, I don't know.
GSL is the premier league of SC2, with the best tradition and some of the best shows. Tastosis are the best couple of casters. They are human beings and have moods....just like anyone else. When they are on their game, nobody from SPOTV can equal them.
I enjoyed subbing to the excellent content that GSL was providing before this twitch BS. I payed, got premium quality, GOM player smooth working (i still use GOM player at home today for movies) , no commercials.......
All the people here that are bashing GOM and claiming its death and ''they dont know what they are doing'" should really think about what they would do if they were in GOM's place. GOM was forced into a place where their content''s quality is controlled by another company (twitch) which may or may not care about the GSL at all. The guy's message in the OP is crystal clear, the time is now to choose between either paying to support, or NO GSL AT ALL. For me, the choice is crystal clear. I will pay. Each one can have his own choice.
On June 10 2015 18:06 pmp10 wrote: How much support from WCS is GOM getting? If it's about the same as SSL then they are perfectly replaceable.
it isn't a simple case of phoning up blizzard and stating you are "starting a tournament so fund me please"
Someone in the scene will have to start up a tournament , get the infrastructure and get the players involved, then get blizzard involved. With how the scene is in Korea , and with kespa ,potentially, muscling out the competition. It is no where near a case of GSL being "perfectly replacable
Maybe, but I can't imagine Blizzard being happy about having half of their Korean premier tournaments being broadcasted in low. Not the best contract negotiation position.
what does that have to do with GSL being replaceable?
Korean business has a reputation for adopting a hardball approach so it is possible this is a move from GOM to get more money out of blizzard.
It's sad to see this happen, i do not approve this change since when they stream other games like world of tanks and what not they don't need to set the stream to low. Not gonna watch gsl anymore.
On June 10 2015 18:14 Hassan_RO wrote: The guy's message in the OP is crystal clear, the time is now to choose between either paying to support, or NO GSL AT ALL. For me, the choice is crystal clear. I will pay. Each one can have his own choice.
I pay (sub/donate a bit) to my favorite streamers from time to time, whenever I feel like it. But I do because I want to show my appreciation, like "hey, good job, you deserve it". Forcing people to sub or try to watch the unwatchable stream on low (is it even 240p?). Nope, they won't get anything from me that way. That's only my choice though.
Not gonna lie though, I won't be sad when Artosis will be free from GOM to cast more passionstone stuff.
On June 10 2015 18:14 Hassan_RO wrote: All the people here that are bashing GOM and claiming its death and ''they dont know what they are doing'" should really think about what they would do if they were in GOM's place.
I would be working hard to provide value and incentive to people who subscribe, such as a clear and easy VOD system, exclusive content (interviews, selections etc) and whatever else they may think of. The live stream is how you bring people to the service, and it's the extras that make people want to pay. Pushing people away probably gives a short term gain but hurts in the long run.
Bad move IMO. Watching random streams showed me people love to subscribe to support their favorite streamers, not because they are forced to. Some of them (and not talking about MOBA streams) get A LOT of subs every month.
This should lower the viewer count a lot and in the long run the money they make.
On June 10 2015 18:06 pmp10 wrote: How much support from WCS is GOM getting? If it's about the same as SSL then they are perfectly replaceable.
it isn't a simple case of phoning up blizzard and stating you are "starting a tournament so fund me please"
Someone in the scene will have to start up a tournament , get the infrastructure and get the players involved, then get blizzard involved. With how the scene is in Korea , and with kespa ,potentially, muscling out the competition. It is no where near a case of GSL being "perfectly replacable
Maybe, but I can't imagine Blizzard being happy about having half of their Korean premier tournaments being broadcasted in low. Not the best contract negotiation position.
what does that have to do with GSL being replaceable?
Korean business has a reputation for adopting a hardball approach so it is possible this is a move from GOM to get more money out of blizzard.
You should really word your speculations more like they're just that. Otherwise it's difficult to have a reasonable discussion.
In order to being replaced you first have to have the running contract expire/ not prolonged. That is what it has to do with "GSL being replaceable". I'm adding to the discussion, not merely responding to your claims.
If, in these dire times for SC2, any other company is willing to invest in a replacement tournament seems not too likely..
Situation with Spotv or Kespa is entirely different from GOM. Not that an average viewer necessarily knows or should care, and they are in their right not to, but please stop talking out of your entitled ass.
On June 10 2015 18:15 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Well I have never watched GSL so this doesnt effect me :D
I just waited for people writting stuff like this. Pretty narrowminded. If GSL shuts down, it will effect the korean scene, foreign scene and just StarCraft overall.
I would surmise that when the quality was on low, GOM saw an increase in subscriptions - makes sense - who want's to watch when you can't even read the flippin worker / army sizes etc due to pixelated low quality.. So they went back to medium, and likely saw a drop off in subscriptions, and well.. this is the result - back to low.
We have to remember that GOM is in this to make money, just like you and I want more money in our pockets, so does GOM. For good or bad, that's just the way it is.
Now I want to give some feedback which hopefully GOM will read, as to why I wont be subscribing, and what it would take for me to resubscribe.
Firstly, as a foreigner I feel somewhat left out in the dark regarding your content. It seems so polarised towards the Korean market only, this is in stark contrast to your statement GOMTV, known as the global standard for eSports. It's not global if you only really cater to the Korean market. All the pieces you run in between games is only ever in Korean, no subtitles. Post match interviews are only ever in Korean, with translations through an earpiece. It seems to me that you don't cater well for the rest of us. Perhaps this is a small point, but for me is a small slice of the whole, and can (and should) Be improved upon in my most humble opinion. Proleague is exactly the same. This regularly gets commented on in live report threads here on TL.
Seeker made a comment in a thread on the Proleague MarineKing incident (where he translated for us what was being said) On the workload involved in doing this, finding the time and so on. It shouldn't be on his (or others) shoulders to translate for you. It's your product and if you want global appeal, you need to get more global in your production.
On June 10 2015 16:16 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I prefer Proleague, GSL has 2 casters who wish they were casting other games and is equal in game quality to S2SL, so there's really no reason to watch anymore is there?
The above hits the nail on the head for me. And is the biggest barrier for you getting my money. When I watch rugby, guess what, I like to hear about rugby (insane position to take I know) Same for football or documentaries. If I want a dose of any media, I like to have that topic on the board. Not random bullshit. I don't want comedy, or stories, or how excited someone is for the next season of Game of Thrones. I want to hear about StarCraft. Period. Keep the stories for post game. This is not to say that the odd anecdote isn't welcome. But the amount of extraneous crap spouted by Artosis and Tasteless is a real turn off for me. I recall a game moonglade and tasteless casted which lasted about 8 mins, the first 7 of which was tasteless waxing lyrical about how excited he was for the next season of Game of Thrones. This is not good enough. And guys, before you leap to the (ex) Casting Archons defense, this is about my thoughts on the whole GOM package and how they can get me to stump up for GSL (like I do for proleague).
When I watch CS:GO, DOTA or even the odd bit of Heroes (still following you Khaldor, keep it up ) Its about CS:GO, DOTA or Heroes!! Shocking. Might those Twitch channel surfers be more interested to be taught by casters concepts of the game? What units did? What's happening? New META? Transfers? Build orders in use? What happened last game? What's coming up next week? Would anyone have me believe that the downtime at the start couldn't be better filled? An aspect of the game negated with LotV though.. Would you have me believe that the StarCraft scene is stale and uninteresting with nothing worthy of discussion? Just get the fuck out of here.
These two points for me are stopping me, and of the two, the second is by far the greater. I don't have a problem with you asking for money for providing the service you do. It's how business works (though I have to say that "medium or riot" Promo codes is just slapping me in the face - biting the hand that feeds you.
I thank you for continuing to give us GSL, it must be hard with such a niche small market. I understand that money makes the world go round. Money I'd be happy to give you, if you just polished the product a little more, focussed the casters, and integrated the foreign scene. Though ultimately I feel your future is out of your hands, and lies in Blizzards, hope you have contingency plans..
i'd like to see the finances here, but i understand that's even more touchy because there's going to be a lot of questions raised out of a company trying to be transparent.
we never really get to see who's behind production like when we had mr.chae on board (who is now with afreeca i believe). there was a lot of money injected into the first seasons and it eventually teetered off when (i'm assuming) there was less of a community to back it monetarily.
please remember that attendance to all regular league games is free. i can imagine that what they provide for the audience there has diminished as well (junk food getting passed around, aside).
it's up to the players as well as the organizers to come up with something sustainable. having 3-0's, non attractive players as well as builds, and no build up of hype surrounding player matchups and their abilities all factor into making the scene quite niche.
we are lucky to have a community where we can freely talk about this stuff like we're all friends who are watching side by side. it is however demotivating as a spectator if your game simply isn't the most popular when all your other friends are watching and playing something else.
starcraft 2 will just have to get more popular or else the quality of everything involved will eventually devolve like with what is happening with GSL now.
GSL 2010: Buy the ticket and it will go toward making the show and the stream better. GSL 2015: Buy the ticket or we will downgrade your experience into oblivion.
Honestly, doing things like this will get GSL no new viewers, and obviously isn't a sound long term plan. They've cut so many things from GSL now; the website, gstl, finals venues, vods uploaded late or not at all, and don't communicate anything to their fans except for middle finger announcements like these. I can't begin to even speculate what kind of mismanagement issues they have that would cause this, but it just feels like they are trying to milk a shriveling viewerbase.
The sad thing is I understand completely that they need to earn money. But I'm not going to watch low. There's too many other things to do/watch that is not low quality.
Hm, in general i have no problem to pay for stuff ib enjoy. BUT i feel like GOMTV doesn't produce a product which is worth the money anymore. It was worth it when we had a vod system which was excellent, when tastosis were on their a game and when there simply was no competitor. Now we have SSL and Proleague, both are far superior imo. So yeah, no thanks GOM
So how many subscriptions are they planing to get to fix said financial problems because i dont see many people getting one due to downgrading the stream quality, depending on the deal they have with twitch i doubt they will make that much more money and if getting 200-300$$ more will fix your financial troubles then i dont know what to say. Seeking sponsorships and deals is the way to do it i guess but that is something you need to acquire with your own business skills.Next thing i expect from GSL is to do parteon and indigogo campaigns.It seems that the company is going down the way of the dodo hopefully kespa will keep the game alive till we get the new expansion.
On June 10 2015 18:30 Averse wrote: GSL 2010: Buy the ticket and it will go toward making the show and the stream better. GSL 2015: Buy the ticket or we will downgrade your experience into oblivion.
It is so annyoing how GSL turned out to be after years of support.
Back in 2010, there was so much potential: A good player A VOD collection/gallery that just needed some fine tweaking for more usability (better finding them, tags, direct links in the liquipedia) a more usable organizer with all the important dates exportable to my google calender or so some minor tweaks every student can make for them within a week.
5 years later all of that is gone. Sometimes I have to search hard for videos if I ever find them. No real chronological order or whatever. If there wasn't the liquipedia, I wouldn't be able to watch the awesome VODs anymore.
And you could check out the players and player stats back then. Now... I dunno, didn't go to site in years (does it still exist)? And what would have been awesome is: if you look up a player, see all his ever broadcasted games under his "profile".
BTW quick suggestion: could VODs in the liquipedia also include a 1-5 star rating (depending on the votes in the LR thread) or is this too much work or too much spoiler. Just came into my mind.
On June 10 2015 17:13 swissman777 wrote: Imho, I can only hope that this is a good decision. It's hard to see the actual financial situation of GOM, so I can't claim whether this is an act of desperation or cunning and arrogant display of entrepreneurship. However, usually every legitimate corporations acts desperate because they are truly desperate. They don't use cheap tricks to cash in unless they are very confident with their customer loyalty (ie youtube and maybe apple). Desperate times call for desperate and panicky measures. If you truly want GSL to continue on with its great production, you should try to pity them and help them.
Or like in the real world let competition decide on who get's to stay and who doesn't. GSL has been very prestigous up to this point, but whoever offers the better product (in this case best quality for smallest investment, which clearly isn't GOM right now) gets the majority of viewership in that department.
Or pay where the quality is due. If you like SSL more, then sure, let the competition rule out the winner. However, no one should be frugal and expect good quality. If GSL can't continue with the support it has, do you think that SSL can? SSL may be offering more in terms of higher free resolution stream, but how long could it last before SSL runs out of their initial revenue made to attract customers like it is for every new entreprises?
Moreover, you must also know that once GSL goes out, a monopoly both in individual and team leagues is a terrible news for us. Spotv would then have the freedom to do whatever it pleases to a large extent.
Well, as a continuous supporter/subscriber of GSL content throughout the years I remember times where GSL had the monopoly in korean SC2 and even back then stream quality (even for ticket holders) has been lower than that of comparable (western) content producers while still having ads. We were complaining back then, the adjustments GOM did was moving to a new studio, cut GSTL, then killing off their own website with a truly priceworthy VOD system to cut costs and now chopping down quality again for possible interested audiences.
I really don't see the viewers' lack of support at fault here, as you say, I pay for quality as it's due, with GSL pulling that move again, how can I justify further financial support when I receive less and less.
We survived during the GSL-only era, we'll surely survive without GSL.
What a dirtbag move, doing it mid season. If they actually cared about their twitch viewer stream base, they'd at least do it after this season of Code S is over, but nope.
Man Medium was good enough so that I could drop by for the occasional game, with Low I just won't watch GSL anymore I guess. I don't want to sound too dramatic but that's the end of an era for me, because it seems they won't go back on this :/
I am not going to watch GSL on low and I am not going to pay for any season pass. In the days of BW the korean leagues were better watchable than in 2015 and thats a long time ago.
If you don't change your business model you will have to deal with a smaller market share outside of Korea.
On June 10 2015 18:46 yoshi245 wrote: What a dirtbag move, doing it mid season. If they actually cared about their twitch viewer stream base, they'd at least do it after this season of Code S is over, but nope.
On June 10 2015 18:46 yoshi245 wrote: What a dirtbag move, doing it mid season. If they actually cared about their twitch viewer stream base, they'd at least do it after this season of Code S is over, but nope.
Why would they care about a leeching viewer base that is impossible to monetize? The adblock numbers are through the roof in esports. They don't help keeping the thing afloat. All that matters is how many that subscribe. And no, bringing new viewers to sc2 isn't a thing at this point.
On June 10 2015 18:46 yoshi245 wrote: What a dirtbag move, doing it mid season. If they actually cared about their twitch viewer stream base, they'd at least do it after this season of Code S is over, but nope.
Why would they care about a leeching viewer base that is impossible to monetize? The adblock numbers are through the roof in esports. They don't help keeping the thing afloat. All that matters is how many that subscribe. And no, bringing new viewers to sc2 isn't a thing at this point.
well this is something of blizzards concern. Designing a game that is pure frustration in a lot of cases is blizzards fault. I know a lot of MP games, and I never felt so helpless after 1000s of hours of learning and investment, for instance in situations you just lead the game for the whole time and then you just get protossed, zerged or terraned. There have been 100s of Ideas how to prevent that, but Blizzard doesn't really want to listen.
On June 10 2015 18:46 yoshi245 wrote: What a dirtbag move, doing it mid season. If they actually cared about their twitch viewer stream base, they'd at least do it after this season of Code S is over, but nope.
Why would they care about a leeching viewer base that is impossible to monetize? The adblock numbers are through the roof in esports. They don't help keeping the thing afloat. All that matters is how many that subscribe. And no, bringing new viewers to sc2 isn't a thing at this point.
well this is something of blizzards concern. Designing a game that is pure frustration in a lot of cases is blizzards fault. I know a lot of MP games, and I never felt so helpless after 1000s of hours of learning and investment, for instance in situations you just lead the game for the whole time and then you just get protossed, zerged or terraned. There have been 100s of Ideas how to prevent that, but Blizzard doesn't really want to listen.
D'worry, looks like we will create our own SC2. Also, Starbow looks very nice !
Back to low, sigh. I signed up, and now it looks neat on source. I think caring kinda goes both ways - ppl were saying earlier in this thread that now that they're no longer broke, subscribing isn't a big problem, and I have to agree.
One has to wonder though, that almost all other tournaments (across games) manage to provide high quality streams without it impacting their financing plan. One would think that selling adds and product placement would be easier if one had free high quality streams that people would flock to.
On June 10 2015 18:46 yoshi245 wrote: What a dirtbag move, doing it mid season. If they actually cared about their twitch viewer stream base, they'd at least do it after this season of Code S is over, but nope.
Why would they care about a leeching viewer base that is impossible to monetize? The adblock numbers are through the roof in esports. They don't help keeping the thing afloat. All that matters is how many that subscribe. And no, bringing new viewers to sc2 isn't a thing at this point.
Even those "leeching viewer base" is important. Maybe even more than you realize. With viewer numbers that don't even get you on the first page of twitch you can not realy (re)grow your game/your broadcast into something big. You can also only get new subs when people notice your stream, if someone does not even tune in, they will naturally never be a future subscriber. Old fans will not be happy either as you can see, considering that they get comparable content in better quality, for free.
On June 10 2015 18:46 yoshi245 wrote: What a dirtbag move, doing it mid season. If they actually cared about their twitch viewer stream base, they'd at least do it after this season of Code S is over, but nope.
Why would they care about a leeching viewer base that is impossible to monetize? The adblock numbers are through the roof in esports. They don't help keeping the thing afloat. All that matters is how many that subscribe. And no, bringing new viewers to sc2 isn't a thing at this point.
well this is something of blizzards concern. Designing a game that is pure frustration in a lot of cases is blizzards fault. I know a lot of MP games, and I never felt so helpless after 1000s of hours of learning and investment, for instance in situations you just lead the game for the whole time and then you just get protossed, zerged or terraned. There have been 100s of Ideas how to prevent that, but Blizzard doesn't really want to listen.
Convenient to blame blizzard for breaking the whole game to the point where you lose leads vs every race cos' they're all broken... or maybe you'd rather complain than fix the issues with your play?
On June 10 2015 18:46 yoshi245 wrote: What a dirtbag move, doing it mid season. If they actually cared about their twitch viewer stream base, they'd at least do it after this season of Code S is over, but nope.
Why would they care about a leeching viewer base that is impossible to monetize? The adblock numbers are through the roof in esports. They don't help keeping the thing afloat. All that matters is how many that subscribe. And no, bringing new viewers to sc2 isn't a thing at this point.
well this is something of blizzards concern. Designing a game that is pure frustration in a lot of cases is blizzards fault. I know a lot of MP games, and I never felt so helpless after 1000s of hours of learning and investment, for instance in situations you just lead the game for the whole time and then you just get protossed, zerged or terraned. There have been 100s of Ideas how to prevent that, but Blizzard doesn't really want to listen.
D'worry, looks like we will create our own SC2. Also, Starbow looks very nice !
While I know what you mean with Starbow, I am not sure about what you mean by your first sentence. Sorry, pls explain. HELP! I am curious.
On June 10 2015 18:46 yoshi245 wrote: What a dirtbag move, doing it mid season. If they actually cared about their twitch viewer stream base, they'd at least do it after this season of Code S is over, but nope.
Why would they care about a leeching viewer base that is impossible to monetize? The adblock numbers are through the roof in esports. They don't help keeping the thing afloat. All that matters is how many that subscribe. And no, bringing new viewers to sc2 isn't a thing at this point.
well this is something of blizzards concern. Designing a game that is pure frustration in a lot of cases is blizzards fault. I know a lot of MP games, and I never felt so helpless after 1000s of hours of learning and investment, for instance in situations you just lead the game for the whole time and then you just get protossed, zerged or terraned. There have been 100s of Ideas how to prevent that, but Blizzard doesn't really want to listen.
Convenient to blame blizzard for breaking the whole game to the point where you lose leads vs every race cos' they're all broken... or maybe you'd rather complain than fix the issues with your play?
Such an intelligent comment had to come along. What if I tell you its not my "play", but it also happens to lots of pro players. Do you tell them "learn to play" as well? I didn't say the game is broken, but it is too versatile, and leads, established through constant harassing and gaining small advantages over time, shouldn't just be over if the person doesn't look for one sec. That is not only frustrating to play but also to watch.
Thx,I am doing fine in diamond, still the level of frustration is higher than any other "skillbased" game, since these frustration-moments cannot be compensated by skill. And if you refer to skill, its also only in SC2 that "noobs" get so far with their one trick pony plays.
I am playing competitive multiplayer since 1996, I have seen quite some things. Trust me, it is not just some "whine" I spread here, when I say, that there are mechanics in this game, that circumvent skill, bring too much randomness into the game and make it frustrating. I don't blame balance or skill or whatever.
The game is based to be balanced around that 0.1 % player base that can play the game on that level. Beyond that, the game gets increasingly frustrating sometimes. Blizzard shouldn't rebalance the game. That would be the worst, but they should at least think of things that make the game more fun, for the 99.9% other players. There is a reason SC:BW and Starbow gain popularity again. And no, its not my skill, but thx for searching for the easy answer. Hope you don't speak for Blizzard
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming, since afaik O'Gaming is the only source of HQ GSL for non-subscribers.
By the way, the only judgement of it being a good move or not will be the end results. If people find this move bad and don't want to pay don't blame those people, blame the business. The burden of profitability is not on the people, it's on the business god dammit.
I see it the same way as pirating, where you'd have people in the cultural industry saying "wah wah, people are bad, they're pirating our products instead of buying them", yet there's successful platforms that markets cultural products that could otherwise being easily pirated, so maybe think twice about how you may have overpriced or even directly pissed your customers (like those protections on CD/DVD that were a fucking PAIN for the usual customer, but that pirates would never be bothered with...)
I believe most people are inclined to pay for something they want (well, when they can). They turn away when they think the money/effort is not worth it.
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming, since afaik O'Gaming is the only source of HQ GSL for non-subscribers.
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming.
The real problem is that O'gaming streaming purely in french, we have to choose between video quality and artosis/tasteless radio
They won't get a single view count from me anymore. I'd be ok if both Koreans and the West were getting low quality but only foreigners get screwed. meanwhile they gladly accept blizzard american money to sustain them.
On June 10 2015 18:46 yoshi245 wrote: What a dirtbag move, doing it mid season. If they actually cared about their twitch viewer stream base, they'd at least do it after this season of Code S is over, but nope.
Why would they care about a leeching viewer base that is impossible to monetize? The adblock numbers are through the roof in esports. They don't help keeping the thing afloat. All that matters is how many that subscribe. And no, bringing new viewers to sc2 isn't a thing at this point.
Even those "leeching viewer base" is important. Maybe even more than you realize. With viewer numbers that don't even get you on the first page of twitch you can not realy (re)grow your game/your broadcast into something big. You can also only get new subs when people notice your stream, if someone does not even tune in, they will naturally never be a future subscriber. Old fans will not be happy either as you can see, considering that they get comparable content in better quality, for free.
Everyone in Sc2 knows about GSL. Sc2 isn't growing.
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming.
The real problem is that O'gaming streaming purely in french, we have to choose between video quality and artosis/tasteless radio
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming.
The real problem is that O'gaming streaming purely in french, we have to choose between video quality and artosis/tasteless radio
French is a beautiful language, I assure you d:
Yeah, only language where getting insulted in CSGO is an enjoyable experience. Ta mere.
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming.
The real problem is that O'gaming streaming purely in french, we have to choose between video quality and artosis/tasteless radio
French is a beautiful language, I assure you d:
not like we speak that much french while casting anyway :D
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming.
The real problem is that O'gaming streaming purely in french, we have to choose between video quality and artosis/tasteless radio
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming.
The real problem is that O'gaming streaming purely in french, we have to choose between video quality and artosis/tasteless radio
French is a beautiful language, I assure you d:
Yeah, only language where getting insulted in CSGO is an enjoyable experience. Ta mere.
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming.
The real problem is that O'gaming streaming purely in french, we have to choose between video quality and artosis/tasteless radio
French is a beautiful language, I assure you d:
I doubt I can learn french before o'gaming stream starts tonight :D
While I know what you mean with Starbow, I am not sure about what you mean by your first sentence. Sorry, pls explain. HELP! I am curious.
I can't remember which thread, mite of been a LOTV one, but there is talk of the community fixing the main issues, like redesigning Protoss, getting rid of the gimmicks and quick fixes, new economy etc
It sounds great to me, if not long overdue. Although Starbow has already done this, but with more of a BW focus.
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming.
The real problem is that O'gaming streaming purely in french, we have to choose between video quality and artosis/tasteless radio
French is a beautiful language, I assure you d:
Yeah, only language where getting insulted in CSGO is an enjoyable experience. Ta mere.
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming.
The real problem is that O'gaming streaming purely in french, we have to choose between video quality and artosis/tasteless radio
French is a beautiful language, I assure you d:
Yeah, only language where getting insulted in CSGO is an enjoyable experience. Ta mere.
While I know what you mean with Starbow, I am not sure about what you mean by your first sentence. Sorry, pls explain. HELP! I am curious.
I can't remember which thread, mite of been a LOTV one, but there is talk of the community fixing the main issues, like redesigning Protoss, getting rid of the gimmicks and quick fixes, new economy etc
It sounds great to me, if not long overdue. Although Starbow has already done this, but with more of a BW focus.
wow that sounds great. If you ever find the link again, pls let me know!
Dont know why people are so mad and surprised by this. At the end of the day GSL is a business, you want GSL to still be around then you will have to agree with what they are providing.
Stream viewership is embaressing for arguably the biggest tournament in the starcraft 2 scene and if GSL feel that its not making any profit by investing into a better stream quality then im afraid thats the way its going to be.
While I know what you mean with Starbow, I am not sure about what you mean by your first sentence. Sorry, pls explain. HELP! I am curious.
I can't remember which thread, mite of been a LOTV one, but there is talk of the community fixing the main issues, like redesigning Protoss, getting rid of the gimmicks and quick fixes, new economy etc
It sounds great to me, if not long overdue. Although Starbow has already done this, but with more of a BW focus.
wow that sounds great. If you ever find the link again, pls let me know!
But, even with the support from the users, it became low profitable business that we had to reconsider about investing anything more to the Global broadcast.
I hate when people lie to try to get you to give them their money. Their investment in stream equipment and venue has already been made. What should matter next is actually creating great content so that people then decide hey, they are worth giving money to after all.
GOM is not straight out awful by any standards, as they have the ability to bring great content, especially to koreans who only have ~1k viewers or less on YT at SOURCE QUALITY, however this clear favoritism and blatant lie is disheartening to say the least. As a viewer I really reconsider supporting them, or any company for that matter, when steps like this are taken.
does anyone even know what's the price difference between broadcasting in Low quality vs broadcasting in Medium?. i thought twitch gives quality settings on streams for free provided you get a number of X viewers.
I watch everything except GSL. Can´t stand Tasteless and i won´t pay if SSL is around managing a buisness model (as every esport tournament) without a paywall. Low qualitiy looks disgusting, worse than my old gameboy graphic. I wonder if GSL will be still there in 2016?
On June 10 2015 20:12 xM(Z wrote: does anyone even know what's the price difference between broadcasting in Low quality vs broadcasting in Medium?. i thought twitch gives quality settings on streams for free provided you get a number of X viewers.
They are saying they make more money by making people sub, not by twitch restrictions. This is laughable, because if they worded it this way it'd sound terrible, and moreover, I'd be willing to go out on a limb and contest how much of a difference it really is because $4.99 subs = $2.5 per person which is... not very much especially if you've seen the % of subs compared to total viewers...
As a partner I can tell you, you literally just go into your control panel and click which settings are available for free. There is no cost associated with it what so ever.
I hate when people lie to try to get you to give them their money. Their investment in stream equipment and venue has already been made. What should matter next is actually creating great content so that people then decide hey, they are worth giving money to after all.
While I agree with the notion that they already bought the equipment, they do have other sources that cost money, sound/production/casters, etc. I don't agree with their step, but saying they have no other cost after buying equipment is a little short sighted imo.
On June 10 2015 20:12 xM(Z wrote: does anyone even know what's the price difference between broadcasting in Low quality vs broadcasting in Medium?. i thought twitch gives quality settings on streams for free provided you get a number of X viewers.
I thought you always broadcast on source quality, the changes made for the other qualities high, medium, and low are made in the dashboard. Also the bitrate changes, and actual scaling happens on the Twitch server side of things, so saying production cost increased because of streaming on medium is just blatantly lying to your "would be customers".
I hate when people lie to try to get you to give them their money. Their investment in stream equipment and venue has already been made. What should matter next is actually creating great content so that people then decide hey, they are worth giving money to after all.
While I agree with the notion that they already bought the equipment, they do have other sources that cost money, sound/production/casters, etc. I don't agree with their step, but saying they have no other cost after buying equipment is a little short sighted imo.
On June 10 2015 20:12 xM(Z wrote: does anyone even know what's the price difference between broadcasting in Low quality vs broadcasting in Medium?. i thought twitch gives quality settings on streams for free provided you get a number of X viewers.
I thought you always broadcast on source quality, the changes made for the other qualities high, medium, and low are made in the dashboard. Also the bitrate changes, and actual scaling happens on the Twitch server side of things, so saying production cost increased because of streaming on medium is just blatantly lying to your "would be customers".
The cost between HD and low (not even medium) is already paid for... (how else could subscribers watch HD?)
I hate when people lie to try to get you to give them their money. Their investment in stream equipment and venue has already been made. What should matter next is actually creating great content so that people then decide hey, they are worth giving money to after all.
While I agree with the notion that they already bought the equipment, they do have other sources that cost money, sound/production/casters, etc. I don't agree with their step, but saying they have no other cost after buying equipment is a little short sighted imo.
On June 10 2015 20:12 xM(Z wrote: does anyone even know what's the price difference between broadcasting in Low quality vs broadcasting in Medium?. i thought twitch gives quality settings on streams for free provided you get a number of X viewers.
I thought you always broadcast on source quality, the changes made for the other qualities high, medium, and low are made in the dashboard. Also the bitrate changes, and actual scaling happens on the Twitch server side of things, so saying production cost increased because of streaming on medium is just blatantly lying to your "would be customers".
I would be understanding of this fact if it wasn't for the fact that none of the korean sites have a pay wall, all GSL(high wcs tournaments) are supposed to have 720p at least etc. etc.
It's just a greedy justification, and when put into perspective they are literally just to try to make money off international fans.
This alone wouldn't be a problem, because obviously companies have to make money, but to essentially make the tournament unwatchable and then say 'oh we are not profiting enough' yet allowing another source quality location for free and restricting its access makes this decision ... sort of questionable at best.
On June 10 2015 19:52 BisuDagger wrote: This is a terrible move. GSL on mobile is my only way of watching. At low quality it is completely unwatchable. I'm very disappointed.
Well, low quality is problematically bad. There are spikes where the quality becomes extremely pixelated for 2-4 seconds, making it impossible to tell supply counts, numbers, or anything but the most major outlines of whats going on on screen. I've been watching GSL sporadically, a bit whenever its on, for a while now; now that it's Low only I won't
On June 10 2015 20:41 oOKamuOo wrote: Thanks to addblocker .... if this wouldn't exist we had a high quality stream...
having a choice is most of the times good
besides that i dont see me watching gsl much, just trying today, it feels like i am watching h.o.t forever back in 2000 with the 240p streams -_- tastosis casting isnt something that draws me in so quality of the stream is pretty important
On June 10 2015 19:52 BisuDagger wrote: This is a terrible move. GSL on mobile is my only way of watching. At low quality it is completely unwatchable. I'm very disappointed.
Why is this your only way of watching?
I wake up when the second set of players play (GSL)/ second Proleague match happens (6:30 EST.) GSL runs while I'm getting ready for work so I keep my tablet by my side as I'm getting ready and then can use my wifi at work to finish watching.
On June 10 2015 21:05 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: just opened stream. Low quality is not so bad. I can see all the texts and other
It's not end of the world. I have a couple things I can't see because low quality hurts my color blindness. I actually can't see blinding cloud in most cases.
On June 10 2015 21:05 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: just opened stream. Low quality is not so bad. I can see all the texts and other
It's not end of the world. I have a couple things I can't see because low quality hurts my color blindness. I actually can't see blinding cloud in most cases.
I dont think ive known anyone to pay because the picture quality is low... i tend to pay if the show is good..but if you make me watch this shit, i will never pay
total Bullshit. unprofitable? maybe more ppl would watch it if it were watchable.and maybe not charging 13(?) bucks a month might also help. And the commercials. Holy shit, that alone is often the reason i switch it off (besides the ridiculous quality which is the 2nd reason i dont watch it too often). a regular restream on EU and NA timezones would also increase viewership (720p at least obviously) the stream lags and stutters like a mofo on every setting.. and wasnt there a rule by Blizzard to provide free 720p streams for WCS? (i remember HuK wanting to eat a broom if this wasnt true ~2 months back on Desrows weekly stream thing)
typical Gom statement, didnt expect it any onther way from those... people
On June 10 2015 21:05 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: just opened stream. Low quality is not so bad. I can see all the texts and other
It's not end of the world. I have a couple things I can't see because low quality hurts my color blindness. I actually can't see blinding cloud in most cases.
I find the fact that some people are blaming this on "durr SC2 so bad design" utterly ridiculous honestly.
Here's a perspective from someone who used to watch tons and doesn't anymore: GOMTV used to be the only SC2 thing that I would pretty much religiously watch especially GSTL. I kept a subscription going even when there were periods where I literally had no time to watch anything and I'd go back to catch up later. Sometimes I'd dig through the archives to find games I'd not seen.
Then it went to twitch. I didn't have a twitch account and even having made one I don't use it, I don't subscribe or follow people on twitch. Then GSTL went away. And Code S became part of the weird WCS system. They changed the player to something I don't really like as much as their own and also changed most of what I actually liked to watch.
So...yeah as a result I lost all interest and don't watch GSL anymore. So they don't get my money anymore. Its as simple as that.
I'm not subscribing to something because I'm forced to. I'm a 3SL subscriber and for a long time WCS EU sub, because I like the production quality, the casters and the games not because I was forced to pay so I could see more than pixelwars. Haven't watched GSL for quite a time now because of the restrictions. 7,99€ for Netflix is much more profitable than this.
On June 10 2015 21:05 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: just opened stream. Low quality is not so bad. I can see all the texts and other
It's not end of the world. I have a couple things I can't see because low quality hurts my color blindness. I actually can't see blinding cloud in most cases.
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming, since afaik O'Gaming is the only source of HQ GSL for non-subscribers.
ok, done! French stream muted, and english stream with sound in another tab at the same time. Both get ad time, everyone wins!
Further barriers to entry is a bloody good way to ensure GSL and Korean Starcraft 2 never truly grow further from hereon in.
Blatant money grab based on economic models to grab a quick buck. I wouldn't be surprised to see SC2 disappear from GOM in the not too distant future. Very disappointed, from a long-time subscriber.
(a) Revenue from new subs who pity GOM's plight + (b) revenue from new subs whose threshold for subbing is medium+ stream quality > (c) Cost of running medium instead of low + (d) cost of bad publicity and turning away potential new subs who are offended by this move
I feel like all these factors are actually pretty negligible relative to the cost of production at GOM.
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming, since afaik O'Gaming is the only source of HQ GSL for non-subscribers.
ok, done! French stream muted, and english stream with sound in another tab at the same time. Both get ad time, everyone wins!
On June 10 2015 21:34 SC2Toastie wrote: I have to say, the quality on Low was pretty decent today
It seemed better than their medium even, better bitrate I presume
Plot twist: Official statement designed to purposely piss off viewers by insisting that only Low quality is available, when secretly they've increased all quality so that viewers are actually watching in better resolution... survey taken in one month to test out whether or not the viewers realize they've been watching a better stream, or if they're too stuck on the label of Low vs. Medium.
LOL, ESL offers high quality for free, the tickets for the live event are like 7€ and you get free drinks. (The company with the wings and that cow-like animal). And they have to pay the Casters.
I wonder, how they manage to do that, since they for sure make NO profit out of the live event itself. How many sponsors are involved?
On June 10 2015 21:05 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: just opened stream. Low quality is not so bad. I can see all the texts and other
It's not end of the world. I have a couple things I can't see because low quality hurts my color blindness. I actually can't see blinding cloud in most cases.
On June 10 2015 21:34 SC2Toastie wrote: I have to say, the quality on Low was pretty decent today
It seemed better than their medium even, better bitrate I presume
Plot twist: Official statement designed to purposely piss off viewers by insisting that only Low quality is available, when secretly they've increased all quality so that viewers are actually watching in better resolution... survey taken in one month to test out whether or not the viewers realize they've been watching a better stream, or if they're too stuck on the label of Low vs. Medium.
On June 10 2015 19:14 Horsaphael wrote: That's good for O'Gaming
why? (honest question)
O'Gaming broadcasts GSL at something like 18:00 or 20:00 CET (not sure on that) on the day GSL happened. It's in French, but it's with free Source. Thus less people watching GSL live because of low stream quality = more potential viewers for O'Gaming, since afaik O'Gaming is the only source of HQ GSL for non-subscribers.
ok, done! French stream muted, and english stream with sound in another tab at the same time. Both get ad time, everyone wins!
As a religious proleague and S2SL viewer, I stopped watching GSL the first time they switched to low quality. Didn't realize they went back to medium until this thread, lol. I guess I will continue to go on forgetting GSL even exists.
GOM's day in the sun as the only source of Korean sc2 has passed. Proleague/S2SL is simply better in every possible way... Better production quality? Check. Better English casters? Check. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say they have better gameplay, probably because all the Kespa players get to play in the same arena they're used to for proleague.
It's not that I mind paying for things I enjoy... I was once a subscription holder for GSL as well as a proleague subscriber. But GOM has garnered a reputation as a money sucking grub for me. They are still operating as if they still have a monopoly on quality sc2. The only way a medium free stream costs them more is if people are choosing not to buy the cow because they're getting the milk for free... but by trying to force people to buy the cow, they're simply encouraging them to go down the road to the next farmer who can then entice them for business.
On June 10 2015 15:56 Nezgar wrote: I've been very disappointed with Tastosis for a while now, lowering the stream quality back to low again will probably seal the deal for me. It's just a string of very very poor developments in recent times when it comes to the GSL: -VoD system gone -Code A gone -Tastosis in a passion slump -a lot of problems with laggy/stuttering streams -low quality
I really can't think of any reason why I should pay for the GSL at the moment. S3SL and SPL are both more entertaining and have a better production quality. But instead of taking this as an opportunity to win back the hearts of the fans GOM decides to slam the door shut. Whatever, I don't even care at this point anymore.
Oh, and this is coming from someone who used to pay for GSL for quite a while...
I hate when people lie to try to get you to give them their money. Their investment in stream equipment and venue has already been made. What should matter next is actually creating great content so that people then decide hey, they are worth giving money to after all.
While I agree with the notion that they already bought the equipment, they do have other sources that cost money, sound/production/casters, etc. I don't agree with their step, but saying they have no other cost after buying equipment is a little short sighted imo.
On June 10 2015 20:12 xM(Z wrote: does anyone even know what's the price difference between broadcasting in Low quality vs broadcasting in Medium?. i thought twitch gives quality settings on streams for free provided you get a number of X viewers.
I thought you always broadcast on source quality, the changes made for the other qualities high, medium, and low are made in the dashboard. Also the bitrate changes, and actual scaling happens on the Twitch server side of things, so saying production cost increased because of streaming on medium is just blatantly lying to your "would be customers".
I would be understanding of this fact if it wasn't for the fact that none of the korean sites have a pay wall, all GSL(high wcs tournaments) are supposed to have 720p at least etc. etc.
It's just a greedy justification, and when put into perspective they are literally just to try to make money off international fans.
This alone wouldn't be a problem, because obviously companies have to make money, but to essentially make the tournament unwatchable and then say 'oh we are not profiting enough' yet allowing another source quality location for free and restricting its access makes this decision ... sort of questionable at best.
Very questionable! Though GSL and SSl don't fall under the WCS rules afaik.
I hate when people lie to try to get you to give them their money. Their investment in stream equipment and venue has already been made. What should matter next is actually creating great content so that people then decide hey, they are worth giving money to after all.
While I agree with the notion that they already bought the equipment, they do have other sources that cost money, sound/production/casters, etc. I don't agree with their step, but saying they have no other cost after buying equipment is a little short sighted imo.
On June 10 2015 20:12 xM(Z wrote: does anyone even know what's the price difference between broadcasting in Low quality vs broadcasting in Medium?. i thought twitch gives quality settings on streams for free provided you get a number of X viewers.
I thought you always broadcast on source quality, the changes made for the other qualities high, medium, and low are made in the dashboard. Also the bitrate changes, and actual scaling happens on the Twitch server side of things, so saying production cost increased because of streaming on medium is just blatantly lying to your "would be customers".
The cost between HD and low (not even medium) is already paid for... (how else could subscribers watch HD?)
That's basically what I meant with " They broadcast on source quality." So I agree.
I never understood why blizzard allowed GOM to give anything less than 1080p for free stream after GSL was given such a big role in the WCS. I mean the quality is free for similar tournaments of LoL and DotA? Is blizzard trying to compete in the eSport scene or have they just gave up?
Well i guess the news be relevant to me anyway since "medium" is just not enough. Rip.
On June 10 2015 22:22 NasusAndDraven wrote: I never understood why blizzard allowed GOM to give anything less than 1080p for free stream after GSL was given such a big role in the WCS. I mean the quality is free for similar tournaments of LoL and DotA? Is blizzard trying to compete in the eSport scene or have they just gave up?
Blizzard hasn't given up on competing in the esports scene, they've just given up on Starcraft being their flagship game in the esports scene
well since i'm paying for gsl anyway it does not really affect me since i think one can invest a few bucks to watch the world's highest level of starcraft over multiple months but i still don't see how providing only low quality instead of medium is gonna help them or anybody... the low quality stream is virtually unwatchable so viewer numbers will decrease drastically i suppose, not sure what they aim to achieve with this because i dont think it will lead many people to subscribe that didn't already do that before...
I don't think they get it. In "low" you have to stress your eyes out to see the numbers. Provide us with a "low" where you can still make out the numbers and no one would be complaining.
On June 10 2015 22:22 NasusAndDraven wrote: I never understood why blizzard allowed GOM to give anything less than 1080p for free stream after GSL was given such a big role in the WCS. I mean the quality is free for similar tournaments of LoL and DotA? Is blizzard trying to compete in the eSport scene or have they just gave up?
Blizzard hasn't given up on competing in the esports scene, they've just given up on Starcraft being their flagship game in the esports scene
I'd like to talk with the people at GOMTV who are in charge of strategy deicions like this that (I feel) will just hasten any death knells we will soon be seeing (like this quality change).
Why dont they reach out to the community more on how to stay profitable? They clearly are attempting to, just picking their own methods (like the quality change).
I'm sure if they asked their customers what we wanted, or wanted to pay for we could give good ideas. Better than this strategy, which will probably find us mourning the GSL in less than a year (RIP 2010-2016).
On June 10 2015 22:35 Defessus wrote: I'd like to talk with the people at GOMTV who are in charge of strategy deicions like this that (I feel) will just hasten any death knells we will soon be seeing (like this quality change).
Why dont they reach out to the community more on how to stay profitable? They clearly are attempting to, just picking their own methods (like the quality change).
On June 10 2015 15:56 Nezgar wrote: I've been very disappointed with Tastosis for a while now, lowering the stream quality back to low again will probably seal the deal for me. It's just a string of very very poor developments in recent times when it comes to the GSL: -VoD system gone -Code A gone -Tastosis in a passion slump -a lot of problems with laggy/stuttering streams -low quality
I really can't think of any reason why I should pay for the GSL at the moment. S3SL and SPL are both more entertaining and have a better production quality. But instead of taking this as an opportunity to win back the hearts of the fans GOM decides to slam the door shut. Whatever, I don't even care at this point anymore.
Oh, and this is coming from someone who used to pay for GSL for quite a while...
On June 10 2015 22:22 graNite wrote: i dont even think we should talk about "watching" any more, this has to be the wrong word. you can not do that with this pixel sludge
Indeed on both of these.
I've always said that if they provided at least a HIGH quality free stream, I'd be more willing to support their business model (and no, not just saying that as I have subbed to various streamers/ events etc in the past). I literally cannot and will not support a business model that pisses on the little guy who has to watch a stream that looks like its been put through a blender.
Also will there be much difference? GSL Medium was so bad anyway, it might as well have been low.
But I think it's possible to watch the Korean stream in high quality, so that's what I'll be doing.
Frankly I'd rather they just got rid of the English stream completely, which I never watched regardless of quality due to poor commentary, and just concentrate on providing the Korean stream in a watchable state. If they did that, and actually cleaned up the Korean scene so that I know games were being played legitimately, then I might start watching again, but probably not, WCS destroying the foreign scene and the Korean scene destroying itself has made me lose pretty much all interest in SC2
But I think it's possible to watch the Korean stream in high quality, so that's what I'll be doing.
Frankly I'd rather they just got rid of the English stream completely, which I never watched regardless of quality due to poor commentary, and just concentrate on providing the Korean stream in a watchable state. If they did that, and actually cleaned up the Korean scene so that I know games were being played legitimately, then I might start watching again, but probably not, WCS destroying the foreign scene and the Korean scene destroying itself has made me lose pretty much all interest in SC2
edit - cannot make coherent sentences
How did wcs destroy the foreign scene lol, 2k $ for challenger seems pretty good to me, and it's a goal that even non-pro players can achieve.
How did wcs destroy the foreign scene lol, 2k $ for challenger seems pretty good to me, and it's a goal that even non-pro players can achieve.
go look at the number of different foreign tournaments that you had at the end of WoL and compare it to how many you have today. wcs has consumed pretty much everything, and with the stupid high variance format they have it's not good for players. it's exactly the same problem korea had for years
SPL and SSSL have higher production value, are way more coustomer orientated and have a very good vod system.
When I watch GSL, I use the mobile VOD system to watch their VODs, which are not published to public on their youtube account yet, about 1 sec on my mobile phone and then switch to my pc or tv and watch them from there due to the recent videos in the youtube list.
How did wcs destroy the foreign scene lol, 2k $ for challenger seems pretty good to me, and it's a goal that even non-pro players can achieve.
go look at the number of different foreign tournaments that you had at the end of WoL and compare it to how many you have today. wcs has consumed pretty much everything, and with the stupid high variance format they have it's not good for players. it's exactly the same problem korea had for years
yeah and at end of WoL tournaments got 8 times more viewers + people were expecting it to get bigger. I wonder if that has anything to do with the number of tournaments aswell.
How did wcs destroy the foreign scene lol, 2k $ for challenger seems pretty good to me, and it's a goal that even non-pro players can achieve.
go look at the number of different foreign tournaments that you had at the end of WoL and compare it to how many you have today. wcs has consumed pretty much everything, and with the stupid high variance format they have it's not good for players. it's exactly the same problem korea had for years
Uhm, wasn't SC2, like, at a much earlier point in its steep decline at the end of WoL? You're talking about a period in time when the game was relatively new and popular and people were still optimistic. Is it really surprising that there are fewer tournaments now than there were in 2012? The world has moved on.
On June 10 2015 16:15 str10_hurts wrote: I am ok with that. When I was a student I watched it on low. I got free entertainment! Now that I work I pay for the stream, I save money by not investing in crap programmes on tv.
Lets be honest, the GSL is by far the best SC2 show out there. (and probably the most expensive to produce) Yes other shows have good stuff, but really the GSL is were it is.
the casting is really bad compared to proleague though and this shitting on foreigner fans thing is getting really annoying really quickly.
Do you honestly think that Moonglade and Valdes are better casters than Tasteless and Artosis?
It's so hard for me to believe that this decision actually makes any sense for GOM. What makes them different from literally every other organization, SC2 or otherwise, that makes it so they can't provide a watchable foreign stream?
From the sound of the message it seems like gom really needs that money to continue broadcasting the gsl. If it's out of necessity i will accept that, better than having no gsl at all.
On June 10 2015 16:15 str10_hurts wrote: I am ok with that. When I was a student I watched it on low. I got free entertainment! Now that I work I pay for the stream, I save money by not investing in crap programmes on tv.
Lets be honest, the GSL is by far the best SC2 show out there. (and probably the most expensive to produce) Yes other shows have good stuff, but really the GSL is were it is.
the casting is really bad compared to proleague though and this shitting on foreigner fans thing is getting really annoying really quickly.
Do you honestly think that Moonglade and Valdes are better casters than Tasteless and Artosis?
I think so: Valdes has the voice and the ability to hype, Moonglade the knowledge. What does Tasteless and Artosis have? Game of Throne talks during the games? More Offtopic?
On June 10 2015 23:28 Deathstar wrote: $8 too much for you people? watch the korean stream, watch on low, sub, or don't watch. Why so mad
there is an upcoming big SC2 event in Toronto and its 3 or 4 days long.
the individual day $8 tickets are sold out. the $20 full event passes are still available.
even small amounts of cash seem to be an issue.
$20 for 3 days is amazing.. i can't think of any live event .. even a baseball game which is a 7 day per week sport.. that has tickets priced that low.
On June 10 2015 23:28 Deathstar wrote: $8 too much for you people? watch the korean stream, watch on low, sub, or don't watch. Why so mad
there is an upcoming big SC2 event in Toronto and its 3 or 4 days long.
the individual day $8 tickets are sold out. the $20 full event passes are still available.
even small amounts of cash seem to be an issue.
$20 for 3 days is amazing.. i can't think of any live event .. even a baseball game which is a 7 day per week sport.. that has tickets priced that low.
only the day 2 and 3 (sat and sun) tickets that are sold out, so I think that's more of an issue of local people who work or whatever who can't make it on friday but want to go saturday and sunday
unacceptable imo, i even turned off adblock for a week but they are really spamming commercials its insane, didnt get to se any of the inbetwen game analytics or here the casters make their predictions or strategy analytics. wcs ro32 and 16 had this problem aswell. so i turned it back on. will not watch gsl anymore.
On June 10 2015 16:15 str10_hurts wrote: I am ok with that. When I was a student I watched it on low. I got free entertainment! Now that I work I pay for the stream, I save money by not investing in crap programmes on tv.
Lets be honest, the GSL is by far the best SC2 show out there. (and probably the most expensive to produce) Yes other shows have good stuff, but really the GSL is were it is.
the casting is really bad compared to proleague though and this shitting on foreigner fans thing is getting really annoying really quickly.
Do you honestly think that Moonglade and Valdes are better casters than Tasteless and Artosis?
I think so: Valdes has the voice and the ability to hype, Moonglade the knowledge. What does Tasteless and Artosis have? Game of Throne talks during the games? More Offtopic?
I'll give you Moonglade. I actually thought he and Tasteless or he and Artosis were pretty good. Because Moonglade is often talking more about the game, it really forces his partner to also talk about the game. But Moonglade also has a pretty dark and funny sense of humor sometimes, so he is a pretty good balance. Wolf is not exciting. I can't stand Valdes.
On June 10 2015 17:51 xdevilx2 wrote: If they struggle with money then I doubt that the few extra subs that they will get help. I mean thats maybe 200$ more?
And were did you get those figures?
Regarding the money side of this decision.
Essentially, this move hurts the english viewership only. As far as I know, the majority of sponsors of the GSL do not have the english audience as a target group. So increased english viewership offers nothing to Gom. Therefore its absolutely reasonable to "charge extra" simply because neither GOM nor their sponsors were benefitting from english viewership in the first place.
The only reason to provide a free HD stream is because the additional exposure offers enough value to the sponsors to compensate the provider of the service (which would be the Goms, Dreahhacks, IEMs) to not put up a paywall.
Most reasonable economic "growth models" would advice against this sort of move. But for an organisation with no intent on expanding or bringing in foreign "investment" - aka sponsors - there is really nothing to say against it.
Happy to hear counter arguments :D
On June 10 2015 17:35 Orlok wrote: While I might sound biased, being Korean and getting free HD quality and vods, I think this move is inevitable. While people say GSL is the most prestigious tournament in SC2, thats a thing of the past. Right now, even in the so called better production, better everything S3SL or Proleague, the korean viewership on Youtube and Naver totals just around 4~5000 viewers each, not all of them Korean, or at least that's the average viewer number I've seen so far (If I'm wrong, please correct me). On twitch, it averages around 10,000 viewers and 15000 to 20000 in the finals or important matches. Korean viewership is really not at an all high level despite the current dip in popularity LOL has at the moment. ...
Here you are.
If sponsors don't focus on Foreign audience, then I guess I could make a LOT of money by going teaching business in KR.
On June 10 2015 16:15 str10_hurts wrote: I am ok with that. When I was a student I watched it on low. I got free entertainment! Now that I work I pay for the stream, I save money by not investing in crap programmes on tv.
Lets be honest, the GSL is by far the best SC2 show out there. (and probably the most expensive to produce) Yes other shows have good stuff, but really the GSL is were it is.
the casting is really bad compared to proleague though and this shitting on foreigner fans thing is getting really annoying really quickly.
Do you honestly think that Moonglade and Valdes are better casters than Tasteless and Artosis?
I think so: Valdes has the voice and the ability to hype, Moonglade the knowledge. What does Tasteless and Artosis have? Game of Throne talks during the games? More Offtopic?
It's their style. I'm pretty sure the duo can do what you'd expect from Moonglade and Valdes. They've shown that on events outside of GSL. However, they choose not to. This is good for me. Unless you are really new to sc2, you'd appreciate their sense of humour more than stating what's obvious. It gives the VODs good replay value. Also, tastosis do a good job when they are talking about the game. They frequently talk about what A can do and how B can block it, and with good accuracy whenever they decide to get serious. Moonglade and Valdes however, talk a lot on the fly and therefore without impact. They only state what's there in front of them and don't look/elaborate further like tastosis do. This is due to tastosis' experience of casting sc2 since WoL and I prefer this than sth like "Life's losing another base, he's in trouble!"
Moreover, may I need to remind you that Moonglade and Valdes tend to forget matches that even happened on the same week? They try to think about what's on the meta and what could happen based on recent events and they fail at it. They forget what actually happened, let alone remember the names of players that played the games that week!
And Valdes has the ability to hype? You mean repeat "Huge advantage!", "Huge engagement" up to the point where you can play a drinking game on? Please. Whenever someone uses such a general term all the time, it is to cover one's lack of knowledge of the subject. And if he hypes an engagement as if that's all that mattered (eg shutdown on drop attempt), and deceives the audience that the match is over when it's not, would you call him professional, would call him good at hyping things? No. I'd label him misleading and therefore not useful in the cast.
Now I presume Valdes and Moonglade are both wonderful and cheerful individuals and I expect good things and great professional careers for doing what they're passionate about. However likewise, you have to give Artosis and Tasteless credit for innovating a new style of casting that is both casual yet effective. I've not seen ANYTHING like it in other esports or sports casting, and I hope that the duo goes on and brings new things on the table for the whole world of entertainment to enjoy.
*disclaimer: When I stated "shutdown on drop attempt" as an example, I was not sure if Valdes actually wrongly hyped that. However, everyone's very welcome to disprove what I have stated on Valdes as I have watched plenty of his VODs.
Desperate tactics will not encourage me to do anything. If GoMTV truly is struggling that much, they might as well go bankrupt instead of going through these death throes.
It's a business decision, so it is theirs to make. Watch or don't watch, that is your decision to make.
I want to watch GSL so I will pay - it's not a lot. I want HSC to happen so I donated $50. I want the StarCrafts mod to succeed so I have donated $115 so far.
It is the reality of the situation that SC2 is in today, especially with sponsors. Fortunately for those who will not, or cannot, pay there are other sources of SC2 professional play.
Interesting how literally every other SC2 organization manages to provide free source quality, yet GOM thinks that is a non-profitable business model. Sure a couple of poorly managed organizations managed to go under during the last few years, but ESL/DH are still going strong. It's all about being reasonable with your production costs per viewership.
I completely understand why GSL had to do this, that being said i still think its shit and i dont like it but you can't always get what you want in life
On June 11 2015 00:36 Sogetsu wrote: Wait, what is Low Quality? 480p?
360p I think. And that's pretty watchable.
On a Nokia 3310 maybe. I have a 27" and if i make the stream half the screen I cannot see clearly what's going on there. Plus the audio quality is terrible
not sure what the problem is im going to go as far as saying 80% of all sc2 viewers just listen to it in bg, am i wrong? I barely 'watch' sc2 anymore and believe me i love the game. in fact i cant remember when i last gave the whole series/game my undivided attention. Most of my primary viewing is through replays. now if they give out if you sub . . then im subbed4Life!
On June 11 2015 00:43 midnight999 wrote: pffft, this is dumb. Get ready to lose viewers, gom.
What good are viewers who don't contribute
On twitch you contribute a tiny bit even if you're not watching ads, a bit if you watch ads. Or you sub. Losing viewers means losing a bit of money even if it's adblockers.
On June 11 2015 00:32 DeadByDawn wrote: It's a business decision, so it is theirs to make. Watch or don't watch, that is your decision to make.
I want to watch GSL so I will pay - it's not a lot. I want HSC to happen so I donated $50. I want the StarCrafts mod to succeed so I have donated $115 so far.
It is the reality of the situation that SC2 is in today, especially with sponsors. Fortunately for those who will not, or cannot, pay there are other sources of SC2 professional play.
This. Posters seem to forget that Gom is an organization with bills to pay and not a couple dudes having fun in their spare time. Unless you have deep insight into profitability in the esports world, you probably don't know what you're talking about when you say "this is a terrible move!" etc. Maybe this will succeed, maybe not. What you can be sure of is that many people far more qualified than you have spent a lot of time thinking about it.
As for viewers somehow contributing via ad revenue - I think this was thoroughly debunked when Destiny posted his revenue breakdown. Extrapolating from his viewer numbers and ad revenue from Twitch, it's safe to say Gom makes a couple thousand dollars a month at most from ads. I don't know how you expect this to pay for the production that goes into GSL. Last I checked Tastosis aren't plants and need more than the sun to survive.
and my concerns are regarding the mass amount of dropping viewership, diddnt u gained more with providing medium? now u go back to low, u think any1 beside subscriber is gonna watch? ever1 gonna watch vods-looks at score, i dont mind personally paying for something to support, but after taking a closer look, i wouldnt invest a dime here thats for sure.
from low - medium - low. a company should stick with their decisions at least give some solid reasons or make kickstarter lol, not ever1 can subscribe, ppl got familys, students and so on
but hey enough other content who provide free source quality, rather watch that than.
ps: providing higher production value, by giving every non sub, worse looking stream on twitch. its indeed a radio cast now.
On June 11 2015 00:43 midnight999 wrote: pffft, this is dumb. Get ready to lose viewers, gom.
What good are viewers who don't contribute
Every casual viewer brings in revenue from adds and viewers generate more viewers. I don't watch GSL enough to justify getting a subscription (due to both the broadcast time and my own lack of interest), but at the medium quality stream I managed to watch a few games here and there, generating revenue. Now that it's back to low quality I'll stop doing that again and just read the results on liquipedia. At least there I can make out the numbers on my screen.
On June 10 2015 23:28 Deathstar wrote: $8 too much for you people? watch the korean stream, watch on low, sub, or don't watch. Why so mad
there is an upcoming big SC2 event in Toronto and its 3 or 4 days long.
the individual day $8 tickets are sold out. the $20 full event passes are still available.
even small amounts of cash seem to be an issue.
$20 for 3 days is amazing.. i can't think of any live event .. even a baseball game which is a 7 day per week sport.. that has tickets priced that low.
only the day 2 and 3 (sat and sun) tickets that are sold out, so I think that's more of an issue of local people who work or whatever who can't make it on friday but want to go saturday and sunday
i'm probably only going on saturday and sunday , but i bought the $20 pass to support the event... its only $4 difference any way. 1 guy in the thread said he might not even attend , but he bought tickets just to support a local event.
the dirt cheap ticket prices provide an insight into how careful SC2 esports fans are about spending even the smallest amount of cash.
and we get the anger over GSL charging such a small fee noted by Deathstar. a single 3 hour UFC PPV is $60+ .
This is probably a dumb question but, can someone explain to me how this works exactly? They make it sound like it actually costs them more to operate a higher quality stream. Twitch doesn't charge companies like GOM to broadcast at higher qualities do they? And data is dirt cheap. If that extra data usage really does make the difference in their balance sheets they're in a lot more trouble than they're letting on, no? What am I missing?
On June 10 2015 23:28 Deathstar wrote: $8 too much for you people? watch the korean stream, watch on low, sub, or don't watch. Why so mad
there is an upcoming big SC2 event in Toronto and its 3 or 4 days long.
the individual day $8 tickets are sold out. the $20 full event passes are still available.
even small amounts of cash seem to be an issue.
$20 for 3 days is amazing.. i can't think of any live event .. even a baseball game which is a 7 day per week sport.. that has tickets priced that low.
only the day 2 and 3 (sat and sun) tickets that are sold out, so I think that's more of an issue of local people who work or whatever who can't make it on friday but want to go saturday and sunday
i'm probably only going on saturday and sunday , but i bought the $20 pass to support the event... its only $4 difference any way. 1 guy in the thread said he might not even attend , but he bought tickets just to support a local event.
the dirt cheap ticket prices provide an insight into how careful SC2 esports fans are about spending even the smallest amount of cash.
and we get the anger over GSL charging such a small fee noted by Deathstar. a single 3 hour UFC PPV is $60+ .
I don't watch UFC but I bet if there were tons of other organizations that had fighters with equal skill and better production for little or no money, you would see a lot of people complain about $60 being overpriced too. It's not just about the money, it's about comparing what GSL provides versus what every other esports organization provides.
On June 11 2015 01:10 Thax wrote: This is probably a dumb question but, can someone explain to me how this works exactly? They make it sound like it actually costs them more to operate a higher quality stream. Twitch doesn't charge companies like GOM to broadcast at higher qualities do they? And data is dirt cheap. If that extra data usage really does make the difference in their balance sheets they're in a lot more trouble than they're letting on, no? What am I missing?
I could be wrong but I think they're thinking that by switching from free medium to free low, more people will subscribe in order to offset the production costs of the foreign stream. Whether that occurs or not remains to be seen.
On June 11 2015 01:10 Thax wrote: This is probably a dumb question but, can someone explain to me how this works exactly? They make it sound like it actually costs them more to operate a higher quality stream. Twitch doesn't charge companies like GOM to broadcast at higher qualities do they? And data is dirt cheap. If that extra data usage really does make the difference in their balance sheets they're in a lot more trouble than they're letting on, no? What am I missing?
They think that more people will buy a subscription if the free stream looks like crap.
Come one, end it!! kill the horrible blizzard monster!!! I know a lot of casual players who posted above prefer this format but i hate so much GOM and there still will be SSL.
On June 11 2015 00:43 midnight999 wrote: pffft, this is dumb. Get ready to lose viewers, gom.
What good are viewers who don't contribute
You should go outside in the real world.
On June 11 2015 01:10 Thax wrote: This is probably a dumb question but, can someone explain to me how this works exactly? They make it sound like it actually costs them more to operate a higher quality stream. Twitch doesn't charge companies like GOM to broadcast at higher qualities do they? And data is dirt cheap. If that extra data usage really does make the difference in their balance sheets they're in a lot more trouble than they're letting on, no? What am I missing?
GOM has a lot of different tournaments so with each on of them must a limit in terms of rentability. Also their main broadcast service is their own not twitch. In this industry, every time you stream on twithc you lose money. I think you're missing the part that GOM is a korean broadcoaster first before being international. We often think at the scale of the world but GOM doesnt have any issues here cause blizzard covers their asses but, in korea, it's not the same
On June 10 2015 15:58 doihy wrote: Why are people disappointed in GSL for doing this? If viewership wasn't so low they wouldn't have to do this. And the reason viewership is so low because of blizzard's design.
Maybe they should stream something else then. I like to watch League tournaments.
On June 11 2015 01:10 Thax wrote: This is probably a dumb question but, can someone explain to me how this works exactly? They make it sound like it actually costs them more to operate a higher quality stream. Twitch doesn't charge companies like GOM to broadcast at higher qualities do they? And data is dirt cheap. If that extra data usage really does make the difference in their balance sheets they're in a lot more trouble than they're letting on, no? What am I missing?
They're claiming that they would have substantially higher income from people buying the good quality stream if the only offer a shit quality stream instead of a kinda bad one
How can people be so dumb ? Back in 2010 when GSL had lots of viewers, the quality was always on low. Ever since the quality of the stream has gone up, the number of viewer has declined. So now that they are back on low quality, gom will get as much viewers as they had back in 2010. Hell, some players may even comeback, I never saw Fruitdealer's face in high quality.
On June 11 2015 01:27 NihilisticGod wrote: Meh. GSL used to be my favoure SC2 tournament but now I'd rather Proleague, and oh look it's high quality for free...
On June 10 2015 23:28 Deathstar wrote: $8 too much for you people? watch the korean stream, watch on low, sub, or don't watch. Why so mad
there is an upcoming big SC2 event in Toronto and its 3 or 4 days long.
the individual day $8 tickets are sold out. the $20 full event passes are still available.
even small amounts of cash seem to be an issue.
$20 for 3 days is amazing.. i can't think of any live event .. even a baseball game which is a 7 day per week sport.. that has tickets priced that low.
only the day 2 and 3 (sat and sun) tickets that are sold out, so I think that's more of an issue of local people who work or whatever who can't make it on friday but want to go saturday and sunday
i'm probably only going on saturday and sunday , but i bought the $20 pass to support the event... its only $4 difference any way. 1 guy in the thread said he might not even attend , but he bought tickets just to support a local event.
the dirt cheap ticket prices provide an insight into how careful SC2 esports fans are about spending even the smallest amount of cash.
and we get the anger over GSL charging such a small fee noted by Deathstar. a single 3 hour UFC PPV is $60+ .
Good post. I read "carful" as cheap. All though in my opinion most of the GSL matches tend to be very boring and one sided I still find a season well worth the price. I think though the majority of people who are free viewers given the option of medium resolution or paying even just $5 per season would still watch for free while using adblock. To contribute nothing and expect everything for free is simply not reasonable.
On June 11 2015 01:10 Thax wrote: This is probably a dumb question but, can someone explain to me how this works exactly? They make it sound like it actually costs them more to operate a higher quality stream. Twitch doesn't charge companies like GOM to broadcast at higher qualities do they? And data is dirt cheap. If that extra data usage really does make the difference in their balance sheets they're in a lot more trouble than they're letting on, no? What am I missing?
My guess is that they're treating the english broadcast budget as separate from the korean broadcast budget, so those subs went towards tastosis salary, anyone who works on the english broadcast behind the scenes, etc. With low subs, the english broadcast is losing money, so they said they would rather go back to low quality to induce more subs over cutting the english broadcast completely to save money. It doesn't cost them more to operate a higher quality stream, since it's on twitch. It's just that there's less sub money coming in to pay tastosis, etc.
meh... bad move. This screams to me "we don't want to expand our foreign audience, we just need it to pay for the stream so we can focus on Korea." Which is a fine statement, we are just on the wrong sides of the border. :D
/sarcasm
Remember that it is not "buy this or we cut the English stream completely", since they can't do that if they want to stay an important WCS event.
The English broadcast is indeed separate from the Korean one. The Korean one is sponsored by Korean ads and cable fees, the English one... subs and ads.
Everybody uses adblock and nobody wants to sub (i am a sub since Open Season 1)... so no money. The low move won't work though, so I guess GSL in English is going to end real soon.
On June 11 2015 01:10 Thax wrote: This is probably a dumb question but, can someone explain to me how this works exactly? They make it sound like it actually costs them more to operate a higher quality stream. Twitch doesn't charge companies like GOM to broadcast at higher qualities do they? And data is dirt cheap. If that extra data usage really does make the difference in their balance sheets they're in a lot more trouble than they're letting on, no? What am I missing?
My guess is that they're treating the english broadcast budget as separate from the korean broadcast budget, so those subs went towards tastosis salary, anyone who works on the english broadcast behind the scenes, etc. With low subs, the english broadcast is losing money, so they said they would rather go back to low quality to induce more subs over cutting the english broadcast completely to save money. It doesn't cost them more to operate a higher quality stream, since it's on twitch. It's just that there's less sub money coming in to pay tastosis, etc.
I think that is quite a bit off. It is probably more or less that the companies who pay for advertising on GOM, are typically only going to pay for Korean viewers. Because they actually get views the korean viewers who view for free and watch ads are actually gaining gom money. Meanwhile the free foreign viewers do not contribute in the same fashion. The built in ads for whatever lets say Hot6 don't really mean much to foreign fans. After that most people have ad block. After that most don't pay the subscription. So, GOM receives very little from having foreign viewership, so this move basically is an attempt to make the foreign fan pay for a subscription if they want decent quality. Honestly though a better attempt to get the foreign fans to contribute with ad revenue would be to have a separate stream with separate advertisers that can appeal to the foreign audience. Like make Nick slam a redbull before every series -_-
On June 11 2015 01:21 Cazimirbzh wrote: Come one, end it!! kill the horrible blizzard monster!!! I know a lot of casual players who posted above prefer this format but i hate so much GOM and there still will be SSL.
On June 11 2015 00:43 midnight999 wrote: pffft, this is dumb. Get ready to lose viewers, gom.
What good are viewers who don't contribute
You should go outside in the real world.
Come one, end it!! kill the horrible blizzard monster!!! I know a lot of casual players who posted above prefer this format but i hate so much GOM and there still will be SSL.
i'm probably only going on saturday and sunday , but i bought the $20 pass to support the event... its only $4 difference any way. 1 guy in the thread said he might not even attend , but he bought tickets just to support a local event.
the dirt cheap ticket prices provide an insight into how careful SC2 esports fans are about spending even the smallest amount of cash.
and we get the anger over GSL charging such a small fee noted by Deathstar. a single 3 hour UFC PPV is $60+ .
Good for you. I contributed to Destiny's starcraft 2 competition even though I knew that I had no time to watch - it was only $20 but the SC2 scene is important to me so I will help when I can.
GSL has bills to pay. If they drop non-contributing viewers (and don't give me the crap about ads) then I do not see what they lose. They should release some key exciting matches in high resolution still so that people can understand what they get if they do subscribe.
On June 11 2015 01:36 Growiel wrote: The English broadcast is indeed separate from the Korean one. The Korean one is sponsored by Korean ads and cable fees, the English one... subs and ads.
Everybody uses adblock and nobody wants to sub (i am a sub since Open Season 1)... so no money. The low move won't work though, so I guess GSL in English is going to end real soon.
I don't think that nobody wants to sub. When I look at SSL, SPL, WCS chats in sub-only mode it's filled with people talking. And they still have high quality for free. How much increase in subs will this move bring? Maybe something like 10%. I'd say most people who didn't sub before will adapt and watch in low quality.
I subscribe to GSL whenver I know for a fact I can watch on a wednesday or Friday without fault. I knew I couldn't this season, I really enjoy GSL, but there's no way for me to enjoy this in such mind numbingly awful quality. You can't even see zerglings man. Even if you do subscribe you're stuck with high quality, source quality is like even more dosh, at least it was like that last season, that is really offensive imo.
What do you guys do with your lives that you cant even afford a few dollars a month to support a game you love? GOM is not greedy, you guys are either cheap or gave up on SC2.
On June 11 2015 00:43 midnight999 wrote: pffft, this is dumb. Get ready to lose viewers, gom.
What good are viewers who don't contribute
I don't know, since we live in the 21st century, things like popularity, brand image and reputation? Let's imagine a scenario, making two assumptions : (1) GOM and thus GSL are still around by LotV and (2) LotV is, at least for the first few months, enough of a success that it draws in players who haven't followed much (or at all) the pro scene in WoL and HotS. What will these viewers do, when seeing two leagues, with a similar format, with the same players, broadcasted at the same time of the day, but one in Low quality while the other is in free Source? Do you really think that the major part of the viewerbase, the people who don't have the time or will or money to watch all the KR SC2 available, will watch GSL instead of SSL? Who wins? SSL and literally everyone except GOM. Who loses? GOM.
On June 11 2015 01:36 Growiel wrote: The English broadcast is indeed separate from the Korean one. The Korean one is sponsored .... the English one... subs and ads.
just subs and ads is not a sustainable business model.
On June 11 2015 01:59 swag_bro wrote: What do you guys do with your lives that you cant even afford a few dollars a month to support a game you love? GOM is not greedy, you guys are either cheap or gave up on SC2.
I somewhat agree with you, however in this age every tournament ever has free medium and up, most of them have free source. And there's even a direct competitor in SSL which does as well. So it is natural to expect it.
My name is Roman and I'm the head of my personal operations.
Thanks for letting me know that I shouldn't turn on your stream ever again. Atleast until you learn how to monetize your product, why streaming Code A is a must and why forcing people to sub just to make the content you produce actually watchable and enjoyable. Your decisions are built on a 2002 premise and make no actual sense in the grand scheme of things.
On June 11 2015 00:43 midnight999 wrote: pffft, this is dumb. Get ready to lose viewers, gom.
What good are viewers who don't contribute
Despite how retarded that question is, if that was the case, then why would GOM bother stream their content at all to the "viewers who don't contribute"?
What are people bitching about? It's only $8 a month. You cant even get a movie ticket or a meal at mcdonalds for that cheap anymore. Lets keep some perspective here people.
On June 11 2015 00:43 midnight999 wrote: pffft, this is dumb. Get ready to lose viewers, gom.
What good are viewers who don't contribute
Despite how retarded that question is, if that was the case, then why would GOM bother stream their content at all to the "viewers who don't contribute"?
They don't, hence all the whining from viewers who don't contribute.
On June 11 2015 03:16 ElMeanYo wrote: What are people bitching about? It's only $8 a month. You cant even get a movie ticket or a meal at mcdonalds for that cheap anymore. Lets keep some perspective here people.
I think to understand the problematic here you have to compare the gsl stream to others. SSL has the same players, arguably better production and with Tastosis losing more and more passion each day probably better casters as well. Their stream is available for free in 720p and on azubu even in 1080p. While maybe not having the same calibre of players, the other points also apply for almost if not all other big sc2 tournaments. So why would people pay for something that is no longer the best or exclusive?
I actually am subscribed to GomTV myself as well don't get me wrong but I can understand why people are upset about this. Heck, in all major esports the really good streams are available for free in high quality. Why can't gom adapt?
Hey guys, I have an idea, actually do something! You know, instead of letting this type of garbage happen all around the world, every day with almost every single business who likes to see how much they can cheat their viewers before they can revolt, we boycott gsl, and tell them that if they don't give us medium quality, we won't invest our time into watching their product when they couldn't care less about our viewing experience.
newsflash, GSL, SSL and Proleague are infinitely better then gsl right now and treating your customers like shit won't make you more money. not in the civilized, western world. or should I say it shouldn't if we actually took the time to monetarily punish those who try. Look what happened to steams payed mods, we shoved them back up their ass. this is what we should do with gsl too.
Pardon my hostility, but this is how it should be. goodbye GSL.
On June 11 2015 01:59 swag_bro wrote: What do you guys do with your lives that you cant even afford a few dollars a month to support a game you love? GOM is not greedy, you guys are either cheap or gave up on SC2.
I am not anymore part of the sc2 fanbase, but do ocassionally watch some gsl or wcs. For people like me, the likelihood of tuning in drops with every decision like this. Especially people who play more than one game are affected. I play some lol, and watch vods of lck. When deciding what to watch, the added value of watching such a vod or livestream is compared to the added value of watching a gsl live stream, which obviously goes down when stream quality goes down. So in the end, this is bad for gsl viewership (note, the casual viewers, not the hardcore viewers).
But I don't feel entitled to it. Most casual viewers will not care, and just watch other games or tournaments. It feels as though gom is trying to get more cash at the cost of accessibility, which seems to me a very pessimistic mindset. And that mindset saddens me greatly.
Your reasoning is fine for hardcore viewers: people who have invested heavily in sc2, and continue to do so. I am a cheap person, and I'd argue most casual viewers are. 'If you quit watching because of this, you're just cheap or you don't truly love sc2' does not change the reality of people's behaviour being influenced by these decisions.
Seems like a lot of entitled people in this thread. I don't understand why people are so mad about this? The fact that there even exists a free stream I think is great, they don't really owe us that much, do they? The subscription is not at all expensive, and if people care enough about GSL and starcraft, they should subscribe and support that.
I have a feeling a majority of people watch with adblock on anyway, so if you watch it in medium, low, or not at all, won't change anything for Gom. You're just being a freeloader at that point that is complaining that the free stuff you're getting isn't good enough for you, while giving nothing back in return. It's no surprise SC2 is going through a tough time, so without the support of fans, there's nothing they can do to keep it alive. And this thread seems like a good example of how non-supportive people are these days.
With that said, GOM seriously needs to step up their game in terms of what they are providing to the public. Their VOD services are pretty much non-existant, the stream can have its issues, the casters just don't seem to care enough about starcraft, and there just isn't enough meat there for me to actually get annoyed that people aren't subscribing... I can understand both sides of the coin here, so both Gom and the fans seriously need to re-evaluate what they're providing to the scene in order for us to take SC2 forward.
On June 10 2015 20:41 oOKamuOo wrote: Thanks to addblocker .... if this wouldn't exist we had a high quality stream...
If intrusive ads for stuff I'm not remotely interested in had not existed, companies might have found a better way to stay profitable instead of being lazy and relying on ads.
so many silly people here pissed at a company wanting to make money. insane for people to think that a company should take a loss to provide high quality content. grow up.
On June 10 2015 20:41 oOKamuOo wrote: Thanks to addblocker .... if this wouldn't exist we had a high quality stream...
If intrusive ads for stuff I'm not remotely interested in had not existed, companies might have found a better way to stay profitable instead of being lazy and relying on ads.
And how exactly is a company going to be profitable by providing you free content in pristine form without using ads? Stop feeling so entitled.
On June 11 2015 03:50 RaymondFish wrote: so many silly people here pissed at a company wanting to make money. insane for people to think that a company should take a loss to provide high quality content. grow up.
what's fucking insane is that this is 2015 and the best stream that anyone outside of Korea can get is in fucking 240p.
240 fucking p.
Meanwhile the koreans get free fucking HD. GOM is just saying at this point, fuck you customers we want money. Pisses me the fuck off. I won't even be watching the GSL finals at this point, I'll wait for a VOD on youtube. Fuck GOM. Everyone else - WCS, Proleague, S2SL, Olimoleague, even the fucking Kappa Starleague hosted by nathanias is giving at the very least free 480p. For GSL to even consider streaming what was once considered the most prestigious tournament in all of Starcraft in 240p is a massive insult to all the foreign viewers.
Blizzard, I know you read teamliquid. STOP SUPPORTING GOM if this is how they will treat their customers. this is unacceptable.
On June 11 2015 03:50 RaymondFish wrote: so many silly people here pissed at a company wanting to make money. insane for people to think that a company should take a loss to provide high quality content. grow up.
if the content is so high quality then people should already be subscribing, no? i could gladly take a shit on your lawn and tell you it's "high quality" and you should pay me for it
i think it's you who's using childish logic: you're saying people have no right to complain because "companies have a right to make money, blah blah blah." sure, we all know that profit organizations aim for profit. the issue is not "boo hoo, i don't want to pay for things!" it's "is it really worth paying x amount for y feature?" there are millions of things i can spend money on in the world and millions of ways to have fun. starcraft is not that essential to my life. if i think the deal for GSL sucks, i'm going to continue being a free viewer and spend my money elsewhere instead. it's not because i'm a 15-year-old with no job; it's because i don't care for the deal. being a for-profit company doesn't mean just charging people money for features and watching the cash roll in, it actually means competing with other companies for people who have plenty of other options and places to spend their money
sure, some people react with childish or silly or exaggerated wording. yeah there are those few people who start talking about esports passion and boycotts and shit, and yeah that's all over the top. people are doing that on both sides of the argument but that's not representative of the core issue here. is the deal good or not? is the money worth it or not? is it good business or not? and it's not. it's a bad deal and people are calling them on it.
On June 10 2015 15:34 -Archangel- wrote: At medium quality I spent few hours watching games. At low quality before that I spent 5 minutes watching. Now I will spend 0 minutes
Yup pretty much :/
How can you possibly know that? Do you have access to the numbers? Are you a business and broadcast expert?
GOM has based this decision on math with the data they. And done so to maximize their profit. How can you think you, as an outsider, have a better idea of what is best?
You can dissagree with the decision, but it's from a viewer or moral perspective. Not a business one.
On June 10 2015 15:42 NovemberstOrm wrote: Low Quality isn't going to be any better for business, in fact it'll be worse. Especially with the SSL.
On June 10 2015 15:34 -Archangel- wrote: At medium quality I spent few hours watching games. At low quality before that I spent 5 minutes watching. Now I will spend 0 minutes
Yup pretty much :/
How can you possibly know that? Do you have access to the numbers? Are you a business and broadcast expert?
GOM has based this decision on math with the data they. And done so to maximize their profit. How can you think you, as an outsider, have a better idea of what is best?
You can dissagree with the decision, but it's from a viewer or moral perspective. Not a business one.
by your logic no business would ever fail. you're just blindly assuming that they have the right read on their audience and are interpreting all their data intelligently because what? because they're a business? do you remember "new coke"? if coke can screw up with their audience i'm pretty sure GSL can lol
On June 10 2015 15:42 NovemberstOrm wrote: Low Quality isn't going to be any better for business, in fact it'll be worse. Especially with the SSL.
On June 10 2015 15:34 -Archangel- wrote: At medium quality I spent few hours watching games. At low quality before that I spent 5 minutes watching. Now I will spend 0 minutes
Yup pretty much :/
How can you possibly know that? Do you have access to the numbers? Are you a business and broadcast expert?
GOM has based this decision on math with the data they. And done so to maximize their profit. How can you think you, as an outsider, have a better idea of what is best?
You can dissagree with the decision, but it's from a viewer or moral perspective. Not a business one.
by your logic no business would ever fail. you're just blindly assuming that they have the right read on their audience and are interpreting all their data intelligently because what? because they're a business? do you remember "new coke"? if coke can screw up with their audience i'm pretty sure GSL can lol
Well ... that reminds me ... did they ever did a good business decision concerning the foreign-scene? Maybe Korea vs rest of the World ?
On June 11 2015 01:59 swag_bro wrote: What do you guys do with your lives that you cant even afford a few dollars a month to support a game you love? GOM is not greedy, you guys are either cheap or gave up on SC2.
I am not anymore part of the sc2 fanbase, but do ocassionally watch some gsl or wcs. For people like me, the likelihood of tuning in drops with every decision like this. Especially people who play more than one game are affected. I play some lol, and watch vods of lck. When deciding what to watch, the added value of watching such a vod or livestream is compared to the added value of watching a gsl live stream, which obviously goes down when stream quality goes down. So in the end, this is bad for gsl viewership (note, the casual viewers, not the hardcore viewers).
But I don't feel entitled to it. Most casual viewers will not care, and just watch other games or tournaments. It feels as though gom is trying to get more cash at the cost of accessibility, which seems to me a very pessimistic mindset. And that mindset saddens me greatly.
Your reasoning is fine for hardcore viewers: people who have invested heavily in sc2, and continue to do so. I am a cheap person, and I'd argue most casual viewers are. 'If you quit watching because of this, you're just cheap or you don't truly love sc2' does not change the reality of people's behaviour being influenced by these decisions.
Omagad. That's actually totally THE point.
I'm an occasionnal viewer, which means that I don't watch a lot of SC2 since I dont play it a lot. However, I do play BW, LoL. So i watch streams about that.
And, guess what ? All free Source. I do run into SC for big events, SSL, GSL, PL, IEM, ... anytime I can. And, guess what, I also happen to watch some CS GO from time to time, apart from LoL and BW. GSL is the ONLY one to provide 240p for free. All other is at least 720p + VoD.
So. Why the hell should I bother watching 240p GSL and paying for it, where litterally EVERY other thing is just 720p free ?
Plus, to anyone saying that a company has to make money blablabla. Every other streams that are giving us 720p for free aren't just 2-months-into-vanishing-cause-they-got-out-of-money things, you know.
That just the fucking first thing you learn about business. If you don't improve while your concurrents do,you just die.
PS : even tho I can watch it for free on OGaming And at decent hours. Which is nice )
My knee jerk reaction is to tell them to go fuck themselves, but in an environment where 80% of viewers have ad block enabled while they watch it's hard not to feel like the community brings this on itself.
On June 10 2015 20:41 oOKamuOo wrote: Thanks to addblocker .... if this wouldn't exist we had a high quality stream...
If intrusive ads for stuff I'm not remotely interested in had not existed, companies might have found a better way to stay profitable instead of being lazy and relying on ads.
And how exactly is a company going to be profitable by providing you free content in pristine form without using ads? Stop feeling so entitled.
Watching on my tablet I get hit with commercials at least once (usually twice) during a 10-20 min game. I am always hit with a commercial during winners interviews. If I had my computer I can use adblock I wouldn't be missing the content I'm interested in. This is the problem mystream and ustream had too and why twitch was awesome for a while. Spam commercials during breaks, but please not during content.
On June 11 2015 04:14 ZeromuS wrote: My main question related to this is how can so many other streams offer things for free without using the "low" quality bait as it were.
Is GOM the only one willing to take this stance, or are they operating so much less efficiently than the other companies that they need to do this?
Or did they not nurture their foreign audience to attract foreign sponsors to take care of some or most expenses for the stream? ... sorry but GOM sucks when it comes to foreign-scene and business models. edit: and in early 2011 they could have attracted a lot of western sponsors I guess. And not displaying viewer-numbers back then was also pretty awkward.
On June 11 2015 04:12 robopork wrote: My knee jerk reaction is to tell them to go fuck themselves, but in an environment where 80% of viewers have ad block enabled while they watch it's hard not to feel like the community brings this on itself.
The "business" model right now on twitch is not "i make dollars with ads" it is "i have viewers who subscribe/donate". Why don't they for GOM? Because they hide behind a paywall and fail to make attractive enough content. (or lower their price -_-)
On June 11 2015 04:12 robopork wrote: My knee jerk reaction is to tell them to go fuck themselves, but in an environment where 80% of viewers have ad block enabled while they watch it's hard not to feel like the community brings this on itself.
if people don't want to subscribe or watch ads and the company can't make enough money to operate that doesn't make it "the community's fault," it just means the venture deserves to fail. GSL is either GSL or it's nothing whereas my money is still the same money even if i spend it elsewhere. the consumer's willingness or unwillingness to spend is judge jury and executioner and we don't really owe them anything tbh. that's how the entertainment industry works, if you don't satisfy people they're gone
On June 11 2015 04:14 ZeromuS wrote: My main question related to this is how can so many other streams offer things for free without using the "low" quality bait as it were.
Is GOM the only one willing to take this stance, or are they operating so much less efficiently than the other companies that they need to do this?
OGN's Proleague is a common comparison in this thread. The problem is Proleague is on TV and can make enough of Korean Television that international money won't make or break them. GSL must not be making enough from the Korean audience and the obvious thing to me is the lack of television and television level sponsors. GSL must also be having trouble building relationship seeing as SBENU only has a hand in PL and not the GSL. Of course the GSL vs OGN loyalty among koreans/korean employees/korean sponsors is always there too.
On June 10 2015 15:42 NovemberstOrm wrote: Low Quality isn't going to be any better for business, in fact it'll be worse. Especially with the SSL.
On June 10 2015 15:34 -Archangel- wrote: At medium quality I spent few hours watching games. At low quality before that I spent 5 minutes watching. Now I will spend 0 minutes
Yup pretty much :/
How can you possibly know that? Do you have access to the numbers? Are you a business and broadcast expert?
GOM has based this decision on math with the data they. And done so to maximize their profit. How can you think you, as an outsider, have a better idea of what is best?
You can dissagree with the decision, but it's from a viewer or moral perspective. Not a business one.
by your logic no business would ever fail. you're just blindly assuming that they have the right read on their audience and are interpreting all their data intelligently because what? because they're a business? do you remember "new coke"? if coke can screw up with their audience i'm pretty sure GSL can lol
No. You don't know how logic works then. By my logic they base their business choices on the data they have. Which they all do. Where as this whole thread is based on feelings.
I am not saying it's not a mistake. I am saying it's their choice based on their data and analysis. Trying to arguy against the with feeling is pretty much the definition of extreme stupidity.
Who knows... This might be their last efford to try and save a sinking ship. If that is the case, would you still dissagree? If this is their only way to save GSL?
No. You don't know how logic works then. By my logic they base their business choices on the data they have. Which they all do. Where as this whole thread is based on feelings.
Ok. So you're basically saying that the customers feelings doesn't weight against a company decision done with datas.
What some are saying in there is that a company goes NOWHERE if it just keep going against the customers. Hum. Not nowhere. Just right in the wall. That's all.
Maybe it'll work just enought for them. I'm perfectly fine for that. Or maybe it'll not. And i'm perfectly fine with that also.
That's how it works. There is an offer, there is a demand. If the offer is high, then those who just don't do quality offers get knocked out.
I don't get why all these casual viewers are bitching. 'Oh I am a casual viewer so I don't want to pay for shit but I want to watch SSL, WCS, GSL, ...'. There is plenty of free content for casual viewers so go and watch those and skip the paywall ones - you don't have time to watch them all anyway do you, Mr Casual.
The business model of GSL is up to them and them alone. Just be glad that other companies can make enough in other ways to keep the freetards happy.
That's really kind of saddening, doubt that move is going to save GSL if they're really in as deep as this suggests.
On June 11 2015 04:51 DeadByDawn wrote: I don't get why all these casual viewers are bitching. 'Oh I am a casual viewer so I don't want to pay for shit but I want to watch SSL, WCS, GSL, ...'. There is plenty of free content for casual viewers so go and watch those and skip the paywall ones - you don't have time to watch them all anyway do you, Mr Casual.
The business model of GSL is up to them and them alone. Just be glad that other companies can make enough in other ways to keep the freetards happy.
Derision isn't a valid way of arguing. The community works as it will and it's up to GOM to pick up on that, not the other way around. If there's not enough people that want to pay for good quality GSL then there's not enough and GOM as a business will have to adapt to that reality.
No. You don't know how logic works then. By my logic they base their business choices on the data they have. Which they all do. Where as this whole thread is based on feelings.
Ok. So you're basically saying that the customers feelings doesn't weight against a company decision done with datas.
What some are saying in there is that a company goes NOWHERE if it just keep going against the customers. Hum. Not nowhere. Just right in the wall. That's all.
Maybe it'll work just enought for them. I'm perfectly fine for that. Or maybe it'll not. And i'm perfectly fine with that also.
That's how it works. There is an offer, there is a demand. If the offer is high, then those who just don't do quality offers get knocked out.
Just time will tell.
The feeling weigh in if they will cost the company money. Otherwise not no.
If people get pissed enough to boykot, their assessment has obviously been wrong, But their best guess is that this is not going to happen. Or they wouldn't have done this.
No. You don't know how logic works then. By my logic they base their business choices on the data they have. Which they all do. Where as this whole thread is based on feelings.
Ok. So you're basically saying that the customers feelings doesn't weight against a company decision done with datas.
What some are saying in there is that a company goes NOWHERE if it just keep going against the customers. Hum. Not nowhere. Just right in the wall. That's all.
Maybe it'll work just enought for them. I'm perfectly fine for that. Or maybe it'll not. And i'm perfectly fine with that also.
That's how it works. There is an offer, there is a demand. If the offer is high, then those who just don't do quality offers get knocked out.
Just time will tell.
The feeling weigh in if they will cost the company money. Otherwise not no.
If people get pissed enough to boykot, their assessment has obviously been wrong, But their best guess is that this is not going to happen. Or they wouldn't have done this.
Yep, totally agree. That's why I just said that last line.
Remember zoozoo bubble and the crazy audience engagement that happened with those ads? Gom apparently doesn't because they've never really done western targeted advertising unless it's fallen in their lap.
What gets me unhappy... is the fact that even subscribing is a poor experience. Their ad periods are many minutes in length, with horrible music (swearing and inappropriate content included), loud (repeating) ads, and I can't feel comfortable inviting most friends or family to watch with me.
No wonder they are having problems getting people to watch or subscribe. The bought experience is really low!!
Best marketing strategy i've ever seen. Offer a bad service to your client so he'll pay for better quality. GENIUS!!! GOM's owners should give lectures at universities to pass on this awesome marketing tactics.
On June 10 2015 15:33 Dodgin wrote: Wow that is really bad news, GSL global stream is that unprofitable that they have to incentivize subscribing that much.
I think the truth is that the entire SC2 scene is unprofitable without a freemium or PPV-based viewing model, which is what Blizzard should consider when reforming the game and its scene.
See for example: The demise of MLG, IPL, NASL and the fact that WCS is most likely an unprofitable loss-leader for a game that only makes its money from box sales unlike LoL, DOTA 2 or SMITE.
On June 11 2015 00:43 midnight999 wrote: pffft, this is dumb. Get ready to lose viewers, gom.
What good are viewers who don't contribute
Despite how retarded that question is, if that was the case, then why would GOM bother stream their content at all to the "viewers who don't contribute"?
They don't, hence all the whining from viewers who don't contribute.
You really think viewers who don't directly pay GOM DON'T contribute anything? You sound like a business owner who only cares about money and I've seen plenty of businesses, big and small, fail because of this mindset.
On June 11 2015 04:14 ZeromuS wrote: My main question related to this is how can so many other streams offer things for free without using the "low" quality bait as it were.
Is GOM the only one willing to take this stance, or are they operating so much less efficiently than the other companies that they need to do this?
OGN's Proleague is a common comparison in this thread. The problem is Proleague is on TV and can make enough of Korean Television that international money won't make or break them. GSL must not be making enough from the Korean audience and the obvious thing to me is the lack of television and television level sponsors. GSL must also be having trouble building relationship seeing as SBENU only has a hand in PL and not the GSL. Of course the GSL vs OGN loyalty among koreans/korean employees/korean sponsors is always there too.
Is SSL also broadcast on TV? I was under the impression that they were online only, and they don't have to stream only in low.
What this all boils down to is that global subs is a small trickle of income for GOM, it wont make or break them. The GSL themselves say its no use investing more in global market. Meaning the return is small.
If they dont make a lot of money from us anyway then why focus the business plan for survival on getting money from us. Pissing the customers off isnt clever, GOM knows this, this is why they dont do this to the korean community. They do it to us because they dont care about our backlash or about us as consumers because the revenue we give them is too small for them to care if it disappears.
This pisses people off, they know what they are doing, thats why they dont do it to the korean scene. But they dont give a rats ass about the global audiance and therefore they treat us like dirt compared to koreans.
On June 11 2015 04:14 ZeromuS wrote: My main question related to this is how can so many other streams offer things for free without using the "low" quality bait as it were.
Is GOM the only one willing to take this stance, or are they operating so much less efficiently than the other companies that they need to do this?
OGN's Proleague is a common comparison in this thread. The problem is Proleague is on TV and can make enough of Korean Television that international money won't make or break them. GSL must not be making enough from the Korean audience and the obvious thing to me is the lack of television and television level sponsors. GSL must also be having trouble building relationship seeing as SBENU only has a hand in PL and not the GSL. Of course the GSL vs OGN loyalty among koreans/korean employees/korean sponsors is always there too.
Is SSL also broadcast on TV? I was under the impression that they were online only, and they don't have to stream only in low.
On June 11 2015 04:14 ZeromuS wrote: My main question related to this is how can so many other streams offer things for free without using the "low" quality bait as it were.
Is GOM the only one willing to take this stance, or are they operating so much less efficiently than the other companies that they need to do this?
OGN's Proleague is a common comparison in this thread. The problem is Proleague is on TV and can make enough of Korean Television that international money won't make or break them. GSL must not be making enough from the Korean audience and the obvious thing to me is the lack of television and television level sponsors. GSL must also be having trouble building relationship seeing as SBENU only has a hand in PL and not the GSL. Of course the GSL vs OGN loyalty among koreans/korean employees/korean sponsors is always there too.
Is SSL also broadcast on TV? I was under the impression that they were online only, and they don't have to stream only in low.
Forgot to mention that. SSL is ogn and sbenu backed iirc so big money.
On June 11 2015 04:14 ZeromuS wrote: My main question related to this is how can so many other streams offer things for free without using the "low" quality bait as it were.
Is GOM the only one willing to take this stance, or are they operating so much less efficiently than the other companies that they need to do this?
OGN's Proleague is a common comparison in this thread. The problem is Proleague is on TV and can make enough of Korean Television that international money won't make or break them. GSL must not be making enough from the Korean audience and the obvious thing to me is the lack of television and television level sponsors. GSL must also be having trouble building relationship seeing as SBENU only has a hand in PL and not the GSL. Of course the GSL vs OGN loyalty among koreans/korean employees/korean sponsors is always there too.
Is SSL also broadcast on TV? I was under the impression that they were online only, and they don't have to stream only in low.
Forgot to mention that. SSL is ogn and sbenu backed iirc so big money.
SSL is SPOTV, afaik OGN has nothing to do with it. Also both SC2 Starleagues are sponsored by SBENU.
On June 11 2015 04:14 ZeromuS wrote: My main question related to this is how can so many other streams offer things for free without using the "low" quality bait as it were.
Is GOM the only one willing to take this stance, or are they operating so much less efficiently than the other companies that they need to do this?
OGN's Proleague is a common comparison in this thread. The problem is Proleague is on TV and can make enough of Korean Television that international money won't make or break them. GSL must not be making enough from the Korean audience and the obvious thing to me is the lack of television and television level sponsors. GSL must also be having trouble building relationship seeing as SBENU only has a hand in PL and not the GSL. Of course the GSL vs OGN loyalty among koreans/korean employees/korean sponsors is always there too.
Is SSL also broadcast on TV? I was under the impression that they were online only, and they don't have to stream only in low.
Forgot to mention that. SSL is ogn and sbenu backed iirc so big money.
SSL is SPOTV, afaik OGN has nothing to do with it. Also both SC2 Starleagues are sponsored by SBENU.
Lol. I know nothing about the sponsors then. Ignore my previous comments :D
First, can we stop referring to people viewing the stream for free with ad block as customers. The customers are the people giving them money, which are they sponsors and subscribers. Free viewers are the product they offer to the sponsors at best, but not even that if the sponsor is a Koran company, aiming to increase sales in Korea.
The income from adds on twitch must be ridiculously low, seeing how few hours per month they stream, and how little you get per viewer per hour.
On June 11 2015 04:14 ZeromuS wrote: My main question related to this is how can so many other streams offer things for free without using the "low" quality bait as it were.
Is GOM the only one willing to take this stance, or are they operating so much less efficiently than the other companies that they need to do this?
I think they are the only ones doing it because they are the only ones that can do it successfully. I think any tournament would do it if they would get as many subscribers as gom. But they wouldn't, so they stick to what they can get, which is some sponsor and then trying to get as many free viewers they can to report back to the sponsors.
On June 11 2015 04:59 mikumegurine wrote: Tastetosis cant be paid less, they have families to support
besides, they are the SUPERSTARS of this industry
everything should revolve around them
you dont give Lebron James a paycut, you give him whatever he wants
Tastetosis are the king
Except like Lebron this season. They've been carried by Matthew Dellevadova (Moonglade/Wolf/Valdes/Whoever they've brought in when Tastosis aren't available)
On June 11 2015 01:35 schaf wrote: meh... bad move. This screams to me "we don't want to expand our foreign audience, we just need it to pay for the stream so we can focus on Korea." Which is a fine statement, we are just on the wrong sides of the border. :D
/sarcasm
Remember that it is not "buy this or we cut the English stream completely", since they can't do that if they want to stay an important WCS event.
Wasn't a requirement for WCS to have a certain quality stream?
On June 11 2015 01:35 schaf wrote: meh... bad move. This screams to me "we don't want to expand our foreign audience, we just need it to pay for the stream so we can focus on Korea." Which is a fine statement, we are just on the wrong sides of the border. :D
/sarcasm
Remember that it is not "buy this or we cut the English stream completely", since they can't do that if they want to stay an important WCS event.
Wasn't a requirement for WCS to have a certain quality stream?
Once again, GSL is special and does not follow the same rules.
Ugh... This decision makes me sad and I see nothing good coming of it. I see no cost difference between low and medium or even high for that matter. I dont think ive even seen a community stream with less than high. Many people are just going to say "f*ck it" and not watch while some on the other hand will force themselves to sub, and judging from the comments so far there seems to be many more "f*ck it"s than subs. Also their reasoning behind it doesnt give me any confidence.
Starcraft 2 seems to be holding its own, but it feels fragile. I don't see this helping GSL gain more viewership, just milking what it has. It might work in the short run but I don't see it helping in the long. Starleague on the other hand seems to be gaining a lot more popularity and to me seems like a much better business plan.
On June 11 2015 01:35 schaf wrote: meh... bad move. This screams to me "we don't want to expand our foreign audience, we just need it to pay for the stream so we can focus on Korea." Which is a fine statement, we are just on the wrong sides of the border. :D
/sarcasm
Remember that it is not "buy this or we cut the English stream completely", since they can't do that if they want to stay an important WCS event.
Wasn't a requirement for WCS to have a certain quality stream?
They somehow bypassed it with a deal with Blizzard I assume. But Bliz won't tolerate them shutting out English viewers, that would be outright stupid.
On June 11 2015 01:35 schaf wrote: meh... bad move. This screams to me "we don't want to expand our foreign audience, we just need it to pay for the stream so we can focus on Korea." Which is a fine statement, we are just on the wrong sides of the border. :D
/sarcasm
Remember that it is not "buy this or we cut the English stream completely", since they can't do that if they want to stay an important WCS event.
Wasn't a requirement for WCS to have a certain quality stream?
No, GSL and SSL are allowed not to follow WCS handbook 2015.
On June 10 2015 15:33 Dodgin wrote: Wow that is really bad news, GSL global stream is that unprofitable that they have to incentivize subscribing that much.
I think the truth is that the entire SC2 scene is unprofitable without a freemium or PPV-based viewing model, which is what Blizzard should consider when reforming the game and its scene.
See for example: The demise of MLG, IPL, NASL and the fact that WCS is most likely an unprofitable loss-leader for a game that only makes its money from box sales unlike LoL, DOTA 2 or SMITE.
I think MLG experimented with a PPV model for SC2 a while ago but I don't think it turned out as well as they hoped.
On June 10 2015 15:33 Dodgin wrote: Wow that is really bad news, GSL global stream is that unprofitable that they have to incentivize subscribing that much.
I think the truth is that the entire SC2 scene is unprofitable without a freemium or PPV-based viewing model, which is what Blizzard should consider when reforming the game and its scene.
See for example: The demise of MLG, IPL, NASL and the fact that WCS is most likely an unprofitable loss-leader for a game that only makes its money from box sales unlike LoL, DOTA 2 or SMITE.
I think MLG experimented with a PPV model for SC2 a while ago but I don't think it turned out as well as they hoped.
Sc2 does have that many idiots that will pay big bucks to watch 2 minute boxing matches...
Ssl is live in korea. I love going to watch it live great fun. Really disappointed with gsl the last few season. Caster just seem to be going through the motions.
So in other words they didn't make anymore money than they did when it was on low aka the subscriber base didn't increase. Then they wonder why everyone says they are greedy? There are better channels to watch that don't force restrictions on quality since they broadcast it anyway. Some channels make you sub for vods and nobody has a problem with that. Somehow GSL manages to lose money when everyone else is broadcasting 3.5k bitrate also? I just don't get it. Oh well their shitty stream will eventually retire on twitch and good riddance.
the funny thing about it is that even after paying all i get is a 720p stream that looks more like 480p (and has been offline or lagging for a lot of the games this season) with the same casters for now 5 years that basically dont watch any other sc2 games than the ones theyre casting and dont even care about those anymore while the ssl is kinda doing everything else better. free 1080p, engaged casters and quick youtube vods. goodbye gsl
For anyone praising the hell out of SSL. I watched the RO4 today via TL link/twitch and the stream was on medium quality. Medium quality is medium quality - you can understand whats going on, but thats about it, not the best. If i wanted higher quality or Source, i had to pay a subcription - 5 bucks. So i really dont get where this whole "'SSL streams HQ for free"' comes from - or maybe i did something wrong.
For comparison after paying my subsrciption i watched GSL yesterday, on Source. The picture was crystal clear (hell i could count the zits on MyungSik's face) and as far as i watched, there wasn't any lag or other problems. Of course Tastosis was off at times, you can see they sometimes get bored, but i support them none the less and i am happy with my choice.
On June 12 2015 04:16 SC2Toastie wrote: Hassan_RO, the Azubu stream is free in Source quality and it looks EXCELLENT. Also, Azubu has better streams overall.
And you can rewind and rewatch mid-stream if you missed something.
On June 11 2015 20:50 PBateman wrote: the funny thing about it is that even after paying all i get is a 720p stream that looks more like 480p (and has been offline or lagging for a lot of the games this season) with the same casters for now 5 years that basically dont watch any other sc2 games than the ones theyre casting and dont even care about those anymore while the ssl is kinda doing everything else better. free 1080p, engaged casters and quick youtube vods. goodbye gsl
its almost like when a thoroughly independent organization does the production you get a 1st rate product.
when the production is ultimately backed by "the man" u end up with a production that feels like its run by a government sponsored union shop.
On June 11 2015 20:50 PBateman wrote: the funny thing about it is that even after paying all i get is a 720p stream that looks more like 480p (and has been offline or lagging for a lot of the games this season) with the same casters for now 5 years that basically dont watch any other sc2 games than the ones theyre casting and dont even care about those anymore while the ssl is kinda doing everything else better. free 1080p, engaged casters and quick youtube vods. goodbye gsl
its almost like when a thoroughly independent organization does the production you get a 1st rate product.
when the production is ultimately backed by "the man" u end up with a production that feels like its run by a government sponsored union shop.
I want to support them but am still unhappy about that one time when I paid then GSL became free to watch thanks to blizzard. No refund/communication at all. Bad PR is bad.
On June 12 2015 04:11 Hassan_RO wrote: For anyone praising the hell out of SSL. I watched the RO4 today via TL link/twitch and the stream was on medium quality. Medium quality is medium quality - you can understand whats going on, but thats about it, not the best. If i wanted higher quality or Source, i had to pay a subcription - 5 bucks. So i really dont get where this whole "'SSL streams HQ for free"' comes from - or maybe i did something wrong.
For comparison after paying my subsrciption i watched GSL yesterday, on Source. The picture was crystal clear (hell i could count the zits on MyungSik's face) and as far as i watched, there wasn't any lag or other problems. Of course Tastosis was off at times, you can see they sometimes get bored, but i support them none the less and i am happy with my choice.
SSL has another upside by uploading vods to youtube almost instantly for free.
On June 12 2015 04:11 Hassan_RO wrote: For anyone praising the hell out of SSL. I watched the RO4 today via TL link/twitch and the stream was on medium quality. Medium quality is medium quality - you can understand whats going on, but thats about it, not the best. If i wanted higher quality or Source, i had to pay a subcription - 5 bucks. So i really dont get where this whole "'SSL streams HQ for free"' comes from - or maybe i did something wrong.
For comparison after paying my subsrciption i watched GSL yesterday, on Source. The picture was crystal clear (hell i could count the zits on MyungSik's face) and as far as i watched, there wasn't any lag or other problems. Of course Tastosis was off at times, you can see they sometimes get bored, but i support them none the less and i am happy with my choice.
SSL has another upside by uploading vods to youtube almost instantly for free.
On June 12 2015 04:11 Hassan_RO wrote: For anyone praising the hell out of SSL. I watched the RO4 today via TL link/twitch and the stream was on medium quality. Medium quality is medium quality - you can understand whats going on, but thats about it, not the best. If i wanted higher quality or Source, i had to pay a subcription - 5 bucks. So i really dont get where this whole "'SSL streams HQ for free"' comes from - or maybe i did something wrong.
For comparison after paying my subsrciption i watched GSL yesterday, on Source. The picture was crystal clear (hell i could count the zits on MyungSik's face) and as far as i watched, there wasn't any lag or other problems. Of course Tastosis was off at times, you can see they sometimes get bored, but i support them none the less and i am happy with my choice.
SSL has another upside by uploading vods to youtube almost instantly for free.
Imo, the only major upside.
Free source on Azubu. Also casters who care about Starcraft more than 3 times a season.
I said it before, but I will say it for more people to get it. Tastosis, though not everyone's cup of tea, gives a unique brand of casting that I've never seen before. Yes, they do go off topic, but that's the beauty of it. My favorite pass time is to rewatch sc2 VODs and I watch mostly VODs of tastosis casting. Why? Because they change topic frequently in every match and keeps me entertained even if it's not always funny.
Yet, I haven't noticed them go off topic as much as the TL community complains. They're spot on most of the time. They cast when they need to and joke around when there's nothing much to say.
I seriously don't understand what's so bad about tastosis except that they don't "hype" with "ooooooh"s and "oh no!"s. I even find that repetitive after a while. Only Apollo seems to do that well in sc2.
On June 12 2015 04:11 Hassan_RO wrote: For anyone praising the hell out of SSL. I watched the RO4 today via TL link/twitch and the stream was on medium quality. Medium quality is medium quality - you can understand whats going on, but thats about it, not the best. If i wanted higher quality or Source, i had to pay a subcription - 5 bucks. So i really dont get where this whole "'SSL streams HQ for free"' comes from - or maybe i did something wrong.
For comparison after paying my subsrciption i watched GSL yesterday, on Source. The picture was crystal clear (hell i could count the zits on MyungSik's face) and as far as i watched, there wasn't any lag or other problems. Of course Tastosis was off at times, you can see they sometimes get bored, but i support them none the less and i am happy with my choice.
SSL has another upside by uploading vods to youtube almost instantly for free.
Imo, the only major upside.
Free source on Azubu. Also casters who care about Starcraft more than 3 times a season.
My point still stands, though it's a major advantage. About these casters, seriously, why do you people seem to hate the duo? Please give me some hard arguments.
On June 12 2015 04:11 Hassan_RO wrote: For anyone praising the hell out of SSL. I watched the RO4 today via TL link/twitch and the stream was on medium quality. Medium quality is medium quality - you can understand whats going on, but thats about it, not the best. If i wanted higher quality or Source, i had to pay a subcription - 5 bucks. So i really dont get where this whole "'SSL streams HQ for free"' comes from - or maybe i did something wrong.
For comparison after paying my subsrciption i watched GSL yesterday, on Source. The picture was crystal clear (hell i could count the zits on MyungSik's face) and as far as i watched, there wasn't any lag or other problems. Of course Tastosis was off at times, you can see they sometimes get bored, but i support them none the less and i am happy with my choice.
SSL has another upside by uploading vods to youtube almost instantly for free.
Imo, the only major upside.
Free source on Azubu. Also casters who care about Starcraft more than 3 times a season.
My point still stands, though it's a major advantage. About these casters, seriously, why do you people seem to hate the duo? Please give me some hard arguments.
People probably don't really hate them as much as they're disappointed. They used to be the absolute best casting duo. They've been getting worse and worse and you can tell that they don't spend nearly as much time with Starcraft 2 as they probably should (Tasteless more so than Artosis) considering their jobs have an analytical component.
As for the going off topic part, they've had days where they barely talked about the games they were casting. I can see how that annoys people.
On June 12 2015 04:11 Hassan_RO wrote: For anyone praising the hell out of SSL. I watched the RO4 today via TL link/twitch and the stream was on medium quality. Medium quality is medium quality - you can understand whats going on, but thats about it, not the best. If i wanted higher quality or Source, i had to pay a subcription - 5 bucks. So i really dont get where this whole "'SSL streams HQ for free"' comes from - or maybe i did something wrong.
For comparison after paying my subsrciption i watched GSL yesterday, on Source. The picture was crystal clear (hell i could count the zits on MyungSik's face) and as far as i watched, there wasn't any lag or other problems. Of course Tastosis was off at times, you can see they sometimes get bored, but i support them none the less and i am happy with my choice.
SSL has another upside by uploading vods to youtube almost instantly for free.
Imo, the only major upside.
Free source on Azubu. Also casters who care about Starcraft more than 3 times a season.
My point still stands, though it's a major advantage. About these casters, seriously, why do you people seem to hate the duo? Please give me some hard arguments.
People probably don't really hate them as much as they're disappointed. They used to be the absolute best casting duo. They've been getting worse and worse and you can tell that they don't spend nearly as much time with Starcraft 2 as they probably should (Tasteless more so than Artosis) considering their jobs have an analytical component.
As for the going off topic part, they've had days where they barely talked about the games they were casting. I can see how that annoys people.
It's true that tastosis changed. For worse though? Not necessarily. Sure, their "hype" seems to have decreased (I didn't watch much Wol), but they're calmer and more analytical imo and you need to sacrifice the hyping noise for that. At the very least, they seem to predict builds and how player A would play pretty well, and that shows you that they are doing their research.
In terms of talking off the topic, it's sth new that I appreciate very much. As I said before, it give good replay value. You simply can't expect the duo to always do great on something they're experimenting on.
The main point is however, the duo is still miles ahead of Wolf/Moonglade/Valdes. Wolf is the most experienced and professional of the three, but the things that other two say just makes me cringe sometimes. You think tastosis got worse? Well, at least they know what they're talking about and have a memory span of even back in brood war days. The other three have potential, but you can't really compare them with tastosis in professional skill right now.
For more info, Kaeleris and Apollo used to be more noisy and "passionate" in their cast. Now instead of such passion, they are more monotone. This is because they know more of what players are doing now and therefore less surprised and excited. Second, they need some time to think about what they are going to say if they're to give sth more constructive than "A is in trouble"
On June 12 2015 04:11 Hassan_RO wrote: For anyone praising the hell out of SSL. I watched the RO4 today via TL link/twitch and the stream was on medium quality. Medium quality is medium quality - you can understand whats going on, but thats about it, not the best. If i wanted higher quality or Source, i had to pay a subcription - 5 bucks. So i really dont get where this whole "'SSL streams HQ for free"' comes from - or maybe i did something wrong.
For comparison after paying my subsrciption i watched GSL yesterday, on Source. The picture was crystal clear (hell i could count the zits on MyungSik's face) and as far as i watched, there wasn't any lag or other problems. Of course Tastosis was off at times, you can see they sometimes get bored, but i support them none the less and i am happy with my choice.
SSL has another upside by uploading vods to youtube almost instantly for free.
Imo, the only major upside.
Free source on Azubu. Also casters who care about Starcraft more than 3 times a season.
My point still stands, though it's a major advantage. About these casters, seriously, why do you people seem to hate the duo? Please give me some hard arguments.
People probably don't really hate them as much as they're disappointed. They used to be the absolute best casting duo. They've been getting worse and worse and you can tell that they don't spend nearly as much time with Starcraft 2 as they probably should (Tasteless more so than Artosis) considering their jobs have an analytical component.
As for the going off topic part, they've had days where they barely talked about the games they were casting. I can see how that annoys people.
It's true that tastosis changed. For worse though? Not necessarily. Sure, their "hype" seems to have decreased (I didn't watch much Wol), but they're calmer and more analytical imo and you need to sacrifice the hyping noise for that. At the very least, they seem to predict builds and how player A would play pretty well, and that shows you that they are doing their research.
In terms of talking off the topic, it's sth new that I appreciate very much. As I said before, it give good replay value. You simply can't expect the duo to always do great on something they're experimenting on.
The main point is however, the duo is still miles ahead of Wolf/Moonglade/Valdes. Wolf is the most experienced and professional of the three, but the things that other two say just makes me cringe sometimes. You think tastosis got worse? Well, at least they know what they're talking about and have a memory span of even back in brood war days. The other three have potential, but you can't really compare them with tastosis in professional skill right now.
Really? I'd say Wolf makes the most mistakes of those three and Moonglade is by far the most knowledgeable
On June 12 2015 04:11 Hassan_RO wrote: For anyone praising the hell out of SSL. I watched the RO4 today via TL link/twitch and the stream was on medium quality. Medium quality is medium quality - you can understand whats going on, but thats about it, not the best. If i wanted higher quality or Source, i had to pay a subcription - 5 bucks. So i really dont get where this whole "'SSL streams HQ for free"' comes from - or maybe i did something wrong.
For comparison after paying my subsrciption i watched GSL yesterday, on Source. The picture was crystal clear (hell i could count the zits on MyungSik's face) and as far as i watched, there wasn't any lag or other problems. Of course Tastosis was off at times, you can see they sometimes get bored, but i support them none the less and i am happy with my choice.
SSL has another upside by uploading vods to youtube almost instantly for free.
Imo, the only major upside.
Free source on Azubu. Also casters who care about Starcraft more than 3 times a season.
My point still stands, though it's a major advantage. About these casters, seriously, why do you people seem to hate the duo? Please give me some hard arguments.
People probably don't really hate them as much as they're disappointed. They used to be the absolute best casting duo. They've been getting worse and worse and you can tell that they don't spend nearly as much time with Starcraft 2 as they probably should (Tasteless more so than Artosis) considering their jobs have an analytical component.
As for the going off topic part, they've had days where they barely talked about the games they were casting. I can see how that annoys people.
It's true that tastosis changed. For worse though? Not necessarily. Sure, their "hype" seems to have decreased (I didn't watch much Wol), but they're calmer and more analytical imo and you need to sacrifice the hyping noise for that. At the very least, they seem to predict builds and how player A would play pretty well, and that shows you that they are doing their research.
In terms of talking off the topic, it's sth new that I appreciate very much. As I said before, it give good replay value. You simply can't expect the duo to always do great on something they're experimenting on.
The main point is however, the duo is still miles ahead of Wolf/Moonglade/Valdes. Wolf is the most experienced and professional of the three, but the things that other two say just makes me cringe sometimes. You think tastosis got worse? Well, at least they know what they're talking about and have a memory span of even back in brood war days. The other three have potential, but you can't really compare them with tastosis in professional skill right now.
Really? I'd say Wolf makes the most mistakes of those three and Moonglade is by far the most knowledgeable
Recently, I'd say Wolf is most professional just due to the experience of talking non-stop. I mean he was bad as Valdes last year but he certainly improved (I really am sorry for keep picking Valdes, but I can't pick Moonglade),
Moonglade on the other hand, is calmer and more accurate in what he says overall. But he also tends to follow what the others are doing, which makes his persona a little less noticeable. This is maybe why I chose Wolf over Moonglade so easily without thinking deeply.
On June 12 2015 04:11 Hassan_RO wrote: For anyone praising the hell out of SSL. I watched the RO4 today via TL link/twitch and the stream was on medium quality. Medium quality is medium quality - you can understand whats going on, but thats about it, not the best. If i wanted higher quality or Source, i had to pay a subcription - 5 bucks. So i really dont get where this whole "'SSL streams HQ for free"' comes from - or maybe i did something wrong.
For comparison after paying my subsrciption i watched GSL yesterday, on Source. The picture was crystal clear (hell i could count the zits on MyungSik's face) and as far as i watched, there wasn't any lag or other problems. Of course Tastosis was off at times, you can see they sometimes get bored, but i support them none the less and i am happy with my choice.
SSL has another upside by uploading vods to youtube almost instantly for free.
Imo, the only major upside.
Free source on Azubu. Also casters who care about Starcraft more than 3 times a season.
My point still stands, though it's a major advantage. About these casters, seriously, why do you people seem to hate the duo? Please give me some hard arguments.
People probably don't really hate them as much as they're disappointed. They used to be the absolute best casting duo. They've been getting worse and worse and you can tell that they don't spend nearly as much time with Starcraft 2 as they probably should (Tasteless more so than Artosis) considering their jobs have an analytical component.
As for the going off topic part, they've had days where they barely talked about the games they were casting. I can see how that annoys people.
It's true that tastosis changed. For worse though? Not necessarily. Sure, their "hype" seems to have decreased (I didn't watch much Wol), but they're calmer and more analytical imo and you need to sacrifice the hyping noise for that. At the very least, they seem to predict builds and how player A would play pretty well, and that shows you that they are doing their research.
In terms of talking off the topic, it's sth new that I appreciate very much. As I said before, it give good replay value. You simply can't expect the duo to always do great on something they're experimenting on.
The main point is however, the duo is still miles ahead of Wolf/Moonglade/Valdes. Wolf is the most experienced and professional of the three, but the things that other two say just makes me cringe sometimes. You think tastosis got worse? Well, at least they know what they're talking about and have a memory span of even back in brood war days. The other three have potential, but you can't really compare them with tastosis in professional skill right now.
Really? I'd say Wolf makes the most mistakes of those three and Moonglade is by far the most knowledgeable
Recently, I'd say Wolf is most professional just due to the experience of talking non-stop. I mean he was bad as Valdes last year but he certainly improved (I really am sorry for keep picking Valdes, but I can't pick Moonglade),
Moonglade on the other hand, is calmer and more accurate in what he says overall. But he also tends to follow what the others are doing, which makes his persona a little less noticeable. This is maybe why I chose Wolf over Moonglade so easily without thinking deeply.
moonglade is the only one of the three who is actually an ex professional player (and i believe still a GM ladder player) and he is thoroughly knowledgeable about all three races, i hardly ever notice him making bad calls at all, he's very on point. compare to wolf, who recently in proleague said that a failed hellbat attack was "game over, man" before the game proceeded to go on for like 15 minutes and end on a lategame muta switch...
edit: and i like wolf, he isn't bad and he gives a good effort, but he does have a lot of Wolf Moments and brendan has steadily improved to a point where he even corrects wolf sometimes
That's great because I still remember Valdes and Moonglade not remembering a match that happened just days before and that really was not good.
I really hope that they get better fast. But I am pretty sure tastosis can still do the same style of casting as them with better performance and that was the point in my argument.
I popped into the GSL rebroadcast and chat was in sub mode: it was an absolute graveyard, dead silent. Pretty sure this is going to be the nail in the coffin as GSL takes away pretty much any point to watch the channel.
On June 12 2015 07:03 Penev wrote: Moonglade is indeed a GM on the Korean ladder (and I believe Valdes is a Korean diamond).
Just noting on yesterdays game from S*L(Stats vs Classic) where both commentators missed 2 blocked colossi behind buildings which probably cost the game. Both went on and on about concave fight. One of them was Moonglade Shit happens, but I dare to say this wouldn't happen to Tastosis(by some Murphy's law it will happen today in GSL ). But maybe I am just a fanboy
And I don't want to say Moonglade is bad caster. He's excellent when ZvX is going on(maybe the best). But man, when there's no Zerg involved he's a lot of time wrong too. And I am talking about PvX mostly, because I play Protoss and see(hear) what he's talking about and laugh for myself from time to time.
And I will repeat it one more time - he's not bad. He's actually pretty good, I would put him probably as #3 on my list today, he improved a lot. But he should be more careful about other races, I think Artosis is doing the same so his lack of knowledge is not that obvious. (and again and again - Moonglade is GM player - his lack of knowledge is so small it's laughable to talk about, but it is there)
Also, as someone mentioned - their off topic is actually pretty good and will fade away in LotV. I love more the casting when they are not saying obvious things because I can see it. It's not a radio, duh
I think that in the future Wolf/Valdez/Moonglade will be better than Tastosis, they improved a lot(which is not weird because they cast a lot ).
On June 12 2015 07:03 Penev wrote: Moonglade is indeed a GM on the Korean ladder (and I believe Valdes is a Korean diamond).
Just noting on yesterdays game from S*L(Stats vs Classic) where both commentators missed 2 blocked colossi behind buildings which probably cost the game. Both went on and on about concave fight. One of them was Moonglade Shit happens, but I dare to say this wouldn't happen to Tastosis(by some Murphy's law it will happen today in GSL ). But maybe I am just a fanboy
And I don't want to say Moonglade is bad caster. He's excellent when ZvX is going on(maybe the best). But man, when there's no Zerg involved he's a lot of time wrong too. And I am talking about PvX mostly, because I play Protoss and see(hear) what he's talking about and laugh for myself from time to time.
And I will repeat it one more time - he's not bad. He's actually pretty good, I would put him probably as #3 on my list today, he improved a lot. But he should be more careful about other races, I think Artosis is doing the same so his lack of knowledge is not that obvious. (and again and again - Moonglade is GM player - his lack of knowledge is so small it's laughable to talk about, but it is there)
Also, as someone mentioned - their off topic is actually pretty good and will fade away in LotV. I love more the casting when they are not saying obvious things because I can see it. It's not a radio, duh
I think that in the future Wolf/Valdez/Moonglade will be better than Tastosis, they improved a lot(which is not weird because they cast a lot ).
Cursing the curser, nice!
Yeah, all of them make mistakes from time to time. If you've been commentating for ours than that is bound to happen. I feel people are oftentimes way too critical about it. I actually like all five of them. And I like variety, some people are really stuck at trying to determine "the best" for everything.
On June 12 2015 16:19 cheekymonkey wrote: A company wants to make money off their product, and not give a free alternative to their customers.
Riot.
And don't take your anger out on Tastosis.... What a sad thread.
and they aren't going to make any money doing this. if it isn't working, they need to find a new business model, because giving everyone garbage quality and forcing a paywall on twitch, where they are, oh, literally the only entity in gaming doing this, simply won't get it done. blizzard had the opportunity when this game was big to step in and subsidize/unify the esports aspect of it, like Riot did, but by the time they figured that out they were way too late and then they basically gave up. now GOM has to do it on their own, in a market where their old strategy simply is no longer viable, and the game is far less popular than it was back in 2011. at best they just have their head in the sand.
Bad business model. I won't watch the games at all now. Will that make it better for them? I hardly watched with medium quality. It's either ultra or nothing, it's 2015, not 2010. Incentivise subscriptions by other means - a paywall simply won't work.
On June 12 2015 07:10 swissman777 wrote: That's great because I still remember Valdes and Moonglade not remembering a match that happened just days before and that really was not good.
I really hope that they get better fast. But I am pretty sure tastosis can still do the same style of casting as them with better performance and that was the point in my argument.
I wouldn't call it an argument. It's your opinion. My favorite Korean duo is Valdes and Moonglade.
As far as skill goes, Moonglade is the only one who streams as far as I know. The rest might be in bronze for all we know.
On June 12 2015 07:10 swissman777 wrote: That's great because I still remember Valdes and Moonglade not remembering a match that happened just days before and that really was not good.
I really hope that they get better fast. But I am pretty sure tastosis can still do the same style of casting as them with better performance and that was the point in my argument.
I wouldn't call it an argument. It's your opinion. My favorite Korean duo is Valdes and Moonglade.
As far as skill goes, Moonglade is the only one who streams as far as I know. The rest might be in bronze for all we know.
I was writing paragraphs and paragraphs on why tastosis is still better than the other three at this moment. I was stating my reasons for my opinion, which qualifies as an argument.
On June 12 2015 07:10 swissman777 wrote: That's great because I still remember Valdes and Moonglade not remembering a match that happened just days before and that really was not good.
I really hope that they get better fast. But I am pretty sure tastosis can still do the same style of casting as them with better performance and that was the point in my argument.
I wouldn't call it an argument. It's your opinion. My favorite Korean duo is Valdes and Moonglade.
As far as skill goes, Moonglade is the only one who streams as far as I know. The rest might be in bronze for all we know.
I was writing paragraphs and paragraphs on why tastosis is still better than the other three at this moment. I was stating my reasons for my opinion, which qualifies as an argument.
That is admittedly true. Though, imo, this is akin to arguing over whether blue or green is better. Pointless.
On June 12 2015 07:10 swissman777 wrote: That's great because I still remember Valdes and Moonglade not remembering a match that happened just days before and that really was not good.
I really hope that they get better fast. But I am pretty sure tastosis can still do the same style of casting as them with better performance and that was the point in my argument.
I wouldn't call it an argument. It's your opinion. My favorite Korean duo is Valdes and Moonglade.
As far as skill goes, Moonglade is the only one who streams as far as I know. The rest might be in bronze for all we know.
I was writing paragraphs and paragraphs on why tastosis is still better than the other three at this moment. I was stating my reasons for my opinion, which qualifies as an argument.
That is admittedly true. Though, imo, this is akin to arguing over whether blue or green is better. Pointless.
On June 12 2015 07:10 swissman777 wrote: That's great because I still remember Valdes and Moonglade not remembering a match that happened just days before and that really was not good.
I really hope that they get better fast. But I am pretty sure tastosis can still do the same style of casting as them with better performance and that was the point in my argument.
I wouldn't call it an argument. It's your opinion. My favorite Korean duo is Valdes and Moonglade.
As far as skill goes, Moonglade is the only one who streams as far as I know. The rest might be in bronze for all we know.
I was writing paragraphs and paragraphs on why tastosis is still better than the other three at this moment. I was stating my reasons for my opinion, which qualifies as an argument.
That is admittedly true. Though, imo, this is akin to arguing over whether blue or green is better. Pointless.
Please do give me at least two reasons why it's pointless. It's hard to believe you otherwise.
On June 12 2015 07:10 swissman777 wrote: That's great because I still remember Valdes and Moonglade not remembering a match that happened just days before and that really was not good.
I really hope that they get better fast. But I am pretty sure tastosis can still do the same style of casting as them with better performance and that was the point in my argument.
I wouldn't call it an argument. It's your opinion. My favorite Korean duo is Valdes and Moonglade.
As far as skill goes, Moonglade is the only one who streams as far as I know. The rest might be in bronze for all we know.
I was writing paragraphs and paragraphs on why tastosis is still better than the other three at this moment. I was stating my reasons for my opinion, which qualifies as an argument.
That is admittedly true. Though, imo, this is akin to arguing over whether blue or green is better. Pointless.
Blue ofc. Sheesh
Please.
Green is the color of nature and spring. Symbolizing growth and fertility. Also, green man: go.
Their mistake is thinking that enough people still care about the GSL that their number of subscribers will go up because people are enough people desperate to watch it in decent quality at whatever cost.
They are mistaken.
They no longer have a monopoly on high level Korean starcraft and, quite frankly, no longer deliver a superior product to their competitors. It's time for them to change or die, and this is not the right change.
On June 12 2015 07:10 swissman777 wrote: That's great because I still remember Valdes and Moonglade not remembering a match that happened just days before and that really was not good.
I really hope that they get better fast. But I am pretty sure tastosis can still do the same style of casting as them with better performance and that was the point in my argument.
I wouldn't call it an argument. It's your opinion. My favorite Korean duo is Valdes and Moonglade.
As far as skill goes, Moonglade is the only one who streams as far as I know. The rest might be in bronze for all we know.
I was writing paragraphs and paragraphs on why tastosis is still better than the other three at this moment. I was stating my reasons for my opinion, which qualifies as an argument.
That is admittedly true. Though, imo, this is akin to arguing over whether blue or green is better. Pointless.
Blue ofc. Sheesh
Please.
Green is the color of nature and spring. Symbolizing growth and fertility. Also, green man: go.
Blue is a better colour, as you can use it together with red without causing problems for colour blind. Also, bright colours of green display really poorly on many projects and screen, making it unsuitable for many applications. Taking a colour as blue, you can use dark blue, bright blue and cyan, all displaying well and being easily distinguishable. And don't even mention yellow.
GSL isn't the only high level sc2, not sure why they think they can downgrade in the year of our lord 2015 where every stream is basically high or even source quality for free in the other esports (haven't watched SC2 in awhile tbh)
GSL typically comes on air at Korean prime-time. However, this corresponds to 11:00 CET -> Europeans are at school or work. 05:00 EDT -> Americans are asleep
They seriously want us to pay to watch a stream in these hours? Watching the VODs is pointless when winners are announced via social media and other news stations by the time you are able to watch them.
On June 12 2015 21:33 las91 wrote: just watch SSL and the other leagues that go on.
GSL isn't the only high level sc2, not sure why they think they can downgrade in the year of our lord 2015 where every stream is basically high or even source quality for free in the other esports (haven't watched SC2 in awhile tbh)
It's the same in SC2. GSL is the only one who's doing this.
On June 12 2015 20:28 Cascade wrote: Blue is a better colour, as you can use it together with red without causing problems for colour blind. Also, bright colours of green display really poorly on many projects and screen, making it unsuitable for many applications. Taking a colour as blue, you can use dark blue, bright blue and cyan, all displaying well and being easily distinguishable. And don't even mention yellow.
On June 12 2015 20:28 Cascade wrote: Blue is a better colour, as you can use it together with red without causing problems for colour blind. Also, bright colours of green display really poorly on many projects and screen, making it unsuitable for many applications. Taking a colour as blue, you can use dark blue, bright blue and cyan, all displaying well and being easily distinguishable. And don't even mention yellow.
What have I started xD
You were wrong btw; I was blue but got convinced to switch to green. It's not pointless!
On June 12 2015 21:39 Aervhorn wrote: GSL typically comes on air at Korean prime-time. However, this corresponds to 11:00 CET -> Europeans are at school or work. 05:00 EDT -> Americans are asleep
They seriously want us to pay to watch a stream in these hours? Watching the VODs is pointless when winners are announced via social media and other news stations by the time you are able to watch them.
It takes place in korea. You'd expect the players to play at 2 am?
Ya'll complaining too much or are delusional. SC2 viewership has been in substantial decline for a while now and the player pool is stagnant and shrinking. The first posters who said GSL isn't the only league in Korea...okay...lets remove it, there won't be a replacement league, you know just have SSL and proleague. (and I'm sure SSL faces the exact same challenges).
You can say it's a bad business model but at this point I'm pretty sure GOM isn't looking to increase subs, there trying to stop the bleeding. I'm assuming there probably wasn't a huge influx of subs when they increased to medium quality which means just money loss. Keeping it medium quailty won't do anything for their bottom line, this won't magically bring viewers/players back who have moved to other games.
On June 13 2015 01:51 PartyBiscuit wrote: Ya'll complaining too much or are delusional. SC2 viewership has been in substantial decline for a while now and the player pool is stagnant and shrinking. The first posters who said GSL isn't the only league in Korea...okay...lets remove it, there won't be a replacement league, you know just have SSL and proleague. (and I'm sure SSL faces the exact same challenges).
You can say it's a bad business model but at this point I'm pretty sure GOM isn't looking to increase subs, there trying to stop the bleeding. I'm assuming there probably wasn't a huge influx of subs when they increased to medium quality which means just money loss. Keeping it medium quailty won't do anything for their bottom line, this won't magically bring viewers/players back who have moved to other games.
You do realize that because it is a Korean Tournament their main income should be extract out of the regional market (hint: korean sponsors etc.). I posted some pages before that GOM always did a really BAD job at creating content for foreigners and by that attracting global-sponsors. You can NEVER sustain a venture like GSL only with subscription. To now say the community complains too much or is dellusional is pretty ... wrong. If someone/thing is dellusional it is GOM for believing that this change will change anything in their numbers ... With increasing total viewer numbers you'd had at least a way to aquire sponsors ... well .. now it's possibly too late to attract sponsors for SC2.
You don't do business in the current web with paywalls. You do business with ads, sponsors and affilates. By a smaller margin; dontations ("decide how much you pay") and by a way smaller margin with subscription models. IF you do subscription based businesses you at least need to offer your customer something for their money in return (which GOM doesn't do).
On June 13 2015 01:51 PartyBiscuit wrote: Keeping it medium quailty won't do anything for their bottom line, this won't magically bring viewers/players back who have moved to other games.
But it could help in the long term for getting people interested in the GSL. If someone brand new to the game watches the GSL and sees the quality they won't bother with it. But if they have medium quality and like it, they might subscribe.
Either way, low quality free streams aren't going to attract potential viewers. And SC2 needs to attract new viewers if it is going to be a viable E-Sport.
On June 13 2015 01:51 PartyBiscuit wrote: Keeping it medium quailty won't do anything for their bottom line, this won't magically bring viewers/players back who have moved to other games.
But it could help in the long term for getting people interested in the GSL. If someone brand new to the game watches the GSL and sees the quality they won't bother with it. But if they have medium quality and like it, they might subscribe.
Either way, low quality free streams aren't going to attract potential viewers. And SC2 needs to attract new viewers if it is going to be a viable E-Sport.
Just imagine some guy who watched Rocketbeans Archon-mode Tournament want to tune in to the "best" SC2 league and won't see anything besides 4 big pixels changing color from time to time. Great viewership nurturing!
I'd even go as far as saying that GOM only has their current viewership because they still feeding from their reputation (WoL times).
Some people here act like it's their privilege to watch GSL in high quality for free. Don't act like you know GOM's financial situation better, you don't. They have obviously experimented for a long time, and have a lot of experience in what works and what doesn't. People are just mad at GOM for forcing you to pay for their high-quality stream and vods, and come off with these weird arguments for how GOM is acting stupidly and that their product is shit. It's pretty sad. Low quality won't bring in more freeloaders, but it will probably make more actually interested people inclined to subscribe for a better product. That's the prioritization they have made, deal with it.
I love GSL and I don't mind paying for their product. GSL is way better than Proleague and SSL in my opinion, however I get their content for free. I wouldn't mind paying for their product either, though. Don't think that they are making such a buck for not requiring subscriptions.
On June 13 2015 06:46 MidnightZL wrote: geez if u really like it u can just pay 5$? its not that much tbh, and if u dont like it skip it... there are other sources of sc2 out there.
When I made $9/hr working at a gas station back in early WoL days, I still coughed up enough for the premium service, haha. Like you, I can't believe people have so much trouble giving a little back for some great content. I don't even watch the streams, just VODs usually.
Hey, just saying that GSL actually now has a pretty good page for viewing vods, that they posted to their twitter a few days ago. Just thought i'd let people know, as it's actually pretty nice and neat so far.
On June 13 2015 03:19 cheekymonkey wrote: Some people here act like it's their privilege to watch GSL in high quality for free. Don't act like you know GOM's financial situation better, you don't. They have obviously experimented for a long time, and have a lot of experience in what works and what doesn't. People are just mad at GOM for forcing you to pay for their high-quality stream and vods, and come off with these weird arguments for how GOM is acting stupidly and that their product is shit. It's pretty sad. Low quality won't bring in more freeloaders, but it will probably make more actually interested people inclined to subscribe for a better product. That's the prioritization they have made, deal with it.
I love GSL and I don't mind paying for their product. GSL is way better than Proleague and SSL in my opinion, however I get their content for free. I wouldn't mind paying for their product either, though. Don't think that they are making such a buck for not requiring subscriptions.
What an incredibly peculiar way to view "free" streams. Certainly you realize that they *want* people to view it? You use the term "freeloader" in a very ignorant manner.
These people complaining are their customers. The product they're receiving has been substantially reduced and they're voicing their concerns. GOM wants viewers, GOM wants feedback. You seem to not understand this.
I don't know if there's a single other professional e-sports tournament in existence that has a restriction as extreme as this. It's natural to question GOM's decision to make such a unique change. They've always been an extraordinarily poor company at the global broadcast level.
I've purchased many many GSL tickets and had wonderful times with the tournament, but that does not mean I cannot recognize the absolutely archaic garbage that is their streaming service. They need to catch up with the rest of the world, but with this news, it sounds like they're only regressing.
On June 13 2015 03:19 cheekymonkey wrote: Some people here act like it's their privilege to watch GSL in high quality for free. Don't act like you know GOM's financial situation better, you don't. They have obviously experimented for a long time, and have a lot of experience in what works and what doesn't. People are just mad at GOM for forcing you to pay for their high-quality stream and vods, and come off with these weird arguments for how GOM is acting stupidly and that their product is shit. It's pretty sad. Low quality won't bring in more freeloaders, but it will probably make more actually interested people inclined to subscribe for a better product. That's the prioritization they have made, deal with it.
I love GSL and I don't mind paying for their product. GSL is way better than Proleague and SSL in my opinion, however I get their content for free. I wouldn't mind paying for their product either, though. Don't think that they are making such a buck for not requiring subscriptions.
On June 13 2015 06:46 MidnightZL wrote: geez if u really like it u can just pay 5$? its not that much tbh, and if u dont like it skip it... there are other sources of sc2 out there.
On June 13 2015 06:46 MidnightZL wrote: geez if u really like it u can just pay 5$? its not that much tbh, and if u dont like it skip it... there are other sources of sc2 out there.
When I made $9/hr working at a gas station back in early WoL days, I still coughed up enough for the premium service, haha. Like you, I can't believe people have so much trouble giving a little back for some great content. I don't even watch the streams, just VODs usually.
Three people in a row who don't understand the basis of why this is not only a bad move for GOM, but why it makes no sense in comparison to the other content available .
If people actually read the explanation you'd see that he basically said that if the free Medium stream was sustained GOM would go out of business. You could say he is simply lying but GOM have built a reputation for being straight over the years. It goes without saying that it is better to have a low quality free stream than for the tournament to die.
If you don't like the low quality, get your wallet out. I've bought a ticket for every season of GOM since the Open Season 1 (including GSTL) and with the exception of the latter seasons of GSTL it was all money well spent.
On June 13 2015 16:17 Balfazar wrote: If people actually read the explanation you'd see that he basically said that if the free Medium stream was sustained GOM would go out of business. You could say he is simply lying but GOM have built a reputation for being straight over the years. It goes without saying that it is better to have a low quality free stream than for the tournament to die.
If you don't like the low quality, get your wallet out. I've bought a ticket for every season of GOM since the Open Season 1 (including GSTL) and with the exception of the latter seasons of GSTL it was all money well spent.
Hahahahaha. You really, honestly believe the half cut of subs on Twitch is what keeps the GOM studio and whole production afloat? Really, honestly?
And just so you are clear, what they say is that it 'less profitable' - not that they're going to close shop because of it.
These 25 pages have really been the same few arguments repeated over and over and over. It usually is in long threads, but this thread has been a bit particularly repetitive I think. So instead of posting, just scroll back a few pages (or go to a random page) and you will see people saying exactly the same thing you are about to type, and other people replying to it, as well as questioning the intellectual integrity of other posters.
The arguments seem to be roughly "They are a private company, they can do what they want." "Everyone else have free HQ, so GOM should too." "This is bad business for GOM, they will lose all the viewers and get no new subs" "GOM knows their business better than [opposing poster] does" "The Koreans get HQ for free" "x$ isn't that much, get over it" "They don't treat their customers well" "Free viewers are not customers" I think each of these have been repeated and in turn ridiculed many times in this thread, so feel free to go back and see why people didn't like the comment you are about to write before you (yes, you there at the keyboard. I see you. No, hiding under the desk wont help. That's right, come back out. Yes, you.) post it in the 7:th iteration.
Other things also mentioned several times, as if they had a meaningful contribution to the discussion: "Entitled freeloading brats" "Greedy GOM bastards" "What are you stupid?" "You don't know what you are talking about" "lol" "hahaha"
On June 13 2015 17:28 Cascade wrote: These 25 pages have really been the same few arguments repeated over and over and over. It usually is in long threads, but this thread has been a bit particularly repetitive I think. So instead of posting, just scroll back a few pages (or go to a random page) and you will see people saying exactly the same thing you are about to type, and other people replying to it, as well as questioning the intellectual integrity of other posters.
The arguments seem to be roughly "They are a private company, they can do what they want." "Everyone else have free HQ, so GOM should too." "This is bad business for GOM, they will lose all the viewers and get no new subs" "GOM knows their business better than [opposing poster] does" "The Koreans get HQ for free" "x$ isn't that much, get over it" "They don't treat their customers well" "Free viewers are not customers" I think each of these have been repeated and in turn ridiculed many times in this thread, so feel free to go back and see why people didn't like the comment you are about to write before you (yes, you there at the keyboard. I see you. No, hiding under the desk wont help. That's right, come back out. Yes, you.) post it in the 7:th iteration.
Other things also mentioned several times, as if they had a meaningful contribution to the discussion: "Entitled freeloading brats" "Greedy GOM bastards" "What are you stupid?" "You don't know what you are talking about" "lol" "hahaha"
You forgot green is better than blue, and vice versa
On June 12 2015 19:03 True_Spike wrote: [...] it's 2015, not 2010. [...]
What does this mean? Public tv channels in HD were free in 2008 (now 60€ yearly). Sky football for watching german bundesliga, HD thing was free for few years some years ago (now 5€ monthly).
Few yearso ago, HD was free in everything (acted like a nice addition to SD) and now nowhere for free (SD is still free in everything).
On June 12 2015 19:03 True_Spike wrote: [...] it's 2015, not 2010. [...]
What does this mean? Public tv channels in HD were free in 2008 (now 60€ yearly). Sky football for watching german bundesliga, HD thing was free for few years some years ago (now 5€ monthly).
Few yearso ago, HD was free in everything (acted like a nice addition to SD) and now nowhere for free (SD is still free in everything).
On June 12 2015 19:03 True_Spike wrote: [...] it's 2015, not 2010. [...]
What does this mean? Public tv channels in HD were free in 2008 (now 60€ yearly). Sky football for watching german bundesliga, HD thing was free for few years some years ago (now 5€ monthly).
Few yearso ago, HD was free in everything (acted like a nice addition to SD) and now nowhere for free (SD is still free in everything).
in esports it is
No. No Tournament except Dreamhack offers [source] for free.
On June 12 2015 19:03 True_Spike wrote: [...] it's 2015, not 2010. [...]
What does this mean? Public tv channels in HD were free in 2008 (now 60€ yearly). Sky football for watching german bundesliga, HD thing was free for few years some years ago (now 5€ monthly).
Few yearso ago, HD was free in everything (acted like a nice addition to SD) and now nowhere for free (SD is still free in everything).
in esports it is
No. No Tournament except Dreamhack offers [source] for free.
WCS, Gfinity, SSL, SPL ( on AZUBU but still ), NationWars too.
This won't do anything but hurt them. How are they going to entice new subscribers when anyone who tunes in to watch a match sees nothing but a pixellated mess?
I am subbed to SPL, can't afford to sub to every single SC2 channel because I am poor. Trying my best to support the scene but at least make other streams watchable T_T
I'm just going to stick to watching the VODs on YouTube. I'd be much more inclined to sub EsportsTV for the SSL and Proleague, because they publish the VODs on the same day. Mad props for that. However I agree with most people, looking at pixelated blobs in low quality isn't all that fun. Even medium wasn't all it was cracked up to be.
On June 10 2015 15:46 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: lol kiss my tush you greedy frickers.
I don't think that's fair. I'm not involved in production, but I'm going to hazard a guess that the actual production of these high quality tournaments is not at all cheap. In fact I'm surprised they can break even, even with subs.
Also, it seems that my new account cannot create threads yet so I'll ask here, are there any plans to release the VoDs of Ro16 on youtube, like they uploaded Ro32?
Even if I had to subscribe to their twitch channel to watch them that'd be fine (or sub on youtube if you can). I am in serious need of a good SC2 fix as of late, there's nothing to watch now.
On June 12 2015 21:10 isparavanje wrote: So I'm guessing everyone in this thread is a MBA and knows GomTV's business model better than them...?
I know right, I mean you've got be a finely educated professional with lots of experience to understand how to start a successful business or how to create a good product.
Which is why I'm scratching my head trying to understand how Richard Branson made it so big after dropping out of high school. I mean if a high school dropout can become a billionaire... maybe we should judge people on their ideas rather than letters after their name?
On June 10 2015 16:45 Cascade wrote: I feel it's fair. If you don't pay, why do people feel so entitled to HQ stream? >_>
They try their best to earn money of their product, and they seem to think that they will earn more from the paying viewers than they will lose on advertisement from the leaving non-paying viewers. With ad-block and all, I really don't think a free viewer is worth much more than what they pay for the bandwidth. I think a paying viewer is worth a lot of free viewers at least, especially if you subtract the bandwidth costs, so even if they lose 100 free viewers for every new subscriber, I think they will gain from the switch.
"But all the other tournaments are free!" Yeah, maybe they don't have the attraction to get many paying viewers. As a few posters have said, GSL is the most prestigious tournament (or so many think), so many people are ready to pay to see it, even with other "lesser" tournaments available for free. Which is why this move is an option for GSL, but probably not viable for any other tournament, as very few would actually pay for it. It's not a matter of the other tournaments being nice and passionate about SC2, it's just not a good move for them to shut out free views.
Precisely.
The sense of entitlement here is beyond belief. I am truly disappointed in my own species right now. With the amount of free viewers they have, you're correct. Free viewers probably cost them more than they earn from ads. Subscription is the only way. Ad-block is a large contributor to this, but you can't prevent it. People think they deserve access to high production quality content in HD free of charge.
It's depressing. People don't see how incredibly immoral that is.
I just wish they offered those videos on youtube, I loathe the twitch player and their vod system is terrible.
On June 10 2015 16:50 TheWinks wrote: When selling a product, make that product look as awful as possible and more people will buy it!
I subscribed to almost every season until the nightmare that was the switch to twitch and likely won't do it again at this rate.
No, make the completely free version low quality so people will be more tempted to actually pay for the content they consume.
On June 13 2015 14:26 partydude89 wrote: Hey, just saying that GSL actually now has a pretty good page for viewing vods, that they posted to their twitter a few days ago. Just thought i'd let people know, as it's actually pretty nice and neat so far.
If they want to be profitable, the answer is make a better product, not cut cost at the expense of all of your viewers seems like they just don't care about sc2 anymore...
On June 10 2015 16:45 Cascade wrote: I feel it's fair. If you don't pay, why do people feel so entitled to HQ stream? >_>
They try their best to earn money of their product, and they seem to think that they will earn more from the paying viewers than they will lose on advertisement from the leaving non-paying viewers. With ad-block and all, I really don't think a free viewer is worth much more than what they pay for the bandwidth. I think a paying viewer is worth a lot of free viewers at least, especially if you subtract the bandwidth costs, so even if they lose 100 free viewers for every new subscriber, I think they will gain from the switch.
"But all the other tournaments are free!" Yeah, maybe they don't have the attraction to get many paying viewers. As a few posters have said, GSL is the most prestigious tournament (or so many think), so many people are ready to pay to see it, even with other "lesser" tournaments available for free. Which is why this move is an option for GSL, but probably not viable for any other tournament, as very few would actually pay for it. It's not a matter of the other tournaments being nice and passionate about SC2, it's just not a good move for them to shut out free views.
Precisely.
The sense of entitlement here is beyond belief. I am truly disappointed in my own species right now. With the amount of free viewers they have, you're correct. Free viewers probably cost them more than they earn from ads. Subscription is the only way. Ad-block is a large contributor to this, but you can't prevent it. People think they deserve access to high production quality content in HD free of charge.
It's depressing. People don't see how incredibly immoral that is.
I just wish they offered those videos on youtube, I loathe the twitch player and their vod system is terrible.
On June 10 2015 16:50 TheWinks wrote: When selling a product, make that product look as awful as possible and more people will buy it!
I subscribed to almost every season until the nightmare that was the switch to twitch and likely won't do it again at this rate.
No, make the completely free version low quality so people will be more tempted to actually pay for the content they consume.
Utter madness isn't it?
It's not so much entitlement as it is the fact that every person with a half-decent gaming PC and internet connection can stream to Twitch in 720p. This is not 2010 anymore, when those tools were still relatively rudimentary.
To play the devil's advocate, why would a low-quality stream tempt viewers to subscribe? For all I know it could mean that the GOM is just too incompetent to set up a stream with better quality (considering GOM's history I can't blame those people).
The following two things are also pretty much facts of life: 1) people like free stuff, and once something free has been given they will not take kindly to seeing that being taken away 2) people hate advertisements, and the mere existence of adblock means that the Internet has gone too far in drowning people in them. The Internet with adblock is a completely different place compared to the internet without adblock.
I use adblock, and have been for the past five or seven years. I cannot stand advertisements (it's the biggest reason why I don't watch TV at all anymore). I do subscribe to websites that provide useful, in-depth content on the stuff I really care about, but that's usually not entertainment.
On June 10 2015 16:45 Cascade wrote: I feel it's fair. If you don't pay, why do people feel so entitled to HQ stream? >_>
They try their best to earn money of their product, and they seem to think that they will earn more from the paying viewers than they will lose on advertisement from the leaving non-paying viewers. With ad-block and all, I really don't think a free viewer is worth much more than what they pay for the bandwidth. I think a paying viewer is worth a lot of free viewers at least, especially if you subtract the bandwidth costs, so even if they lose 100 free viewers for every new subscriber, I think they will gain from the switch.
"But all the other tournaments are free!" Yeah, maybe they don't have the attraction to get many paying viewers. As a few posters have said, GSL is the most prestigious tournament (or so many think), so many people are ready to pay to see it, even with other "lesser" tournaments available for free. Which is why this move is an option for GSL, but probably not viable for any other tournament, as very few would actually pay for it. It's not a matter of the other tournaments being nice and passionate about SC2, it's just not a good move for them to shut out free views.
Precisely.
The sense of entitlement here is beyond belief. I am truly disappointed in my own species right now. With the amount of free viewers they have, you're correct. Free viewers probably cost them more than they earn from ads. Subscription is the only way. Ad-block is a large contributor to this, but you can't prevent it. People think they deserve access to high production quality content in HD free of charge.
It's depressing. People don't see how incredibly immoral that is.
I just wish they offered those videos on youtube, I loathe the twitch player and their vod system is terrible.
On June 10 2015 16:50 TheWinks wrote: When selling a product, make that product look as awful as possible and more people will buy it!
I subscribed to almost every season until the nightmare that was the switch to twitch and likely won't do it again at this rate.
No, make the completely free version low quality so people will be more tempted to actually pay for the content they consume.
Utter madness isn't it?
It's not so much entitlement as it is the fact that every person with a half-decent gaming PC and internet connection can stream to Twitch in 720p. This is not 2010 anymore, when those tools were still relatively rudimentary.
To play the devil's advocate, why would a low-quality stream tempt viewers to subscribe? For all I know it could mean that the GOM is just too incompetent to set up a stream with better quality (considering GOM's history I can't blame those people).
The following two things are also pretty much facts of life: 1) people like free stuff, and once something free has been given they will not take kindly to seeing that being taken away 2) people hate advertisements, and the mere existence of adblock means that the Internet has gone too far in drowning people in them. The Internet with adblock is a completely different place compared to the internet without adblock.
I use adblock, and have been for the past five or seven years. I cannot stand advertisements (it's the biggest reason why I don't watch TV at all anymore). I do subscribe to websites that provide useful, in-depth content on the stuff I really care about, but that's usually not entertainment.
I don't use adblock. Only Korean SC2 broadcasts tempt me sometimes to use it (because of the silly bombardments). Actually, because of Azubu, it's just the GSL haha. But I never give in, just mute. For the SpotTV content I oftentimes have the Twitch stream open as well, muted, so they get ad revenue.
The sites I visit usually don't spam ads and I want them to get income from somewhere.
On June 14 2015 19:11 Caladan wrote: Who cares anymore, really? I haven't watched GOM in a long time and this will for sure keep me from doing it again in the foreseeable future.
This isn't 2010 anymore. In every aspect. SC2's future lies somewhere else, in community-organized, crowdfunded or non-profit fun events.
Last GSL broadcast about 15k people were watching so there's them.
On June 10 2015 16:45 Cascade wrote: I feel it's fair. If you don't pay, why do people feel so entitled to HQ stream? >_>
They try their best to earn money of their product, and they seem to think that they will earn more from the paying viewers than they will lose on advertisement from the leaving non-paying viewers. With ad-block and all, I really don't think a free viewer is worth much more than what they pay for the bandwidth. I think a paying viewer is worth a lot of free viewers at least, especially if you subtract the bandwidth costs, so even if they lose 100 free viewers for every new subscriber, I think they will gain from the switch.
"But all the other tournaments are free!" Yeah, maybe they don't have the attraction to get many paying viewers. As a few posters have said, GSL is the most prestigious tournament (or so many think), so many people are ready to pay to see it, even with other "lesser" tournaments available for free. Which is why this move is an option for GSL, but probably not viable for any other tournament, as very few would actually pay for it. It's not a matter of the other tournaments being nice and passionate about SC2, it's just not a good move for them to shut out free views.
Precisely.
The sense of entitlement here is beyond belief. I am truly disappointed in my own species right now. With the amount of free viewers they have, you're correct. Free viewers probably cost them more than they earn from ads. Subscription is the only way. Ad-block is a large contributor to this, but you can't prevent it. People think they deserve access to high production quality content in HD free of charge.
It's depressing. People don't see how incredibly immoral that is.
I just wish they offered those videos on youtube, I loathe the twitch player and their vod system is terrible.
On June 10 2015 16:50 TheWinks wrote: When selling a product, make that product look as awful as possible and more people will buy it!
I subscribed to almost every season until the nightmare that was the switch to twitch and likely won't do it again at this rate.
No, make the completely free version low quality so people will be more tempted to actually pay for the content they consume.
Utter madness isn't it?
It's not so much entitlement as it is the fact that every person with a half-decent gaming PC and internet connection can stream to Twitch in 720p. This is not 2010 anymore, when those tools were still relatively rudimentary.
To play the devil's advocate, why would a low-quality stream tempt viewers to subscribe? For all I know it could mean that the GOM is just too incompetent to set up a stream with better quality (considering GOM's history I can't blame those people).
The following two things are also pretty much facts of life: 1) people like free stuff, and once something free has been given they will not take kindly to seeing that being taken away 2) people hate advertisements, and the mere existence of adblock means that the Internet has gone too far in drowning people in them. The Internet with adblock is a completely different place compared to the internet without adblock.
I use adblock, and have been for the past five or seven years. I cannot stand advertisements (it's the biggest reason why I don't watch TV at all anymore). I do subscribe to websites that provide useful, in-depth content on the stuff I really care about, but that's usually not entertainment.
It isn't about internet or computer infrastructure/hardware. This is about sustainable business model and who pays for what.
There are only two options. No one gets anything for free. You're either paying through ads or through a subscription. Now, when ads are insufficient to cover costs, the model does not work. For ads to be effective you need a lot of viewers, which GSL doesn't seem to have. (Not tens of thousands, you usually need hundreds of thousands of viewers for ads to return anything).
So, what other option is there? Please, tell me, how are they supposed to earn a profit or even cover costs without subscriptions? The product they deliver is great. GSL videos are awesome. Maybe you can improve that a bit more but realistically, that isn't the solution at all. Subscriptions are the only possible way for them to continue operating, and if too few people subscribe to them, they'll have to shut it down. That's terrible, and not their fault at all given the product is good.
The fault lies squarely with this atrociously entitled child-like generation I have to deal with. That no one is willing to pay for anything online. Everyone's using adblock and pirating their favorite music/tvshows/movies/games. That will fundamentally alter how the future of the internet looks, and people don't realize this isn't sustainable at all.
On June 14 2015 19:11 Caladan wrote: Who cares anymore, really? I haven't watched GOM in a long time and this will for sure keep me from doing it again in the foreseeable future.
This isn't 2010 anymore. In every aspect. SC2's future lies somewhere else, in community-organized, crowdfunded or non-profit fun events.
You have no idea what this costs. If you don't like GOM's style, that's fine and there is nothing wrong with that. But community organized, what does that even mean?
Low quality non-premier online casts? Those are boring and there are plenty of them around.
If you want the high quality professional cast in-person tournaments like WCS, IEM and GSL, you have to accept that either they need a lot of ads and a lot of viewers to makeup the cost, or they need subs. People seem to have no clue how much it costs to rent a building and hire a bunch of people for production and casting + the equipment and hardware for the show, it's a damn fortune.
I'm not surprised people don't appreciate it though. Just one more thing people take forgranted.
You don't need any MBA master or any career to understand why this is a bad move, just a few hundreds (or thousands) hours watching twitch streams to understand why people sub to streams.
Check any stream with a few thousands of viewers, the ratio of subs per hour is usually higher than in the GSL stream.
They tested the free stream vs pay wall for quality stream already, and from their own analysis they made more money while using a pay wall. We have a dedicated stream for a game that is not necessarily in the best state after all...
On June 15 2015 23:16 Deathstar wrote: They tested the free stream vs pay wall for quality stream already, and from their own analysis they made more money while using a pay wall. We have a dedicated stream for a game that is not necessarily in the best state after all...
I guess that's their reasoning. It's not very future minded and I think, IF there were to be a third player they might risk Blizzard dropping them as well. Can't imagine Blizzard being happy about this low quality advertising.
A funny thing is, btw, that the current low seems better than the previous medium. So did they actually test it properly lol
On June 15 2015 23:16 Deathstar wrote: They tested the free stream vs pay wall for quality stream already, and from their own analysis they made more money while using a pay wall. We have a dedicated stream for a game that is not necessarily in the best state after all...
They made more money in the short run. Is it wise in the long run? I'm no expert on organizing tournaments nor on brand reputation or anything close to that (thus my opinion is probably worthless huehuehue), but the hit they take from this policy in regard to brand reputation/prestige/etc seems really bad to me.
On June 15 2015 23:16 Deathstar wrote: They tested the free stream vs pay wall for quality stream already, and from their own analysis they made more money while using a pay wall. We have a dedicated stream for a game that is not necessarily in the best state after all...
They made more money in the short run. Is it wise in the long run? I'm no expert on organizing tournaments nor on brand reputation or anything close to that (thus my opinion is probably worthless huehuehue), but the hit they take from this policy in regard to brand reputation/prestige/etc seems really bad to me.
Plus what did they actually test? It's entirely possible they tested "If we worsen the free quality we get a sudden influx of subscribers" I didn't see much subscriptions happen when they did it the second time.
On June 14 2015 18:13 BreakfastBurrito wrote: If they want to be profitable, the answer is make a better product, not cut cost at the expense of all of your viewers seems like they just don't care about sc2 anymore...
Look at the current state of SC2 compared to other games and what it used to be. It's not GOM's fault that SC2 isn't popular anymore and nothing they will do will make their production quality any better. Making higher quality free will not attract a significant amount of viewers because no SC2 content will.
No one should blame GOM for trying to cash out on what little time SC2 has left until the new expansion revitalizes the scene for a short time.
On June 14 2015 18:13 BreakfastBurrito wrote: If they want to be profitable, the answer is make a better product, not cut cost at the expense of all of your viewers seems like they just don't care about sc2 anymore...
Look at the current state of SC2 compared to other games and what it used to be. It's not GOM's fault that SC2 isn't popular anymore and nothing they will do will make their production quality any better. Making higher quality free will not attract a significant amount of viewers because no SC2 content will.
No one should blame GOM for trying to cash out on what little time SC2 has left until the new expansion revitalizes the scene for a short time.
I don't think the numbers we're talking about justify the use of cash out etc. I think GOM headquarters just told them to at least make it not lose money or they'll pull the plug.
This decision was made because we believe it’s better to have GSL than not to.
Pretty sure they can't pull the plug on the foreigner stream due to contract with blizzard, at least as long as they want to be affiliated with WCS. Nevertheless, it's a fair assumptions that it's not up to them to lose money on their projects if they can help it.
On June 16 2015 01:21 cheekymonkey wrote: Pretty sure they can't pull the plug on the foreigner stream due to contract with blizzard, at least as long as they want to be affiliated with WCS. Nevertheless, it's a fair assumptions that it's not up to them to lose money on their projects if they can help it.
Pull the plug for next year, if certain conditions aren't met. I take it they work wit 1 year contracts but not sure of course.
Gom lost me as a customer when they switched their vods from a dedicated gomtv website to twitch. God awful organization and half the time the vods don't work on twitch.
Proleague and SSL are great because they post VODs on their YouTube channel eSportsTV hours after it airs. I am never awake to watch any of the Korean stuff live anyways, so I love that I get to watch it when I wake up. If Proleague and SSL can operate without a subscription service I'm sure GSL can as well. GSL is just trying to squeeze more money out of the operation. If you think GSL would disappear if there wasn't a subscription service you don't understand their business.
GSL is the most prestigious SC2 tournament and if they just would scrap this silly agenda of trying to convince fans that buying a subscription service to the GSL is supporting SC2 and keeping GSL around and spend just HALF of the time they spend on that crap on finding more sponsors they would easily be bringing in more money and have no problem making their desired margins without forcing fans to pay to watch their tournament.
It's pretty simple. Focus on the consumer and you'll get more viewers which will make you more enticing to sponsors which is where you'll get the real money. I don't understand why that's a hard concept to grasp because it has such a history of success.
I honestly hate the entire business plan of the GSL because it doesn't have the fans or viewers at the forefront. I'll never pay for the GSL which means I'll basically never watch it which sucks because I love Artosis and Tasteless and thoroughly enjoy watching them cast the GSL. I just refuse to support an eSports system that is not fan focused. Those of you who pay for the GSL are directly contributing to this backwards-thinking business plan and I encourage you to stop it and force them to change their business model.
what saddens me the most tbh is that its such a shortsighted vision that it cant be viable in the future imo.
I can't say for such business, but in case with F2P mmos it's actually the usual practice to milk remaining customers hard before finally closing down service.
We don't know details, we don't know when their contract with Tastosis expires, we don't know if they actually wanna continue and if yes, for how long. Maybe their bosses decided that LoTV won't have major impact on the game's state (and it actually won't, not for more than 2-3 months after its release anyway) and decided to get at least a bit more money while they still have it running.
And I wouldn't blame them for that if it happens. Looking into the streamers list for the last month I see they had 12.5k viewers on average. By today's standards it's way too low for such stream. Basically their stream, which costs money to produce, salary to casters etc has less viewers than a bunch of random guys streaming random games from their home PCs. Less subs too, in some cases way less subs if we talk about popular streamers (Lirik, Soda, Forsen, bunch of MOBA streamers etc). So they may actually think if it's even worth it at this point.
That's an incredibly stupid decision. Seeing as how 90% of the people who didn't subscribe probably are teenage kids who wouldn't/couldn't pay it anyway.
I would pay if I was in a more time zone friendly area to watch GSL regularly. Unfortunately the games start at 5:30 am here.
At least now I know not to bother to stay up late for the really big games if they're gonna be in potato quality.
On June 16 2015 09:29 G5 wrote: Proleague and SSL are great because they post VODs on their YouTube channel eSportsTV hours after it airs. I am never awake to watch any of the Korean stuff live anyways, so I love that I get to watch it when I wake up. If Proleague and SSL can operate without a subscription service I'm sure GSL can as well. GSL is just trying to squeeze more money out of the operation. If you think GSL would disappear if there wasn't a subscription service you don't understand their business.
GSL is the most prestigious SC2 tournament and if they just would scrap this silly agenda of trying to convince fans that buying a subscription service to the GSL is supporting SC2 and keeping GSL around and spend just HALF of the time they spend on that crap on finding more sponsors they would easily be bringing in more money and have no problem making their desired margins without forcing fans to pay to watch their tournament.
It's pretty simple. Focus on the consumer and you'll get more viewers which will make you more enticing to sponsors which is where you'll get the real money. I don't understand why that's a hard concept to grasp because it has such a history of success.
I honestly hate the entire business plan of the GSL because it doesn't have the fans or viewers at the forefront. I'll never pay for the GSL which means I'll basically never watch it which sucks because I love Artosis and Tasteless and thoroughly enjoy watching them cast the GSL. I just refuse to support an eSports system that is not fan focused. Those of you who pay for the GSL are directly contributing to this backwards-thinking business plan and I encourage you to stop it and force them to change their business model.
You love Artosis and Tasteless casting, but you encourage people to stop paying their salary?
It seems some people have very optimistic view on how much money you earn from people watching your stream for free. It'd be fun to get some actual number, how much GOM earns from twitch ads, including per viewer, and how much from subscribers. But I guess there is no reason for them to release those.
I used to subscribe, from the BW days to the early SC2 days.
Subbing to just 1 channel isn't expensive and I'd imagine that it's not considered expensive for most people. It's the fact that there are so many twitch channels out there and tournaments and events and players that all want you to sub and it can very quickly add up.
The logical response to that might be - well don't sub to everyone then, choose one or two and limit yourself to just that. But, if I was to limit myself to just one sub, then how could I choose between GSL and other channels? How do I know which one would benefit most from my money?
Of course I love starcraft and want to see it succeed and be popular and generate income for players and organisers etc. but what part of the scene should my small amount of disposable income go to? Should I give my money to my local scene? Should I put it in the Korean scene? Should my money be going directly to Blizzard in the hopes that they put more attention/resources to it?
On June 16 2015 18:02 jtype wrote: I used to subscribe, from the BW days to the early SC2 days.
Subbing to just 1 channel isn't expensive and I'd imagine that it's not considered expensive for most people. It's the fact that there are so many twitch channels out there and tournaments and events and players that all want you to sub and it can very quickly add up.
The logical response to that might be - well don't sub to everyone then, choose one or two and limit yourself to just that. But, if I was to limit myself to just one sub, then how could I choose between GSL and other channels? How do I know which one would benefit most from my money?
Of course I love starcraft and want to see it succeed and be popular and generate income for players and organisers etc. but what part of the scene should my small amount of disposable income go to? Should I give my money to my local scene? Should I put it in the Korean scene? Should my money be going directly to Blizzard in the hopes that they put more attention/resources to it?
That's where I'm at right now.
Put your money in whatever you enjoy the most. Don't put money into something just to save it because you want it to succeed. That would be artificial and it won't last. It would be sad if GSL went away, but if very few people enjoy it, then it should go away. That opens up the possibility for other organizations to step up their game and move into that slot and deliver what the customers want.
By subscribing to the product you enjoy the most, it is likely that others will enjoy that same thing and the thing you enjoy the most will probably survive. And that's what should survive because that's what people actually want to see.
So if your favorite thing in SC2 is watching players play at the highest level of individual leagues and/or you enjoy the banter of Tastosis more than more serious casters, then GSL would be a good place to put your money. If instead you enjoy watching local players duke it out, then support your local SC2 organizations. Or if you just really like one player, then support that player and his stream, and if he doesn't stream then put the money in the most likely place to see him.
On June 16 2015 18:02 jtype wrote: I used to subscribe, from the BW days to the early SC2 days.
Subbing to just 1 channel isn't expensive and I'd imagine that it's not considered expensive for most people. It's the fact that there are so many twitch channels out there and tournaments and events and players that all want you to sub and it can very quickly add up.
The logical response to that might be - well don't sub to everyone then, choose one or two and limit yourself to just that. But, if I was to limit myself to just one sub, then how could I choose between GSL and other channels? How do I know which one would benefit most from my money?
Of course I love starcraft and want to see it succeed and be popular and generate income for players and organisers etc. but what part of the scene should my small amount of disposable income go to? Should I give my money to my local scene? Should I put it in the Korean scene? Should my money be going directly to Blizzard in the hopes that they put more attention/resources to it?
That's where I'm at right now.
Put your money in whatever you enjoy the most. Don't put money into something just to save it because you want it to succeed. That would be artificial and it won't last. It would be sad if GSL went away, but if very few people enjoy it, then it should go away. That opens up the possibility for other organizations to step up their game and move into that slot and deliver what the customers want.
By subscribing to the product you enjoy the most, it is likely that others will enjoy that same thing and the thing you enjoy the most will probably survive. And that's what should survive because that's what people actually want to see.
So if your favorite thing in SC2 is watching players play at the highest level of individual leagues and/or you enjoy the banter of Tastosis more than more serious casters, then GSL would be a good place to put your money. If instead you enjoy watching local players duke it out, then support your local SC2 organizations. Or if you just really like one player, then support that player and his stream, and if he doesn't stream then put the money in the most likely place to see him.
Yea, I mean that's obviously mostly correct. The issues I have with that are, a) I don't really have one channel that I enjoy the most. It's true in most areas of my life but I vary rarely have a single favourite... anything... if that makes sense. I like lots of different things for lots of different reasons. And, b) I don't agree that just because something's not popular that it should fail.
Hey everyone! I feel like the gsl is worth the money but ofc I hate to pay. Honestly I would say that if the gsl collapses all of pro level sc2 will fall. I love the gsl as I have been their a million times and I love the people. 8 dollars is a lot but its not any worse than a single burker king meal. I made a video about it and I hope you will check it out. I said a lot more than this.
On June 16 2015 18:25 djwaters22 wrote: Hey everyone! this is just my 2 cents. I hope you enjoy my newest video!
(Link)
Ummm, dangerously close to advertising. Can you at the very least put a few sentences of effort into explaining your point here on TL, or some suspicious people may think that you are only fishing for views on your video, and don't really care about the thread.
On June 16 2015 18:25 djwaters22 wrote: Hey everyone! this is just my 2 cents. I hope you enjoy my newest video!
(Link)
Ummm, dangerously close to advertising. Can you at the very least put a few sentences of effort into explaining your point here on TL, or some suspicious people may think that you are only fishing for views on your video, and don't really care about the thread.
Fair enough. Ill type some stuff I talked about in a bit
On June 16 2015 18:25 djwaters22 wrote: Hey everyone! this is just my 2 cents. I hope you enjoy my newest video!
(Link)
Ummm, dangerously close to advertising. Can you at the very least put a few sentences of effort into explaining your point here on TL, or some suspicious people may think that you are only fishing for views on your video, and don't really care about the thread.
Advertizing what? His 5 videos about Korean sc2. Gotta love backseat moderators. He makes some good points.
On June 16 2015 18:25 djwaters22 wrote: Hey everyone! this is just my 2 cents. I hope you enjoy my newest video!
(Link)
Ummm, dangerously close to advertising. Can you at the very least put a few sentences of effort into explaining your point here on TL, or some suspicious people may think that you are only fishing for views on your video, and don't really care about the thread.
Advertizing what? His 5 videos about Korean sc2. Gotta love backseat moderators. He makes some good points.
ty for the love and support. pretty much all my videos are about my love for sc2 :D
On June 16 2015 18:25 djwaters22 wrote: Hey everyone! this is just my 2 cents. I hope you enjoy my newest video!
(Link)
Ummm, dangerously close to advertising. Can you at the very least put a few sentences of effort into explaining your point here on TL, or some suspicious people may think that you are only fishing for views on your video, and don't really care about the thread.
Fair enough. Ill type some stuff I talked about in a bit
On June 16 2015 18:25 djwaters22 wrote: Hey everyone! I feel like the gsl is worth the money but ofc I hate to pay. Honestly I would say that if the gsl collapses all of pro level sc2 will fall. I love the gsl as I have been their a million times and I love the people. 8 dollars is a lot but its not any worse than a single burker king meal. I made a video about it and I hope you will check it out. I said a lot more than this.
Personally I think that if GOM pulls the plug it would hurt A LOT but I don't think it will take everything with it. SSL & Proleague have the (kinda unfair) advantage and ESL seems to do ok for now. It would be nice that if GOM did drop it someone else could take over. Doesn't seem too likely though, maybe Blizzard should take the RIOT route (not too likely either).
So yeah, it would suck but it wouldn't be the end of Starcraft 2.
On June 12 2015 21:10 isparavanje wrote: So I'm guessing everyone in this thread is a MBA and knows GomTV's business model better than them...?
I know right, I mean you've got be a finely educated professional with lots of experience to understand how to start a successful business or how to create a good product.
Which is why I'm scratching my head trying to understand how Richard Branson made it so big after dropping out of high school. I mean if a high school dropout can become a billionaire... maybe we should judge people on their ideas rather than letters after their name?
Nah, that's foolish!
Right?
Is this a real post? Are you trolling? The point he was making is pretty obvious, as is the fact that most people don't know as much about business as someone with an MBA. I mean, really, is the argument supposed to be "Richard Branson made a lot of money so everyone in this thread is qualified to offer an opinion on the GSL"?
On June 12 2015 21:10 isparavanje wrote: So I'm guessing everyone in this thread is a MBA and knows GomTV's business model better than them...?
I know right, I mean you've got be a finely educated professional with lots of experience to understand how to start a successful business or how to create a good product.
Which is why I'm scratching my head trying to understand how Richard Branson made it so big after dropping out of high school. I mean if a high school dropout can become a billionaire... maybe we should judge people on their ideas rather than letters after their name?
Nah, that's foolish!
Right?
Is this a real post? Are you trolling? The point he was making is pretty obvious, as is the fact that most people don't know as much about business as someone with an MBA.
That wasn't his point at all.
His point was that if we don't have a MBA and know their business model, we shouldn't be talking to the GSL about their business decisions.
On June 12 2015 21:10 isparavanje wrote: So I'm guessing everyone in this thread is a MBA and knows GomTV's business model better than them...?
I know right, I mean you've got be a finely educated professional with lots of experience to understand how to start a successful business or how to create a good product.
Which is why I'm scratching my head trying to understand how Richard Branson made it so big after dropping out of high school. I mean if a high school dropout can become a billionaire... maybe we should judge people on their ideas rather than letters after their name?
Nah, that's foolish!
Right?
I mean, really, is the argument supposed to be "Richard Branson made a lot of money so everyone in this thread is qualified to offer an opinion on the GSL"?
My point was that you should judge what people say based on their ideas, not on the letters after their name. So attack their ideas, because their ideas stand independent of who they are and don't suddenly become more or less valid when repeated by someone with an MBA.
Knowing is half the battle, brah. Watch more GI Joe.
Read the second sentence of the main text in the link you posted. Point of the link is 1) exports can be wrong. 2) non experts are more likely to be wrong.
So yes, just because gom does something it doesn't mean that it is a good move. But we are not in a position to say that it is a stupid move. Their guess is more likely to be accurate than ours. Luckily we are a lot of people here, so someone will guess any outcome, and there will always be someone to tell them "told you so" whatever happens.
Knowing is half the battle, brah. Watch more GI Joe.
Read the second sentence of the main text in the link you posted. Point of the link is 1) exports can be wrong. 2) non experts are more likely to be wrong.
So yes, just because gom does something it doesn't mean that it is a good move. But we are not in a position to say that it is a stupid move. Their guess is more likely to be accurate than ours. Luckily we are a lot of people here, so someone will guess any outcome, and there will always be someone to tell them "told you so" whatever happens.
You missed the point.
The whole point of what I am saying is that isn't come down to "let's believe person X or Y" where authority is the only factor. This is a debate regarding if GOM can make more money by switching to medium. Ideas are what matters here, not who says said ideas. There is lack of empirical evidence here.
A forum is a place to share ideas. Argue the ideas, don't just dismiss them because said person don't have a MBA or work for GOM. Because someone from GOM with a MBA could make the exact same argument, so again, it is the ideas that matter, not the person. And the advantage someone working at GOM would have is empirical evidence, which is lacking in this thread.
And if someone has empirical evidence that GOM will make more/less money in the short and long term by going back to low, than this debate is over. But they don't need a MBA for that... remember part of his argument was that they had a MBA =)
Knowing is half the battle, brah. Watch more GI Joe.
Read the second sentence of the main text in the link you posted. Point of the link is 1) exports can be wrong. 2) non experts are more likely to be wrong.
So yes, just because gom does something it doesn't mean that it is a good move. But we are not in a position to say that it is a stupid move. Their guess is more likely to be accurate than ours. Luckily we are a lot of people here, so someone will guess any outcome, and there will always be someone to tell them "told you so" whatever happens.
You missed the point.
The whole point of what I am saying is that isn't come down to "let's believe person X or Y" where authority is the only factor. This is a debate regarding if GOM can make more money by switching to medium. Ideas are what matters here, not who says said ideas. There is lack of empirical evidence here.
A forum is a place to share ideas. Argue the ideas, don't just dismiss them because said person don't have a MBA or work for GOM. Because someone from GOM with a MBA could make the exact same argument, so again, it is the ideas that matter, not the person. And the advantage someone working at GOM would have is empirical evidence, which is lacking in this thread.
And if someone has empirical evidence that GOM will make more/less money in the short and long term by going back to low, than this debate is over. But they don't need a MBA for that... remember part of his argument was that they had a MBA =)
Seeing how GOM have tried both, they have empirical data. They chose to go low. So I feel it is fair to assume that going medium wasn't an obvious economical advantage for them, at least over the time frame they tested it. Which means that people that going "obviously bad business" (with derogatory remarks and "lol" to taste) isn't really justified unless you know things that GOM doesn't.
It doesn't mean that low was much better either, maybe they just want to try low a bit more or whatever. I was mainly aiming at the drive-by posters coming with one-liners about how GOM is stupid. That demographic probably wont read this post though, so not sure why I bother.
EPT
(maybe the Twitch player is bad, since I use VLC)
But yeah, it sounds good to me too.
, i understand ~25% anyway and time-wise, it's better for me.
