EPTLadder Update 4/27/2015 - Page 2
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On April 28 2015 06:13 BadBorz wrote: It was better when 1% masters only, that made an elite league just before GM. But now everyone can be master it's pretty bad On April 22 2015 09:30 Fecalfeast wrote: I don't know about you guys but I'm honestly just excited to read "I got into masters back when it was actually hard" once everything settles down Hahahahahaha edit: On April 28 2015 08:59 darkness wrote: Masters league is shit now. I got it, but I don't feel accomplished because even your grandmother is masters now. Make it 2%, Blizzard. I was feeling more accomplished with high diamond last season unlike the mass masters now. HOHOHOHOHO | ||
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covetousrat
2109 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On April 28 2015 09:48 covetousrat wrote: I got into Masters by 1 basing 90% of my games. #justNAladderthings Also, I was very glad to read their statement on how exactly they inputted this change, because I am among the many people that has put a lot of work in to get where I am and then to get placed in a league I haven't placed in since HotS dropped is REALLY demoralizing after brushing the edge of Masters several times. | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
I always thought they didn't keep track of variance ("uncertainly") that explicitly which was why promotions were based on moving average of MMR. Now that the buffer zone is removed, are you promoted strictly based on stored MMR or is a smoothing function still being applied? It really sounds like they were doing too many little tweaks to a proven rating system and all these customizations were biting them in the ass. | ||
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Adastrom
Canada219 Posts
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On April 28 2015 12:09 knOxStarcraft wrote: Kind of wish they would just remove leagues and just use mmr like dota 2 does this would make everything so much easier and more transparent. most importantly: new players would understand it immediatly. how is it right now? do you really expect a new player to read all forums? and why do they inform us a week after they changed the whole ladder? | ||
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geokilla
Canada8255 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
On April 28 2015 12:28 geokilla wrote: With no ladder demotions, it's not going to work well in the long run. There's no way to balance the league system without demotions. The best case scenario is that it starts off with the target % (say, 20%) and then inflates in a very top-heavy way before being reset in 8 weeks | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12279 Posts
On April 28 2015 10:36 c0ldfusion wrote: Excalibur_Z, do you know which rating system are they actually using? It sounds like modified Glicko2. Except then you shouldn't have needed additional MMR decay in the system. So then the question is, with explicit decay removed, does your "uncertainty" increase over time from inactivity? I always thought they didn't keep track of variance ("uncertainly") that explicitly which was why promotions were based on moving average of MMR. Now that the buffer zone is removed, are you promoted strictly based on stored MMR or is a smoothing function still being applied? It really sounds like they were doing too many little tweaks to a proven rating system and all these customizations were biting them in the ass. The system is proprietary but it's basically a modified Elo. The win probability as defined by the gap between two players functions exactly the same way in Elo as it does in SC2's system. The only difference is SC2 takes the variance into account, so if we're both new players and you're 100 rating higher than me, it might scale the win probability back a little bit (to say, 50) since the confidence that you're actually 100 better than me is pretty low. I actually don't know if uncertainty increases with inactivity, that's something I never got a clear answer on, but it would be interesting to know. I also am not sure whether streakiness inhibited promotions the way they said, because like you, I thought that's what the moving average component was for. I don't think we actually had enough empirical evidence to claim one way or the other. MMR-Stats data tried to estimate boundaries based upon collected user information, and those were generally pretty accurate, leading me to believe that functionality was removed a long time ago. They could just be simplifying the language in the blog post, or they could have actually made other changes like this when HotS launched. In any case, yes, you are now promoted immediately upon crossing the boundary into the new league. The way I understand it, formerly you had to get a certain percentage of the way past the boundary (you could think of it like breaking away from the stickiness of your old league) but that's now gone. As far as MMR-Stats goes, this should change the projected boundaries but only a minor amount. You're right that a bunch of tweaks and changes compounded into what eventually became a huge mess. On Reddit I called it a "mess of compromises" as they tried to balance out the player demand for accurate ranking with the developer demand for activity and retention. I'm glad they decided to streamline a lot of the more convoluted elements of the ladder. It will make things less confusing overall, and in this ladder, that's sorely needed. On April 28 2015 11:56 Adastrom wrote: What I don't get is why are there so many pros stuck in diamond league? People like Jaedong, Stardust, Kane etc are stuck in diamond with 1k + points and 80+% winrates. It doesn't make sense. It makes perfect sense (in that it's explainable). Let's say these top pros have MMRs of 2500. Master league covers 2000-2400. The "lowball" effect of initial conservative placement for players in rating calibration puts them a league lower than they're supposed to be, i.e., Diamond. They're already above the top end of Master and staying there because obviously they're amazing. Without going back down into the designated Master range, they won't get promoted into Master league. So that's one bug. The other bug is that they weren't invited to GM league when it opened up. That's the part that really doesn't make sense, and is a much more serious bug. On April 28 2015 12:33 Cyro wrote: There's no way to balance the league system without demotions. The best case scenario is that it starts off with the target % (say, 20%) and then inflates in a very top-heavy way before being reset in 8 weeks Demotions... demotions aren't as necessary as people think they are, I believe. Let's say the MMR boundary for Master league is 2000. What this will mean is anytime anyone crosses above 2000 MMR, they will earn the Master badge, even if it's just one game on a lucky streak. That will inflate Master league a little bit. But the number of players actually above 2000 MMR -- actually in the Master rating range -- will still be around 2% no matter how many Master badges adorn people's profiles. That's because as many people who go from 1950 to 2050 will drop from 2050 to 1950, and that's just the natural flow of ladder. Players who aren't above 2000 by the season roll won't get back into Master the following season (assuming the boundaries don't shift). It works itself out. This is just another reason why Nios.kr provides information that can be easily misinterpreted =) | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
Demotions... demotions aren't as necessary as people think they are, I believe. Let's say the MMR boundary for Master league is 2000. What this will mean is anytime anyone crosses above 2000 MMR, they will earn the Master badge, even if it's just one game on a lucky streak. That will inflate Master league a little bit. But the number of players actually above 2000 MMR -- actually in the Master rating range -- will still be around 2% no matter how many Master badges adorn people's profiles. They've made it so that you can be promoted with ANY uncertainty and you also don't need to be a comfortable amount past the MMR boundry, if you ever hit it once then you'll be promoted til the end of the season. That will make it inflate FAR faster than it has in the past | ||
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tokinho
United States792 Posts
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Exitor45
United States72 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12279 Posts
On April 28 2015 12:57 Cyro wrote: They've made it so that you can be promoted with ANY uncertainty and you also don't need to be a comfortable amount past the MMR boundry, if you ever hit it once then you'll be promoted til the end of the season. That will make it inflate FAR faster than it has in the past I mean, you're absolutely right, but I don't know if that's a real problem per se. Unless you're approaching badges from the perspective of rarity and prestige, then yes there is an argument to be made. Statistically speaking it is a benign issue. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
On April 28 2015 13:26 Excalibur_Z wrote: I mean, you're absolutely right, but I don't know if that's a real problem per se. Unless you're approaching badges from the perspective of rarity and prestige, then yes there is an argument to be made. Statistically speaking it is a benign issue. Previously we could say "I'm in diamond league, so i'm approximately in the top 20%" now, 6 weeks into the season, 30% of the ladder might have diamond and it's really not clear at all where you stand. For example, blizzard have said they will give LOTV beta to top 20% of the ladder - you have no way of knowing if you're included or not. | ||
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MaestroMaus
Netherlands23 Posts
On April 28 2015 13:35 Cyro wrote: Previously we could say "I'm in diamond league, so i'm approximately in the top 20%" now, 6 weeks into the season, 30% of the ladder might have diamond and it's really not clear at all where you stand. For example, blizzard have said they will give LOTV beta to top 20% of the ladder - you have no way of knowing if you're included or not. Edit; Sorry I realize now that you meant it as a hypothetical example. That said; it's still hard with the division system to know. I mean; whats top 20% translate to? GM through top gold? GM through top plat? No one can tell for sure where the line is right now. Only Blizzard can. | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
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