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United States12252 Posts
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/18792768/starcraft-ii-ladder-update-april-27-2015-4-27-2015
Should provide some new information to players who haven't been closely following the ladder changes. As korona and I mentioned previously, there was no MMR reset. Instead, players were thrust into "rating calibration" which is intended for new players to quickly ascertain their proper ratings. This period lasts about 25 games.
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With the new ladder season upon us, many players have already noticed the effects of some new changes that we’ve implemented. With some adjustments previously made in Season 1, the new season provided an opportunity to implement a larger set of changes that would be risky or impossible to implement mid-season. We’d like to review the changes and how they will affect the matchmaking and ranking system.
Issues in the New Season
Before we go over the changes, a few issues have popped up in the new season and caused some confusion. We’d like to address those issues to help provide some clarity.
MMR Adjustments
Contrary to claims from some in the community, player ratings in Season 2 haven’t been reset. Instead, player ratings have been adjusted proportionally and ladder placement matches have been reset to help give players a placement that more closely reflects their actual overall rating.
However, a reason that many players believed player ratings were reset was due to an unintended side effect. The clearing of placement games unintentionally triggered an additional piece of ladder promotion logic normally intended for new players.
The “New Player” Logic
When a new player plays their first matches, the system assesses their performance in order to determine their MMR rating. The system also pairs this rating with another piece of logic called “uncertainty”. Uncertainty represents how confident the system is in your current rating. MMR and uncertainty are updated after every match and the system progressively attempts to predict your skill in relation to other players.
Early in development, some players were having too much trouble progressing through leagues. With a high level of uncertainty in their MMR, there was the potential for them to be placed in a league that exceeded their actual skill level. Due to this, the “new player” logic was built into the system to help ensure that newer players were more conservatively placed. This offers a better sense of progression as new players are given an opportunity to be promoted into new leagues once the system is more confident in their actual skill level.
In the current system, it takes around 25 games to pass the “new player” game boundary. This is the point in which the player’s uncertainty level has decreased to a point that the system is confident it has an accurate assessment of the player’s skill level.
While this logic has affected players’ initial league placement in the new season, we believe that all our active players will quickly get into the league they deserve. We apologize to any players who worked hard to achieve their rank and felt that we stripped it from them.
Problems During the Season Roll
The season roll timing has also led to some confusion. Things didn't quite go as planned, and while we have a high level of confidence in the math we applied to adjust ratings, we ran into a few implementation issues very close to the season boundary. We extended the season roll to provide more time to sort out these issues, but it wasn’t correctly scheduled in all regions. CN, KR/TW, and SEA rolled into Season 2 before we could deploy our MMR adjustments. While it wasn’t our intention to have different MMR adjustments in different regions, it does give us a chance to measure how the changes perform against a baseline and then respond to concerns from players in the next season.
Changes for This Season
Now we’d like to outline some of the changes we made for Season 2. While we touched upon some of these in our previous ladder update, we have a few additional changes to review.
Removed “MMR Decay”
“MMR decay” attempted to simulate the skill loss that would occur for an inactive player by lowering their MMR after a certain period of inactivity. While this functioned as expected for a period of time, eventually activity patterns from some players caused this functionality to have undesired effects. Now that it has been removed, inactive players will no longer see their MMR rating affected.
Proportionally Adjusted Player Ratings
Since we were unable to trace the effects of “MMR decay” on all player accounts, we have applied a proportional adjustment to accounts that we could positively identify as being decayed. Players in Diamond and above should retain their overall position and should be promoted into their proper league soon. For everyone who has been adjusted, the system has been tuned to more quickly adjust to changes in player skill. If you feel your rank is too low, please give the system 10-30 games to catch up to your current skill level. Unfortunately, the effects of “MMR Decay” for players who were only partially active in previous seasons have also caused a shift in higher players ratings that is only now being felt. Players in the Gold to Diamond league range should find their rating adjusted quicker to start the season. Players in Masters and above should still retain their overall rating but may need to break through the “low ball” barrier.
Removed League Threshold Checks
Previously, checks were in place requiring players to progress past the league threshold by a certain win percentage before a promotion. This was so players near this threshold would not ”rubber-band” back and forth between higher and lower leagues as they won and lost matches. This logic is no longer necessary given that mid-season demotions were removed some time ago. Players will now be promoted the moment their MMR meets the requirement of the new league.
Players on Win Streaks Can Now be Promoted
Previously, when a player went on a winning streak the system became less certain it was accurately assessing the skill level of the player. Thus, a league promotion would not occur until the player lost and the system was more certain of where the player should be placed. This behavior has been changed so that players on win streaks will be promoted as soon as they’re eligible.
Tightened the Rating Range When Finding a Match
When looking to find a match for a player in matchmaking, the system would previously look for opponents within a certain rating range. We’ve adjusted this behavior in the new season and tightened the rating range. This should allow for more consistent matching between players of similar skill level.
Re-adjusted League Distribution Percentages and Starting MMR for New Players
We’ve also re-adjusted the league distribution percentages and the starting MMR for new players to compensate for all the changes above.
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Sounds good overall. But I really hope that they'll do a major redesign of the whole ladder in LotV. The current system feels stale and not very motivating.
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On April 28 2015 05:57 virpi wrote:
Sounds good overall. But I really hope that they'll do a major redesign of the whole ladder in LotV. The current system feels stale and not very motivating.
The numbers of the system are very good, as long as you play enough games you'll play against people who you should be playing. The issue is the way superficial stuff like leagues, divisions, etc work.
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On April 28 2015 06:03 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 05:57 virpi wrote:
Sounds good overall. But I really hope that they'll do a major redesign of the whole ladder in LotV. The current system feels stale and not very motivating. The numbers of the system are very good, as long as you play enough games you'll play against people who you should be playing. The issue is the way superficial stuff like leagues, divisions, etc work.
I don't think that's the issue. The longtime complaint is just how depersonalized the SCII ladder feels. This blog from GamaSutra is being included in a post that I'm working on on how to improve the ladder and b.net experience. It's called Creating a Better Context for Competitive Play & Mastery: Critiquing Starcraft & League. There are a lot of great ideas in here for integrating the ladder and players in a way that makes it feel more like a community. I'm sure a lot of this is being addressed in the design of automated tournaments, but there's a lot to chew on in there.
I'll be posting my write-up soon hopefully.
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It was better when 1% masters only, that made an elite league just before GM. But now everyone can be master it's pretty bad
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Except everyone isn't in master. I think the 200 cap on GM is pretty weird and pointless. Why not make it unlimited and let anyone who reaches an ELO threshold or ELO percentage threshold to rank up from masters to GM?
Then in GM, it's the fight for #1 or top 10 or w/e.
I've been looking at CSGO ladder and HS ladder and I feel that sc2's ladder can definitely use some changes, including getting rid of the pointless divisions.
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We’ve also re-adjusted the league distribution percentages and the starting MMR for new players to compensate for all the changes above.
So if there is no mid season demotion, won't that eventually make the upper leagues have more players towards the end of the season than they are supposed to have? Master league is already almost double than it was supposed to have before (2%) or what are the new percentages supposed to be like?
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United Kingdom20344 Posts
So if there is no mid season demotion, won't that eventually make the upper leagues have more players towards the end of the season than they are supposed to have?
Especially since they made promotions INTO the leagues much easier than they were before (you can be promoted with a high uncertainty and you can also be promoted immediately instead of having to average higher than the needed MMR) then i can't imagine anything other than league bloating over time.
Such is life when you can't be demoted. Every change like this makes me wonder what blizzard actually wants for leagues, why they're using them instead of an MMR display and who the target audience is - because it's not me or anybody i know that plays the game 5 years after launch
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Still can't understand why former GMs are stuck in diamond and former mid masters are in GM now
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Top GM eu is stucked in diamond but everything is working, good to now.
On April 28 2015 07:05 SuperHofmann wrote:
Still can't understand why former GMs are stuck in diamond and former mid masters are in GM now
the latter is easy, there are at least 100 available spots since most top and mid gms are stucked in diamond.
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Canada8160 Posts
Previously, when a player went on a winning streak the system became less certain it was accurately assessing the skill level of the player. Thus, a league promotion would not occur until the player lost
I don't even know what to say to this
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United States12252 Posts
On April 28 2015 06:18 Deathstar wrote:
Except everyone isn't in master. I think the 200 cap on GM is pretty weird and pointless. Why not make it unlimited and let anyone who reaches an ELO threshold or ELO percentage threshold to rank up from masters to GM?
Then in GM, it's the fight for #1 or top 10 or w/e.
I've been looking at CSGO ladder and HS ladder and I feel that sc2's ladder can definitely use some changes, including getting rid of the pointless divisions.
That's sort of how it works already. Kinda. It picks the top 200 MMR people and puts a marker at the #200 guy's rating at the time of league creation. For the rest of the season, you have to climb above that marker to get promoted into GM. If the #200 guy's rating was very high, that could mean slots that opened up due to inactivity wouldn't be filled very quickly. If it wasn't that high, it would be a mad dash, first-come first-served for players above that rating to play a game and fill that slot. It has its pros and cons certainly.
On April 28 2015 07:07 Jer99 wrote:Show nested quote +Previously, when a player went on a winning streak the system became less certain it was accurately assessing the skill level of the player. Thus, a league promotion would not occur until the player lost I don't even know what to say to this
I actually thought this was taken out a long time ago, but apparently it was still in. What I know was taken out was removing the win streak bias for players crossing the top edge of the next league. For example, if you were in Gold, you would get promoted either until you stabilized somewhere within Platinum or you would get an automatic promotion into Platinum once your MMR reached the Diamond zone. But yeah, the stabilization requirement definitely isn't necessary now that there are no midseason demotions.
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On April 28 2015 05:53 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Removed League Threshold Checks
Previously, checks were in place requiring players to progress past the league threshold by a certain win percentage before a promotion. This was so players near this threshold would not ”rubber-band” back and forth between higher and lower leagues as they won and lost matches. This logic is no longer necessary given that mid-season demotions were removed some time ago. Players will now be promoted the moment their MMR meets the requirement of the new league.
This is the problem .Currently to get promoted from Dia to Master you need at least 25 games and have an mmr that is classified as "master" league to get promoted. HOWEVER, if your mmr has exceeded this "threshold" before 25 games then you will NEVER get promoted out of diamond. This is the reason why progamers are all stuck in diamond. They win the majority of their first 25 games, since you know they are progamers... some even going 25-0 hence why diamond is the "new GM".
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On April 28 2015 07:20 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 05:53 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Removed League Threshold Checks
Previously, checks were in place requiring players to progress past the league threshold by a certain win percentage before a promotion. This was so players near this threshold would not ”rubber-band” back and forth between higher and lower leagues as they won and lost matches. This logic is no longer necessary given that mid-season demotions were removed some time ago. Players will now be promoted the moment their MMR meets the requirement of the new league.
This is the problem .Currently to get promoted from Dia to Master you need at least 25 games and have an mmr that is classified as "master" league to get promoted. HOWEVER, if your mmr has exceeded this "threshold" before 25 games then you will NEVER get promoted out of diamond. This is the reason why progamers are all stuck in diamond. They win the majority of their first 25 games, since you know they are progamers... some even going 25-0 hence why diamond is the "new GM".
Well their MMR was too high from the beginning, even if they do not win all the 25 games (which they do not since they play other pros with high MMRs). As mentioned MMR's weren't actually reset, but they were placed in a lower league (diamond instead of masters) because of the new player rule. So regardless of the 25 games, they are stuck in diamond with high GM MMR. Maybe losing all 25 games would've tanked their MMR enough to get into Masters? Not sure.
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On April 28 2015 07:07 Jer99 wrote:Show nested quote +Previously, when a player went on a winning streak the system became less certain it was accurately assessing the skill level of the player. Thus, a league promotion would not occur until the player lost I don't even know what to say to this
This has been known since a long time ago right? It really obviously felt like that's what was happening :D
And I mean, why not, you don't have an idea of how strong you are until you lose to someone stronger.
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sometimes i really think blizzard need to post
Fuck you all. Play the game, you will be sorted out eventually as it is a computer algorithm thats being applied here. It isnt going to be perfect all of the time but generally speaking and through testing it mostly is. So fuck off with ur whining, stop being a bronze player thinking ur low masters
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Thanks blizzard
Now i can spend a couple of days to set my acc back to masters
From bronze ....
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Good MMR decay must be removed nice that they finaly did
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ok, small reboot, 50 games to catch up, good to know^^
I am glad blizzard is trying to improve the ladder even if it's a small step in the right way.
Removed "mmr decay" is a good think as inactity and skills are not really linked at low leagues. However i think a decay for inactivity should still be in effect at high leagues.
With no more League Threshold Checks and with a fix on the Win Streaks, i hope the boost period to master will be decreased. Easier promotions can help improve ladder experience for new players.
"Tightened the Rating Range" i a bit concerned about this one. +30secondes to search and will it really help to find similar skill level player ?
League Distribution,..., better to show mmr or to add more leagues, it's still missing something.
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On April 28 2015 06:03 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 05:57 virpi wrote:
Sounds good overall. But I really hope that they'll do a major redesign of the whole ladder in LotV. The current system feels stale and not very motivating. The numbers of the system are very good, as long as you play enough games you'll play against people who you should be playing. The issue is the way superficial stuff like leagues, divisions, etc work.
I'm really into statistics and tables. And I'm a competitive person.
I don't want to be number 59 in diamond league division "zergling chobo". I want to know my exact rank, I want to know how many wins I'm away from being eligible for a promotion, and I don't want an obfuscated ladder system in which basically every number you see on screen is absolutely meaningless, because the only thing that matters is your mmr.
Screw bonus pool, screw decay (yay, they got rid of that!), screw the "favored"-system. Just give me opponents around my mmr rating and show the f...ing ladder as it is.
Yes, I know that there are sites like nios.kr, I'm already using them. But what's the problem in having all that jazz in-game?
I never understood that dumb 6-league-random-subdivision-top-something-bullshit. Having relative league distributions is only fine if the people know why they are where they are.
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EPT
