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ProTech
United States433 Posts
On October 02 2015 14:18 Cascade wrote: Is Destiny featured? I thought he got removed for above mentioned "general assholery"? Haven't seen him in the list in a long time, but maybe that's just time-zones or something. Or he doesn't stream much.  Yes, he's still featured. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On October 02 2015 14:18 Cascade wrote: Is Destiny featured? I thought he got removed for above mentioned "general assholery"? Haven't seen him in the list in a long time, but maybe that's just time-zones or something. Or he doesn't stream much. He doesn't stream SC2 anymore. You might have "Other Games" disabled on your sidebar, or just not have seen him. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On October 02 2015 15:25 jalstar wrote: He doesn't stream SC2 anymore. You might have "Other Games" disabled on your sidebar, or just not have seen him. Oh, that'd be it then, sorry. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
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chillaful
Germany25 Posts
*facepalm* | ||
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5c0rp10n
Germany342 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Regarding Viewbotting: 1. We neither clear nor accuse Winter of viewbotting. Yes, it definitely happened, but there's no smoking gun that proves who did it. Again there is no way to confirm either case beyond reasonable doubt. It is true that the most sensible explanation of the events was that he botted himself, but "most sensible" does not mean "true". 2. The parties that could have the information have decided that the case isn't worth pursuing. Therefore, we cannot obtain the information necessary to make a definitive decision on this specific matter. 3. Team Liquid should not act like a high court clearing or condemning someone without complete information or absolute certainty. 4. However, Winter was the clear benefactor of viewbotting. That's why he had to be punished. Regarding Defeaturing: 1. Winter was defeatured because there was no way to ascertain whether or not he had a viewer count worthy of being featured. 2. Winter received the benefit of being featured even though he did not deserve it yet, which likely boosted his stats 3. He was therefore defeatured and put on probation, where he would have to a.) show he had a large enough legitimate viewerbase; b.) avoid further scandal; and c.) prove that his stream was "healthy". Regarding Refeaturing: 1. The information Winter provided, which he did not collect himself (aside from screenshotting), is considered private information. Team Liquid is not allowed to reveal it. While we understand that everyone wants to know what it is, we won't break the trust of persons or organizations because of public pressure. 2. If Winter or the organizations where the information came from want to reveal the information, then they are welcome to do so and we will share our rationale for our decision. 3. Based on the hard data (not observation like chat density), it was extrapolated that Winter has a high enough viewer count to be featured. In fact, his approximate numbers look very healthy. 4. Winter being refeatured is not an acquittal. Other observations: 1. One of the funniest things in this whole mess is the insistence of "the most logical situation". It's true that the most logical situation was that Winter botted himself. However, it's also the most logical situation for Winter to no longer bot himself because he was already caught and because his legitimate numbers (extrapolated from the data provided) are already high enough to be featured and to be #1 for SC2 on twitch. It's actually illogical for him to keep up botting because it harms his reputation and keeps people suspicious. HOWEVER, this being "the most logical situation" does not clear him of botting as much as the original scenario does not prove he was the botter. Sadly, finding out the truth is beyond Team Liquid's capacity, and the only thing we can make a ruling on is whether or not he is good enough to be featured. 2. Most of the Team Liquid staff involved in this decision were very much against refeaturing him when the probation period expired. In fact, many still feel very sour about doing this because of personal reasons. However, we can't deny that the information he provided was better than a lot of what was used as evidence against him. Eventually, everyone agreed that we were compelled to refeature him. | ||
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Creager
Germany1885 Posts
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Hypertension
United States802 Posts
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CaLiguLaa
3 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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Dickbutt
Korea (North)129 Posts
On October 02 2015 20:00 lichter wrote: While I find it flattering that people seem to think of TL as a high arbiter of esports law, we can only make decisions based on what information we can acquire. In this case, the information showed that Winter has a large enough legitimate viewer base. That's all. Everything else, we can neither prove nor disprove with hard evidence. So because he can convince you that "most" of his viewers are legit, he's back? Without any confirmation or denial, you're simply bringing him back because you have nothing to accuse him with anymore since all the bots listed from Nick have either died or no longer follow Winter. The dude peaks like 4K viewers at 5 AM, putting my personal opinions aside that's really shady and Team Liquid needs more to their case than word of mouth and how many subscribers Winter has. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 02 2015 20:12 Dickbutt wrote: So because he can convince you that "most" of his viewers are legit, he's back? Without any confirmation or denial, you're simply bringing him back because you have nothing to accuse him with anymore since all the bots listed from Nick have either died or no longer follow Winter. The dude peaks like 4K viewers at 5 AM, putting my personal opinions aside that's really shady and Team Liquid needs more to their case than word of mouth and how many subscribers Winter has. 5 AM where? | ||
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Dickbutt
Korea (North)129 Posts
USA. That's where most viewers for nearly all streams come from aside from some European players. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
However, it's also the most logical situation for Winter to no longer bot himself because he was already caught and because his legitimate numbers (extrapolated from the data provided) are already high enough to be featured and to be #1 for SC2 on twitch. It's actually illogical for him to keep up botting because it harms his reputation and keeps people suspicious. This makes no sense. If he keeps the viewbots, then he can continue to argue that he never viewbotted in the first place. IF the viewercount suddenly drops by 200% on the other hand, it's to clear to everyone. By continuing to bot he will cotninue to have the support for those who think one is innocent until proven guilty and that we don't have enogh evidence and blablabla. | ||
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CaLiguLaa
3 Posts
On October 02 2015 20:00 lichter wrote: While I find it flattering that people seem to think of TL as a high arbiter of esports law, we can only make decisions based on what information we can acquire. In this case, the information showed that Winter has a large enough legitimate viewer base. That's all. Everything else, we can neither prove nor disprove with hard evidence. And yet you said a few hours ago: "We neither clear nor accuse Winter of viewbotting. Yes, it definitely happened, but there's no smoking gun that proves who did it. Again there is no way to confirm either case beyond reasonable doubt. It is true that the most sensible explanation of the events was that he botted himself, but "most sensible" does not mean "true". So you accept that he is still probably viewbotting and yet still add him back? Why would you do that knowing that any 'legitimate' viewer base was obviously grown from him viewbotting? Nobody is saying you're this esports arbiter or anything of the sort. It's YOUR website, we're complaining about you guys adding him back to the featured streams on your own website. What Twitch or anyone else does is their own business. You featuring him again is just a smack in the face of honest streamers and it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. | ||
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CaLiguLaa
3 Posts
On October 02 2015 21:49 Dickbutt wrote: USA. That's where most viewers for nearly all streams come from aside from some European players. For SC2? Hardly. Most of the biggest SC2 streamers are EU and stream at EU friendly times. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
There's no way that Winter still isn't viewbotting. | ||
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Magnifico
1958 Posts
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