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On May 07 2015 14:20 lichter wrote:
<h2>ProTech's Last Chance</h2>
After some careful thought, I've decided to give ProTech one last opportunity on the featured streamers list. He has the viewer count to be included, but he's had several infractions before. He's already received two strikes, and we are giving him way more leniency than others would expect. However, should he do anything that forces us to defeature him again, it will be for the very last time and without any possibility of reconsideration, ever. With a third strike, he will never be featured again, even if he wins Blizzcon. While Team Liquid believes in forgiving those that show sincere repentance and try their best to improve their behavior, we do have our limits. For Protech, it's one last chance.
Should we, as viewers, be aware of what would constitute a third strike? And should we be notifying you or other TL mods if he goes back to being a bad, bad boy?
Or will you guys be 100% taking care of everything?
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On May 13 2015 04:47 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 04:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Out of curiosity, why are you reapplying to be featured again? You've said in many threads (monthly stream threads, your stream/ fan threads, etc.) that not only do you detest the criteria and wishywashiness of being featured on TL, but you've also had just as many (if not more) viewers without being featured? I'm guessing it's because of the OP, which clearly describes the exact criteria for being featured from now on.
Sure, although that's from months ago. But it's all good; hopefully everything works out for him!
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On May 07 2015 14:27 sdjklahsjask wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 14:20 lichter wrote:
<h2>ProTech's Last Chance</h2>
After some careful thought, I've decided to give ProTech one last opportunity on the featured streamers list. He has the viewer count to be included, but he's had several infractions before. He's already received two strikes, and we are giving him way more leniency than others would expect. However, should he do anything that forces us to defeature him again, it will be for the very last time and without any possibility of reconsideration, ever. With a third strike, he will never be featured again, even if he wins Blizzcon. While Team Liquid believes in forgiving those that show sincere repentance and try their best to improve their behavior, we do have our limits. For Protech, it's one last chance. yo i dont watch protech but whats wrong with him. hasnt he been a part of the community since bw?
With trying to stay as ambiguous and general as possible, he's done and said a lot of things in the past (both on stream and on TL) that have been viewed as inappropriate by his viewers and the community. And as such, he's been defeatured and refeatured several times already.
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I'd like to apply again. Content producer (www.youtube.com/ketroc) and regular streamer (www.twitch.tv/ketroc). My viewer numbers since I last applied (late April - present) is 153 mean average, and 191 median average. Conti's streamer viewership list has me at 143 average for May.
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On June 17 2015 14:50 Laertes wrote:Hey Teamliquid. I would like to say a few things about the Winter fiasco. Looking closely, we have scanty evidence at best that Winter viewbotted(Winter's horrible handling of this dire situation didn't help, sure, but we must look past it because hard evidence disagrees with Reddit, in addition to rational common sense), we have zero evidence that it aided him to get to the top, and also he was vouched by Twitch, which always launches quality investigative reports(I can't help you if you believe the conspiracy theories about Winter giving twitch money to get him off the hook.) and has a real vested interest through sponsors to keep their channels clean. Since the "ban winter" circlejerk has died down, I think you should re-feature him. Also, and for the record, NickHotS' post never proved anything in the first place. The "80,000 word writeup" seems to have been fabricated and doesn't actually exist, as if you download the .rar file from the original post, it is unintelligible gibberish, and the .txt file has been removed. This is a sham TL, and you've been duped just as everyone has been duped. The controversy never existed outside of Reddit, and the disgusting anti-winter sentiment that exists there can die there. If you want more info just PM me. The "fake donations", the "viewbot scandal", the "twitch conspiracy", its all borne of the fact that NickHotS deviously played on the fears of the community. So many people wanted to believe that Winter was viewbotting that the moment some asshole from another community puts a bunch of links in a Reddit thread clearly designed to set off a witchhunt it just blows up. Notice how this post on reddit was ignored while this post has 'caused massive harm to Winter's brand. Which one is better argued and presented TL? I think you know the answer to that one. It's clear as day!
I'll save them the time and respond to this for you. It's not the fact that Winter himself viewbotted, though it is the reasonable, deducible answer, but that someone who wanted to help benefit him in an essentially illegal manner did. Winter had ~a few hundred concurrent viewers prior to the whole viewbotting thing so for you to say that it didn't help him rise in popularity, never helped him get partnered, an NVIDIA partnership, and so on is slightly off mark I think. Being vouched by Twitch does not mean very much in this situation. All it means is they have no hard evidence to ban him (generally they only do this with non-partnered channels and only give you 24hrs to contest the ban, in which case, if they do not find the evidence compelling they perm ban you. Twitch is very gracious with it's partners - which is good imo) with the information they have gathered. Due to the fact that they cannot say for certain, just like none of us can, whether he is the perpetrator in this instance or not. The real point is this: People who magically grow from hundreds to thousands concurrent and the #1 spot in the directory so that they can quickly build up a real fanbase are doing it in an illegitimate way and are screwing over other, legitimate streamers whether those people are big entertainers or not. Everyone else loses in this situation, and it's simply bad. (unless you're winter - thus the problem)
It seems like the person who hasn't known how this has all developed in the streaming world is yourself, which is a bit unfortunate for the tone you are taking with TL while trying to get him re-featured. TL took their time on this decision, and while I can't say I'm a fan of all the mods/people who make choices around here here, I can say that as a player and streamer who has known of winter since he was in clan zl as freebird or whatever I can vouch that he is certainly someone who profited unfairly compared to others.
Just fyi, many other streamers have mentioned this live on their streams prior to this whole thing happening. I mean, anyone can see how he rose to popularity simply didn't make any sense given the content and so forth. He magically showed up and was ALWAYS #1 on the stream list, which if you know when it started happening was beyond questionable for the time. Thus, it appears once again that it is your lack of knowledge to say that this was a non-issue outside of reddit, and well, in case you didn't notice there is still at least 1 or more people in the SC2 directory of twitch who viewbot which I could name off the top of my head so it's not like people make this stuff up.
So tl;dr for you:
It's not who viewbotted it is how one person gained from repeated viewbotting. The intent there is that this was done purposely, by whoever, and thus TL does not want to support such streams when there are much more hard working individuals out there trying to make it in the big Twitch world.
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Canada11349 Posts
Woah, ease off there a bit Laertes. Kyo wasn't insulting you and answered fairly.
Just by the by, but there might be a problem with whatever program you are using to unzip NickHoTS's rar file because it opened up just fine for me with 7zip a minute a go.
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On June 18 2015 01:45 Laertes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 17:52 -Kyo- wrote:On June 17 2015 14:50 Laertes wrote:Hey Teamliquid. I would like to say a few things about the Winter fiasco. Looking closely, we have scanty evidence at best that Winter viewbotted(Winter's horrible handling of this dire situation didn't help, sure, but we must look past it because hard evidence disagrees with Reddit, in addition to rational common sense), we have zero evidence that it aided him to get to the top, and also he was vouched by Twitch, which always launches quality investigative reports(I can't help you if you believe the conspiracy theories about Winter giving twitch money to get him off the hook.) and has a real vested interest through sponsors to keep their channels clean. Since the "ban winter" circlejerk has died down, I think you should re-feature him. Also, and for the record, NickHotS' post never proved anything in the first place. The "80,000 word writeup" seems to have been fabricated and doesn't actually exist, as if you download the .rar file from the original post, it is unintelligible gibberish, and the .txt file has been removed. This is a sham TL, and you've been duped just as everyone has been duped. The controversy never existed outside of Reddit, and the disgusting anti-winter sentiment that exists there can die there. If you want more info just PM me. The "fake donations", the "viewbot scandal", the "twitch conspiracy", its all borne of the fact that NickHotS deviously played on the fears of the community. So many people wanted to believe that Winter was viewbotting that the moment some asshole from another community puts a bunch of links in a Reddit thread clearly designed to set off a witchhunt it just blows up. Notice how this post on reddit was ignored while this post has 'caused massive harm to Winter's brand. Which one is better argued and presented TL? I think you know the answer to that one. It's clear as day! I'll save them the time and respond to this for you. It's not the fact that Winter himself viewbotted, though it is the reasonable, deducible answer, but that someone who wanted to help benefit him in an essentially illegal manner did. Winter had ~a few hundred concurrent viewers prior to the whole viewbotting thing so for you to say that it didn't help him rise in popularity, never helped him get partnered, an NVIDIA partnership, and so on is slightly off mark I think. Being vouched by Twitch does not mean very much in this situation. All it means is they have no hard evidence to ban him (generally they only do this with non-partnered channels and only give you 24hrs to contest the ban, in which case, if they do not find the evidence compelling they perm ban you. Twitch is very gracious with it's partners - which is good imo) with the information they have gathered. Due to the fact that they cannot say for certain, just like none of us can, whether he is the perpetrator in this instance or not. The real point is this: People who magically grow from hundreds to thousands concurrent and the #1 spot in the directory so that they can quickly build up a real fanbase are doing it in an illegitimate way and are screwing over other, legitimate streamers whether those people are big entertainers or not. Everyone else loses in this situation, and it's simply bad. (unless you're winter - thus the problem) It seems like the person who hasn't known how this has all developed in the streaming world is yourself, which is a bit unfortunate for the tone you are taking with TL while trying to get him re-featured. TL took their time on this decision, and while I can't say I'm a fan of all the mods/people who make choices around here here, I can say that as a player and streamer who has known of winter since he was in clan zl as freebird or whatever I can vouch that he is certainly someone who profited unfairly compared to others. Just fyi, many other streamers have mentioned this live on their streams prior to this whole thing happening. I mean, anyone can see how he rose to popularity simply didn't make any sense given the content and so forth. He magically showed up and was ALWAYS #1 on the stream list, which if you know when it started happening was beyond questionable for the time. Thus, it appears once again that it is your lack of knowledge to say that this was a non-issue outside of reddit, and well, in case you didn't notice there is still at least 1 or more people in the SC2 directory of twitch who viewbot which I could name off the top of my head so it's not like people make this stuff up. So tl;dr for you: It's not who viewbotted it is how one person gained from repeated viewbotting. The intent there is that this was done purposely, by whoever, and thus TL does not want to support such streams when there are much more hard working individuals out there trying to make it in the big Twitch world. Hi. I find individuals like you disgusting. Throughout your post you proceeded to passive aggressively insult me because you think I am a nobody and because you don't like Winter. To SAY that I am unknowledgeable because I frankly disagree with you is an insult to my intelligence, and telling of your immaturity. Let me just explain one thing: There is hardly evidence that Winter was viewbotting, and that is why twitch cleared him.(Even your argument here makes the assumption that the moment which Winter got above 200-300 viewers he was 'bottling, which was disproven statistically on /r/Starcraft.) I know your type, you are envious, spiteful, and when you see that the man who's on top is "view bottling" it gives you karmic release huh? "That's why no one wants to watch me! It's not my dry personality or my lack of connections or my inability to affect people with a clever hook, it'd cause the top dog was a cheat and he's stealing all the viewers who still watch Starcraft!" I won't veil my insults, not like you have done. You don't understand my points, you don't understand the injustice, and then you have the gall to strawmam my points and say I have a lack of knowledge of the situation.Winter was accused of viewbotting many times, each time he was accused reasonable people said "we don't have enough evidence". NickHoTS somehow connected him to a network of bots that "appeared on his stream". Did anyone bother to double check Nick's work? Did anyone bother to say "Wait a minute guys, maybe we're going too far". The answer is no, because secretly in their hearts every small time streamer WANTED Winter to viewbot. They wanted it to be true and so it was. And people like you perpetuate the lie, keep it alive so your ego doesn't shatter. It's honestly the most disgusting thing, and I'm not gonna lie: you make me sick. Oh and by the way, the bots were banned and he STILL is #1. Twitch has a vested interest in stuff like this, and you imply that their search was half-baked because "it's a conspiwacy". You streamers all have the same stupid argument that makes no sense, and I bet it's all out of spite, show me some hard evidence that he is viewbotting, because otherwise, you'll have to admit he was only taken down from the feature list to accommodate envious jerks like you.
Hi. I am a partnered streamer on Twitch.TV and make more money than I wanted/have cared for from youtube revenue. I don't do content creation for money so I could care less what I, or anyone else for that matter, makes from gaming.
The fact remains this: Winter, or someone looking to benefit Winter, used bots to boost his channel's views. How do we know this? Well there are many reasons that this has been confirmed, both in this thread and elsewhere. I could sit here and explain to you tell tale signs of viewbotting, but it is clear you don't really have the patience to converse with me because I have questioned your knowledge/actual care for the subject, and I would think rightfully so after this sort of anticipated reply.
In any case, this direct correlation between high, fake viewership numbers and viewership retention, no matter how horrendous of a % it is, benefits him enormously in comparison to other hard working streamers. That is the basis on which action was taken as clearly stated from Mod posts in the thread.
Just btw, I have to say that your wording with 'conspiracy theory' around this whole issue seems to be on the wrong side of the fence. I think most people reading this who have a grasp on the situation, streaming competition, botting and so forth would question the bias put forth in your argument, especially when confirming to yourself that "They wanted it to be true and so it was." To me, it seems clear where the 'conspiracy theory' is coming from.
I am indifferent to the success of others in relation to myself on Twitch, but uh, I guess all I can say is that perhaps you should go back over the evidence a few more times with an open mind. 
ps; my name isn't ryo
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I love how laertes and ryo have this drama in multiple threads. Especially the waifu thing
Ok i guess have to say something related to OP. Uhh yeah i wish TL was not so strict on political correctness.
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On June 18 2015 01:45 Laertes wrote:
There is hardly evidence that Winter was viewbotting, and that is why twitch cleared him.
Twitch is a business not a justice system.
it is in their best interest to have viewer #s as large as possible.
when the fox is guarding the hen house a few hens sometimes go missing.
i have to compliment TL.Net's decision makers in this entire fiasco... they walked a tight rope and created an opening for Winter to do a mea culpa and build his brand. He chose not to take it.
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On June 18 2015 09:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 01:45 Laertes wrote:
There is hardly evidence that Winter was viewbotting, and that is why twitch cleared him.
Twitch is a business not a justice system. it is in their best interest to have viewer #s as large as possible. when the fox is guarding the hen house a few hens sometimes go missing. i have to compliment TL.Net's decision makers in this entire fiasco... they walked a tight rope and created an opening for Winter to do a mea culpa and build his brand. He chose not to take it.
Of all the arguments made about this issue, this has always struck me as the silliest one. Twitch regularly bans people for viewbotting, and believe it or not, but losing all credibility in front of the viewers and sponsors is not their main goal.
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On June 18 2015 09:30 Conti wrote: Twitch regularly bans people for viewbotting,
and this means they catch every viewbotter every time with 100% accuracy always?
they are not an independent party. so they'll always err on the side of caution and let borderline cases slide on through to keep their #s up.
On June 18 2015 09:30 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 09:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 18 2015 01:45 Laertes wrote:
There is hardly evidence that Winter was viewbotting, and that is why twitch cleared him.
Twitch is a business not a justice system. it is in their best interest to have viewer #s as large as possible. when the fox is guarding the hen house a few hens sometimes go missing. i have to compliment TL.Net's decision makers in this entire fiasco... they walked a tight rope and created an opening for Winter to do a mea culpa and build his brand. He chose not to take it. Of all the arguments made about this issue, this has always struck me as the silliest one. Twitch regularly bans people for viewbotting, and believe it or not, but losing all credibility in front of the viewers and sponsors is not their main goal.
when there is advertising dollars on the line i trust no one.
the bullshit publications pull off in canada to hit the magical 100,000 subsciber mark so they can up include national brands in their ad rates is unreal.
that includes publications backed by canada's biggest media organizations.
these publishers also go through their fake audit motions to appear legit.
i trust Twitch about as much as i trust Bell and Rogers.
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On March 21 2015 04:25 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2? Maybe dailies shortly after release?
vouch~
Stream numbers were pretty insane back in the early days of WoL. Day9 dailies I think hit the highest numbers- especially the early funday mondays.
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On June 18 2015 09:48 Joedaddy wrote:
Stream numbers were pretty insane back in the early days of WoL. Day9 dailies I think hit the highest numbers- especially the early funday mondays.
On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying.
in 2010 and early 2011
a $100 USD CraftCup would get 1,200 entrants and ImbaTV drew 5,000 to 10,000 viewers.
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On June 18 2015 09:48 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:25 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2? Maybe dailies shortly after release? vouch~ Stream numbers were pretty insane back in the early days of WoL. Day9 dailies I think hit the highest numbers- especially the early funday mondays.
Actually, even in early HotS personal streaming was big, look at the peak numbers for Stephano, Grubby, and DeMuslim.
Idra and Destiny have gotten over 10k as well, just not in 2013 or later as far as I can tell, since their popularity peaked earlier.
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/410571-top-50-streamers-in-april-2013-wcs-gstl-spl
edit: not entirely correct about Destiny, who had 10k viewers a few months ago according to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/484646-top-50-streamers-april-2015
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Regarding Winter, from the OP:
"We will be reviewing this decision in six months time, where if Winter is able to show us that his channel is no longer supported by viewbots and his viewership meets our minimum standard for featuring, we will re-feature Winter."
I will hold you to it, and that date is soon approaching. I never watch streams in general, but I feel that this has been very harsh treatment. Seems like he is still #1 though, so apparantly he retains viewers even without being featured which is good.
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On June 17 2015 14:50 Laertes wrote:
Hey Teamliquid. I would like to say a few things about the Winter fiasco.
.....
Hey, I must say I initially had the same thoughts. I regularly watch winter's stream (and never enter anything in his chat) and find his stream quite enjoying to watch. So intially I thought it was a fiasco as well.
But if you look really closely into the evidence given, I come to the same conclusion: there are quite a few bots in his channel. You can even find skype chat history messages between some guy: eggysc2 and the alleged developer/distributer/vendor of the chat bots. The eggysc2 channel has the same collection of fake twitch accounts used. I've even studied the twitch accounts followed by the bots. These accounts seem legit, but are from people who don't stream regularly and cannot have that many followers, impossible.
There still remains the question if he knowingly used the bots himself or someone else was testing bots on his channel. But since there are multiple days where these bots have been detected in his channel, the latter seems less likely.
Regardless of the bots (are they still there? I don't know), I still watch his channel. It is just as entertaining to me with or without the bots. I guess people should just decide for themselves to watch him, or not. Maybe TL will put him back on the featured list in september, maybe not. For now I have just added him to my 'favorites' so he will appear there anyways.
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EPT
