EPTHow long has it been since HotS? Why does Blizzard still sound so clueless? How is this not going to be a shitty expansion?
So many questions and so little confidence in Blizzard right now... For fuck's sake!
Legacy of the Void: Multiplayer Development Update - Page 19
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
How long has it been since HotS? Why does Blizzard still sound so clueless? How is this not going to be a shitty expansion? So many questions and so little confidence in Blizzard right now... For fuck's sake! | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On February 14 2015 01:54 TheDwf wrote: Adding units ≠ making things better or more interesting Removing units ≠ making things worse or more boring The important is reworking what exists. Among the Terran and Protoss ranks there are several candidates for that. As for Tempests, it was a typical addition for the sake of addition because they refused to address the state of the Carrier in the first place. LotV is the perfect opportunity for that. This. REMOVE THE TEMPEST (and the swarm host). That 3 expansions thing was doomed from start because Blizzard adamantly refuses to remove things that have been put into the live game. I was really happy when after HotS release, I read some interview stating that "[they] were already at a BW level number of units, and LotV could very well not add any unit". What a disappointment when LotV was announced. They add units over units, more and more complicated and less and less elegant over time, making this whole game a mess. I'm damn sure WoL's set of units could have been reworked into something great, add or take one unit for each race. Really great. I'm not so sure about a set of units that contains tempest, swarm host, etc., and has so many units in it overlap or irrelevance is bound to happen. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On February 14 2015 01:54 TheDwf wrote: Adding units ≠ making things better or more interesting Removing units ≠ making things worse or more boring The important is reworking what exists. Among the Terran and Protoss ranks there are several candidates for that. As for Tempests, it was a typical addition for the sake of addition because they refused to address the state of the Carrier in the first place. LotV is the perfect opportunity for that. Out of curiosity, do you consider that Zerg units are fine right now design-wise? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 14 2015 02:50 dUTtrOACh wrote: Am I the only one who thinks it's pretty half-assed of Blizzard to still be ironing out ideas for Legacy of the Void? How long has it been since HotS? Why does Blizzard still sound so clueless? How is this not going to be a shitty expansion? So many questions and so little confidence in Blizzard right now... For fuck's sake! Nope. That was my initial reaction to their Blizzcon presentation in which they showcased tons of half-assed stuff to begin with and then marked everything with "this is not final". Don't get me wrong, I'm still a blizzard fanboy. I like that they are doing the experimenting. I'm intrigued that they are sharing their unit design process with us. But from what I'm seeing, my hope is that the beta is not going to start in 2015 because they are still at the drawing desk. (Unless of course their beta is open end) | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On February 14 2015 03:18 Big J wrote: Nope. That was my initial reaction to their Blizzcon presentation in which they showcased tons of half-assed stuff to begin with and then marked everything with "this is not final". Don't get me wrong, I'm still a blizzard fanboy. I like that they are doing the experimenting. I'm intrigued that they are sharing their unit design process with us. But from what I'm seeing, my hope is that the beta is not going to start in 2015 because they are still at the drawing desk. (Unless of course their beta is open end) I actually disagree. I hope the beta starts soon for that very reason : because they look so damn clueless. We need to try things, to see how they work out on a great scale. Just hearing them hesitating and randomly throwing out their shitty MOBA ideas is just depressing. Start the beta, try things, scrap what's bad/retarded, make the beta last a year if needed. But I don't trust their design team enough. Only community feedback is going to put them back on the right tracks, and that is only going to happen when beta starts. EDIT : that's probably what you meant with "Unless of course their beta is open end", in which case we actually agree  | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On February 14 2015 03:26 [PkF] Wire wrote: I actually disagree. I hope the beta starts soon for that very reason : because they look so damn clueless. We need to try things, to see how they work out on a great scale. Just hearing them hesitating and randomly throwing out their shitty MOBA ideas is just depressing. Start the beta, try things, scrap what's bad/retarded, make the beta last a year if needed. But I don't trust their design team enough. Only community feedback is going to put them back on the right tracks, and that is only going to happen when beta starts. EDIT : that's probably what you meant with "Unless of course their beta is open end", in which case we actually agree I am personally not optimistic about "community feedback" while they showed repeatedly, and just showed again with this new update on LotV, that they either don't give a shit about community feedback or are just plain bad at reading/hearing it. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On February 14 2015 01:54 TheDwf wrote: Adding units ≠ making things better or more interesting Removing units ≠ making things worse or more boring The important is reworking what exists. Among the Terran and Protoss ranks there are several candidates for that. As for Tempests, it was a typical addition for the sake of addition because they refused to address the state of the Carrier in the first place. LotV is the perfect opportunity for that. it's an expansion though, it is not a balance patch, games get different in expansions, not just balanced | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 14 2015 03:26 [PkF] Wire wrote: I actually disagree. I hope the beta starts soon for that very reason : because they look so damn clueless. We need to try things, to see how they work out on a great scale. Just hearing them hesitating and randomly throwing out their shitty MOBA ideas is just depressing. Start the beta, try things, scrap what's bad/retarded, make the beta last a year if needed. But I don't trust their design team enough. Only community feedback is going to put them back on the right tracks, and that is only going to happen when beta starts. EDIT : that's probably what you meant with "Unless of course their beta is open end", in which case we actually agree Yeah, that's kind of what I meant with "open end beta". If they do the beta like you describe it, go for it asap. If beta means their WoL/HotS beta model with a release date more or less set in stone, then please keep it in alpha for as long as possible. | ||
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
Let's hope the best for the future development. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On February 14 2015 03:31 OtherWorld wrote: I am personally not optimistic about "community feedback" while they showed repeatedly, and just showed again with this new update on LotV, that they either don't give a shit about community feedback or are just plain bad at reading/hearing it. We have to be optimistic : we won't get other guys in charge. But I'm pretty sure they could make LotV a great game if : 1) they swallow their pride and stop thinking everything that's currently in the game has its place. It's easier to make a good game out of a few elegant units than out of a lot of unnecessarily intricate ones. 2) they swallow their pride and stop trying to make SC2 look like a MOBA wannabe. This is the only current competitive representative of the RTS genre, stick to the fundamentals. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13386 Posts
On February 14 2015 01:04 Vexon wrote: Maybe this is an unjustified or legitimate idea - please correct me if so - but I have a potential solution to the shortness of battles. Blizzard tried decreasing attack speed, but that just made battles less exciting. People have suggested attack dmg nerfs or health buffs, but those dont necessarily solve the problem. The way it seems to me, small battles are not the problem. Stalker vs reaper micro or pvp cheese battles are some of the most tense micro situations in HotS. The difficulty is deathball battles. Marines evaporate under colossus, marauders 1-shot stalkers, hydras die a lot. What if multiple units attacking the same unit did not deal the sum of their damages? Then there is no reason to have 6 colossus attacking the same marines - 2 is enough. Then the focus becomes not simply "massing enough damage" to kill the other's deathball, but splitting your units into small groups, each attacking a different part of the enemy army. Then armies die slower when in large battles, but without affecting the balance of small battles. I do not know whether an adjustment like this could be reliably coded, but I would be very interested in seeing what the effects would be. Would we be disincentivized from deathballs entirely, instead deciding to use small armies across the map. The change seems entirely in spirit with the changes of LotV. How the change would scale per-unit would need to be tested - would it be logarithmic? Square-root? I do not know which implementation would be most balanced and entertaining. TL;DR I would like some feedback on this idea: What if damage from multiple attacking units didnt stack fully? Example: If one unit deals 6 damage, what if 2 attacking at once deals 9-10 instead of 12, and 3 would deal 12-13 instead of 18. This would make small battles more entertaining, and make armies more "tanky" in deathball battles. You are basically asking for overkill. Meaning units will spend more damage than necessary to kill a unit and it happens with stalkers, and hydras and other projectile based units already. Applying overkill to more units might help. | ||
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My_Fake_Plastic_Luv
United States257 Posts
"Hi community, we thought the new protoss shade unit was really cool when we thought of it. But it doesn't work and has no point. So we are removing it and designing something else. We also realize that unseiging tanks took micro, so the medievac pickup is also out. Finally we are reverting all other changes back to HOTS except for lower mineral patches." I think blizz is trying way too hard to be innovative with their unit design: too many spells, too many new powers. Here some simple ideas that could actually work: an aoe melee unit for P, a high hp shield/wall type unit for T, a drop-ship unit for z. And here is my money suggestion (!), a unit that can lift up buildings. It would help with all-ins, mess with production in mid-game, help clear out spine/fields and such late game. Damn its so genius. | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
On February 14 2015 03:59 ZeromuS wrote: You are basically asking for overkill. Meaning units will spend more damage than necessary to kill a unit and it happens with stalkers, and hydras and other projectile based units already. Applying overkill to more units might help. I think this is a great idea that can introduce more skill and micro into the game without slowing down everything else. IRC there was overkill for quite a few units in BW that made it necessary to try to target clumps and individual units rather than relying on auto attack. Adding this in would make so many units take more skill to use (collo, tanks, banelings), to compensate might have to buff their attack damage in some way. TBH i agree with everyone that blizzard sounds like they're half-assing it and started development on LotV multiplayer way too late ... the only notable change was the economy change, everything else was like 'hey i got a random unit idea lets try it .. oh no that didnt work lets try another random unit'. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13386 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:11 Xyik wrote: I think this is a great idea that can introduce more skill and micro into the game without slowing down everything else. IRC there was overkill for quite a few units in BW that made it necessary to try to target clumps and individual units rather than relying on auto attack. Adding this in would make so many units take more skill to use (collo, tanks, banelings), to compensate might have to buff their attack damage in some way. TBH i agree with everyone that blizzard sounds like they're half-assing it and started development on LotV multiplayer way too late ... the only notable change was the economy change, everything else was like 'hey i got a random unit idea lets try it .. oh no that didnt work lets try another random unit'. they aren't half assing it. Lets be honest: its an expansion not a new game. IDK what else they are supposed to do scrap every protoss, terran and zerg unit and start over? Also its not like LotV is coming out next week. If it was then maybe you could claim they didnt spend time on it but I think they are just trying to be more open, like we've all been asking for forever, and instead of "great more insight into development and community interaction!" some people decide "what half assed work its nowhere near ready and its almost done!?!?!" I guess people just want to hate on blizz and not focus on any positive stuff at all. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 14 2015 03:12 OtherWorld wrote: Out of curiosity, do you consider that Zerg units are fine right now design-wise? I would prefer if Roaches and Hydralisks were reworked around a 1 supply variant, and Ultralisks desperately need some kind of finesse. I also think the Viper should get something else instead of Abduct. For the rest, they're changing or trying stuff for Corruptors, Infestors and Swarm hosts, + Lurkers and Ravagers sound like solid additions, so the Zerg building site seems more advanced. | ||
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SicPro
United States202 Posts
As far as the attk speed decrease.... I think it's at least moving in the right direction.... maybe not 40% but 30 or 25 would be better. Just please do as much as you can to raise the relation of micro to skill. I wanna be able to micro my units during battle and right now thats very hard to do... maybe reducing movement speed across the board... especially for fast units like muta, ling, stimmed bio, oracle, hellions etc. I ALWAYS thought stimmed bio and mutas and even hellion to a lesser extent, especially were wayyyy too fast going back to WoL and now oracle/boost medivacs too in hots in the sense that you barely had time to react compared to the amount of game ending damage done. Someone else mentioned something similar in this thread already about the speed of muta, ling, and boost medivacs and it really got me thinking about what bothered me most about the game from the first times I played WoL and it only got worse with boost medivacs and oracles. PLEASE move away from this and towards a game that doesnt live or die by one stim or one muta flock flying into your main... or even one oracle catching you. | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:17 TheDwf wrote: I would prefer if Roaches and Hydralisks were reworked around a 1 supply variant, and Ultralisks desperately need some kind of finesse. I also think the Viper should get something else instead of Abduct. For the rest, they're changing or trying stuff for Corruptors, Infestors and Swarm hosts, + Lurkers and Ravagers sound like solid additions, so the Zerg building site seems more advanced. Yeah I agree about Roach/hydras and the Ultra. | ||
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TronJovolta
United States323 Posts
I'm so freaking happy. Cannot wait for beta, I might actually really play it. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:27 TronJovolta wrote: All you toxic haters go play a different game, jesus christ. How is this now incredibly exciting news, these last few updates? The game is going to become even more action packed, fun, and spectatable. Not only that, but they're even addressing the army evaporation issue. I'm so freaking happy. Cannot wait for beta, I might actually really play it. Scepticism ≠ hate We've already heard countless promises over the years. Feel free to be hyper enthusiastic but don't insult people who are legitimately distrustful about Blizzard finally doing wonders and miracles after 5 years of mayhem... | ||
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