• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:27
CEST 18:27
KST 01:27
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202533Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder8EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced50BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
Serral wins EWC 2025 The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Classic: "It's a thick wall to break through to become world champ" Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation
Tourneys
LiuLi Cup Weeklies and Monthlies Info Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Which top zerg/toss will fail in qualifiers? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ 2025 Season 2 Ladder map pool Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 1 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL] Non-Korean Championship - Final weekend
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 722 users

Exclusive: Pinnacle Interview on San/Dark

Forum Index > SC2 General
146 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All
Just as in the previous thread, simply saying "X player did Y" without significant evidence will not be tolerated. Unless you can provide factual basis for your claims, do not accuse anyone of anything.

Any accusations that Pinnacle isn't legitimate or attempted to scam people, or that Kespa is involved in matchfixing will be moderated SEVERELY.
TL.net ESPORTS
Profile Joined July 2011
4 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-24 04:11:35
January 22 2015 17:30 GMT
#1
On January 20th 2015, Pinnacle Esports voided all bets placed on the Proleague match between(Z)Dark and (P)San.

In their statement, Pinnacle esports said:

In accordance with this policy, the match between Dark and San {20th January 2015 } has been identified by our fraud prevention team as being manipulated. The bet placement pattern clearly indicates that the match was not played on a fair basis.

As a result all bets on this match have been voided. We apologise for the inconvenience this causes for anyone betting on this match in good faith, but hope you will appreciate that protecting the integrity of eSports is of paramount importance.


At the time of the initial thread here on TeamLiquid we stated that Pinnacle had declined to comment on the specifics of the suspicious betting pattern which resulted in their decision to void all bets placed on the match in question.

We continued to follow up with Pinnacle Sports and were put in contact with the Manager of Social Media at Pinnacle Sports, who gave us the opportunity to ask them a series of questions regarding the match between Dark and San, and the circumstances which lead to their decision to void all bets placed on this match. The questions were sent in an email to Mr. Wise who then forwarded these questions to the Head of Sportsbook at Pinnacle Sports for answering.

In short, Pinnacle Sports identified, as noted in their statement, strange betting patterns. These strange betting patterns lead to their decision to flag the match, lower the maximum bet, and then take the game offline to investigate. Key in their statement regarding the potential for matchfixing is that they:

"are not insinuating anything, nor suggesting any specific culpability. [They] are raising a flag, not pointing a finger".


Below you will find a complete transcript of the questions forwarded to Pinnacle Sports and their Answers:




We asked Pinnacle Sports to provide a short introduction describing their company offering context for any readers who may not know the company:


Pinnacle Sports is an online bookmaker, established in 1998. Based on the volume of bets we receive, we are one of the largest in the world. In 2010 we first started offering eSports betting, and since then have seen a huge expansion in interest. eSports is our fastest growing product, now more popular than mainstream sports like Golf or Rugby; we have now surpassed 1 million eSports bets. We firmly believe in the credibility of eSports and many of our staff are gamers.





TL: We understand you cannot divulge your anti-fraud practices to us in this interview. You can however understand that this is the first serious insinuation of perceived match-fixing or corruption in StarCraft 2 during a major competition. I would like to ask if there are any particular details surrounding this case you would be willing to share. What in this case, in as broad or detailed a manner as you wish, lead Pinnacle to void the bets?


Pinnacle Sports: I hope you will understand that I am unable to comment on our anti-fraud practices. We would however be willing to share some of this information with KeSPA if they seek out our help investigating this matter.





We are sure you do not take voiding bets lightly as making this a regular activity would be bad for your business. Are bets voided on a case by case basis after each match? How often do sports bets become voided?


We very rarely void bets, but when we do it is because we see it as the only fair solution for our customers. Voiding a bet is a not a ‘get out of jail free card’ for us. The amount concerned here was tiny in the context of our daily volume.

Our customers expect to make bets on a level playing field. When we have strong suspicion of irregularities, we need to take action to ensure that is the case, to protect our honest customers.





Some online sources, claiming to be clients of your betting service, described the odd betting behaviour on our forums at the following link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476033-pinnacle-voids-dark-vs-san-bets-due-to-match-manipulation-concerns The prevailing theory within the thread is that by the time betting closed, a five figure sum had accumulated for Dark, the perceived favorite to win the match. Some posters claim that the maximum bet possible was placed on Dark multiple times reducing his betting line each time.

Regarding the max bet theory, we would like to know first, if not already answered above, if there is any veracity to this'max-bet' theory?


I am unable to comment on the specifics, but money generally moves markets. This market moved a lot for an eSports match.





In your statement found here http://www.pinnaclesports.com/en/notice/esports-statement?ito=twitter you state that "Pinnacle Sports has always been very clear that it will take an aggressive stance against any perceived match-fixing or corruption in any sport that it offers betting for. In accordance with this policy, the match between Dark and San {20th January 2015} has been identified by our fraud prevention team as being manipulated. The bet placement pattern clearly indicates that the match was not played on a fair basis."

In this statement you imply that the bet placement patterns which caused you to void all bets on this match are indicative of match fixing.

Was your decision to void the bets for the San vs. Dark match based purely on the betting patterns for this match which you observed on your website?


Yes it was purely based on sophisticated algorithms detecting potential fraud.* After the flagging of the event, a team of experts who regularly trade SC analysed the betting patterns and came to the conclusion that they were abnormal. I met with the team in the morning and based on the presented evidence had to make the decision to void all wagers. We then let our customers know.






I think many of our users would appreciate seeing how you received the information that lead you to closing the bets on this particular match and how you reacted to it. Can you provide us with a timeline summary of your course of action related to this event?


The game in question showed very worrying signals in the early betting and was put under "close monitoring" from an early stage. The evidence was however, not conclusive, but our traders were alerted that the game showed unusual activity. Over the course of the day the evidence became so overwhelming that we reduced our maximum wager from a high of $1,000 back to $100 to limit the incoming action, eventually taking the game offline to investigate.

This additional information on line movement helps illustrate what we saw :

Day Time Dark San
17th Jan 2015 03:07:42 60.72% 39.28% Opening
17th Jan 2015 10:37:59 53.50% 46.50%
19th Jan 2015 09:58:07 62.83% 37.17%
19th Jan 2015 23:40:07 73.09% 26.91%
20th Jan 2015 02:59:43 78.80% 21.20%





If you do have additional information which implies the match was manipulated by either player involved, we will respect the sensitive nature of such information and not ask for it at this time. We would like to know however, in the case where information corroborates the accusation of match fixing, whether this information has been forwarded to the appropriate channels in KeSpa for further investigation?


All our information is only based on our wagers. We are happy to work with KeSPA if they decide to investigate the case.*





Insinuating that San and Dark conspired to influence the outcome of a match, especially from such a respected organization as Pinnacle, may have a lasting impact on their reputations, careers and future matches Pinnacle hosts bets for.

It is entirely your right to void bets when you feel that the betting lines were unduly influenced by outside factors. Your statement describing your decision to void the bet insinuates that San and possibly Dark conspired to have Dark win the match. Understanding the history of match fixing in Korean esports, this kind of insinuation cannot be made lightly. With this in mind, I would like to know, if you do not have any additional sources, whether you feel the way you worded your statement was irresponsible?


To be clear, we are not insinuating anything, nor suggesting any specific culpability. We are raising a flag, not pointing a finger.

We certainly do not take this action lightly. We are aware of the significance, but first and foremost must follow our internal procedures. We feel our analysis is sound, and conclusive and on that basis we decided to prevent a negative impact on our customers by voiding all bets.





San has provided a public statement in response to the allegations in the StarCraft community that he is involved in match fixing. His statement may be found here: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sk5aog .

In his statement he describes having practiced less, and being in poor physical condition resulting in his inability to play well. Is it possible that this insider information which was not public prior to the match between San and Dark may have factored into the odd bet placement pattern your fraud team discovered?


I don't like to talk in absolutes. So the answer to the question is simple. Is it possible? Yes, absolutely, but the real question is: Is it likely?





In your expert opinion, are there any explanations beyond match manipulation for the odd betting patterns which forced you to void the bets?


There are a lot of possible explanations for the betting behaviour we saw, but we are not making any specific allegations. We voided the bets because in our assessment, the pattern was extremely irregular. That is our process. We have been conducting this kind of analysis for 16 years, so feel we have the relevant experience to guide our actions.





*Any emphasis added is ours alone
Facebook Twitter Reddit
TL+ Member
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-22 17:33:13
January 22 2015 17:32 GMT
#2
I don't know, numbers never lie...
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Blargh
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2103 Posts
January 22 2015 17:38 GMT
#3
They didn't provide much... At least we know it's 100% based off of their "algorithm".
Jarree
Profile Joined January 2012
Finland1004 Posts
January 22 2015 17:39 GMT
#4
I don't like to talk in absolutes. So the answer to the question is simple. Is it possible? Yes, absolutely, but the real question is: Is it likely?

Wow pretty surprising they would even give this statement. People that are familiar with betting already knew that, but still.
joshie0808
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada1023 Posts
January 22 2015 17:43 GMT
#5
Thanks for the interview/transcript. Still doesnt reveal much more information than what we already know but good to hear from a primary source.
StarGalaxy
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany744 Posts
January 22 2015 17:43 GMT
#6
Not surprising but still very interesting insight from pinnacle. Thx for the interview.
Cj hero | Zest
ScottagePie
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom25 Posts
January 22 2015 17:43 GMT
#7
On January 23 2015 02:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I don't know, numbers never lie...


Nor do they prove anything in this situation...
Axiom Fighting!
Faust852
Profile Joined February 2012
Luxembourg4004 Posts
January 22 2015 17:47 GMT
#8
Damn that story is so weird.
Pinnacle looks certain that something odd happened in this bet.
NeThZOR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
South Africa7387 Posts
January 22 2015 17:50 GMT
#9
People favouring Dark is barely evidence for matchfixing.
SuperNova - 2015 | SKT1 fan for years | Dear, FlaSh, PartinG, Soulkey, Naniwa
Beyond Magic
Profile Joined August 2011
Finland130 Posts
January 22 2015 17:51 GMT
#10
Guess anyone who was aware of San's state could have made those bets.
gg
TheTreeKing
Profile Joined December 2010
United States26 Posts
January 22 2015 17:54 GMT
#11
On January 23 2015 02:43 ScottagePie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 02:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I don't know, numbers never lie...


Nor do they prove anything in this situation...


I think this reaction is perfectly reasonable for the betting company. They seem to have some messaging mismatch, but are trying to clean that up with these additional statements (i.e. "We don't know what happened. But we know something happened.")

It's unfortunate for the players that they are associated with this as it seems to be some outside actors (not players) who created fraudulent betting patterns. Hopefully this will help clear up controversy of earlier statements. (Notice they don't admit to 'crossing streams' in messaging as it were.) Not sure there's much more anyone can do in this situation barring a KESPA investigation, which is interesting and almost implies it's a player issue if Pinnacle is so forward and willing to work with KESPA.

Hope for the best for our players.
If only Protoss units cost money
Lorning *
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Belgica34432 Posts
January 22 2015 17:55 GMT
#12
Should be like this

EXCLUSIVE
Community News
TL+ Member
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
January 22 2015 17:56 GMT
#13
On January 23 2015 02:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I don't know, numbers never lie...

...But what people make from numbers may be lies
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
January 22 2015 17:58 GMT
#14
On January 23 2015 02:50 NeThZOR wrote:
People favouring Dark is barely evidence for matchfixing.

You can't dismiss someone putting ~$50k on Dark as 'people favouring Dark'. The fact is something very abnormal happened, nobody knows exactly what happened, but some events are clearly more likely than others. I'm so sad because I've been a San fan ever since the very first GSL where he played an awesome game vs Inca on Delta Quadrant .
robson1
Profile Joined March 2013
3632 Posts
January 22 2015 18:05 GMT
#15
I don't know. The presented evidence doesn't warrant a judgment in my eyes. It's seems understandable that they voided the bets, but I'm not convinced that San and Dark actually did something. And I like to stay on the innocent until proven guilty side in such cases.
Genius is that funny scientist who no one takes seriously until he kills you with a flame throwing trumpet. - stuchiu 2013
rasnj
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1959 Posts
January 22 2015 18:06 GMT
#16
On January 23 2015 02:50 NeThZOR wrote:
People favouring Dark is barely evidence for matchfixing.

I can't believe that is all they have. They are not giving a lot of specifics, but I'm sure plenty of matches have had unlikely favorites or people with insight in the scene creating relatively large bets. Yet this is the first time they voided a match for anything like this, so it must be something more even if they are not telling.

Odds are set so Pinnacle do not lose whatever the outcome of the match, and in the big picture a small damage to their reputation is far greater than any potential financial gain from voiding a match. A lot of people seem to have some conspiracy that Pinnacle just doesn't want to pay out, but in reality they would actually gain money from leaving all bets valid and in any case a single esports match is not worth risking your brand over even if that was the case.
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
January 22 2015 18:06 GMT
#17
Hm I think Pinnacle did the right thing to protect their customers and business, but I still do not think San lost on purpose. Something was weird with the bet though and Pinnacle reacted, that's good.

Really interesting exclusive, thanks a lot!
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-22 18:09:30
January 22 2015 18:07 GMT
#18
On January 23 2015 03:06 rasnj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 02:50 NeThZOR wrote:
People favouring Dark is barely evidence for matchfixing.

I can't believe that is all they have. They are not giving a lot of specifics, but I'm sure plenty of matches have had unlikely favorites or people with insight in the scene creating relatively large bets. Yet this is the first time they voided a match for anything like this, so it must be something more even if they are not telling.

Odds are set so Pinnacle do not lose whatever the outcome of the match, and in the big picture a small damage to their reputation is far greater than any potential financial gain from voiding a match. A lot of people seem to have some conspiracy that Pinnacle just doesn't want to pay out, but in reality they would actually gain money from leaving all bets valid and in any case a single esports match is not worth risking your brand over even if that was the case.

What could they possibly have? They are a betting website not private investigators. To get confirmation Kespa will probably have to investigate.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
January 22 2015 18:12 GMT
#19
What I find really funny is how most of the questions are 2 to 3 times longer than the answers.
robson1
Profile Joined March 2013
3632 Posts
January 22 2015 18:13 GMT
#20
On January 23 2015 03:12 TheDwf wrote:
What I find really funny is how most of the questions are 2 to 3 times longer than the answers.


yeh. They are pretty secretive.
Genius is that funny scientist who no one takes seriously until he kills you with a flame throwing trumpet. - stuchiu 2013
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV European League
16:00
Playoffs Day 2
ShoWTimE vs Harstem
Shameless vs MaxPax
HeRoMaRinE vs SKillous
ByuN vs TBD
WardiTV592
LiquipediaDiscussion
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
15:55
FSL TeamLeague week8: IC vs RR
Freeedom163
Liquipedia
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
12:00
Playoff - Day 1/2
Mihu vs ZhanhunLIVE!
Fengzi vs Dewalt
ZZZero.O232
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 163
JuggernautJason80
ForJumy 41
MindelVK 36
ProTech32
Rex 21
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 39292
Mini 920
BeSt 687
ggaemo 588
firebathero 353
ZZZero.O 232
Rush 132
Zeus 89
Mong 75
Rock 29
[ Show more ]
sas.Sziky 22
HiyA 15
Terrorterran 10
yabsab 8
Dota 2
Gorgc5864
qojqva3646
420jenkins1109
LuMiX1
League of Legends
Reynor44
Counter-Strike
fl0m3747
ScreaM1314
sgares325
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor640
Liquid`Hasu484
Other Games
singsing2172
B2W.Neo1150
Beastyqt391
byalli324
Hui .318
Lowko301
Trikslyr53
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• sitaska27
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix13
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3774
• Nemesis1757
• WagamamaTV653
League of Legends
• Jankos1753
Other Games
• Shiphtur99
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
17h 33m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
21h 33m
Bonyth vs TBD
WardiTV European League
23h 33m
Wardi Open
1d 18h
OSC
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
HCC Europe
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CAC 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.