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On December 18 2014 11:05 Big J wrote:
Protoss Gateway unit idea, lorewise it is Nerazim
*insert Protoss name*
*some Ninja skin with some Psi-Shuriken or similar*
Cost 75/75/2
80HP/20Shield/0armor, light, biological
Attack: Damage 15(+2), Cooldown: 1.5
Attack range 5, ground only
speed: 3.0 (like a speed roach)
size: like a zealot
drop-size: 2
Auto-Cast ability, 6second cooldown: When attacking, the *Ninja Super Trooper* immidiately performs a second attack.
tech requirement: twilight council
Stats Analysis:
good damage output: 13.75 dps, good burst (due to the double attack at the beginning of a combat), good upgrading
can't take many hits, so it has bad tanking for the Colossus
mediocre range, so only zealots and archons can tank reasonably for it
quite mobile, so it can roam the map a lot
does not go well with usual deathball units like stalkers and Colossi due to standing in front of the stalkers
Strategically:
The unit does synergize very well with zealots and can kill enemy workers and stray units very fast. The high-burst damage (30 on the first shot) makes it very good in the midnumbers against Terran bio units, because the bio-units can get bursted down before the medivac-heal takes full effect.
From a cost-balance point of view, the unit cannot be massed on its own in early rushes, because of the high gas:mineral ratio. It's weakness are faster units such as zerglings or hellions that can close the distance and force it into combat, however, due to the high damage output they can still take a good amount of enemies with them into the grave.
It should offer Protoss players an alternative ranged combat and harassment unit to the stalker, with a very contrasting approach in gameplay.
Tactically:
The unit can be microed against very well due to the 5range and sniped very fast. However, with a reasonable zealot buffer the unit can dish out its high burst damage and then use its high speed to fall back until more zealots arrive.
While it doesn't quite bring the same longterm damage output onto the battlefield as marines or hydralisks, the high burst damage allows it to quickly overwhelm enemy forces to fight another day.
From what i read, i like it.
Also, i think its kind of interesting somehow to give protoss a ranged unit that cant shoot air. Immortal behaves like this but that unit is so specialised.
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Nah, they would function quite differently. The more diamondbacks you got, you could swarm in and do raids. Cyclones effectiveness I imagine would dwindle substantially the more the game goes on given overkill is insane and high cool down (like tanks from BW), but without the splash / range.
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RIP 6pool 
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On December 18 2014 16:24 XiZeL wrote:RIP 6pool
...and say hello to 12 pool
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Why not make a viable choice between WG and GW just by changing the cooldown time of those? Warp only around nexus or something. And THEN move on with redesigning toss.
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The unbalanced mineral patch is crap. Now Zerg and Protoss will have bases running at half efficiency half the time. Terrans can benefit by using mule to mine out the bigger patches first. Now forcing the need to take more base is again beneficial for terran with pf and turret and bunker.
The idea of immortal change is good. An upgrade from the bay to make it much stronger. A 'power' unit that fills a mid game role and a late game role. As for the Protoss early game unit(gateway), it should be a unit that counters the marauders. Not by aoe again. But requiring micro. Like a siphon life spell that does incremental damage to bio. Much tougher micro that blind stutter step or shift A click. Individual unit target individual marauder for maximum effect. Needs to use with force field to prevent marauder from running away. Becomes obselete when you have medivac for pickup. Same effect against roaches. Encourages Zerg to research burrow to escape. Upgrade at citadel to target 2 units.
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On December 18 2014 16:30 Zerg.Zilla wrote:...and say hello to 12 pool
Nah. 12 pool will not work. 6 zerglings will get drilled to death by 20 scv.
The only early game cheese that gets buffed by 12 workers is proxy 2 rax at 12/12 because marine is ranged and you have bunker.
Proxy gate will useless. Because most likely the first free pylon will be in-base.
But I do see cannon rushes becoming stronger. Zerg is nerfed(compared to 6 workers start), Protoss is not much difference and terran got a little buffed from the change. Because compared to now, Zerg reaches 12 worker first, then Protoss and terran reaches 12 worker last plus the lost mining time from the scv building an additional depot. Which is another small buff, Zerg gets 1 free larva from the additional overlord. Protoss got nothing.
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I think the economy change sounds pretty good, I would still prefer a change to saturation.
Good call on banshee and Lurker I think.
Protoss new unit, I can only agree with what others have said. They need something that is a bit tougher which can stand up against other t1-2 units, making base defense and splitting of army better.
I would also echo the idea of warp-in working around nexus and not pylon. That way you can get Warp in back to the same speed as before, making defense better for P and stopping the boring part of warp in. The never ending attack.
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If you see this blizzard here is my idea for a new Protoss unit: it is a unit that has the same movement speed of a Helion, has very little HP (mabe 20hp 20shild or something like that) dose quite high damage to light and not much to armored (mabe 25 to light and 10 to armored) and to not make it a unit that only is useful in the early game there is an upgrade that dose so it can fly for a short period of time (max 5sec) and this will require a robobay. As for model I am thing something like the TAU drones from Warhammer 40k. I like the idea of it but mabe it is horrible.
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Hey guys,
First post so hello to the team liquid community!
I've been reading a lot of everyone's comments to the proposed changes to the current development to LotV, I see alot some praise for blizzard, but I see also see ALOT of hate, we all play sc2, we all love it, majority of us have played blizzard games since the beginning, I dare say a lot of this hate towards blizzard completely unnecessary, they are making drastic changes to the economy and the way it works to provide us with a fast action packed game that will entertain fans and most of the all the dedicated gamers and pros, I absolutely love this game, I work a full time job that requires 11 hours a day of work but I Still get home and play this game virtually every night, I'm no top tier player by any means I'm also not bad, I've played sc2 since the day it was released.
I see tons of posts whining about how blizzard are forcing them to play a style they don't want to play, the whole point of a real time strategy game is to provide almost an infinite amount of game play options, every game is supposed to be different, never the same stuff, sure there is the meta-game and there are builds that the pros and many great players developed which are safe an efficient, its not blizzard that is forcing everyone to play a play style, the play style comes from player which could quite possibly be on the other side of the world and yourself you're not locked to play a style your only limits are you on initiative and skills as a player...
I say instead of hating blizzard, why not provide solutions, here are some of my thoughts.
I propose rework the carrier and battle cruiser entirely, give the battle cruiser multiple abilities, air to ground missiles spells that deal splash damage that costs energy to use much like some hero skills in Warcraft 3 allow the battle cruiser to fly and fire at the same time, keep its jump abilities, give it some awesome abilities and make the battlecruiser worth building, make its skills researchable at the fusion core like they always have open up interesting late game options that provide epic entertainment and are fun to use...
Give the carrier its own basic defensive weaponry mainly Air to ground attacks so it doesn't also always rely on interceptors, give it a choice of different types of interceptors that do bonus damage to certain armor types even some that only attack air, make these units more legendary, of course if the changes were to be made they would need to be even more expensive but these units need to be feared by players fear instead of laughed at, you shouldn't be able to shoot them down with marines or stalkers these capital ships should lay waste to any low to mid tier units on the ground...
Next thing remove the ravagers ability to destroy force fields, but allow forcefields to be breakable with hitpoints allow the sentries to use energy to charge the forcefields, when the forcefield is damaged it doesn't die, it should shrink and get smaller allowing units to move past it up ramps...
Give zerg t3 units the ability to evolve into legendary creatures at a large cost that have multiple skills too, on ground or flying, allow them it to knock smaller units flying across the screen give it weaknesses for example, attacking the unit from behind or certain angles makes the creatures take more damage, this promotes micro and positioning from the enemy allowing them to exploit, also give it higher regeneration when not in combat or add a ability to increase health regeneration or armor temporarily.
I'd love to see this game take a more Warcraft 3 approach, allowing players to utilitise these super units to make early game units seem like they are nothing on the main battlefield in the late game, this these type of skills allow players with superior apm and control to take advantage thus displaying skill more.
Terran mech needs to be made more dynamic, add a mechanical field engineer that repairs and boost efficiency, give protoss mobile shield battery's that boosts shield regeneration in a certain radius but only for a short amount of time, give tanks an upgrade in techlab allowing bonus damages to shields and the ability to fire in none siege mode while moving using their turret, remodel the collosus so its not so easy to use, remove its sweep style attacks give it a smaller splash damage but give it an ability to rapid fire at the cost of energy using shift clicks much like snipe on the ghost so the collosus is not just not an attack move unit and kite unit, also give it secondary abilities that sends a shockwave that slows the movement speeds of nearby enemy unit temporarily change its cost to balance it and make not such a main stream unit.
Make zealot charge manual click and not autocast but give them a passive skill that works in synergy with other zealots allowing them to stay in a line formation of a triangle formation use charge in line formation gives them a defensive bonus,charge in triangle formation allows the units to push through the enemy allowing the zealots to get right inside the bio ball or zerg swarm... Give zerglings a manual cast leap ability allowing then to jump inside a bio ball ripping it apart apart, that has weaknesses to if hellbats are in the mix the jump into a BBQ, of course all these skills should be researched in the their required tech buildings.
Give roaches a Melee and Ranged mode, give melee a small damage increase to armored... keep the ranged attack the way it is. Melee mode will promote aggressive burrowing...
I think the changes made to the swarm host in LotV are cool, HotS swarmhost literally took excitement away from the game...
Make the maps more interesting and interactive, make parts of certain maps large areas of dense vegetation, sandstorms or blizzards limiting vision for ground units... and certain areas in the sky limiting vision for air units, with map control these environments could promote ambushes and exploits a player that is lacking map presence or map control...
Make Starcraft 2's Battle.Net experience more like Warcraft 3's, give players accounts proper leveling that can decay and level up with experience much like warcraft 3, this promoted players putting alot more effort into how their account and something to work for, blind MMR isnt as fun, Warcraft 3's system also punished inactivity, which is a must on a good ladder system.
There are a million possible ways you could make this already awesome RTS game even better, possibly the best of all time, of course these proposals are huge changes, but something needs to be done, RTS games need to be saved from the MOBA plague, RTS games display true gaming skill and should be the main stage on every major tournament, Starcraft should be the game with the most viewers, not League of Legends...
If you have taken the time to read my post thank you, if not oh well it was a cruisey afternoon at work anyways.
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Why are People so upset with 12 workers at the begining? It just brings the game faster to the point where it's best to watch. Casters always have to somehow entertain the viewers in the first ~5min, because there is absolutly nothing happening. You cant explain the basics every time....
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On December 18 2014 16:43 pieroog wrote:
Why not make a viable choice between WG and GW just by changing the cooldown time of those? Warp only around nexus or something. And THEN move on with redesigning toss.
I think the problem with current warp gate is that it is being used as a macro tool for protoss. If I'm not wrong warp gate was meant to allow protoss much larger map presence - being able to push out and reinforce your army on the go, warp in back home and defend, or warp in when you get caught out of position, etc etc.
However, due to the warp gate being researched early in the game, it has turned into a macro tool for protoss. Chronoboosted warp gate churns out units faster, if you also take into consideration the reinforcement time (time taken for units to reach the battlefield, which doesn't exist for warp gates). It makes early game mass-gateway attacks really swarming, and because of this protoss gateway units were nerfed to the point they can't even handle the bioball without tier 3 support.
To buff the gateway units back you have to do two things. Firstly, move the warp gate research to either twilight or templar archives tech, so that early game warp gate all-ins aren't as powerful. Secondly, make warp gates more expensive to use, or give it more cooldown, so that protoss needs to pay the price for having the instant reinforcement.
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On December 18 2014 15:03 insitelol wrote:
I don't like a thing about Lotv...
Call me paranoid, but i think this all is entirely a wrong direction. Game already has shitloads of units and strategies that leads to randomness and unconsistency. But looks like blizzard is ok with that, as all they seem to care about is crowd reactions like "omg mine shoot all the probes/mutas/banes etc". All these new units (and Hots units like oracle and viper) remind me of some mediocre moba. BUT THIS IS RTS. Stop adding niche units with fancy micro mechanics!! They should remove units from the game, not add them. In Lotv each race will have like 15-16 playable units wtf?!! Is this Total Annihilation? Or starcraft?
I agree with you. But terrans are still using MMM so it doesn't really matter if there are 100 units.
Actually is you compare to bw, Protoss did not get much more units. Sentry from gate. Tempest from stargate and immortal from robo. Arbitar = mothership(less effective spells). And lost of Dark Archon.
Zerg only got roach, bane, viper infestors. Lost lurker, defiler and scourge.
Terran got hellbat, Thor, reaper. Lost medic although it's function is greatly improved by medivac.
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Worrying that Herc purpose overlaps with Hellbat and then changing the Herc's tech level to Armory feels contradictory.
Secondly, I feel that Armory is too far along the tech tree for a Barracks unit such as the Herc. Even the Ghost would be easier to create than Herc due to the fact that you don't need a Factory to create a Ghost Academy, only a Barracks is required.
I suggest changing the Herc's tech requirement to either Factory, or Engineering Bay.
The rest of the changes seem agreeable.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 18 2014 15:28 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 10:36 Whitewing wrote:On December 18 2014 07:41 Glockateer wrote:On December 18 2014 07:33 Whitewing wrote:
Blizzard is going about this expansion thing the wrong way. Rather than reducing the minerals in each patch, they should be reducing the amount of patches at each base, meaning saturation is fewer workers. This encourages more expanding to take advantage of the extra supply: suddenly you can make use of 4 or 5 bases simultaneously rather than just holding extra for when you run out in your other bases. The current form simply punishes players for not expanding, rather than rewarding them for doing so.
It also unnecessarily punishes players for falling behind. Come-backs become much harder when you can't build up for a while, try to take favorable engagements, and slowly expand. You run out of money before you can rebuild now, meaning one fight is more likely than ever to kill you. Reducing mineral patches will reduce income rates overall at the start of the game and will encourage more, but smaller, engagements and make deathballing harder and maxing out slower. The current system they are using will just make the game even more of a one and done. I agree with these points. Though, the gas would still need to be lowered or tweaked to fit with the less mineral patches. I remember a mod that went with one high-yield vespene geyser and less mineral patches. Not sure how it played out. Agreed, a single high yield geyser per base would likely be fine. The main concern with that is rebalancing, which is likely why blizzard is avoiding doing it. Reducing income rates across the board would have interesting effects on balance, but there's no better time to try it. Also: I want to point out: starting at 12 workers is a direct nerf to Protoss. Protoss typically has it's first chronoboost at 11 supply, which lets them get slightly ahead on workers. Now, they start at 12 with no chrono at the same time the opponent has 12, which is a nerf. In addition, Protoss is the most dependent on gas of all races, and the least dependent on minerals. This is a boost, relatively speaking, to the other races against Protoss. You could also argue it's a nerf to Zerg based on larvae typically putting Z at 12 workers before other races. Sounds like T benefits most. Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 15:04 AndAgain wrote:On November 18 2014 22:22 ejozl wrote:
What if the Mineral patch was divided into three depletion levels, lets say Bountiful, Fair, Scarce
If a mineral patch is Bountiful, it means your worker returns 5 minerals pr. trip.
If a mineral patch is Fair, it means your worker returns 4 minerals pr. trip.
If a mineral patch is Scarce, it means your worker returns 3 minerals pr. trip.
At 1500->1000 Minerals it's Bountiful, 1000->500 Minerals it's Fair, 500->0 Minerals it's Scarce.
100 trips to earn the first 500 Minerals.
125 trips to earn the second 500 Minerals.
167 trips to earn the last 500 Minerals.
It means there's still 1500 Minerals on a patch that you can earn from it.
You still get fast into the midgame, unlike changing the amount of patches. But this way there's this incentive to take new bases that a lot of you talk about, instead of getting snowballed into defeat, if you can get no mining base for a while.
I think this is a sweet compromise and actually fit the changing model for the Mineral Field when it gets to look more depleted the more you mine from it.
This is interesting idea. May be have the minerals change colors when they change yields. What do the economy gurus here think about this? It's a copy / pasted solution from the other economic discussion thread, been discussed quite a bit. Wouldn't need any change in color as there's already visual cues for mineral patches at 0-499, 500-999, and 1,000-1,500 in the current state of the game.
Protoss still gets it worse than zerg. Zerg loses out on a larva, but Protoss loses out on around 50 chronoboost energy. Zerg is also slightly more mineral reliant early than Toss is. Still, you are correct that Terran wins out in spades.
The mineral rate decreasing thing is interesting, but ultimately doesn't solve the primary problem, which is that you don't want to saturate more than 3 bases at a time because of the supply sink. It would not be as effective at encouraging expanding as 6 mineral patches and one rich geyser per base would be.
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Hey here's an idea, lets wait till the game comes out before we start complaining, what do ya say folks.
And also it is pointless to be doing balance changes when there is no balance testing outside of ... I dunno blizzcon games and I guess top secret confidential classified pro gamer meet ups playing LotV alpha in Blizzard's private sector.
EDIT :
I wish they would release replays / more data about how balance testing is done with David Kim and others in the ' balance team ' ect....I mean there has to be replays of them playing in order to figure out the game, right? Or do they only use pro gamers data, if that is true then I am so confused...
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United States7483 Posts
On December 18 2014 18:02 GGzerG wrote:
Hey here's an idea, lets wait till the game comes out before we start complaining, what do ya say folks.
And also it is pointless to be doing balance changes when there is no balance testing outside of ... I dunno blizzcon games and I guess top secret confidential classified pro gamer meet ups playing LotV alpha in Blizzard's private sector.
EDIT :
I wish they would release replays / more data about how balance testing is done with David Kim and others in the ' balance team ' ect....I mean there has to be replays of them playing in order to figure out the game, right? Or do they only use pro gamers data, if that is true then I am so confused...
Any big changes has to be done now before we're in beta, they won't make sweeping economic changes in the beta to mineral patches, etc.
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I was really looking for a part of this article where there will talk about what there plan to do about microtransaction. I hope that this update is not just a way to make us forget about that.
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Herc:
No longer effective for cost
What the actual fuck? Why build it at all then?
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EPT
