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On December 18 2014 08:44 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 08:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:On December 18 2014 08:35 Nebuchad wrote:On December 18 2014 08:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:
"The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units"
Could it ever occur to you ranged pick up is retarded ? Based on what? Based on the fact that making every Protoss unit able to blink is downright stupid. The numbers need heavy tweaking if they really want to go through with it, I don't care how fun it looks if it's broken -and I play toss. Overall it feels like a very poor idea. Okay but I thought we were discussing design here, I can balance this unit to be completely worthless if I want to, and they can as well. Design wise it looks like they're trying to find another mechanism for a speedivac type of modification. Seems pretty good to me.
It's always the case with Blizzard : the intention is good, the idea is bad. Same goes for the worker/resources thing. Guess they've still got about a year to have some actually well thought ideas.
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On December 18 2014 08:41 Tresher wrote:So we get a bunch of changes that we can´t test or see in action...  Why? This just leads to useless theory crafting and balance whine BEFORE the game is even out.
You can see them in action, there is the LotV alpha mod which allows you to test the changes personally. I'm sure they will try to update the mod to include these new changes.
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Resources
Like a lot of the guys I think that expansions should be encouraged, but not forced. Anyway to make the advantage of expanding linear but not a leap would be cool.
I know you guys tried a lot of workers counts, but I didn't see you specifically say 9 workers. Middle ground between 6 and 12. I think that would still allow for early pools/gates/rax and cut that early mining.
Units
On the units, I really think you guys are following an excellent path, listening to the players, and noted fast what is not going to work.
But I think that the idea of not bringing back old units can harm the game. The HERC for example is/was a complicated unit to fill a role clearly of the firebat/hellbat. Elegance is very good for the game mechanics. Achieving goals with units simple to understand (not to micro).
Some units that were put in the game without a clear role has proven to mess with it, IMO. Warhounds, Cyclones, Hercs.
Terran
As you guys are already doing, try to find a real role for the Cyclone and the Herc. I feel like the Herc is trying to be a Bio option vs Zealots and Banelings. Again, sounds a lot like the firebat. In the same amount they get good vs zealots and ling/bane they should get less effective vs stalkers and roaches.
An early unit of a race "A" that shreds another early unit of the race "B" should never be "fairly" good vs all other early "B" unit. That should only occur with a high tech "A" unit, like Colossus, who does exceptionally good vs marines and farly good vs Marauders, but costs a lot to get. That goes to the Cyclone too. Please don't make any of them good vs all Zealots, Stalkers and Immortals like you did with the Warhound.
Tanks
The current pick-drop sieged tanks is too strong, IMO. An idea: The Medivac picks it up, but the tanks still automatically goes to tank mode while hanging, so the Terran has to wait the 2 seconds to drop it again. And, when dropped, the tank automatically goes to siege mode with that 2 seconds animation. That way, the Terran could still pick-up micro, but not pick-drop-shoot instantly.
Battle Cruiser
Anywhere teleport? Really? Not even the Mothership can do that, but a fleet of BC's can?
Zerg
Does the Ravager really need splash damage? I mean, Zerg is accumulating a lot of splash damage units, Banes, Ravagers, Lurkers, Ultralisks. If they are not effective enough, shouldn't be better just to improve them instead of adding another one?
If the Ravager is meant to do high damage vs slow, beefy units, they don't need splash. They would still be fairly good vs Tanks, Thors, Colossus, maybe even Carriers, BC's, Brood Lords. I'm just asking, I don't have a really strong opinion on this one.
AA vs mass air? Again, why not just use the scourge? It's a simple matter, and a simple unit to solve the problem. I know you guys don't want to bring many units back, but you're sacrificing the elegance, the simplicity, that makes the game beautiful. But you can still find a good answer in an ability I think.
Swarm Host / Infestor
Isn't that the original, long gone idea behind the infestor? INFESTOR. That what its name says, but nobody uses it to infest.
What about a better movement speed burrowed? The ability to go up-cliffs burrowed could be cool.
Also, instead of flying locusts, cliff-climbing locusts looks way more logical and can still address the harass potential while not being overpowered as I think flying locusts would be. And a unit that hatches from a ground unit, flies, but has to get back to the ground to attack... I know the game hasn't to be 100% logical, but when it is, is way cooler.
Protoss
The whole idea you're having of a new unit sounds very cool. I like the line of thought.
Disruptor
As much as I think the disruptor is cool, I feel that a unit which does a lot of damage in one hit is not so cool to play with or against. I am a high gold Protoss player. I know I don't have the best point of view, but I see a lot of people complaining about Protoss being OP. I think that's because so much units feels a lot like a gamble. DT's and the deathball idea in general. For me, Disruptors, as the Widow Mines do, will shorten the joy of the game. Hit, win; don't hit, die.
Disruptors will require more micro to hit though, that can be good. Still even when it hits, it doesn't feel as good as a victory on a micro-intensive multi-unit battle, at least for me. I have no idea how that feels and its dynamics on a Pro level play.
Immortals
I love immortals! They are the bastion that protects all Protoss vs the ground heavy hitters. Still I know that it's to hard of a counter vs whatever it counters, and requires little to no micro.
However, on the tests I saw, it's not being so easy to use it to counter tanks for example. Sentries and Stalkers already require some micro, I feel like adding too much micro on the immortals can make the Protoss midgame army a little too hard to micro. As Immortals are the only counter Protoss have to some units, please do not make it too hard to use, like " you need to micro 4 immortals like a platinum player to counter 6 Siege Tanks"
Mothership
Please, give it a buff. It has a support role, but give it a little more damage. For the cost it has, I think it should not die to 2 vikings or 2 corruptors. Maybe better abilities. I never liked the cloak much. It just make it a target.
What about a passive or click-to-activate "guardian shield"?
A passive or click-to-activate psi field that we can warp-in directly beneath it? When we got a MS, gateway are not so effective anyway, I don't think it would be overpowered.
Warp Prism
An idea that I had a time ago, what about a "morph" on the warp prism that permanently doubles its capacity but disable the phase mode ability?
That way, we can drop more without sacrificing units.
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Hmm with the auto cast change on Cyclone I wonder if Hellion-Cyclone will play anything like the Hellion-Diamond back unit comp that was possible in the WoL campaign... that play style was really fun, have always wanted to try something like that against real players.
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On December 18 2014 09:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 08:44 Nebuchad wrote:On December 18 2014 08:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:On December 18 2014 08:35 Nebuchad wrote:On December 18 2014 08:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:
"The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units"
Could it ever occur to you ranged pick up is retarded ? Based on what? Based on the fact that making every Protoss unit able to blink is downright stupid. The numbers need heavy tweaking if they really want to go through with it, I don't care how fun it looks if it's broken -and I play toss. Overall it feels like a very poor idea. Okay but I thought we were discussing design here, I can balance this unit to be completely worthless if I want to, and they can as well. Design wise it looks like they're trying to find another mechanism for a speedivac type of modification. Seems pretty good to me. It's always the case with Blizzard : the intention is good, the idea is bad. Same goes for the worker/resources thing. Guess they've still got about a year to have some actually well thought ideas.
Well history has shown that blizzard is actually very smart and has incredible designers. Your comment comes a bit off as whining especially since the vast majority of changes and features they are making are very successful. Think about how many cool things they have done so far (in general) before you make such a negative and generalized statement. This also takes away from the intelligent and constructive criticism i feel.
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On December 18 2014 09:06 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 08:41 Tresher wrote:So we get a bunch of changes that we can´t test or see in action... Why? This just leads to useless theory crafting and balance whine BEFORE the game is even out. You can see them in action, there is the LotV alpha mod which allows you to test the changes personally. I'm sure they will try to update the mod to include these new changes.
Im talking about the actual game. Not some badly designed fan mod that is done poorly by just watching the showmatches on Blizzcon 2014. Cyclone can´t even attack air there with their default weapon wtf. And Locusts that have almost the same Attack speed like stimmed Marines? At the Multiplayer Panel and the MP Update videos they said they wanted that Locusts have a stronger attack. Not faster.
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Protoss doesn't need another "uncommon" unit - It needs a new gateway unit, a solid one that is versatile to make the protoss army more effective in small groups instead of just deathballs. A unit that deals well with big masses of units like MM balls and clumps of lings, without being some tier 3 very expensive very big very clunky unit. This would automatically reduce the deathball effect and improve the ability to defend spread out bases. Pretty much a win win. But how would such a unit look like? That's another story.
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On December 18 2014 08:41 Tresher wrote:So we get a bunch of changes that we can´t test or see in action... Why? This just leads to useless theory crafting and balance whine BEFORE the game is even out.
Obviously Blizzard doesn't consider the community's feedback useless... or else they wouldn't be giving us updates... and asking for feedback.
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On December 18 2014 09:17 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 09:06 Grumbels wrote:On December 18 2014 08:41 Tresher wrote:So we get a bunch of changes that we can´t test or see in action... Why? This just leads to useless theory crafting and balance whine BEFORE the game is even out. You can see them in action, there is the LotV alpha mod which allows you to test the changes personally. I'm sure they will try to update the mod to include these new changes. Im talking about the actual game. Not some badly designed fan mod that is done poorly by just watching the showmatches on Blizzcon 2014. Cyclone can´t even attack air there with their default weapon wtf. And Locusts that have almost the same Attack speed like stimmed Marines? At the Multiplayer Panel and the MP Update videos they said they wanted that Locusts have a stronger attack. Not faster.
Play it again.
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On December 18 2014 09:17 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 09:06 Grumbels wrote:On December 18 2014 08:41 Tresher wrote:So we get a bunch of changes that we can´t test or see in action... Why? This just leads to useless theory crafting and balance whine BEFORE the game is even out. You can see them in action, there is the LotV alpha mod which allows you to test the changes personally. I'm sure they will try to update the mod to include these new changes. Im talking about the actual game. Not some badly designed fan mod that is done poorly by just watching the showmatches on Blizzcon 2014. Cyclone can´t even attack air there with their default weapon wtf. And Locusts that have almost the same Attack speed like stimmed Marines? At the Multiplayer Panel and the MP Update videos they said they wanted that Locusts have a stronger attack. Not faster.
Actually, all of those things that are in that LotV alpha custom mode reflect the changes in actual LotV alpha, as designers of that mod are in touch with Blizzard, Locusts attack a lot faster, that is the only change made to them(yes, faster than stimmed Marines, you can even see that in one of those exhibition matches). Cyclones are bugged, and they are working on the fix.
You are really talking out of your ass here.
Pretty much every guy that played alpha at Blizzcon(together with Pros) said that this mod is really really well made, and you happen to be a smart-ass that shits on it.
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Man it seems like Blizzard doesn't want to bring back the reaver but I think it could be a perfect fit.
1. It would provide the early midgame splash that Protoss players want so they don't have to get colossus immediately.
2. If blizzard is really set on giving protoss another hurass unit then the reaver could always be dropped in mineral lines. If this is the case I think it should need 2 shots to kill workers. This way the reaver can harass without being another unit that can end a game in an instant.
3. The splash damage could originally be fairly weak and just useful for defending early pushes or light drop harass, but then maybe it could be upgraded at the robo bay to either do more damage or have a larger area. I think this would bring an "impactful change" to the unit which blizzard wants from upgrades.
4. After being upgraded it could be put at bases, maybe along with templar, to make it easier to defend which blizzard also feels is a problem for protoss.
Anyone else feel similarly?
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Can't wait for the new protoss unit! I like this changes.
Man it seems like Blizzard doesn't want to bring back the reaver but I think it could be a perfect fit.
Man, we all love reavers, but their place is BW not SC2. Reavers features does not fit in sc2's faster gameplay.
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On more minor suggestions: I think they should merge observer speed and warp prism speed into one upgrade. Barely anyone ever gets these upgrades especially since prims start with higher speed by default. Then that would also maybe make room for an upgrade on robo that's actually interesting.
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Interesting, I wish they remove the colossus and replace it with a better aoe core T3 unit instead of another harassing unit.
Also the cyclone isn't really exciting to watch, I don't get why it's even going to be in the game at all and left unimpressed everytime I see it.
Other than that I think the game is looking pretty interesting already, the few games I played were very fun as well
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On December 18 2014 05:03 DarkLordOlli wrote:
So while the first two issues would already mess with protoss in its current state, LotV also introduces new units and abilities in the early-midgame for the other two races while protoss doesn't get any, has to expand faster and can't use defensive warpins anymore.
What's really needed for protoss is a strong, beefy unit or concept that you can leave on its own, or with little support, and it will do fine. Something like a super-stalker. Of course you'd have to be incredibly careful not to turn that into an easy to mass, go across the map and kill people type of unit, but it's what protoss needs the most.
I really think what they actually need is a DPS gateway unit. If combined with existing gateway units, such a thing could raise the capability of the entire force to be able to handle opposing forces in the mid-game (especially with limited support of HTs / Warp Prisms / etc).
Basically, make the gateway a holistic force that adds other forces simply to specialize.
I created an extension mod with such a unit that you can find by googling `[extension mod] LotV Protoss Unit Suggestion`.
It's not perfect, obviously, but it's the direction I'd rather Blizzard take with Protoss.
*shrug*
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Mexico2170 Posts
No more nerfs to warpgate please.
What protosss needs is a strong core gateway unit (but not as spameable) that is unlocked with twilight council that helps protoss not to die to stupid things in midgame.
In fact I wonder I'd moving the immortal now to gateway unit would be a bad thing. Also removing the immortal shields? That basically makes them a bad stalker. The immortal right now cost what 2 stalker cost and deals the same gamage as Two stalkers to non armored units, but it has less mobility less health and now won't have hardened shield and will need an upgrade on the robotics way which will Nerf midgame even more. And what about the 1-1-1 or tanks all in a? Now immortals will be worthless...
Protosss really need a buff to mid game not a Nerf.
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On December 18 2014 09:43 H0i wrote:
On more minor suggestions: I think they should merge observer speed and warp prism speed into one upgrade. Barely anyone ever gets these upgrades especially since prims start with higher speed by default. Then that would also maybe make room for an upgrade on robo that's actually interesting.
I don't know if that's necessary. Theoretically if you have one (merged) upgrade you can replace it with two upgrades that have the same total cost and research time. However, there is probably some sort of minimum cost to an upgrade for it to have a reason to exist in the game (be justified as a separate upgrade), which provides justification for merging. But imo, if observer speed is so sporadically relevant it can not exist separately it should probably be removed from the game. There might be some specific use to it though.
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It bothers me that any time they add a unit for protoss it's a harass or aoe unit. They don't need more or them, what's wrong with giving them a new/unique core unit, with a potentially good mechanic? Their build order openings or list of cheeses/allin is just going to be longer and harder to account for properly.
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Seems like LotV is JUST an expansion and not the revelation it had the potential to be. The units and their design seem pretty conservative to me, but let's see...
I also don't see why you would want to stick so much on the concept that each unit has just it's one unique niche. I mean, slight overlapping AND more units is not bad as it hurts no one. Instead, it adds diversity and FUN!
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On December 18 2014 09:09 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 09:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:On December 18 2014 08:44 Nebuchad wrote:On December 18 2014 08:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:On December 18 2014 08:35 Nebuchad wrote:On December 18 2014 08:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:
"The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units"
Could it ever occur to you ranged pick up is retarded ? Based on what? Based on the fact that making every Protoss unit able to blink is downright stupid. The numbers need heavy tweaking if they really want to go through with it, I don't care how fun it looks if it's broken -and I play toss. Overall it feels like a very poor idea. Okay but I thought we were discussing design here, I can balance this unit to be completely worthless if I want to, and they can as well. Design wise it looks like they're trying to find another mechanism for a speedivac type of modification. Seems pretty good to me. It's always the case with Blizzard : the intention is good, the idea is bad. Same goes for the worker/resources thing. Guess they've still got about a year to have some actually well thought ideas. Well history has shown that blizzard is actually very smart and has incredible designers.
When it comes to SC2, I'm not sure this would be my conclusion. There have been a lot of terrible design mistakes and impossible to understand decisions by Blizzard. Then again I'm confident LotV will be good, but that'll be because they'll scrap most of the "revolutionary" changes they brought at Blizzcon to make the hype strong.
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EPT
