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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 13 2014 01:01 Yrr wrote:
Sorry to say but I think you and people with similar reasons should not be a reason to overthink upcoming rules.
I can live with the punishment, but I want to solve bigger problems First, and yes I mean cheating.
Also, as I stated, if I play unranked, I don't get any punishment(since you are all aiming for ranked play) and I still play against ranked opponents who are levels beyond(or over) me. When I played unranked I played several players I wasn't supposed to play against a week. From both extremes(GM/high masters and gold/silver). It's already broken by Blizzard, this solution won't help much IMO. Or am I lucky when I play unranked on these extremes?
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On December 13 2014 01:05 deacon.frost wrote:
but I want to solve bigger problems First, and yes I mean cheating.
Bigger to you maybe. Besides can't Blizzard to both if they had the will? A multi million $ developer can surely achieve this, right?
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In a previous thread someone pointed out about how having short games not effect MMR, I thought it a fine idea, but clearly it could be easily abused.
Must be ways to deal with this though, otherwise what's the point in having MMR or different skilled ladders in the first place?
To my mind if a player is in say masters or diamond, that player has zero right to be playing ranked or unranked vs. bronze to gold players. To say otherwise isn't in the spirit of fair competition. Yeah yeah, life isn't fair, deal with it, man up. Send to /dev/null please.
Similarly a platinum should never be able to play vs. bronze and silver for example.
Wont jump on my soap box this time round, but I do hope Blizzard are taking notes.
Big skill difference in match ups = less fun, less fun = less players sticking about in SC2.
EDIT TO ADD: If in previous seasons a player achieved masters status, then that player should never be matched up against lower league players in future.
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In BW you didn't have to play matchups you didn't like.
Anyway I leave ZvZs now and I would still if MMR didn't count.
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Problem with dealing with leavers in sc2 is that normal games usually end in one player leaving the game, so it's kinda hard to distinguish that from people just spamming leave.
A time limit could work, but then leavers will just leave at (time limit)+1s. So yeah you're making leavers only be able to find a game every (queue time+time limit+1s) instead of (queue time+1s). Problem is, you have to keep the time limit really low in order to not punish people for getting surprised by cheese. I mean imagine getting proxy 2-gated three games in a row and receiving a punishment on top of that.
In my experience as a silver/gold, i find one or two leavers every two ladder sessions or so, so I wouldn't say it's that bad of a problem, and most certainly not worth the false positives.
But then again, I got promoted to gold after a three game loss-streak and a leaver, so I might be biased.
e: On December 13 2014 01:19 fruity. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2014 01:05 deacon.frost wrote:
but I want to solve bigger problems First, and yes I mean cheating.
Bigger to you maybe. Besides can't Blizzard to both if they had the will? A multi million $ developer can surely achieve this, right?
They're not doing one or the other, why do you expect them to suddenly do both at the same time?
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i hit low masters with zerg but i can't get my terran out of gold league o_o
i sometimes leave games if i don't feel like a certain match up / map though
they're just pixel points
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On December 13 2014 01:29 Epamynondas wrote:
In my experience as a silver/gold, i find one or two leavers every two ladder sessions or so, so I wouldn't say it's that bad of a problem, and most certainly not worth the false positives.
My experience in Silver isn't leavers, it's people who previously left (tanked their MMR from Diamond/Master) and are now trolling Silver. The skill gap is so blatantly obvious when playing I know even before I check their rank history that they are MMR tankers.
It got so bad last season I just stopped playing. I came back this season for the old school maps, but my first game was against someone with 5x Diamond league finishes playing in Bronze. Said fuck it, haven't played since. Went back to playing BW with friends.
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On December 13 2014 01:40 vesicular wrote:
My experience in Silver isn't leavers, it's people who previously left (tanked their MMR from Diamond/Master) and are now trolling Silver. The skill gap is so blatantly obvious when playing I know even before I check their rank history that they are MMR tankers.
It got so bad last season I just stopped playing. I came back this season for the old school maps, but my first game was against someone with 5x Diamond league finishes playing in Bronze. Said fuck it, haven't played since. Went back to playing BW with friends.
Please reread this Blizzard!!!
Shit like this is all too common in low league. Christ I'm jumping back on the soap box after all 
I best unsubscribe this thread before I start getting nervous facial twitches as I read posts.
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On December 13 2014 01:40 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2014 01:29 Epamynondas wrote:
In my experience as a silver/gold, i find one or two leavers every two ladder sessions or so, so I wouldn't say it's that bad of a problem, and most certainly not worth the false positives. My experience in Silver isn't leavers, it's people who previously left (tanked their MMR from Diamond/Master) and are now trolling Silver. The skill gap is so blatantly obvious when playing I know even before I check their rank history that they are MMR tankers. It got so bad last season I just stopped playing. I came back this season for the old school maps, but my first game was against someone with 5x Diamond league finishes playing in Bronze. Said fuck it, haven't played since. Went back to playing BW with friends.
Yes, this is the exact problem that should be fixed.
If you play a game a week you want it to be a fun and fair fight. Not a game verse some Diamond troller with self awareness problems.
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Hmm, I guess Im one of the few who don't have much of a problem with MMR tankers. Even if I lose to them, those are the losses I don't mind. I don't really get why people do it though, playing against people way worse than you isn't that fun, unless you're just doing crazy dumb stuff I guess.
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On December 13 2014 01:53 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Hmm, I guess Im one of the few who don't have much of a problem with MMR tankers. Even if I lose to them, those are the losses I don't mind.
The problem isn't losing, you expect to lose 50% of the time because of how the matchmaking works. The problem is that playing MMR tankers is an absolute waste of time. I've got a lot of other things I can use my time for than being trolled in Silver league.
I think this is the problem Blizzard needs to understand better. Time is a valuable resource and people have an abundance of options on what to do with their time. If what people get out of the game is not valuable to them, they will do something else.
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I don't play in lower leagues, but I think MMR decay is a large part of the problem. I pretty much completely quit for a year and a half and played almost no ladder games, and by the time I started playing actively again I had gone from GM MMR to platinum league. It took me 90 games to get from platinum to master with over 80% winrate. Other friends I know have recently had similar things. I don't know how common it is to throw games, but I assure you the people who decayed are as annoyed as you are.
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On December 13 2014 02:20 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't play in lower leagues, but I think MMR decay is a large part of the problem. I pretty much completely quit for a year and a half and played almost no ladder games, and by the time I started playing actively again I had gone from GM MMR to platinum league. It took me 90 games to get from platinum to master with over 80% winrate. Other friends I know have recently had similar things. I don't know how common it is to throw games, but I assure you the people who decayed are as annoyed as you are.
Yeah, it's definitely an issue with both MMR decay and the system being too strict on promotions. I'm a 4x master's player still in plat, it isn't much fun for either me or the opponent.
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On December 13 2014 00:32 ZenithM wrote:
Actually your idea of the always increasing cooldown on the Play button is a really good one. Nice.
Yeah thanks.
Actually there is not an immediate problem while you get matched with a MMR down tanking player. The problem arises when they finish tanking and start playing again.
They have certainly better mechanics or a better game sence, if not both even off race.
If they get punished enough for tanking there will be a skill balance again within the MMR, I'm sure.
I do not agree that a former master has no "right" to play in lower leagues, but a demotion should be honestly acieved, by just losing legitly to better players.
Having a decay is fine, but it should be somewhat weaker, and after 3-4 seasons not playing at all the MMR should be resetable by the player if he chooses.
That brings me also to the point where either each player shall have a seperate MMR for each race, while Unranked play shall be discontinued because a player in the ranked and the unranked que with the same MMR can be matched, and we all know that the MMR of Unranked develops independet of the Ranked play MMR. That means a Ranked Master Zerg can have a gold like MMR while playing Terran unranked and he is very probably a better player than his opponent that is let's say beeing ranked in gold with his mainrace..
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On December 13 2014 02:18 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2014 01:53 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Hmm, I guess Im one of the few who don't have much of a problem with MMR tankers. Even if I lose to them, those are the losses I don't mind. The problem isn't losing, you expect to lose 50% of the time because of how the matchmaking works. The problem is that playing MMR tankers is an absolute waste of time. I've got a lot of other things I can use my time for than being trolled in Silver league. I think this is the problem Blizzard needs to understand better. Time is a valuable resource and people have an abundance of options on what to do with their time. If what people get out of the game is not valuable to them, they will do something else.
It is not only a waste of time, you don't even have the chance to learn something from that game. It's just the worst game expereince you can have...
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On December 12 2014 23:59 Zulu23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2014 23:41 tar wrote:
or the algorithm could just be adjusted to ignore any game shorter than say 3 in-game minutes for calculating MMR. Show nested quote +On December 12 2014 23:57 Tuczniak wrote:
... Maybe. But a lot better way would be to not count games shorter than 1 minute to MMR. Then there are still players who want to be annoying by leaving games against races they don't like to play. I would say this would worse the problem even... because then anybody would be enabled to leave any game without consequence when they don't play against the race they want to, or not playing the race they want while playing random....
good point. that'd really be too easy to exploit.
I'm jumping on the delay-play-button-wagon then!
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Well you could implement the doesnt count if game ends before 3 minutes rule AND add a marker to the player that leaves games early alot to make them be more likely matched up with other early quitters......let them play each other
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Ladder would just be a leavefest. You don't like that matchup, you don't like that player, you don't like that map and you already vetoed 3, etc. you just leave the game.
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And what would stop player from leaving at the hypothetical 3 minute mark? The point is that you cant stop players from losing on purpose and therefor wont be able to stop people from tanking their MMR. The only way to stop this would be to make the system recognize the difference between a player losing on purpose and a player losing because they played worse, and honestly that is impossible. Just deal with it and continue playing its not like every game you play is like that. Shoot maybe even check the replay to see what you could have done better.
EDIT: and by impossible I mean without ruining the experience for other legitimate players.
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I don't think it's as straight forward as you make it sound, OP.
Way back when, before Master League was even implemented, I was a pretty solid Diamond player, but I haven't really played in years. So when I log on now (maybe 5 game every two weeks), there are still a lot of Diamond players I can beat, because I still have a lot of the muscle memory, but there are also gold players who straight up beat me because I don't know the cheeses they are playing, because I don't know what's going on in the meta, etc.
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Yeah sure you CAN still exploit a system like that. Still there needs good balance between an appropiate punishment after leaving a game and not punishing legit players that loses a game early.
BUT consider, now you can tank down 30 games in less then 30 minutes. If there would be an system to exploit, where you need to wait lets say 3-4 minutes before quiting unpunished and without a Cooldown on the play again / matchmaking button. Every 4-5 minutes you could quit a game (6-7 in 30 minutes).
I think thats just enough waste of time to compensate for the waste of time of the players who suffer under the tankers....
There could be also a random time in place between 3-6 minutes that hinders on using bots to optimize the tanking without punishment.
After all if one started a game and was already 4 or 5 minutes playing (and not beeing afk) it is very likely that he is continuing playing and not quiting....
So far we haven't such a system. Imho, I would find it useful because it would improve the game experience on the casual level quite a lot without affecting the game at all on the professional competitive level.
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EPT
