EPTTL Strat was born because a few of us thought of something cool and that we'd enjoy doing, and then we just fucking did it, found out people in the community we all come from liked it, and kept doing it, and it's grown into way more than we ever thought. Nothing else required. It's that simple. The same can be said about every single aspect of TL.
TL is Recruiting!: Help Fill the Void - Page 10
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
TL Strat was born because a few of us thought of something cool and that we'd enjoy doing, and then we just fucking did it, found out people in the community we all come from liked it, and kept doing it, and it's grown into way more than we ever thought. Nothing else required. It's that simple. The same can be said about every single aspect of TL. | ||
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On December 02 2014 05:44 Teoita wrote: You really don't get what TL is about do you? TL Strat was born because a few of us thought of something cool and that we'd enjoy doing, and then we just fucking did it, found out people in the community we all come from liked it, and kept doing it, and it's grown into way more than we ever thought. Nothing else required. It's that simple. The same can be said about every single aspect of TL. Maybe it's because I didn't follow broodwar so have no nostalgic feelings about TL from back in the day as a community/fan driven site is why I can level criticism more easily at it than others. I found TL when SC2 was released and I remember one of the first things I read was a long mission statement write up about the new direction of TL and changing it from a strictly community/fan site and turning it into a for profit site as a business. Sure the community aspect is still there, but I separate that from the business of running the site. Since they're a for profit site my criticism reflects that. I would cut them more slack if they were just a fan driven small site like back in the day. I understand your love for TL and willingness to write for free. However, I just don't feel like TL should be given a free pass for any criticism. | ||
Jer99
Canada8158 Posts
On December 02 2014 05:44 Teoita wrote: You really don't get what TL is about do you? TL Strat was born because a few of us thought of something cool and that we'd enjoy doing, and then we just fucking did it, found out people in the community we all come from liked it, and kept doing it, and it's grown into way more than we ever thought. Nothing else required. It's that simple. The same can be said about every single aspect of TL. To add to this, you don't have to be a great player to become a great coach | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On December 02 2014 06:04 Canucklehead wrote: Sure the community aspect is still there, but I separate that from the business of running the site. Since they're a for profit site my criticism reflects that. I would cut them more slack if they were just a fan driven small site like back in the day. I understand your love for TL and willingness to write for free. However, I just don't feel like TL should be given a free pass for any criticism. I don't think you understand just how much of TL is driven by volunteers and wouldn't be possible without them. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
I mean, TL wants to give coverage to people. They don't pay (except from other perks or whatever). If you don't want to write unpaid, you don't. If you do want to write about starcraft, and don't mind doing that unpaid, you apply. Pros are getting better at writing, getting experience in a professional organisation (if one doesn't have it already), getting to talk about things you like and getting an audience for the things you think are important aspects of the things you like. Cons are the time it takes. Not getting payed is not a con, getting paid would be a pro. If you don't want to be a writer for said reasons and think it's a waste of time that's fine, but don't come here complaining when there are other people who do. TL offers, one declines or accepts. I really don't get what's more to it than this. I wouldn't want to be a writer for tl as I don't have enough passion and i can't write. edit: Or maybe I'd want to write for tl if I had enough passion and could write. | ||
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On December 02 2014 06:08 DarkLordOlli wrote: I don't think you understand just how much of TL is driven by volunteers and wouldn't be possible without them. No, I do and mentioned it earlier. On December 02 2014 04:52 Canucklehead wrote: I'm well aware that TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees like Rich, heyoka, that store dude, etc. . I've mentioned in the past in other recruitment threads that it's a genius business model TL has that they have an army of volunteers to run the site while paying only like 5% of the people, ie their core employees. Microsoft, Apple, etc would love to only pay 5% of their workers too if they could. It's not a realistic model for most companies, but works for TL, so more power to them! I can admit to the genius of their business model, but still criticize them for it. The change from bw to sc2 didn't change the level of volunteerism needed to run the site. It just meant they could pay Rich, kennigit, hotbid, wax angel, etc. | ||
fusefuse
Estonia4644 Posts
On December 02 2014 06:36 Canucklehead wrote: I've mentioned in the past in other recruitment threads that it's a genius business model TL has that ... Okay, whats your deal then? Especially if you keep doing that every time a recruitment thread pops up. And nothing has changed! Is the intention to continue repeating yourself until people start doing what you think they should be doing and how? Or do you somehow think that lamenting your concerns would dishearten people enough to not apply? What's the edge here, help me out here | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On December 02 2014 06:40 fusefuse wrote: Okay, whats your deal then? Especially if you keep doing that every time a recruitment thread pops up. And nothing has changed! Is the intention to continue repeating yourself until people start doing what you think they should be doing and how? Or do you somehow think that lamenting your concerns would dishearten people enough to not apply? What's the edge here, help me out here Nah, the reasoning here is it's just a discussion point that is relevant each time a recruitment thread is posted. I'm not the only person in this thread who has pointed out it's not that cool to always ask for volunteers. I'm just the one you guys have focused on to reply to since I made a longer than one line response showing my reasoning and why I take issue with it. I don't really want to discourage people from applying and I guess my sucker comment could be read like that, but that was more of a throwaway snarky comment than a super strong opinion on it. I do think the level of volunteerism is an issue in esports, so I do think it's always a relevant discussion point to bring up, which is why I bring it up in these threads. It's not like I go in random threads to talk about volunteerism in esports. I do think it's a valid discussion point. You guys disagree with that and we'll just have to agree to disagree. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Surely you must realize the irony. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 02 2014 06:50 Canucklehead wrote: Nah, the reasoning here is it's just a discussion point that is relevant each time a recruitment thread is posted. I'm not the only person in this thread who has pointed out it's not that cool to always ask for volunteers. I'm just the one you guys have focused on to reply to since I made a longer than one line response showing my reasoning and why I take issue with it. Are you that guy on Kickstarter who tells people not to crowd source for their projects, because it's taking advantage of everyone who decides, of their own free will, to give them money? Your concerns might have made sense if eSports was this lucrative industry and everyone volunteering here were reasonably expecting to get great jobs after "slaving" away a couple of years writing content for a game they're passionate about. But there are no such expectations. You think Hot_Bid, the success story, is rolling around in cash and inspiring thousands of would-be entrepreneurs to follow in his footsteps for years to come? I doubt it. This crusade is sorely misplaced. Try advocating for writers and actors entering the entertainment industry, they need it. | ||
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On December 02 2014 06:51 DarkLordOlli wrote: So since you understand that TL wouldn't be possible without these over 200 volunteers, how exactly are you coming to the conclusion that TL would be able to pay them? The volunteers don't make TL an extremely rich organisation, they make it possible for TL to exist. They make it possible for people like you to come to the site and complain about why they're not getting paid, and even calling them out for volunteering? You wouldn't even be here if they didn't. Surely you must realize the irony. No, I realize TL wouldn't exist without volunteers, hence why I said it's a genius business model. When ongamers got the reddit ban Sir Scoots would tweet things like if your business survival relies on reddit then you have a bad business model. The same could be said of TL sort of like if your business model relies on volunteers to exist, then you have a bad business model. Except in TL's case it's a genius business model because it works for them, but they're an exception. Ongamers could have survived if it was volunteer based like TL. If TL died because all the volunteers left one day, then so be it. Other sites like reddit would take its place. If TL can't afford to pay all their volunteers then run a kickstarter like hotbid. At least then people would get paid and I wouldn't have issue with it since kickstarter is a choice for people to donate. On December 02 2014 07:03 pure.Wasted wrote: Are you that guy on Kickstarter who tells people not to crowd source for their projects, because it's taking advantage of everyone who decides, of their own free will, to give them money? No, I'm actually pro kickstarter because people have a choice to donate there. I never tell people where to donate their money to and think it's in bad taste to tell them to. Like during the ALS ice bucket challenge when critics were like donate to starving african children instead! People are free to pick the charities they donate to. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 02 2014 07:10 Canucklehead wrote: No, I realize TL wouldn't exist without volunteers, hence why I said it's a genius business model. When ongamers got the reddit ban Sir Scoots would tweet things like if your business survival relies on reddit then you have a bad business model. The same could be said of TL sort of like if your business model relies on volunteers to exist, then you have a bad business model. Except in TL's case it's a genius business model because it works for them, but they're an exception. Ongamers could have survived if it was volunteer based like TL. If TL died because all the volunteers left one day, then so be it. Other sites like reddit would take its place. If TL can't afford to pay all their volunteers then run a kickstarter like hotbid. At least then people would get paid and I wouldn't have issue with it since kickstarter is a choice for people to donate. I don't really see where a business model comes into this. Most community forums don't aim to make a lot of a ton of money. | ||
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On December 02 2014 05:00 Canucklehead wrote: Sure, but that's why it's a catch 22. You have no problem writing for free, but you devalue writing positions for everyone else by accepting volunteer work because everyone in esports expect people to write for free. However, esports isn't big enough to pay everyone for writing so there is no shortage of people willing to write for free, but then because of that there's also no incentive to pay people for writing. ...devalue? People visiting the site will look at articles and marvel at the amazing volunteers who got together and created what is practically a work of art. They won't think less of them for not being paid (a point, I might note, is only brought up in these threads). | ||
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On December 02 2014 07:14 SC2Toastie wrote: I don't really see where a business model comes into this. Most community forums don't aim to make a lot of a ton of money. That's the thing though. You see TL as just community forums. I see TL for the whole thing as a for profit esports site and all my comments reflect that. On December 02 2014 07:17 The_Templar wrote: ...devalue? People visiting the site will look at articles and marvel at the amazing volunteers who got together and created what is practically a work of art. They won't think less of them for not being paid (a point, I might note, is only brought up in these threads). No, you misunderstand. When I say devalue, I don't mean devalue their actual writing work. I mean devalue what sort of compensation that great work deserves. I have no idea on writing fees so I'm just making up numbers here for illustration, but let's say a writer does fantastic work which would normally cost $500/article. If that writer is willing to write for free instead of taking a fair wage for it, then it devalues the writing position for others. The larger the volunteer pool, the less incentive companies have to pay people a fair wage. If a company knows they can hire great writers for free, they have no incentive to pay them what their work is actually worth. That part isn't just about TL and applies to razor, etc who only want to hire volunteer writers. I'm aware that esports isn't a huge industry so has to rely on a lot of volunteerism, but it eventually needs to move away from volunteerism in order to become a legitimate industry to work in. You could say that my criticism is unfair due to the realities of the esports industry and that's a fair comment to make. I still think it's a valid talking point though. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 02 2014 07:30 Canucklehead wrote: That's the thing though. You see TL as just community forums. I see TL for the whole thing as a for profit esports site and all my comments reflect that. I see that, but I don't think the initial goal for TL.net as a website is to make profit as an organisation reporting esports. This discussion all boils down to a basic distinction in goals for TL.net: 1. Primarily used for exposure of the team, the game, as a place for the community to hang out and have fun. 2. Primarily for making profit as a result of producing SC2 (Hearthstone/Dota) related content. In case 1, there's no need to talk about salaries/paying contributors. In case 2, the moral (and possibly legal) issue arises whether you can make money off other peoples work without compensating them for it. As I see it, we're in case 1 and the people contributing enjoy doing so and enjoy doing their fair share for the community they love. | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On December 02 2014 07:35 SC2Toastie wrote: I see that, but I don't think the initial goal for TL.net as a website is to make profit as an organisation reporting esports. Yes, I know TL started out as a fan site and not a for profit site. That's why I brought up that mission statement article I read when SC2 was released about TL changing from a non profit site to a for profit site. That article is real old now, so I'll see if I can google it. I can't find the article now. Maybe someone else is better at finding TL articles from 2010 than me. It was a big write up around the time SC 2 was released. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 02 2014 07:10 Canucklehead wrote:No, I'm actually pro kickstarter because people have a choice to donate there. I never tell people where to donate their money to and think it's in bad taste to tell them to. Like during the ALS ice bucket challenge when critics were like donate to starving african children instead! People are free to pick the charities they donate to. Yes, and people are donating their time to TL by volunteering. I hope you're not going to suggest some organizations deserve donations more than others in response. | ||
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