This is it guys. Legacy of the Void, the final installment of SC2, is on its way. Over the past 4 and a half years, Team Liquid has been covering Starcraft 2 as one of its most prominent outlets and the quality of our articles has reached a standard that is praised throughout the industry. It's no exaggeration to say that we are the chroniclers of this game.
We create the images that remind us of our greatest moments and bind the books that contain our memories.
We celebrate our finest battles and examine the theories that hold our universe together.
We write the stories that become our history and craft the tales that become our legends.
This is our game and we need your help. We're building a bigger, stronger team to get ready for the next expansion, and recruitment starts now.
Only you can fill the void.
How to Apply
How to Apply: Send an application containing the following information to lichter@teamliquid.net (lichter)
Your TeamLiquid.net ID and Skype information. For coordination purposes, we require writers to use Skype.
Short introduction and relevant background information as it pertains to this position. Please do not send resumes.
All required test assignments
Availability and desired workload.
Applications are open indefinitely.
Applications are open until positions are filled. Positions are not paid and are on a strictly voluntary basis. Valuable staff members may receive non-monetary rewards, passes to leagues covered, opportunities to attend events as press, or positive referrals.
Writers
Description: Writers are responsible for writing previews, recaps, features, and other written content for TeamLiquid's StarCraft II coverage. In the case of previews and recaps, it is crucial that they are written in a timely manner. Writers must be able to write both concisely and at length, depending on the situation. The ability to recognize and develop narratives is also a must. Tournaments with priority at present time are GSL, S2SL, Proleague, WCS, and Weekenders like Dreamhack/IEM/RedBull. We intend on covering as many tournaments as manpower allows.
Write a concise recap on the events of a single day in a major tournament. This is NOT a battle report assignment. Try to tell an interesting story about the tournament and players as a whole, rather than listing the details of several matches. The above examples are only references, feel free to be creative with your style. Any major tournament after June 1st, 2015 may be chosen as the subject.
Write an article previewing some future tournament (as of the time of writing, the only upcoming tournaments is DreamHack, but feel free to think of an alternative if you can). The preview should not preview the entire event if there are many competitors, but should cover a main storyline leading into the tournament. A main storyline includes, but is not limited to, looking at a tournament favorite or popular player going into the event, looking at a team going into the event and any tournament specific storylines (e.g. "Who's good in LotV?").
Graphics
With Starcraft II more alivegaem than ever in 2015, we want to push the quality of our graphics to greater heights. We will need another pair of hands (or two) for graphics to make that happen! Our site might have a very retro forum look, but that doesn’t mean we don’t know how to make our articles look nice. Mainly we work closely with the writers and TL Strat teams to offer insightful articles coupled with attractive layouts. Eventually graphics staff members start helping out in other regions of TLnet, like most of us usually do. If you love ESPORTS as much as we do and have a talent for art or web design, this is the place for you!
While we're looking for a graphic designer, TeamLiquid's graphics staff also contributes to the site in a variety of other ways, and we are accommodating of any kind of talent.
There's no fixed criteria in what we require from our artists. Don't be afraid of applying even if you haven't received any formal graphics education or possess an unorthodox skill-set. We're providing a list of of generally useful skills to have, but they are in no way required. All that matters is the ability to contribute to TeamLiquid in a creative capacity.
Photoshop
Illustrator
After Effects
Indesign
Pixel graphics
HTML/CSS
Freehand illustration
Video editing
Making carriers
If you are interested in contributing, here's how you can apply. Send an email with the title "TL Graphics Application" and the following content to recruitment@teamliquid.net.
Brief introduction of yourself, your graphics background, and list of artistic skills.
Portfolio of your work.
An example of a piece you would do for TeamLiquid.net. This can be artwork for a news post (any league, past or present, real or fictional), a mock up version of any website feature (sidebar, forums, liquibet, icons, etc), any kind of short video, or something totally outside the box.
Please put Graphic Designer or whatever you feel best describes your profile in the subject line.
As with the vast majority of TeamLiquid staff positions, this is an unpaid volunteer position. No experience is required. Your sample work will speak for itself!
everytime I see this thread I want to apply but always end up hating my drafts if I ever even write them. Maybe I'll actually go through with it this time
On November 29 2014 12:50 chipmonklord17 wrote: everytime I see this thread I want to apply but always end up hating my drafts if I ever even write them. Maybe I'll actually go through with it this time
I have similar feelings. I'll probably write something up and delete it upon finishing.
Ya, I tried to write an article once and it turned out crap, so I think I'm screwed there. I'm terrible at strategy, and I'm no graphic designer... so I tihnk I'm screwed.
gogogo! apply! especially graphics, I feel bad for Shiro and Meru when I think about them doing the majority of our stuff D:
also, I must say, most applications are going to feel like they are trash compared to what ends up getting published, but that's because you've had no guidance in the technicalities and or general direction of your piece, which you'll get if you are trialed. It's worth a shot if you have the time, because you will become a better writer
On November 29 2014 12:50 chipmonklord17 wrote: everytime I see this thread I want to apply but always end up hating my drafts if I ever even write them. Maybe I'll actually go through with it this time
I have similar feelings. I'll probably write something up and delete it upon finishing.
I feel like once I get into it I'll like it (I've taken creative writing classes before) its just every intro I write just feels off.
Well, I'll probably be focusing heavily on builds and strategies for legacy of the void. I've been talking to some other top level american players already about builds/timings in legacy, however, I am not really a big fan of the whole "email us to get graded" kinda thing >.> ....
I'll definitely be posting some guides in the strategy section, just like my Skytoss build in HotS, as the beta and other content releases, though! Hopefully I'll be helpful one way or another to some new players looking to get into Legacy.
I'm actually currently working on a small video series with the current unofficial HotS/legacy map on my youtube so maybe that'll make up for being too introverted to apply for this. :D
On November 29 2014 12:54 banjoetheredskin wrote: gogogo! apply! especially graphics, I feel bad for Shiro and Meru when I think about them doing the majority of our stuff D:
also, I must say, most applications are going to feel like they are trash compared to what ends up getting published, but that's because you've had no guidance in the technicalities and or general direction of your piece, which you'll get if you are trialed. It's worth a shot if you have the time, because you will become a better writer
Yeah if you saw the first draft of stuff I write, you'd feel a lot better. My articles would be rubbish without guidance from my fellow TL Strat writers
On November 29 2014 12:54 banjoetheredskin wrote: gogogo! apply! especially graphics, I feel bad for Shiro and Meru when I think about them doing the majority of our stuff D:
also, I must say, most applications are going to feel like they are trash compared to what ends up getting published, but that's because you've had no guidance in the technicalities and or general direction of your piece, which you'll get if you are trialed. It's worth a shot if you have the time, because you will become a better writer
And if you don't become a better writer, I will make you into a better writer.
1001 years is a long time, you must of been a really bad boy.
On a slightly more serious note, I've always though of myself as a far better writer, than orator, and am seriously thinking about giving this a shot with this fine site. I guess I'll have to put pen to paper and see if I can produce something worth reading! Unlike this post.
LotV will be epic, I'm sure of it, though am already dreading the moans about balance.. But hey, if we weren't passionate about the game and race(s) We play, we wouldn't feel the need to get up in arms about it.
I'm curious if you guys would like a proof-reader/editor, but only for spelling mistakes, double words, some syntax, etc. I don't consider myself a great writer, nor do I have the time to devote to researching and writing articles, but I could make myself available to do a final pass over a piece before publication for these sorts of errors. I don't want to do content editing, I love the pieces produced by the SC2 team, and I don't think that I have the expertise to do that sort of editing at this point.
Of course, this implies that y'all would be trusting me not to reveal an article before publication, but I do have a few contacts in the scene who may be willing to vouch for my honesty and sincere love for the game and community.
Honestly, this is probably just a pet peeve of mine. I see these errors in publications on most sites I read regularly, and I feel that it detracts from the great writing I am seeing on display.
I really would love to volunteer my time to help advance TL in this small way, please PM me if this is something we could pursue further.
On November 29 2014 12:54 banjoetheredskin wrote: gogogo! apply! especially graphics, I feel bad for Shiro and Meru when I think about them doing the majority of our stuff D:
also, I must say, most applications are going to feel like they are trash compared to what ends up getting published, but that's because you've had no guidance in the technicalities and or general direction of your piece, which you'll get if you are trialed. It's worth a shot if you have the time, because you will become a better writer
And if you don't become a better writer, I will make you into a better writer.
With force if necessary.
This convinced me. I'll have an application in by sunrise
Would be awesome if TL established an official mapmaking team, then we'd have a bit more influence with Blizzard when it comes to rotating the map pool.
On November 29 2014 12:54 banjoetheredskin wrote: gogogo! apply! especially graphics, I feel bad for Shiro and Meru when I think about them doing the majority of our stuff D:
also, I must say, most applications are going to feel like they are trash compared to what ends up getting published, but that's because you've had no guidance in the technicalities and or general direction of your piece, which you'll get if you are trialed. It's worth a shot if you have the time, because you will become a better writer
Yeah if you saw the first draft of stuff I write, you'd feel a lot better. My articles would be rubbish without guidance from my fellow TL Strat writers
FYI writing skill isn't as important for TL strat as analytic thinking and expression.
If you could see Blade's first drafts you would never doubt yourselves again.
...
Ever
...
On November 29 2014 14:11 dravernor wrote: Eh, I'm more of an editor than anything else.
On November 29 2014 12:47 ZeromuS wrote: TL strat is the best group. Come on guys you know you wanna volunteer with us <3
Fixed.
at least one dude always always always shows up in these threads with the passive aggressive digs about the position not being paid
it's like the sun rising in the east or bomber losing medivacs
Yup, because these "recruitment" posts are equally hilarious every time. TL.net is offering you the chance to provide, for free, content off of which the site can make money.
By my count this "offer" has been made three times, and applications are always accepted indefinitely, which says a lot. Nobody is smart enough to be a competent writer but at the same time dumb enough to fall for this.
Just because they have the gall to make these requests with a straight face doesn't mean users shouldn't call them out on it.
On November 29 2014 12:54 banjoetheredskin wrote: gogogo! apply! especially graphics, I feel bad for Shiro and Meru when I think about them doing the majority of our stuff D:
also, I must say, most applications are going to feel like they are trash compared to what ends up getting published, but that's because you've had no guidance in the technicalities and or general direction of your piece, which you'll get if you are trialed. It's worth a shot if you have the time, because you will become a better writer
Yeah if you saw the first draft of stuff I write, you'd feel a lot better. My articles would be rubbish without guidance from my fellow TL Strat writers
FYI writing skill isn't as important for TL strat as analytic thinking and expression.
If you could see Blade's first drafts you would never doubt yourselves again.
On November 29 2014 12:47 ZeromuS wrote: TL strat is the best group. Come on guys you know you wanna volunteer with us <3
Fixed.
at least one dude always always always shows up in these threads with the passive aggressive digs about the position not being paid
it's like the sun rising in the east or bomber losing medivacs
Yup, because these "recruitment" posts are equally hilarious every time. TL.net is offering you the chance to provide, for free, content off of which the site can make money.
By my count this "offer" has been made three times, and applications are always accepted indefinitely, which says a lot. Nobody is smart enough to be a competent writer but at the same time dumb enough to fall for this.
Just because they have the gall to make these requests with a straight face doesn't mean users shouldn't call them out on it.
it's actually more hilarious that you are so offended by the concept of volunteer work
On November 29 2014 12:47 ZeromuS wrote: TL strat is the best group. Come on guys you know you wanna volunteer with us <3
Fixed.
at least one dude always always always shows up in these threads with the passive aggressive digs about the position not being paid
it's like the sun rising in the east or bomber losing medivacs
Yup, because these "recruitment" posts are equally hilarious every time. TL.net is offering you the chance to provide, for free, content off of which the site can make money.
By my count this "offer" has been made three times, and applications are always accepted indefinitely, which says a lot. Nobody is smart enough to be a competent writer but at the same time dumb enough to fall for this.
Just because they have the gall to make these requests with a straight face doesn't mean users shouldn't call them out on it.
it's actually more hilarious that you are so offended by the concept of volunteer work
Volunteer work for a for-profit company. This isn't a charity. Someone is making money here, and they're asking for people to donate their time. Yea, that's offensive.
On November 29 2014 12:47 ZeromuS wrote: TL strat is the best group. Come on guys you know you wanna volunteer with us <3
Fixed.
at least one dude always always always shows up in these threads with the passive aggressive digs about the position not being paid
it's like the sun rising in the east or bomber losing medivacs
Yup, because these "recruitment" posts are equally hilarious every time. TL.net is offering you the chance to provide, for free, content off of which the site can make money.
By my count this "offer" has been made three times, and applications are always accepted indefinitely, which says a lot. Nobody is smart enough to be a competent writer but at the same time dumb enough to fall for this.
Just because they have the gall to make these requests with a straight face doesn't mean users shouldn't call them out on it.
it's actually more hilarious that you are so offended by the concept of volunteer work
Volunteer work for a for-profit company. This isn't a charity. Someone is making money here, and they're asking for people to donate their time. Yea, that's offensive.
Guess you've never heard of internships that you don't get paid or various other volunteer work people do for companies that make money. Research the real world and volunteering.
On November 29 2014 12:47 ZeromuS wrote: TL strat is the best group. Come on guys you know you wanna volunteer with us <3
Fixed.
at least one dude always always always shows up in these threads with the passive aggressive digs about the position not being paid
it's like the sun rising in the east or bomber losing medivacs
Yup, because these "recruitment" posts are equally hilarious every time. TL.net is offering you the chance to provide, for free, content off of which the site can make money.
By my count this "offer" has been made three times, and applications are always accepted indefinitely, which says a lot. Nobody is smart enough to be a competent writer but at the same time dumb enough to fall for this.
Just because they have the gall to make these requests with a straight face doesn't mean users shouldn't call them out on it.
it's actually more hilarious that you are so offended by the concept of volunteer work
Volunteer work for a for-profit company. This isn't a charity. Someone is making money here, and they're asking for people to donate their time. Yea, that's offensive.
Some day I will have fangirls and it will have all been worth it.
Because the finances of the site are (justly) separated from those of TL pro, and they (very likely) aren't enough to pay a salary to the ~200 staff members we have across TL, LD and LH.
On November 29 2014 12:47 ZeromuS wrote: TL strat is the best group. Come on guys you know you wanna volunteer with us <3
Fixed.
at least one dude always always always shows up in these threads with the passive aggressive digs about the position not being paid
it's like the sun rising in the east or bomber losing medivacs
Yup, because these "recruitment" posts are equally hilarious every time. TL.net is offering you the chance to provide, for free, content off of which the site can make money.
By my count this "offer" has been made three times, and applications are always accepted indefinitely, which says a lot. Nobody is smart enough to be a competent writer but at the same time dumb enough to fall for this.
Just because they have the gall to make these requests with a straight face doesn't mean users shouldn't call them out on it.
it's actually more hilarious that you are so offended by the concept of volunteer work
Volunteer work for a for-profit company. This isn't a charity. Someone is making money here, and they're asking for people to donate their time. Yea, that's offensive.
IDK why people think we don't get paid for what we do. I have a buttload of eSports dollars and gold coins that I can spend whenever I feel like it. I'm making bank right now.
Absolutely nothing? :o I know from other esports sites that volunteers have higher chances to get beta-keys (sc2, hots, d3, overwatch next time i think, especially closed beta keys) from Blizzard. Seriously you should ask Blizzard for beta keys.
On November 29 2014 19:05 Seeker wrote: IDK why people think we don't get paid for what we do. I have a buttload of eSports dollars and gold coins that I can spend whenever I feel like it. I'm making bank right now.
nice contribution to a serious conversation. now i know how you got 23904832487234 posts. please go away if you have nothing to say.
i know some sites that pay per article, it encourages new authors and you (as a site admin) dont have to use the article, if you dont want to.
On November 29 2014 19:05 Seeker wrote: IDK why people think we don't get paid for what we do. I have a buttload of eSports dollars and gold coins that I can spend whenever I feel like it. I'm making bank right now.
nice contribution to a serious conversation. now i know how you got 23904832487234 posts. please go away if you have nothing to say.
i know some sites that pay per article, it encourages new authors and you (as a site admin) dont have to use the article, if you dont want to.
how in the world do people get mad about this
no one is forced to volunteer, if you don't want to write for free then you don't, literally absolutely no problem is caused for anyone anywhere
On November 29 2014 19:05 Seeker wrote: IDK why people think we don't get paid for what we do. I have a buttload of eSports dollars and gold coins that I can spend whenever I feel like it. I'm making bank right now.
nice contribution to a serious conversation. now i know how you got 23904832487234 posts. please go away if you have nothing to say.
i know some sites that pay per article, it encourages new authors and you (as a site admin) dont have to use the article, if you dont want to.
how in the world do people get mad about this
no one is forced to volunteer, if you don't want to write for free then you don't, literally absolutely no problem is caused for anyone anywhere
no one is getting mad. i am just asking why they are not paying. i know this is for volunteers, i know there are no problems caused for anyone anywhere. I just want to share my opinion and maybe get some writers to think how they are working for free while TL gets the ad money.
The fact that the positions are unpaid is a good idea, really like it - This makes sure that the people who write these aren't doing this because of some sweet sweet $ - this make sure that they make this because it is their passion, they do this for fun, they do this to work with new people from all around and if you wanna work in some esport related jobs and you say that you got some articels on this site with a lot of views and a lot of positiv feedback, that pushes your application even more.
//
On November 29 2014 19:33 graNite wrote:
no one is getting mad. i am just asking why they are not paying. i know this is for volunteers, i know there are no problems caused for anyone anywhere. I just want to share my opinion and maybe get some writers to think how they are working for free while TL gets the ad money.
Good point
Because you asked a question if they get something, i found this, this should help you a bit, maybe
On November 15 2014 04:43 Rikudou wrote: wait, arent the TL writers paid usually?
We receive perks, but we aren't paid, no.
What kind of perks?
Not that it should really matter - it isn't what most (if any) of us signed up for - but we do get TL store discounts and access to press passes for a bunch (most) SC-related events. Depending on what you're like, a more public outlet for your opinion (writing editorials really fits some people and allows them to share their opinions where more people will see them) is also a plus. And I mean, I guess TL can probably be a way to get into other esports-related things if you're really into it, so you can think of it as an opporunity to broaden your skillset and so forth.
I figure you can think of this as having free coaching for your writing skills, as well as something to put on a resume/portfolio somewhere down the road of your life if you're still a student - some companies actually think highly of volunteer work!
As for the for-profit/nonprofit discussion/argument... why does it even matter? If you believe in the cause, you'll give your time and effort as the scv/probe/drone for free, and that doesn't change whether you're a company intern or a volunteer of an organization (profit or non-profit). If you can't find enough faith in the cause, you'll just choose not to pitch in your hours - that choice is only yours, and clearly not shared by the people who are volunteering. No amount of "this is stupid/unfair" Negative Nancy talk will dissuade future believers in the cause from applying, because they already are firm believers in the group's cause, and it usually takes a LOT for someone like that to lost that faith.
@lichter - would me teaming up with the Graphics team to bake special TL cookies (or I can go solo and bake Carbot cookies) for the TL staff (a few at a time, I don't bake for a living) make it worth it?
On November 29 2014 19:15 Dingodile wrote: Absolutely nothing? :o I know from other esports sites that volunteers have higher chances to get beta-keys (sc2, hots, d3, overwatch next time i think, especially closed beta keys) from Blizzard. Seriously you should ask Blizzard for beta keys.
On November 29 2014 20:47 fusefuse wrote: As usual in these threads, if you have any questions (about gfx), don't hesitate to ask and we'll do our best to answer your questions & concerns!
Also, the preview list of GFX examples needs to now start with the amazing Blizzcon Preview series by Meru & Shiro!!! Pls fix
I used to be newswriter for Gaming.fi (sc2 content only) but now my passion is almost dead
I haven't watched or followed DH Winter at all. I was so suprised when I opened TeamLiquid and saw DH Winter Day 2 LR thread And I visit TL daily at least 20 times.
On November 29 2014 20:47 fusefuse wrote: As usual in these threads, if you have any questions (about gfx), don't hesitate to ask and we'll do our best to answer your questions & concerns!
Also, the preview list of GFX examples needs to now start with the amazing Blizzcon Preview series by Meru & Shiro!!! Pls fix
I added. Yes if you have any graphic questions we shall answer. ^^ Or want any advice, etc. I wouldn't have been here where I am today if I didn't try. I don't regret doing graphics for TLnet. One of the top things I love to do.
On November 29 2014 19:15 Dingodile wrote: Absolutely nothing? :o I know from other esports sites that volunteers have higher chances to get beta-keys (sc2, hots, d3, overwatch next time i think, especially closed beta keys) from Blizzard. Seriously you should ask Blizzard for beta keys.
We get a lot of perks and small rewards for what we do.
On November 29 2014 19:05 Seeker wrote: IDK why people think we don't get paid for what we do. I have a buttload of eSports dollars and gold coins that I can spend whenever I feel like it. I'm making bank right now.
nice contribution to a serious conversation. now i know how you got 23904832487234 posts. please go away if you have nothing to say.
i know some sites that pay per article, it encourages new authors and you (as a site admin) dont have to use the article, if you dont want to.
how in the world do people get mad about this
no one is forced to volunteer, if you don't want to write for free then you don't, literally absolutely no problem is caused for anyone anywhere
no one is getting mad. i am just asking why they are not paying. i know this is for volunteers, i know there are no problems caused for anyone anywhere. I just want to share my opinion and maybe get some writers to think how they are working for free while TL gets the ad money.
All of us have read this discussion 64 times and I wish people would stop assuming we dont know the value of what we do. We love TL and starcraft and that is why we right. I think (think) I speak for every volunteer on this site when I say that we really, really dont give a shit about not being paid.
Hey, could I do graphics if I only have a very limited knowledge of photoshop and a decent understanding of MSPaint? I have no artistic talent but I do wanna help in some way.
On November 29 2014 21:12 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Hey, could I do graphics if I only have a very limited knowledge of photoshop and a decent understanding of MSPaint? I have no artistic talent but I do wanna help in some way.
Can confirm, TL Writers is pretty awesome. I don't think getting paid really matters - most of us are here for the experience and the chance to give something back to the community that we love. We're a great bunch right now, and I'd love to see some more of the vast talent out there apply. Seriously, guys - don't be nervous. The worst thing you'll get is a 'Sorry, no thanks', which really isn't that bad. If you don't apply, you'll never know!
On November 29 2014 21:12 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Hey, could I do graphics if I only have a very limited knowledge of photoshop and a decent understanding of MSPaint? I have no artistic talent but I do wanna help in some way.
I don't really recommend using MS paint for graphics we wanna do (I'm looking at you lichter!), but another option out there is GIMP. It's a free program! Photoshop, gimp, and MS Paint don't magically make us banners, we have to have a sense what we are doing too. They are just tools (like a computer) to help us do things faster. ^^ If there is anyone who went from not doing banners to doing banners is riptide from LiquidDota. :D Back before the split he started to handle the banners as well (as the editing) cause he didn't want me to do too much work. He progressed quite well with making banners. :D Hope this helps!
On November 29 2014 21:12 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Hey, could I do graphics if I only have a very limited knowledge of photoshop and a decent understanding of MSPaint? I have no artistic talent but I do wanna help in some way.
I don't really recommend using MS paint for graphics we wanna do (I'm looking at you lichter!), but another option out there is GIMP. It's a free program! Photoshop, gimp, and MS Paint don't magically make us banners, we have to have a sense what we are doing too. They are just tools (like a computer) to help us do things faster. ^^ If there is anyone who went from not doing banners to doing banners is riptide from LiquidDota. :D Back before the split he started to handle the banners as well (as the editing) cause he didn't want me to do too much work. He progressed quite well with making banners. :D Hope this helps!
Well... I was mostly joking... pay extra attention to the "no artistic talent" part after. Thanks, though.
me everytime I try to write a strategy guide: "should cover that too" "should cover that too" "should cover that too" "should cover that too" "should cover that too" "wohoo, opening is done, let's read through this" *read**read**read* "wtf, was this written by a 5year old? DELETE!" "fuck, I just wasted three hours on nothing"
All you need is the drive to do stuff and more importantly to just do stuff For perspective, when I applied to a gfx recruitment drive much like this one back in 2011, I didn't get accepted! I continued to improve, found LP as "my way in", contributed what and where i could (my crowning achievement being the new LP logo).. fast forward a couple years and here I am, a gfx staffer in disguise
Even if you dont think you have the skills already to become the grandmaster editor in chief of everything and then some, you can still always find a way to contribute and eventually make staff to contribute even more All you need is the willingness to do stuff with and for likeminded people.
Gonna go and try to apply for the graphics department. Haven't got that much experience but i know my way around most of the programs that are listed and my education is somehow related to the graphics department so it'll be a nice boost for myself (and TL ofcourse)
Eh, what the hell. I love this website so I might as well give writing a shot :D Question though, is there a demand/need for a writer that may not have a huge desired workload? I'm not a great writer and it takes time for me to gather my thoughts and stuff, and I don't really see myself being able to devote myself too terribly much, so I was wondering if something like that was possible? Thanks!
On November 29 2014 21:49 KingofdaHipHop wrote: Eh, what the hell. I love this website so I might as well give writing a shot :D Question though, is there a demand/need for a writer that may not have a huge desired workload? I'm not a great writer and it takes time for me to gather my thoughts and stuff, and I don't really see myself being able to devote myself too terribly much, so I was wondering if something like that was possible? Thanks!
Ya could do graphics or something, but I do work full time and am not a very fast worker in general... if you need stuff done quickly then I'm out.
I would love to work for TL.net! Since I've been on teamliquid.net the early days. But I'm more of a forum moderator and helper. Because lurking and having order around the forums is my speciality. So I'm just gonna wait for the opportunity to join as forum moderator! I really hope that it wont take long!
On November 29 2014 23:59 wmb wrote: I would love to work for TL.net! Since I've been on teamliquid.net the early days. But I'm more of a forum moderator and helper. Because lurking and having order around the forums is my speciality. So I'm just gonna wait for the opportunity to join as forum moderator! I really hope that it wont take long!
On November 29 2014 23:59 wmb wrote: I would love to work for TL.net! Since I've been on teamliquid.net the early days. But I'm more of a forum moderator and helper. Because lurking and having order around the forums is my speciality. So I'm just gonna wait for the opportunity to join as forum moderator! I really hope that it wont take long!
Good luck
Thanks;] I hope it will happen! Mostly because I think I'm the most active person on this site
On November 29 2014 23:59 wmb wrote: I would love to work for TL.net! Since I've been on teamliquid.net the early days. But I'm more of a forum moderator and helper. Because lurking and having order around the forums is my speciality. So I'm just gonna wait for the opportunity to join as forum moderator! I really hope that it wont take long!
Good luck
Thanks;] I hope it will happen! Mostly because I think I'm the most active person on this site
Oh, I don't know about that, there are some people that are practically on 24/7
On November 29 2014 23:59 wmb wrote: I would love to work for TL.net! Since I've been on teamliquid.net the early days. But I'm more of a forum moderator and helper. Because lurking and having order around the forums is my speciality. So I'm just gonna wait for the opportunity to join as forum moderator! I really hope that it wont take long!
Good luck
Thanks;] I hope it will happen! Mostly because I think I'm the most active person on this site
Oh, I don't know about that, there are some people that are practically on 24/7
On November 29 2014 23:59 wmb wrote: I would love to work for TL.net! Since I've been on teamliquid.net the early days. But I'm more of a forum moderator and helper. Because lurking and having order around the forums is my speciality. So I'm just gonna wait for the opportunity to join as forum moderator! I really hope that it wont take long!
Good luck
Thanks;] I hope it will happen! Mostly because I think I'm the most active person on this site
Oh, I don't know about that, there are some people that are practically on 24/7
Well that's almost me so >_< so I'm hoping i can contribute back to this forum by being a forum mod in the future
On November 30 2014 02:54 XXTN wrote: writing for TL is a great experience and you can get rewarded with free press passes to events and go backstage and meet a lot of kool esports ppl.
not only did I get to meet all of my favorite players but I also got to interview guys like Bomber and Polt for TL
aw polt my mate! well yeah teamliquid.net for me has been everything. I grew up with TL.net and I'm here to stay! That's why im hoping someday to become forum moderator since i use 3 computers actively on my desk and I'm online here 24/7 so
But yeah being a staff here on TL.net must be privilege.
On November 29 2014 12:47 ZeromuS wrote: TL strat is the best group. Come on guys you know you wanna volunteer with us <3
Fixed.
at least one dude always always always shows up in these threads with the passive aggressive digs about the position not being paid
it's like the sun rising in the east or bomber losing medivacs
Yup, because these "recruitment" posts are equally hilarious every time. TL.net is offering you the chance to provide, for free, content off of which the site can make money.
By my count this "offer" has been made three times, and applications are always accepted indefinitely, which says a lot. Nobody is smart enough to be a competent writer but at the same time dumb enough to fall for this.
Just because they have the gall to make these requests with a straight face doesn't mean users shouldn't call them out on it.
This is purely volunteer work, and we have all decided to do it because we simply like SC2. If you don't think it's worth it to spend your time doing free work, that's your thing, I won't hold it against you. But we're not idiots because we like to spend free time contributing to the SC2 community.
On November 29 2014 19:05 Seeker wrote: IDK why people think we don't get paid for what we do. I have a buttload of eSports dollars and gold coins that I can spend whenever I feel like it. I'm making bank right now.
nice contribution to a serious conversation. now i know how you got 23904832487234 posts. please go away if you have nothing to say.
i know some sites that pay per article, it encourages new authors and you (as a site admin) dont have to use the article, if you dont want to.
Pay per article sites are pretty much scams that pay little to almost nothing for low content Buzzfeed posts. I can't remember the exact numbers, but most sites end up paying $2-$3 per 500 word article, which takes about half an hour to write anyway. It does not encourage quality material, and in fact, actually produces worse material.
On November 29 2014 21:33 Big J wrote: me everytime I try to write a strategy guide: "should cover that too" "should cover that too" "should cover that too" "should cover that too" "should cover that too" "wohoo, opening is done, let's read through this" *read**read**read* "wtf, was this written by a 5year old? DELETE!" "fuck, I just wasted three hours on nothing"
probably not the one for that kind of job
If you want to do it, you should at least try. Our process includes extensive content/grammar revisions, even for our "best" writers. The most important thing for TL Strategy is getting content down and being able to somewhat analyze something, even if it comes out in a really dumb fashion. After that, we can whack it down and mold it into something good.
On November 29 2014 23:59 wmb wrote: I would love to work for TL.net! Since I've been on teamliquid.net the early days. But I'm more of a forum moderator and helper. Because lurking and having order around the forums is my speciality. So I'm just gonna wait for the opportunity to join as forum moderator! I really hope that it wont take long!
On November 29 2014 13:13 ptbl wrote: Lichter have you taken over waxangel's position? Seems like you're the big man around here now :o
lichter, Zealously, and DLO lead the sc2 coverage now
Clearly these noobs dont read enough P&W
I dont know what P&W is
Plexa and Waffles obviously
Best story ever.
*shakes seeker to see if chapter 12 will magically appear* ...or do i need to bribe with cookiez or something amg i need moarrrrr
(edit: whoops hit send instead of preview...)
To those that are actually thinking about applying, just do it. Trying and failing is better than cowarding out and not trying. (That's how I've always approached volunteer work - I'm not losing anything as long as I manage my time, including making what necessary schedule adjustments I need to do, so that volunteer work doesn't encroach onto paid work hours.)
On November 30 2014 11:17 Brindled wrote: Stupid question: Do we have to make all those graphics, links, and borders for the submissions (to apply as a writer)? I'm assuming no.
Nope! We leave that to the pros so you can just provide the writing :D
On November 30 2014 11:47 Dynamitekid wrote: How much do we get paid for writing strats?
For every article or guide I've written I've gotten about $3,000.
The nice thing about writing for TL is that you get a pass to the TLHQ and get to talk meet all of the employees face to face on a daily basis. This is the main reason that there is the ever prevalent "old boys club" that prevents new people from contributing anything meaningful into the community. Seeing as teamliquid.net IPO'd at about 13 billion when it went public paying the hundreds of content producers on TL a living wage and also housing and feeding them at TLHQ is chump change. Just read P&W for first hand accounts of our operations behind closed doors.
I recommend that you apply with the intention to make money off of your efforts because I heard the recruiters are looking specifically for aggressive and ambitious go-getters.
On December 01 2014 01:49 Th0R wrote: Is TL ever going to make a Heroes of the Storm team? :O
HoS wont get far in the e-Sports scene imo. I don't think so atleast. The skill gap or the skill level is very "small" and it doesn't take skills to get good at dat game.
On December 01 2014 01:49 Th0R wrote: Is TL ever going to make a Heroes of the Storm team? :O
HoS wont get far in the e-Sports scene imo. I don't think so atleast. The skill gap or the skill level is very "small" and it doesn't take skills to get good at dat game.
Have you actually played it? I haven't, so I don't actually know, but I'm assuming that since there are tournaments today and there are teams considered better than others there has to be something that differentiates players and teams from each other.
On December 01 2014 01:49 Th0R wrote: Is TL ever going to make a Heroes of the Storm team? :O
HoS wont get far in the e-Sports scene imo. I don't think so atleast. The skill gap or the skill level is very "small" and it doesn't take skills to get good at dat game.
Play some games vs 4000+ MMR dudes and you'll see a huge skill gap.
At the top level...it's questionable if there's a lot of differentiation, but we'll have to see how the game evolves.
So I'm really thinking of giving the writing thing a try. I have no experience in any form of creative writing and the one time I tried to write an article it turned out to be an awful statistic-fest with no real content. When you say you'll help us become better writiers... how low of a starting point are you guys willing to take?
On December 01 2014 09:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So I'm really thinking of giving the writing thing a try. I have no experience in any form of creative writing and the one time I tried to write an article it turned out to be an awful statistic-fest with no real content. When you say you'll help us become better writiers... how low of a starting point are you guys willing to take?
Just submit something! You literally have nothing to lose!
It's also quite hard to put it into any words or measurement what kind of starting point would be required. Keep in mind that writing and creating articles is usually a collective procedure, you'll get used to writing articles with proper content, as you put it, with some time put into it with a bit of help. People are usually great at helping with articles in that regard.
On December 01 2014 09:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So I'm really thinking of giving the writing thing a try. I have no experience in any form of creative writing and the one time I tried to write an article it turned out to be an awful statistic-fest with no real content. When you say you'll help us become better writiers... how low of a starting point are you guys willing to take?
Just submit something! You literally have nothing to lose!
On December 01 2014 09:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So I'm really thinking of giving the writing thing a try. I have no experience in any form of creative writing and the one time I tried to write an article it turned out to be an awful statistic-fest with no real content. When you say you'll help us become better writiers... how low of a starting point are you guys willing to take?
Just submit something! You literally have nothing to lose!
On December 01 2014 09:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So I'm really thinking of giving the writing thing a try. I have no experience in any form of creative writing and the one time I tried to write an article it turned out to be an awful statistic-fest with no real content. When you say you'll help us become better writiers... how low of a starting point are you guys willing to take?
Just submit something! You literally have nothing to lose!
On December 01 2014 14:44 hero_lief wrote: Seriously considering throwing together an email for graphic design.
Do you even have many GD applicants? It looks like almost everyone wants to focus on strategy or writing.
Go for it, shiroiusagi needs more slaves. It is true what you say though, the majority apply to become writers and quite understandably so. I mean if you just look at the number of writers.
irony is, i'm not applying (yet) coz chances are high i'll have to bail at a crucial moment with rush projects and/or simulcasts... my current workload really depends on how many shows my clients decide to give me!
but i'm willing to bake cookies for the hard-working unpaid volunteer staff, coz i've been there on both the unpaid peon and paid manager ends of the anime convention scene.
On December 01 2014 09:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So I'm really thinking of giving the writing thing a try. I have no experience in any form of creative writing and the one time I tried to write an article it turned out to be an awful statistic-fest with no real content. When you say you'll help us become better writiers... how low of a starting point are you guys willing to take?
Just submit something! You literally have nothing to lose!
Except dignity
I literally lost all dignity after applying multiple times. That was last time i tried. :p
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
On December 01 2014 16:28 rikapi wrote: irony is, i'm not applying (yet) coz chances are high i'll have to bail at a crucial moment with rush projects and/or simulcasts... my current workload really depends on how many shows my clients decide to give me!
but i'm willing to bake cookies for the hard-working unpaid volunteer staff, coz i've been there on both the unpaid peon and paid manager ends of the anime convention scene.
i will expect to die of intestinal cookie explosion when i go to blizzcon 2015
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid never worked for free
Well, from about 2007-2011 he did ;o that includes effectively running TSL1 and TSL2.
Maybe if this was 5-7 years ago when I did eSports writeups and had tons of time while unfortunately pushing school to the side. Even then, a volunteer position over a paid position, even if it is for a premier coverage site really takes selfless passion. hope for the best and most willing applicants to apply and be selected! More great coverage is only a good thing.
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
I know hot bid didn't write for free, hence why I said now that the shoe is on the other foot he won't write for free. I guess I should have made it more clear that I meant all the writers not named hotbid/waxangel were the unpaid writers I was talking about and hotbid justified their unpaid status every time one of these recruiting posts were made.
I'm well aware that TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees like Rich, heyoka, that store dude, etc. The issue is he's fine with writers not getting paid as long as that writer isn't himself! I don't have issue with hotbid paying himself for esportsexpress, but he should do it through sponsors/ads or other means than begging all the gaming communities to pay him through kickstarter.
I think people who write for free for TL are suckers and it's one of the reasons why esports journalism/writing is so devalued because everyone expects people to write for free for status/experience that there are very few paid writing positions in esports.
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
I know hot bid didn't write for free, hence why I said now that the shoe is on the other foot he won't write for free. I know TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees. The issue is he's fine with writers not getting paid as long as that writer isn't himself! I don't have issue with hotbid paying himself for esportsexpress, but he should do it through sponsors/ads or other means than begging all the gaming communities to pay him through kickstarter.
I think people who write for free for TL are suckers and it's one of the reasons why esports journalism/writing is so devalued because everyone expects people to write for free for status/experience that there are very few paid writing positions in esports.
But he did work for free for a long time, and there is a world of difference between running your own site (especially if you plan on living off it - you can't actually live without getting paid) and writing, for example, on TL. The situations are different. Obviously I'd love to get paid, but not getting paid doesn't bother me or anyone else doing this for free.
If you are interested in contributing, here's how you can apply. Send an email with the title "TL Graphics Application" and the following content to recruitment@teamliquid.net.
Brief introduction of yourself, your graphics background, and list of artistic skills. Portfolio of your work. An example of a piece you would do for TeamLiquid.net. This can be artwork for a news post (any league, past or present, real or fictional), a mock up version of any website feature (sidebar, forums, liquibet, icons, etc), any kind of short video, or something totally outside the box. Please put Graphic Designer or whatever you feel best describes your profile in the subject line.
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
I know hot bid didn't write for free, hence why I said now that the shoe is on the other foot he won't write for free. I know TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees. The issue is he's fine with writers not getting paid as long as that writer isn't himself! I don't have issue with hotbid paying himself for esportsexpress, but he should do it through sponsors/ads or other means than begging all the gaming communities to pay him through kickstarter.
I think people who write for free for TL are suckers and it's one of the reasons why esports journalism/writing is so devalued because everyone expects people to write for free for status/experience that there are very few paid writing positions in esports.
Obviously I'd love to get paid, but not getting paid doesn't bother me or anyone else doing this for free.
Sure, but that's why it's a catch 22. You have no problem writing for free, but you devalue writing positions for everyone else by accepting volunteer work because everyone in esports expect people to write for free. However, esports isn't big enough to pay everyone for writing so there is no shortage of people willing to write for free, but then because of that there's also no incentive to pay people for writing.
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
I know hot bid didn't write for free, hence why I said now that the shoe is on the other foot he won't write for free. I guess I should have made it more clear that I meant all the writers not named hotbid/waxangel were the unpaid writers I was talking about and hotbid justified their unpaid status every time one of these recruiting posts were made.
I'm well aware that TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees like Rich, heyoka, that store dude, etc. The issue is he's fine with writers not getting paid as long as that writer isn't himself! I don't have issue with hotbid paying himself for esportsexpress, but he should do it through sponsors/ads or other means than begging all the gaming communities to pay him through kickstarter.
I think people who write for free for TL are suckers and it's one of the reasons why esports journalism/writing is so devalued because everyone expects people to write for free for status/experience that there are very few paid writing positions in esports.
It sounds like misdirected anger. You're angry at those who take advantage (malicious or not) of a willing community: financially or through effort/interest.
Also, you're only sucker for writing for free if you find no personal interest/value/advantage/worth. I only wrote for free if I felt I was learning something and it improved my CV. Nothing wrong with that and if that's what motivated me back then, then godspeed (and to those who think similarly).
I did a lot of things for free, but I always made sure I could take something from it and, in turn, it got me a lot of mainstream opportunities in an industry (gaming and eSports) that would otherwise be difficult to enter without prior applicable experience + results and/or a specific programming degree (computer science - I have Sociology).
eSports journalism is devalued because of two issues: 1. target audience have varying levels of interest/attention spans (video over text, etc. -- this is normal) and 2. the quality of writing and subjects are pretty awful/shock value/controversy. But honestly, that's an article in of itself.
I feel like someone should write a series of "how to get into eSports/working in the gaming industry from eSports" and take anecdotes/experiences from a variety of people of different fields, levels, work.
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
I know hot bid didn't write for free, hence why I said now that the shoe is on the other foot he won't write for free. I guess I should have made it more clear that I meant all the writers not named hotbid/waxangel were the unpaid writers I was talking about and hotbid justified their unpaid status every time one of these recruiting posts were made.
I'm well aware that TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees like Rich, heyoka, that store dude, etc. The issue is he's fine with writers not getting paid as long as that writer isn't himself! I don't have issue with hotbid paying himself for esportsexpress, but he should do it through sponsors/ads or other means than begging all the gaming communities to pay him through kickstarter.
I think people who write for free for TL are suckers and it's one of the reasons why esports journalism/writing is so devalued because everyone expects people to write for free for status/experience that there are very few paid writing positions in esports.
It sounds like misdirected anger. You're angry at those who take advantage (malicious or not) of a willing community: financially or through effort/interest.
Nah, I'm not angry since I'm not a writer so have no skin in this game. I just feel that as a main popular site it's kind of inexcusable for TL not to pay writers even if it's just a nominal amount. If a site like TL won't take the lead in paying writers, then it's pretty bleak for everyone else. Do not misconstrue criticism for actual anger. Real anger will be if parting cheeses mkp out of hot six tonight!
I agree with you that volunteer work is only one of the reasons why writing is devalued and there are lots of reasons like you mentioned such as short attention spans, preference for video, etc. That's why I thought ongamers was good because they made it a point to pay writers.....but then reddit killed them. R.I.P. Ongamers!
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
I know hot bid didn't write for free, hence why I said now that the shoe is on the other foot he won't write for free. I guess I should have made it more clear that I meant all the writers not named hotbid/waxangel were the unpaid writers I was talking about and hotbid justified their unpaid status every time one of these recruiting posts were made.
I'm well aware that TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees like Rich, heyoka, that store dude, etc. The issue is he's fine with writers not getting paid as long as that writer isn't himself! I don't have issue with hotbid paying himself for esportsexpress, but he should do it through sponsors/ads or other means than begging all the gaming communities to pay him through kickstarter.
I think people who write for free for TL are suckers and it's one of the reasons why esports journalism/writing is so devalued because everyone expects people to write for free for status/experience that there are very few paid writing positions in esports.
It sounds like misdirected anger. You're angry at those who take advantage (malicious or not) of a willing community: financially or through effort/interest.
Nah, I'm not angry since I'm not a writer so have no skin in this game. I just feel that as a main popular site it's kind of inexcusable for TL not to pay writers even if it's just a nominal amount. If a site like TL won't take the lead in paying writers, then it's pretty bleak for everyone else.
I agree with you that volunteer work is only one of the reasons why writing is devalued and there are lots of reasons like you mentioned such as short attention spans, preference for video, etc. That's why I thought ongamers was good because they made it a point to pay writers.....but then reddit killed them. R.I.P. Ongamers!
Like I've said about 37 times elsewhere, we do receive perks - some of them significant. We just don't actually get cash for our efforts.
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
I know hot bid didn't write for free, hence why I said now that the shoe is on the other foot he won't write for free. I guess I should have made it more clear that I meant all the writers not named hotbid/waxangel were the unpaid writers I was talking about and hotbid justified their unpaid status every time one of these recruiting posts were made.
I'm well aware that TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees like Rich, heyoka, that store dude, etc. The issue is he's fine with writers not getting paid as long as that writer isn't himself! I don't have issue with hotbid paying himself for esportsexpress, but he should do it through sponsors/ads or other means than begging all the gaming communities to pay him through kickstarter.
I think people who write for free for TL are suckers and it's one of the reasons why esports journalism/writing is so devalued because everyone expects people to write for free for status/experience that there are very few paid writing positions in esports.
It sounds like misdirected anger. You're angry at those who take advantage (malicious or not) of a willing community: financially or through effort/interest.
Nah, I'm not angry since I'm not a writer so have no skin in this game. I just feel that as a main popular site it's kind of inexcusable for TL not to pay writers even if it's just a nominal amount. If a site like TL won't take the lead in paying writers, then it's pretty bleak for everyone else. Do not misconstrue criticism for actual anger. Real anger will be if parting cheeses mkp out of hot six tonight!
I agree with you that volunteer work is only one of the reasons why writing is devalued and there are lots of reasons like you mentioned such as short attention spans, preference for video, etc. That's why I thought ongamers was good because they made it a point to pay writers.....but then reddit killed them. R.I.P. Ongamers!
I mean, the way you wrote it came off as if you're proud that you didn't get tricked or something. Maybe it was just your initial emotions when you wrote it or it's me.
I think before you go after TeamLiquid, you should go after companies that makes products and don't pay their writers: Blizzard Entertainment, Razor for starters (. Even Riot Games pays by commission and Red Bull. I guess comparison is a poor excuse but in the end but the original argument stands in that their approach in attracting writers is still working.
I think OnGamers is a different subject that I won't touch on to be frank. Too much to be said!
To add, TL fosters a community and then cycles that community following and interest into a willing crew to contribute. I think that perspective is justified. It's not like they're leeching off the eSports scene but specifically targeting their own community members to see if they'd like to do and be more with what makes this site and community so great.
As opposed to other companies/sites that simply want to take advantage of a community without establishing any foundation, personal footing or connection with that community.
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
I know hot bid didn't write for free, hence why I said now that the shoe is on the other foot he won't write for free. I guess I should have made it more clear that I meant all the writers not named hotbid/waxangel were the unpaid writers I was talking about and hotbid justified their unpaid status every time one of these recruiting posts were made.
I'm well aware that TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees like Rich, heyoka, that store dude, etc. The issue is he's fine with writers not getting paid as long as that writer isn't himself! I don't have issue with hotbid paying himself for esportsexpress, but he should do it through sponsors/ads or other means than begging all the gaming communities to pay him through kickstarter.
I think people who write for free for TL are suckers and it's one of the reasons why esports journalism/writing is so devalued because everyone expects people to write for free for status/experience that there are very few paid writing positions in esports.
It sounds like misdirected anger. You're angry at those who take advantage (malicious or not) of a willing community: financially or through effort/interest.
Nah, I'm not angry since I'm not a writer so have no skin in this game. I just feel that as a main popular site it's kind of inexcusable for TL not to pay writers even if it's just a nominal amount. If a site like TL won't take the lead in paying writers, then it's pretty bleak for everyone else. Do not misconstrue criticism for actual anger. Real anger will be if parting cheeses mkp out of hot six tonight!
I agree with you that volunteer work is only one of the reasons why writing is devalued and there are lots of reasons like you mentioned such as short attention spans, preference for video, etc. That's why I thought ongamers was good because they made it a point to pay writers.....but then reddit killed them. R.I.P. Ongamers!
I think before you go after TeamLiquid, you should go after companies that makes products and don't pay their writers: Blizzard Entertainment, Razor for starters (. Even Riot Games pays by commission and Red Bull. I guess comparison is a poor excuse but in the end but the original argument stands in that their approach in attracting writers is still working.
Sure, I take issues with those other companies as well which is why I also stated generalities about everyone in esports expecting people to write for free. This thread is about TL looking for volunteers though, but I have no issue calling out razor, etc if you wish since those are equally as bad.
TL Strat was born because a few of us thought of something cool and that we'd enjoy doing, and then we just fucking did it, found out people in the community we all come from liked it, and kept doing it, and it's grown into way more than we ever thought. Nothing else required. It's that simple. The same can be said about every single aspect of TL.
On December 02 2014 05:44 Teoita wrote: You really don't get what TL is about do you?
TL Strat was born because a few of us thought of something cool and that we'd enjoy doing, and then we just fucking did it, found out people in the community we all come from liked it, and kept doing it, and it's grown into way more than we ever thought. Nothing else required. It's that simple. The same can be said about every single aspect of TL.
Maybe it's because I didn't follow broodwar so have no nostalgic feelings about TL from back in the day as a community/fan driven site is why I can level criticism more easily at it than others. I found TL when SC2 was released and I remember one of the first things I read was a long mission statement write up about the new direction of TL and changing it from a strictly community/fan site and turning it into a for profit site as a business.
Sure the community aspect is still there, but I separate that from the business of running the site. Since they're a for profit site my criticism reflects that. I would cut them more slack if they were just a fan driven small site like back in the day. I understand your love for TL and willingness to write for free. However, I just don't feel like TL should be given a free pass for any criticism.
On December 02 2014 05:44 Teoita wrote: You really don't get what TL is about do you?
TL Strat was born because a few of us thought of something cool and that we'd enjoy doing, and then we just fucking did it, found out people in the community we all come from liked it, and kept doing it, and it's grown into way more than we ever thought. Nothing else required. It's that simple. The same can be said about every single aspect of TL.
To add to this, you don't have to be a great player to become a great coach
On December 02 2014 05:44 Teoita wrote: You really don't get what TL is about do you?
TL Strat was born because a few of us thought of something cool and that we'd enjoy doing, and then we just fucking did it, found out people in the community we all come from liked it, and kept doing it, and it's grown into way more than we ever thought. Nothing else required. It's that simple. The same can be said about every single aspect of TL.
Sure the community aspect is still there, but I separate that from the business of running the site. Since they're a for profit site my criticism reflects that. I would cut them more slack if they were just a fan driven small site like back in the day. I understand your love for TL and willingness to write for free. However, I just don't feel like TL should be given a free pass for any criticism.
I don't think you understand just how much of TL is driven by volunteers and wouldn't be possible without them.
Isn't it pretty simple? I mean, TL wants to give coverage to people. They don't pay (except from other perks or whatever). If you don't want to write unpaid, you don't. If you do want to write about starcraft, and don't mind doing that unpaid, you apply. Pros are getting better at writing, getting experience in a professional organisation (if one doesn't have it already), getting to talk about things you like and getting an audience for the things you think are important aspects of the things you like. Cons are the time it takes. Not getting payed is not a con, getting paid would be a pro. If you don't want to be a writer for said reasons and think it's a waste of time that's fine, but don't come here complaining when there are other people who do. TL offers, one declines or accepts. I really don't get what's more to it than this.
I wouldn't want to be a writer for tl as I don't have enough passion and i can't write. edit: Or maybe I'd want to write for tl if I had enough passion and could write.
On December 02 2014 05:44 Teoita wrote: You really don't get what TL is about do you?
TL Strat was born because a few of us thought of something cool and that we'd enjoy doing, and then we just fucking did it, found out people in the community we all come from liked it, and kept doing it, and it's grown into way more than we ever thought. Nothing else required. It's that simple. The same can be said about every single aspect of TL.
Sure the community aspect is still there, but I separate that from the business of running the site. Since they're a for profit site my criticism reflects that. I would cut them more slack if they were just a fan driven small site like back in the day. I understand your love for TL and willingness to write for free. However, I just don't feel like TL should be given a free pass for any criticism.
I don't think you understand just how much of TL is driven by volunteers and wouldn't be possible without them.
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
I'm well aware that TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees like Rich, heyoka, that store dude, etc. .
I've mentioned in the past in other recruitment threads that it's a genius business model TL has that they have an army of volunteers to run the site while paying only like 5% of the people, ie their core employees. Microsoft, Apple, etc would love to only pay 5% of their workers too if they could. It's not a realistic model for most companies, but works for TL, so more power to them! I can admit to the genius of their business model, but still criticize them for it. The change from bw to sc2 didn't change the level of volunteerism needed to run the site. It just meant they could pay Rich, kennigit, hotbid, wax angel, etc.
On December 02 2014 06:36 Canucklehead wrote: I've mentioned in the past in other recruitment threads that it's a genius business model TL has that ...
Okay, whats your deal then? Especially if you keep doing that every time a recruitment thread pops up. And nothing has changed! Is the intention to continue repeating yourself until people start doing what you think they should be doing and how?
Or do you somehow think that lamenting your concerns would dishearten people enough to not apply? What's the edge here, help me out here
On December 02 2014 06:36 Canucklehead wrote: I've mentioned in the past in other recruitment threads that it's a genius business model TL has that ...
Okay, whats your deal then? Especially if you keep doing that every time a recruitment thread pops up. And nothing has changed! Is the intention to continue repeating yourself until people start doing what you think they should be doing and how?
Or do you somehow think that lamenting your concerns would dishearten people enough to not apply? What's the edge here, help me out here
Nah, the reasoning here is it's just a discussion point that is relevant each time a recruitment thread is posted. I'm not the only person in this thread who has pointed out it's not that cool to always ask for volunteers. I'm just the one you guys have focused on to reply to since I made a longer than one line response showing my reasoning and why I take issue with it.
I don't really want to discourage people from applying and I guess my sucker comment could be read like that, but that was more of a throwaway snarky comment than a super strong opinion on it. I do think the level of volunteerism is an issue in esports, so I do think it's always a relevant discussion point to bring up, which is why I bring it up in these threads. It's not like I go in random threads to talk about volunteerism in esports. I do think it's a valid discussion point. You guys disagree with that and we'll just have to agree to disagree.
So since you understand that TL wouldn't be possible without these over 200 volunteers, how exactly are you coming to the conclusion that TL would be able to pay them? The volunteers don't make TL an extremely rich organisation, they make it possible for TL to exist. They make it possible for people like you to come to the site and complain about why they're not getting paid, and even call them out for volunteering? You wouldn't even be here if they didn't.
On December 02 2014 06:36 Canucklehead wrote: I've mentioned in the past in other recruitment threads that it's a genius business model TL has that ...
Okay, whats your deal then? Especially if you keep doing that every time a recruitment thread pops up. And nothing has changed! Is the intention to continue repeating yourself until people start doing what you think they should be doing and how?
Or do you somehow think that lamenting your concerns would dishearten people enough to not apply? What's the edge here, help me out here
Nah, the reasoning here is it's just a discussion point that is relevant each time a recruitment thread is posted. I'm not the only person in this thread who has pointed out it's not that cool to always ask for volunteers. I'm just the one you guys have focused on to reply to since I made a longer than one line response showing my reasoning and why I take issue with it.
Are you that guy on Kickstarter who tells people not to crowd source for their projects, because it's taking advantage of everyone who decides, of their own free will, to give them money?
Your concerns might have made sense if eSports was this lucrative industry and everyone volunteering here were reasonably expecting to get great jobs after "slaving" away a couple of years writing content for a game they're passionate about. But there are no such expectations. You think Hot_Bid, the success story, is rolling around in cash and inspiring thousands of would-be entrepreneurs to follow in his footsteps for years to come? I doubt it.
This crusade is sorely misplaced. Try advocating for writers and actors entering the entertainment industry, they need it.
On December 02 2014 06:51 DarkLordOlli wrote: So since you understand that TL wouldn't be possible without these over 200 volunteers, how exactly are you coming to the conclusion that TL would be able to pay them? The volunteers don't make TL an extremely rich organisation, they make it possible for TL to exist. They make it possible for people like you to come to the site and complain about why they're not getting paid, and even calling them out for volunteering? You wouldn't even be here if they didn't.
Surely you must realize the irony.
No, I realize TL wouldn't exist without volunteers, hence why I said it's a genius business model. When ongamers got the reddit ban Sir Scoots would tweet things like if your business survival relies on reddit then you have a bad business model. The same could be said of TL sort of like if your business model relies on volunteers to exist, then you have a bad business model. Except in TL's case it's a genius business model because it works for them, but they're an exception. Ongamers could have survived if it was volunteer based like TL.
If TL died because all the volunteers left one day, then so be it. Other sites like reddit would take its place. If TL can't afford to pay all their volunteers then run a kickstarter like hotbid. At least then people would get paid and I wouldn't have issue with it since kickstarter is a choice for people to donate.
On December 02 2014 06:36 Canucklehead wrote: I've mentioned in the past in other recruitment threads that it's a genius business model TL has that ...
Okay, whats your deal then? Especially if you keep doing that every time a recruitment thread pops up. And nothing has changed! Is the intention to continue repeating yourself until people start doing what you think they should be doing and how?
Or do you somehow think that lamenting your concerns would dishearten people enough to not apply? What's the edge here, help me out here
Nah, the reasoning here is it's just a discussion point that is relevant each time a recruitment thread is posted. I'm not the only person in this thread who has pointed out it's not that cool to always ask for volunteers. I'm just the one you guys have focused on to reply to since I made a longer than one line response showing my reasoning and why I take issue with it.
Are you that guy on Kickstarter who tells people not to crowd source for their projects, because it's taking advantage of everyone who decides, of their own free will, to give them money?
No, I'm actually pro kickstarter because people have a choice to donate there. I never tell people where to donate their money to and think it's in bad taste to tell them to. Like during the ALS ice bucket challenge when critics were like donate to starving african children instead! People are free to pick the charities they donate to.
On December 02 2014 06:51 DarkLordOlli wrote: So since you understand that TL wouldn't be possible without these over 200 volunteers, how exactly are you coming to the conclusion that TL would be able to pay them? The volunteers don't make TL an extremely rich organisation, they make it possible for TL to exist. They make it possible for people like you to come to the site and complain about why they're not getting paid, and even calling them out for volunteering? You wouldn't even be here if they didn't.
Surely you must realize the irony.
No, I realize TL wouldn't exist without volunteers, hence why I said it's a genius business model. When ongamers got the reddit ban Sir Scoots would tweet things like if your business survival relies on reddit then you have a bad business model. The same could be said of TL sort of like if your business model relies on volunteers to exist, then you have a bad business model. Except in TL's case it's a genius business model because it works for them, but they're an exception. Ongamers could have survived if it was volunteer based like TL.
If TL died because all the volunteers left one day, then so be it. Other sites like reddit would take its place. If TL can't afford to pay all their volunteers then run a kickstarter like hotbid. At least then people would get paid and I wouldn't have issue with it since kickstarter is a choice for people to donate.
I don't really see where a business model comes into this. Most community forums don't aim to make a lot of a ton of money.
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
I know hot bid didn't write for free, hence why I said now that the shoe is on the other foot he won't write for free. I know TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees. The issue is he's fine with writers not getting paid as long as that writer isn't himself! I don't have issue with hotbid paying himself for esportsexpress, but he should do it through sponsors/ads or other means than begging all the gaming communities to pay him through kickstarter.
I think people who write for free for TL are suckers and it's one of the reasons why esports journalism/writing is so devalued because everyone expects people to write for free for status/experience that there are very few paid writing positions in esports.
Obviously I'd love to get paid, but not getting paid doesn't bother me or anyone else doing this for free.
Sure, but that's why it's a catch 22. You have no problem writing for free, but you devalue writing positions for everyone else by accepting volunteer work because everyone in esports expect people to write for free. However, esports isn't big enough to pay everyone for writing so there is no shortage of people willing to write for free, but then because of that there's also no incentive to pay people for writing.
...devalue? People visiting the site will look at articles and marvel at the amazing volunteers who got together and created what is practically a work of art. They won't think less of them for not being paid (a point, I might note, is only brought up in these threads).
On December 02 2014 06:51 DarkLordOlli wrote: So since you understand that TL wouldn't be possible without these over 200 volunteers, how exactly are you coming to the conclusion that TL would be able to pay them? The volunteers don't make TL an extremely rich organisation, they make it possible for TL to exist. They make it possible for people like you to come to the site and complain about why they're not getting paid, and even calling them out for volunteering? You wouldn't even be here if they didn't.
Surely you must realize the irony.
No, I realize TL wouldn't exist without volunteers, hence why I said it's a genius business model. When ongamers got the reddit ban Sir Scoots would tweet things like if your business survival relies on reddit then you have a bad business model. The same could be said of TL sort of like if your business model relies on volunteers to exist, then you have a bad business model. Except in TL's case it's a genius business model because it works for them, but they're an exception. Ongamers could have survived if it was volunteer based like TL.
If TL died because all the volunteers left one day, then so be it. Other sites like reddit would take its place. If TL can't afford to pay all their volunteers then run a kickstarter like hotbid. At least then people would get paid and I wouldn't have issue with it since kickstarter is a choice for people to donate.
I don't really see where a business model comes into this. Most community forums don't aim to make a lot of a ton of money.
That's the thing though. You see TL as just community forums. I see TL for the whole thing as a for profit esports site and all my comments reflect that.
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
I know hot bid didn't write for free, hence why I said now that the shoe is on the other foot he won't write for free. I know TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees. The issue is he's fine with writers not getting paid as long as that writer isn't himself! I don't have issue with hotbid paying himself for esportsexpress, but he should do it through sponsors/ads or other means than begging all the gaming communities to pay him through kickstarter.
I think people who write for free for TL are suckers and it's one of the reasons why esports journalism/writing is so devalued because everyone expects people to write for free for status/experience that there are very few paid writing positions in esports.
Obviously I'd love to get paid, but not getting paid doesn't bother me or anyone else doing this for free.
Sure, but that's why it's a catch 22. You have no problem writing for free, but you devalue writing positions for everyone else by accepting volunteer work because everyone in esports expect people to write for free. However, esports isn't big enough to pay everyone for writing so there is no shortage of people willing to write for free, but then because of that there's also no incentive to pay people for writing.
...devalue? People visiting the site will look at articles and marvel at the amazing volunteers who got together and created what is practically a work of art. They won't think less of them for not being paid (a point, I might note, is only brought up in these threads).
No, you misunderstand. When I say devalue, I don't mean devalue their actual writing work. I mean devalue what sort of compensation that great work deserves. I have no idea on writing fees so I'm just making up numbers here for illustration, but let's say a writer does fantastic work which would normally cost $500/article. If that writer is willing to write for free instead of taking a fair wage for it, then it devalues the writing position for others. The larger the volunteer pool, the less incentive companies have to pay people a fair wage. If a company knows they can hire great writers for free, they have no incentive to pay them what their work is actually worth.
That part isn't just about TL and applies to razor, etc who only want to hire volunteer writers. I'm aware that esports isn't a huge industry so has to rely on a lot of volunteerism, but it eventually needs to move away from volunteerism in order to become a legitimate industry to work in. You could say that my criticism is unfair due to the realities of the esports industry and that's a fair comment to make. I still think it's a valid talking point though.
On December 02 2014 06:51 DarkLordOlli wrote: So since you understand that TL wouldn't be possible without these over 200 volunteers, how exactly are you coming to the conclusion that TL would be able to pay them? The volunteers don't make TL an extremely rich organisation, they make it possible for TL to exist. They make it possible for people like you to come to the site and complain about why they're not getting paid, and even calling them out for volunteering? You wouldn't even be here if they didn't.
Surely you must realize the irony.
No, I realize TL wouldn't exist without volunteers, hence why I said it's a genius business model. When ongamers got the reddit ban Sir Scoots would tweet things like if your business survival relies on reddit then you have a bad business model. The same could be said of TL sort of like if your business model relies on volunteers to exist, then you have a bad business model. Except in TL's case it's a genius business model because it works for them, but they're an exception. Ongamers could have survived if it was volunteer based like TL.
If TL died because all the volunteers left one day, then so be it. Other sites like reddit would take its place. If TL can't afford to pay all their volunteers then run a kickstarter like hotbid. At least then people would get paid and I wouldn't have issue with it since kickstarter is a choice for people to donate.
I don't really see where a business model comes into this. Most community forums don't aim to make a lot of a ton of money.
That's the thing though. You see TL as just community forums. I see TL for the whole thing as a for profit esports site and all my comments reflect that.
I see that, but I don't think the initial goal for TL.net as a website is to make profit as an organisation reporting esports.
This discussion all boils down to a basic distinction in goals for TL.net: 1. Primarily used for exposure of the team, the game, as a place for the community to hang out and have fun. 2. Primarily for making profit as a result of producing SC2 (Hearthstone/Dota) related content.
In case 1, there's no need to talk about salaries/paying contributors. In case 2, the moral (and possibly legal) issue arises whether you can make money off other peoples work without compensating them for it.
As I see it, we're in case 1 and the people contributing enjoy doing so and enjoy doing their fair share for the community they love.
On December 02 2014 06:51 DarkLordOlli wrote: So since you understand that TL wouldn't be possible without these over 200 volunteers, how exactly are you coming to the conclusion that TL would be able to pay them? The volunteers don't make TL an extremely rich organisation, they make it possible for TL to exist. They make it possible for people like you to come to the site and complain about why they're not getting paid, and even calling them out for volunteering? You wouldn't even be here if they didn't.
Surely you must realize the irony.
No, I realize TL wouldn't exist without volunteers, hence why I said it's a genius business model. When ongamers got the reddit ban Sir Scoots would tweet things like if your business survival relies on reddit then you have a bad business model. The same could be said of TL sort of like if your business model relies on volunteers to exist, then you have a bad business model. Except in TL's case it's a genius business model because it works for them, but they're an exception. Ongamers could have survived if it was volunteer based like TL.
If TL died because all the volunteers left one day, then so be it. Other sites like reddit would take its place. If TL can't afford to pay all their volunteers then run a kickstarter like hotbid. At least then people would get paid and I wouldn't have issue with it since kickstarter is a choice for people to donate.
I don't really see where a business model comes into this. Most community forums don't aim to make a lot of a ton of money.
That's the thing though. You see TL as just community forums. I see TL for the whole thing as a for profit esports site and all my comments reflect that.
I see that, but I don't think the initial goal for TL.net as a website is to make profit as an organisation reporting esports.
Yes, I know TL started out as a fan site and not a for profit site. That's why I brought up that mission statement article I read when SC2 was released about TL changing from a non profit site to a for profit site. That article is real old now, so I'll see if I can google it.
I can't find the article now. Maybe someone else is better at finding TL articles from 2010 than me. It was a big write up around the time SC 2 was released.
On December 02 2014 07:10 Canucklehead wrote:No, I'm actually pro kickstarter because people have a choice to donate there. I never tell people where to donate their money to and think it's in bad taste to tell them to. Like during the ALS ice bucket challenge when critics were like donate to starving african children instead! People are free to pick the charities they donate to.
Yes, and people are donating their time to TL by volunteering.
I hope you're not going to suggest some organizations deserve donations more than others in response.
On December 02 2014 07:10 Canucklehead wrote:No, I'm actually pro kickstarter because people have a choice to donate there. I never tell people where to donate their money to and think it's in bad taste to tell them to. Like during the ALS ice bucket challenge when critics were like donate to starving african children instead! People are free to pick the charities they donate to.
Yes, and people are donating their time to TL by volunteering.
I hope you're not going to suggest some organizations deserve donations more than others in response.
No, my stance has always been pro people getting fair compensation for their work. I guess I see volunteering for a for profit business as different than volunteering for a non profit business. I've said my piece on this so will refrain from commentating further now since there's nothing more to add.
On December 02 2014 07:10 Canucklehead wrote:No, I'm actually pro kickstarter because people have a choice to donate there. I never tell people where to donate their money to and think it's in bad taste to tell them to. Like during the ALS ice bucket challenge when critics were like donate to starving african children instead! People are free to pick the charities they donate to.
Yes, and people are donating their time to TL by volunteering.
I hope you're not going to suggest some organizations deserve donations more than others in response.
No, my stance has always been pro people getting fair compensation for their work. I guess I see volunteering for a for profit business as different than volunteering for a non profit business. I've said my piece on this so will refrain from commentating further now since there's nothing more to add.
On December 02 2014 06:51 DarkLordOlli wrote: So since you understand that TL wouldn't be possible without these over 200 volunteers, how exactly are you coming to the conclusion that TL would be able to pay them? The volunteers don't make TL an extremely rich organisation, they make it possible for TL to exist. They make it possible for people like you to come to the site and complain about why they're not getting paid, and even calling them out for volunteering? You wouldn't even be here if they didn't.
Surely you must realize the irony.
No, I realize TL wouldn't exist without volunteers, hence why I said it's a genius business model. When ongamers got the reddit ban Sir Scoots would tweet things like if your business survival relies on reddit then you have a bad business model. The same could be said of TL sort of like if your business model relies on volunteers to exist, then you have a bad business model. Except in TL's case it's a genius business model because it works for them, but they're an exception. Ongamers could have survived if it was volunteer based like TL.
If TL died because all the volunteers left one day, then so be it. Other sites like reddit would take its place. If TL can't afford to pay all their volunteers then run a kickstarter like hotbid. At least then people would get paid and I wouldn't have issue with it since kickstarter is a choice for people to donate.
I don't really see where a business model comes into this. Most community forums don't aim to make a lot of a ton of money.
That's the thing though. You see TL as just community forums. I see TL for the whole thing as a for profit esports site and all my comments reflect that.
I see that, but I don't think the initial goal for TL.net as a website is to make profit as an organisation reporting esports.
Yes, I know TL started out as a fan site and not a for profit site. That's why I brought up that mission statement article I read when SC2 was released about TL changing from a non profit site to a for profit site. That article is real old now, so I'll see if I can google it.
I can't find the article now. Maybe someone else is better at finding TL articles from 2010 than me. It was a big write up around the time SC 2 was released.
You do realize that you're being argued down by every writer here, right?
Literally, your argument is invalid because the apparent fools that we are simply DO NOT CARE that we aren't getting paid. If I weren't writing as part of the organization, I would be releasing my own strategy blogs because I just like to write about strategy. In fact, this is what I was doing before I was asked to join the all-volunteer group that made articles 100x better.
I consider writing for TL Strategy a job that a do for free, much like Day9 treated his dailies. Ultimately, his work grew into a self-supporting business, and he was able to make a career off of it. I, myself, have been contacted before by other sites willing to pay me for my work, but they requested stronger turn around time and lower quality articles for very little; if TL paid its writers, this is probably the model they would use, and, by result, it would not be the #1 hub of English-speaking ESPORTS news, strategy, and discussion.
You have to understand that what you are saying is simply wrong. You are on the outside of what goes on, and you can't possibly understand what we do unless you do it yourself. It doesn't matter that "TL is a for-profit business" -- we do the work for free because we would do the work anyway; we gain by the experience, create new friendships, and are enriched by the experience in a way that lower quality paid writing position would never bestow upon us.
I'd like to correct something you mentioned about reddit. Reddit is nothing more than a giant content aggregator that completely depends on the work of others to function correctly. If for example TL stopped all SC coverage, reddit would not be in a position to do anything about it, except pray that someone else decided to fill the void.
I actually really dislike reddits content model. It might get people more views on their articles, and it is in a way very convenient, but unfortunately a major downside is that it siphons off quite a bit of discussion from the original source, thereby reducing the actual creators traffic, and subsequent ad revenue. Great for reddit, terrible for everyone else.
Also, don't think a lot of people who work for / run non-profits work for free either. It's just a different business model, and people still make their salaries. Often times, a lot of the "profits" end up going into a larger percentage of administrative costs than similar "for profit" businesses.
I would just think of writing for TL as a hobby more than a job. It's more applicable than posting random musings on a personal blog.
yes there's probably a misconception by a lot of people to what a 501c3 does (non-profit). A 501c3 does in fact generate revenue, but the whole reason for their classification is that the business model of these organizations is so that they aren't making boatloads of cash but are generally hovering around the 'breaking even' line.
On December 02 2014 08:18 Mysticesper wrote: Also, don't think a lot of people who work for / run non-profits work for free either. It's just a different business model, and people still make their salaries. Often times, a lot of the "profits" end up going into a larger percentage of administrative costs than similar "for profit" businesses.
I would just think of writing for TL as a hobby more than a job. It's more applicable than posting random musings on a personal blog.
Oh yeah I didn't mean to imply non profit workers work for free as full time workers still make salaries. I was talking more about someone volunteering over a weekend or something like that for a charity or cause.
I'd like to correct something you mentioned about reddit. Reddit is nothing more than a giant content aggregator that completely depends on the work of others to function correctly. If for example TL stopped all SC coverage, reddit would not be in a position to do anything about it, except pray that someone else decided to fill the void.
I actually really dislike reddits content model. It might get people more views on their articles, and it is in a way very convenient, but unfortunately a major downside is that it siphons off quite a bit of discussion from the original source, thereby reducing the actual creators traffic, and subsequent ad revenue. Great for reddit, terrible for everyone else.
Oh yes, I know reddit is a site aggregator that relies on other sites for content. One of my favourite reddits is the android one and I used to visit a lot of different phone sites to read articles, but now I just read reddit as any good phone article finds its way on reddit. Sure it's bad for the sites that I don't visit them anymore, but that's just the reality of how reddit changed things now.
I'll disagree with you about the starcraft reddit though. Very few of the reddit posts are original TL written stories and the majority of them are just articles from elsewhere, general news, or just a topic in this forum that is cross posted there as well or just a meme/video, etc. For example, one of the top posts there right now is squirtle retires with a team liquid link. That however isn't an original TL story and is just a twitter post in a TL thread. Therefore, if TL stopped all SC coverage, it would have very little effect on the sc2 reddit because like I said very few of the posts there are original TL written stories. It's just a simple numbers game. TL isn't writing 20 articles a day, but there are tons of reddit posts per day so there is never a flood of TL original content on reddit. Any TL story on reddit is just a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things there.
If you want to write things and you want to get paid, you need to go somewhere else.
If you want a join a team of people who love StarCraft (and other games) and contribute your time and energy while meeting cool people while learning new skills or improving on them then apply to help us out.
We don't do this for money because we don't care about money. We care about the game, and we like to create content for others.
I know for a fact if a lot of my TL strat guys weren't in TL strat they would be posting blogs or smaller strategy guides on their own. What TL strat does is bring a bunch of people together and we can help eachother make better content. Instead of just build orders you get decision making thrown in. Instead of just one VOD, you get some replays and multiple VODs.
Its about more than working on your own and being paid for work you are forced to do, its about choosing what you find passion in and working on it. All of our game analyses are because whoever wrote it fell in love with the game being analysed so much that they wanted to share that love with everyone else.
The Protoss Book was our version of an April Fool's joke. Ridiculous builds that are completely broken can be fun and when they are so broken they are on the edge of crazy its a fantastic experience working on the BO and sharing it with people.
On December 02 2014 09:05 ZeromuS wrote: Look, everyone its simple.
this entire post. seriously guys just stop fighting and read this.
nobody is saying writers shouldn't be paid. what's being said is, teamliquid is a fan site that doesn't make a profit, or if it does, any profit it makes goes toward making itself better.
contributions are welcome so that passionate people step up and make this site the best that it can be, not so that constant content is forced whether or not it deserves it. we're doing this for the love of the game here.
anyone familiar with the competitive TF2 scene should know exactly what i'm talking about with things like i49 and i52. TF2 is a game that has received absolutely no competitive love from its own developer since 2008 when they added a couple of competitive cvars to servers. literally nothing else has been added. over the course of 6 years, a community formed to try and force a competitive scene to a game that didn't get any love from the developer in that way. valve made csgo and dota 2 competitive, and they openly embrace those scenes, while they practically shun the TF2 and L4D2 comp scenes. but from the will of the community and the love for the game itself, a competitive scene was born and thrives today based entirely off of user contributions. so many things that scene takes for granted - soapdm, various leaderboards, plenty of plugins, nearly every competitive map, was made by the community, for the community. nothing was done for profit. any money raised went towards bettering the scene. multiple international tournaments - i49 and i52, specifically - were funded entirely from community contributions for the love of the game, so that a LAN could be had. all the tools to watch the games, play the games, balance the games... almost everything was made by the community. for the love of the game.
while SC2 receives plenty of love from sponsors, the developer, and more (holy shit, gameheart), it's still this shared passion and love for the game that drives TL, the same as TF2 and TF.TV. don't change that.
(also, if anyone is interested in learning about the TF2 scene or i49, the community made a fantastic documentary on their own about the entire event and the passion behind it. go watch it.)
You guys sure take his opinion beyond what it is: an opinion.
It's a valid one at that, but you don't need to keep bashing his head in as if he's missing the moral of the story (of a community). I think he gets it, just values the straight-forward answer to work: getting paid. Which is fine.
On December 04 2014 12:55 Maxilicious wrote: I have sent an email on 1 December, and I've yet to receive a reply. Do I get an email even if I do not get on?
If you are interested in writing for TL Strategy, send an email entitled "TL Strat Application" with the following content to recruitment@teamliquid.net.
If you are interested in writing for TL Strategy, send an email entitled "TL Strat Application" with the following content to recruitment@teamliquid.net.
Recruitment@teamliquid.net
We've only just started discussing it, don't worry.
If you are interested in writing for TL Strategy, send an email entitled "TL Strat Application" with the following content to recruitment@teamliquid.net.
Recruitment@teamliquid.net
We've only just started discussing it, don't worry.
Really...want to join...but... I know my skill level... (but I shouldn't be so passive about myself...but...aruhgiehfoefjsefj) Good luck to all the applicants!
On December 04 2014 17:19 Mahanaim wrote: Really...want to join...but... I know my skill level... (but I shouldn't be so passive about myself...but...aruhgiehfoefjsefj) Good luck to all the applicants!
Just try it, maybe others think your writing is better than you think it is. Also If the writers see potential, they might help you growing into a great writer no matter your current state of writing =)
On November 29 2014 21:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Guys why don't writers get paid?
Because TL knows they can snap their fingers and get people to write for free every time they make such a post. They should kickstarter it like hot bid did so writers can get paid. This is why I find hotbid's kickstarter hilarious. For years he trumpeted the fact that writing for TL is such a privilege that no payment was needed. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, heck no will he write esportsexpress for free. Nope he's got to get paid through kickstarter before he will lift a finger to write. Can't even be mad at hotbid for that because he's no sucker that will work for free.
Hot_Bid didn't for free
I know hot bid didn't write for free, hence why I said now that the shoe is on the other foot he won't write for free. I guess I should have made it more clear that I meant all the writers not named hotbid/waxangel were the unpaid writers I was talking about and hotbid justified their unpaid status every time one of these recruiting posts were made.
I'm well aware that TL is a mostly volunteer run site with only a handful of paid employees like Rich, heyoka, that store dude, etc. The issue is he's fine with writers not getting paid as long as that writer isn't himself! I don't have issue with hotbid paying himself for esportsexpress, but he should do it through sponsors/ads or other means than begging all the gaming communities to pay him through kickstarter.
I think people who write for free for TL are suckers and it's one of the reasons why esports journalism/writing is so devalued because everyone expects people to write for free for status/experience that there are very few paid writing positions in esports.
I wrote for free for 5+ years and did many projects for free, and it was a great experience and it was very rewarding. I didn't ask or get angry at TL, I didn't complain and I only asked for money when we went fulltime after literally many years of writing for free. If I didn't do TL work fulltime (none of my fulltime TL responsibilities included writing) then I'd still be writing for free. It's because I liked writing, and liked having an audience, not once did I think TL was taking advantage of me, because it's a choice I made to spend time on a hobby I enjoyed.
So I don't see how it's hypocritical like you seem to think, because its clear in a company hierarchy that volunteer writers that just joined are not gonna get paid while people who work for free for many years eventually will. It's not strange and you're making it out to be some sort of injustice.
And honestly, if your suggestion is "pay writers a nominal fee" is just kinda useless. Paying someone a really amount that doesn't really give them anything won't make a difference in quality of content or work ethic, because most of the drive behind writers is self-motivation not some crappy $5 per article that doesn't change anyone's life anyway. I challenge you to try to find a site, especially one for Starcraft, that pays proper rates and doesn't ask for volunteers. If TL could, it would, and while it does what it can for staff, it can't pay them what you think they should get.
The issue is he's fine with writers not getting paid as long as that writer isn't himself! I don't have issue with hotbid paying himself for esportsexpress, but he should do it through sponsors/ads or other means than begging all the gaming communities to pay him through kickstarter.
I think it's interesting you're "pro-KS" yet call it begging again. Kickstarter is pay X for Y. It's a slightly more intricate form of buying rather than just a charity. You're purchasing a larger goal and you get rewards. It is not something where you give X and don't get anything back.
Frankly, I'd love for all writers to get paid. The reality simply is that most sites, especially esports ones, can't afford it. If you notice, all the paid employees of TL worked a long time as volunteers. Rich, Heyoka, Disciple, myself, etc all worked for years for free. If you're asking me if I think volunteers that go above and beyond and work for years and are basically part/fulltime employees should get paid, yeah, of course they should. And they have.
So again I don't see how its inconsistent to want a new business to pay its upper level employees, because ESEX is different than TL in the sense that its core business is simply writing. The head editors and writers of ESEX are that, similar to how the head programmer, store guy, editor, etc are that for TL. If you take issue with the method of fundraising, well then you're just kind of inconsistent with how you reason things out since your argument against KS is kind of illogical.
If you are interested in writing for TL Strategy, send an email entitled "TL Strat Application" with the following content to recruitment@teamliquid.net.
Recruitment@teamliquid.net
We've only just started discussing it, don't worry.
Of course, I didn't see this post originally, and I sent my application to plexa@teamliquid.net (like it says in the OP). Is this fine, or should I re-send it to recruitment@teamliquid.net?
If you are interested in writing for TL Strategy, send an email entitled "TL Strat Application" with the following content to recruitment@teamliquid.net.
Recruitment@teamliquid.net
We've only just started discussing it, don't worry.
Of course, I didn't see this post originally, and I sent my application to plexa@teamliquid.net (like it says in the OP). Is this fine, or should I re-send it to recruitment@teamliquid.net?
is easier. That way we'll all have access to your application and you can be sure all of us will at least read it. I'm actually not sure who currently has access to the recruitment@teamliquid.net e-mail TT
On December 02 2014 07:10 Canucklehead wrote: No, I'm actually pro kickstarter because people have a choice to donate there. I never tell people where to donate their money to and think it's in bad taste to tell them to. Like during the ALS ice bucket challenge when critics were like donate to starving african children instead! People are free to pick the charities they donate to.
It is 100% a choice for writers to volunteer. It's the same for TL, if someone wants to support TL they can purchase TL gear, they can volunteer time, they can disable adblock, etc. In fact I'd argue that volunteering time to write articles is far more valuable to TL than just giving the site some money.
I do not see how the actual process of giving money to a KS is any different really, you're giving X to get Y back. Y in this case is helping a community you're a part of and any satisfaction you get from the actual writing and having people read your stuff. I really liked that part when I was a writer.
You make a distinction between for-profit and non-profit, but first, not all projects on KS are non profit, the majority are for profit things. Second, nothing is black and white like this. TL might be a business that tries to make money and pay its employees, but do you really think it's a company solely out to generate profits? A lot of the decision making for TL is made with the community in mind and not necessarily about money. Yes, sometimes these interests align and are mutually beneficial.
Additionally, if you think nonprofits are so great you really should look up the causes people are supporting, because those charities make boatloads of money and spend so much on marketing and executive salaries -- oftentimes only a small % of the money actually gets to where it needs to go.
If you think its bad taste to tell people where to donate their money, then you'll understand why you're getting argued against so hard here, you're basically telling people where to volunteer their time. If they enjoy something and want to do something and fully understand the circumstances around it, why do you need to keep coming in and arguing? It's exactly what you find distasteful -- telling people where to spend their time/money.
On December 08 2014 05:52 InsidiA wrote: Never got a response, should I have by now?
On December 04 2014 13:10 lichter wrote:
On December 04 2014 13:06 Maxilicious wrote:
If you are interested in writing for TL Strategy, send an email entitled "TL Strat Application" with the following content to recruitment@teamliquid.net.
Recruitment@teamliquid.net
We've only just started discussing it, don't worry.
Of course, I didn't see this post originally, and I sent my application to plexa@teamliquid.net (like it says in the OP). Is this fine, or should I re-send it to recruitment@teamliquid.net?
is easier. That way we'll all have access to your application and you can be sure all of us will at least read it. I'm actually not sure who currently has access to the recruitment@teamliquid.net e-mail TT
If it's for writers, send it to either of the ones Zealously provided above. If it's for strat, send the application to recruitment@teamliquid.net, I have access for this one
As an addendum for TL strategy, if you are lower level sc2 player and still want to contribute, we would love to have you if you are okay with doing replay and VOD support for us :D
On December 08 2014 07:56 ZeromuS wrote: As an addendum for TL strategy, if you are lower level sc2 player and still want to contribute, we would love to have you if you are okay with doing replay and VOD support for us :D
Can we just be a guinea pig to strats or a punching bag? I'm really good at those
On December 08 2014 05:52 InsidiA wrote: Never got a response, should I have by now?
On December 04 2014 13:10 lichter wrote:
On December 04 2014 13:06 Maxilicious wrote:
If you are interested in writing for TL Strategy, send an email entitled "TL Strat Application" with the following content to recruitment@teamliquid.net.
Recruitment@teamliquid.net
We've only just started discussing it, don't worry.
Of course, I didn't see this post originally, and I sent my application to plexa@teamliquid.net (like it says in the OP). Is this fine, or should I re-send it to recruitment@teamliquid.net?
is easier. That way we'll all have access to your application and you can be sure all of us will at least read it. I'm actually not sure who currently has access to the recruitment@teamliquid.net e-mail TT
canucklehead has the causality of industry reversed. he thinks you can create paid jobs and income literally just by demanding money for a service, as if an uprising of content producers could conceivably "force" TL to start handing out money it doesn't have
he might have something vaguely resembling a point if this were anything but an extreme niche website. like, if teamliquid were actually a site about journalism in general and they were snaking around trying to get free content from people desperate to gain experience, yeah, maybe there's something to be discussed there. but this is starcraft 2/esports. the people who are into this are INTO it, and they also know they're a minority, so yeah of course they're going to be willing to volunteer. there aren't a billion people waiting in line out there to write articles about jaedong if they're fairly compensated; this community provides for itself what it can because no one else is going to
On March 05 2015 17:32 Shtanjel wrote: I know the article says that the applications are open indefinetly, but since I'm REALLY late to the party is there still a need for writers?
There's pretty much all the time a need for writers, you should message lichter, Zealously or DarkLordOlli about this, since these three manage the SC2 coverage.
If you guys decide to publish another of those mathematical analysis article, I can have a look at it while you develop the analysis. I am all sciency with master, PhD, physics, big data and papers and h-index and stuff.
Awesome, would totally sign up for the writing position if I had the time.
Still a bit sour for seeing ads on liquipedia though; it's all user-generated content, and TL gets to make money off of it, especially after campaigns on TL in the past calling posters to contribute.
On March 06 2015 01:04 EngrishTeacher wrote: Awesome, would totally sign up for the writing position if I had the time.
Still a bit sour for seeing ads on liquipedia though; it's all user-generated content, and TL gets to make money off of it, especially after campaigns on TL in the past calling posters to contribute.
Actually we need the money from the ads to pay for the servers, just saying. All the traffic can't be handled by a server you can rent for 5$ a month...
On November 29 2014 12:50 chipmonklord17 wrote: everytime I see this thread I want to apply but always end up hating my drafts if I ever even write them. Maybe I'll actually go through with it this time
I have similar feelings. I'll probably write something up and delete it upon finishing.
Same here...I always end up trashing what I wrote and think "next year"!
On November 29 2014 12:50 chipmonklord17 wrote: everytime I see this thread I want to apply but always end up hating my drafts if I ever even write them. Maybe I'll actually go through with it this time
I have similar feelings. I'll probably write something up and delete it upon finishing.
Same here...I always end up trashing what I wrote and think "next year"!
I might add that Templar did send in an application and is now a trial writer
EPT
.
All you need is the willingness to do stuff with and for likeminded people. 
