EPTLegacy of the Void: Multiplayer Development Update - Page 8
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
GoSuTemplar
Canada11 Posts
| ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
Nice! | ||
|
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 20 2014 09:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: But Protoss is still insanely immobile compared to Terran and Zerg  We'll be pulled apart, left and right x.x Protoss can be adjusted to match the new environment. | ||
|
Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
But for the life of me I cannot understand how they came to the conclusion that: LOW SUPPLY COUNT = SLOW AND BORING GAMEPLAY I don't see where they come to that conclusion. | ||
|
Cricketer12
United States13959 Posts
On November 20 2014 04:31 BronzeKnee wrote: Here is what we can try: fire David Kim and Dustin Browder. Let me balance the game. im all the fuck for this | ||
|
Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
1. Seems like everyone thinks more micro is better, just differ on the appearance/style of it. 2. The truly awesome micro EVERYONE realizes when they see it (MarineKing's splits, Parting's Blinkstalker micro). 3. If we agree that 1 and 2 are true, then you have to realize that Blizzard can ALSO see that awesome MKP/Parting micro and would love to see more of that. Whether you think they can get there or not, you should accept that they will try to get there - let's not get either too 'OMGWTFBBQ Blizz is god for wanting micro' or too 'Blizz already shit the bed on alpha LotV, dedgaem' about it. Ideas are cool, insane pessimism and fanboyism are not. | ||
|
CamoPillbox
Czech Republic229 Posts
Cause it we will see players rush into third tier units in no time so most of early middle game units will be under used or forgotten. | ||
|
Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
On November 20 2014 09:42 Jazzman88 wrote: I think everybody's getting too hung up on the invisible/visible micro question, in particular since even those of us who have played BW seem to be struggling to arrive at a definition. Can we agree on a couple of general things? 1. Seems like everyone thinks more micro is better, just differ on the appearance/style of it. 2. The truly awesome micro EVERYONE realizes when they see it (MarineKing's splits, Parting's Blinkstalker micro). 3. If we agree that 1 and 2 are true, then you have to realize that Blizzard can ALSO see that awesome MKP/Parting micro and would love to see more of that. Whether you think they can get there or not, you should accept that they will try to get there - let's not get either too 'OMGWTFBBQ Blizz is god for wanting micro' or too 'Blizz already !@#$%^&* the bed on alpha LotV, dedgaem' about it. Ideas are cool, insane pessimism and fanboyism are not. Actually I think almost everyone agrees on what awesome micro is (incl David Kim). Instead, I think the issue instead is twofold: (i) David Kim communicated horribly. He should have known that invisible micro was gonna be perceived by the public as mass spam of abilities, while what he meant was the easiness of identifying skill. (ii) David Kim and the rest of the design-team are pretty bad at creating interesting micro-interactions. | ||
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On November 20 2014 09:48 CamoPillbox wrote: Im only one who are scared that game just starts in middle without early game cause worker up from 6 to 12 . Cause it we will see players rush into third tier units in no time so most of early middle game units will be under used or forgotten. I don't think so. Early game units are used all the way until late-game in most matchups (Maybe not mech TvZ or TvT, probably not ZvP or PvZ), but they often fill a secondary role, either as some sort of single-target DPS/meatshield or as harass. While this is probably going to change in LotV some amount, most units aren't fundamentally changing so the army compositions will probably only adapt to the new units. | ||
|
LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On November 20 2014 09:31 Hider wrote: Well to be fair, I counted like 6 abilities being used by Vayne there. My point was more: the sort of variables which are dubbed "invisible" are what allowed for that play to be performed in the manner it was. No turn rate. Low attack point. Low casting points. They may be invisible variables. But without them the play wouldn't even exist. | ||
|
Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 20 2014 08:26 mishimaBeef wrote: Yeah but I yell "great micro!" when I watch what MarineKing does after pressing 1T. Imo, part of micro is for both sides to do it and not only one. When i see blink stalkers(a great micro btw) do its job iam not rly impressed since its only one side that do its thing, while the other side is "watching. Completely agrees with Micro is so much more than clicking buttons that trigger a mere bonus effect. It is about reflexes, mouse accuracy, speed of execution, anticipating adverse movements… But its only 50% true if one side can do it and the other cant. Its super important both sides can do it. | ||
|
Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
On November 20 2014 09:54 LaLuSh wrote: My point was more: the sort of variables which are dubbed "invisible" are what allowed for that play to be performed in the manner it was. No turn rate. Low attack point. Low casting points. They may be invisible variables. But without them the play wouldn't even exist. I agree, but I also think this just comes down to a misunderstanding. David Kim is a big fan of bio-play which is all about maximum responsiveness. Invisible micro to him is more like target firing Mutas with Thors, which is extremely difficult as a viewer to see. I remember watching the famous Maru vs Jaedong engagement 5 times in FPV before I actually noticed that Maru target-fired the Mutalisks with his Thors. When something is that difficult to spot, it doesn't add any value to the esport-experience (though ofc Thor target firing wasn't really something which had any downsides either. It's not like casuals really disliked using the Thor becasue it was complicated to use). If we look at the macro-perspective, I think SC2 currently is in a terrible spot. At least with BW, macro was had such a high skillcap so it differentiated players. This made it possible to create better narratives and build more hype before games, like the best micro vs the best macro player, who will win? Sc2 is more problematic: Everyone above GM have pretty solid macro. The only real difference I can notice (when I really pay attention) is that someone is better at starting upgrades just in time while other people are like 10 seconds too late. But that's so difficult to identify, and thus not an interesting skill-set. It's really problematic when you want to describe different types of players, because there are so few variables to describe them with. All you can say is that: X plays more defensive, but Y plays more offensive. Sure there are slighly more nuances than that, but it's so difficult to make a narrative describing the difference between Innovation and Taeja. So why even have the macro-perspective in the game at all? All it serves is to raise the entry-barrier without having any esport-purpose. Now obviously Sc2 cannot remove the macro-perspective, but it's a lesson to learn for future developers of the RTS-genre: Either you get almost completely rid of the macro-element or you make it much harder than it is in Sc2. The middle-of-the-road approach of Sc2 is the worst possible solution. | ||
|
Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
A Warp Prism performing a drop with two Immortals is ridiculously powerful. The Hardened Shield buff as well as ranged pick up works so well (if an opponent has no air units in play) that Protoss always gets a huge lead in the mid-game. What i do dislike is the "If an opponent has no air units in play" protoss always get a huge lead. But to not draw any conclusions(as blizzard wish) i love for races to have consistent threats such as this one. A weapon to use, to implement that strategy in the gameplay of the particular player. Ofcourse i want it to be counters and countermicro to deflect it, thats obvious, but what something like i call "consistent threat" is, the player can use it while doing something else. -Draw the enemy units somewhere else to open up this drop -Drop here, knowing that no dmg to none will be done but it will open up somewhere else to attack/gain position. While doing this move, its possible no loses will be made. Maybe its vague, maybe it is. Something like this might open up so the enemy player needs to make units himself(And not full eco, full saturated bases etc). So consistent threats for all races is really solid and fun. | ||
|
Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
What i do dislike is the "If an opponent has no air units in play" protoss always get a huge lead. Yeh, it's why I believe Blizzard makes the same error over and over. It's another problem of a hardcounter. They think that forcing players to build one unit to beat another unit is fun. In reality, it's just a ton more fun to have two units battle each other out and let it come down to micro. Baneling vs Marines would have sucked if Banelings > Marines and always forced Tanks/Mines. But letting it primarily come down to unit control, made the interaction alot more interesting. Viking vs Warp prism isn't fun. But Marine/Maurauder vs a "balanced" Warp prism/Immortal could potentially be pretty cool. So get rid of the "always get ahead" and instead make it more like "gives a skilled toss player an opportunity to get ahead if he outmicro's the terran player". | ||
|
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
See this stupid pov annoys me like nothing else. "who should balance and design a competetive rts game" "well i guess some random guy on TL" "ok let's fire our guys who have actually studied game design" Yeah makes sense... | ||
|
Lumi
United States1612 Posts
| ||
|
PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
Reality, a lot have changed in the actual product. LOTV announcement -> crowd goes beserk Reality, a lot will change before the release. Nothing new here, lets wait for the beta before rioting  | ||
|
pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On November 20 2014 06:51 TheDwf wrote: The problem with their "we'll add micro!" campaign is that they don't seem to understand what is micro (or rather interesting micro) in Starcraft to begin with. They seem to have a MOBA (or War3-like, but it cannot work when applied to a different genre) conception about it; but microing ≠ casting a spell. It is no coincidence if the race that received the biggest amount of SC2 nonsense, Protoss, has the most spellcasters—and despite that is not the most micro-intensive race! No one yells "great micro!" when a Terran presses 1T. Activating Cloak is the trivial part of Banshee micro. Waaah, the l4z0r of your Void ray is twice its size after you pressed the button; how thrilling. Micro is so much more than clicking buttons that trigger a mere bonus effect. It is about reflexes, mouse accuracy, speed of execution, anticipating adverse movements… Probably the spell that manages to add the most depth based on this is Blink, but Protoss has to pay a heavy tribute for that. Pay special attention to the kind of environement in which Blink micro is the most efficient: low or medium eco situations with only a handful of units. Certainly not the 150-200 supply scenarii which are nonetheless constantly featured since more than 2 years… If you want to see "more micro," how about allowing players to play more low or medium eco situations in which more interactions like this can occur? But instead of that you promote the high eco model that propels players towards the fateful "big engagements" in which the battle is won or lost in the 4 first seconds. Please work on solid fundamentals. An economy that makes sense. Simple units with elegant interactions. Don't bother adding 36 buttons to the Thor or the Colossus, they would still be garbage. Showering the game in MOBA gimmicks to create fake excitement that will die 4 months after LotV is out is not the way to go… Best post, deserves upvote. On November 20 2014 09:10 Hider wrote: I think one should be careful about generalizing here. In some situations, micro is indeed more rewarded with certain units in low unit count. But in many other situations, it's more rewarded with larger armies. The skillcap of controlling Marines - as an example - increases basically proportionally with the amount you have. Therefore, I think it's ideal to have a solid mix of both low army engagements and big army engagements. With Blink Stalkers, I think it would be a bit ideal to slightly turn down their efficiency in straight up engagmeents and instead allow them to be slightly better at moving around harassing in smaller groups. Instead, the Immortal should get a more important role in straight up engagements + it should be redesigned so it's actually micro rewarding (and micro =/ pressing buttons). Good response, also deserves upvote. I can't help but feel that Blizzard is really struggling with the Zealot's presence. It starts Protoss off on the wrong foot by being a tank with the finesse and responsiveness of a brick wall, and in a way, all the unit abilities that follow seem to be trying to make up for that. They really need to go back to fundamentals on units like the Zealot, Archon, and Colossus and figure out how they're supposed to reward mechanical skill and multitasking in engagements. | ||
|
Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 20 2014 10:10 Hider wrote: So get rid of the "always get ahead" and instead make it more like "gives a skilled toss player an opportunity to get ahead if he outmicro's the terran player". Or outmoves, or with strategy. Maybe keep terran occupied with this drop while doing some other stuff. The always get ahead is not fun. | ||
|
ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 20 2014 09:39 Hider wrote: I don't see where they come to that conclusion. And they're right that the 6-to-12 workers phase of the game is mostly boring as fuck. It's just the 1000 mineral thing that is debatable. | ||
| ||
