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On November 29 2014 05:53 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 04:05 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 29 2014 03:59 Hider wrote:ABCDEF+move = better results. Not really. Adding in extra clicks just for the sole purpose of extra clicks is pointless. Rather, the most interesting forms of micro is how you use the abilities/move your own units in reaction to what your enemy is doing. Just going into an engagement and then pressing a button doesn't excite any viewers nor is it fun as a player. I could have meant one of two things by my vague and obviously metaphorical "ABCDEF+move" statement, the dumb thing that you thought I meant, and the less dumb thing that you said. Why would you assume I meant the dumb thing? I did not mean the dumb thing. Because I previosuly experiemnted with tweaking charge, and too a large extent, I think it just ends up feeling just extra spams just for the purpose of extra spams. With such a massable unit, it's very hard to make manual charge feel like an interesting ability. Perhaps it's doable with the right tweaks though.
Yeah, I have tried such things too and I'm more and more of the opinion that charge or lock on should have autocast. That extra button just to start these things that you always want to do are annoying, but hardly impact higher level gameplay. I think the interesting part is when those things auto-trigger, but you have the choice to manually trigger them too.
E.g. baneling detonation, manual charge that you can use on the ground to move faster to a location, lock-on that you can also choose to target specific units (but in general the cyclone will just use it whenever possible), medivac heal (not that important that you can manually target, because Terran doesn't have high health bio units that you would want to prefer, but for teamgames). Things like that.
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On November 29 2014 05:53 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 04:05 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 29 2014 03:59 Hider wrote:ABCDEF+move = better results. Not really. Adding in extra clicks just for the sole purpose of extra clicks is pointless. Rather, the most interesting forms of micro is how you use the abilities/move your own units in reaction to what your enemy is doing. Just going into an engagement and then pressing a button doesn't excite any viewers nor is it fun as a player. I could have meant one of two things by my vague and obviously metaphorical "ABCDEF+move" statement, the dumb thing that you thought I meant, and the less dumb thing that you said. Why would you assume I meant the dumb thing? I did not mean the dumb thing. Because I previosuly experiemnted with tweaking charge, and too a large extent, I think it just ends up feeling just extra spams just for the purpose of extra spams. With such a massable unit, it's very hard to make manual charge feel like an interesting ability. Perhaps it's doable with the right tweaks though.
Oh, I see, manual Charge. Well what's interesting about this is would players use it primarily to get closer to bio, or primarily to prevent bio from retreating? Because if you use it to close the distance, then nothing's changed from HOTS - Zealots are left in the dust. But if you use it to get behind the bioball, at the very least you force them to Medivac out (giving you an opportunity to Blink in and snipe the Medivacs). Which actually sounds quite a bit like TvZ.
So I guess it comes down to can this manual Charge be used to surround bio? And if the answer is yes, then it could be very interesting even if 50% of the time it would be just extra clicks for the sake of extra clicks. If the answer is no, then that's just annoying and as you say wouldn't impress anybody.
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Zealots need a higher passive speed + a manual charge.
Only giving them a manual charge would be wrong.
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On November 29 2014 08:37 Foxxan wrote:
Zealots need a higher passive speed + a manual charge.
Only giving them a manual charge would be wrong.
Only giving them a manual charge while changing absolutely nothing else in the game would be wrong.
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A question I'd like to propose, or something I noticed, but don't quite get, is why they are changing some units already in the game, but not doing so until LotV is out.
I'm thinking here of the change to the tempest (only attacking ground) or the immortal (user activated ability to buff shields). I mean this to me is saying 'OK we should alter these units for XYZ reason', but the fact that they are not doing so now, is kind of saying 'meh fuck it, wait for LotV'.
Perhaps they feel other changes introduced in LotV will better compliment these (and other) Alterations, I can not speak for Mr Kim and his balance team.. But it just - I don't know, struck me as odd to admit changes are needed, but do nothing about it now.
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On November 29 2014 09:09 fruity. wrote:
A question I'd like to propose, or something I noticed, but don't quite get, is why they are changing some units already in the game, but not doing so until LotV is out.
I'm thinking here of the change to the tempest (only attacking ground) or the immortal (user activated ability to buff shields). I mean this to me is saying 'OK we should alter these units for XYZ reason', but the fact that they are not doing so now, is kind of saying 'meh fuck it, wait for LotV'.
Perhaps they feel other changes introduced in LotV will better compliment these (and other) Alterations, I can not speak for Mr Kim and his balance team.. But it just - I don't know, struck me as odd to admit changes are needed, but do nothing about it now.
because it would break the balance in HotS.
In LotV there will be a lot of changes to all units on top of what they propose here
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Oh, I see, manual Charge. Well what's interesting about this is would players use it primarily to get closer to bio, or primarily to prevent bio from retreating? Because if you use it to close the distance, then nothing's changed from HOTS - Zealots are left in the dust. But if you use it to get behind the bioball, at the very least you force them to Medivac out (giving you an opportunity to Blink in and snipe the Medivacs). Which actually sounds quite a bit like TvZ.
Im not sure how you actually make that work technically: So let's say you want to escape, that would mean that manual charge functions as a replacement for right-click. But if charge = right click, then it won't attack enemies when you use it offensively. So charge kinda has to have an a-move type of behaviour which implies that you only can escape if you attack your own units with it.
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On November 29 2014 09:22 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Oh, I see, manual Charge. Well what's interesting about this is would players use it primarily to get closer to bio, or primarily to prevent bio from retreating? Because if you use it to close the distance, then nothing's changed from HOTS - Zealots are left in the dust. But if you use it to get behind the bioball, at the very least you force them to Medivac out (giving you an opportunity to Blink in and snipe the Medivacs). Which actually sounds quite a bit like TvZ. Im not sure how you actually make that work technically: So let's say you want to escape, that would mean that manual charge functions as a replacement for right-click. But if charge = right click, then it won't attack enemies when you use it offensively. So charge kinda has to have an a-move type of behaviour which implies that you only can escape if you attack your own units with it.
I assumed manual Charge would be able to target any location, not just a unit. So you can C+click (behind bioball) x10 and block off bio retreat. Maybe increase the distance that Zealots can Charge to make this tactic more practical.
I'm actually kind of digging the sound of this. Zealots are supposed to be walls, basically. Living forcefields. This would allow them to do that.
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On November 29 2014 09:27 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 09:22 Hider wrote:Oh, I see, manual Charge. Well what's interesting about this is would players use it primarily to get closer to bio, or primarily to prevent bio from retreating? Because if you use it to close the distance, then nothing's changed from HOTS - Zealots are left in the dust. But if you use it to get behind the bioball, at the very least you force them to Medivac out (giving you an opportunity to Blink in and snipe the Medivacs). Which actually sounds quite a bit like TvZ. Im not sure how you actually make that work technically: So let's say you want to escape, that would mean that manual charge functions as a replacement for right-click. But if charge = right click, then it won't attack enemies when you use it offensively. So charge kinda has to have an a-move type of behaviour which implies that you only can escape if you attack your own units with it. I assumed manual Charge would be able to target any location, not just a unit. So you can C+click (behind bioball) x10 and block off bio retreat. Maybe increase the distance that Zealots can Charge to make this tactic more practical. I'm actually kind of digging the sound of this. Zealots are supposed to be walls, basically. Living forcefields. This would allow them to do that.
yep this sounds really good, you could also use it for escapes, but having the option to actually surround enemies would be awesome.
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I assumed manual Charge would be able to target any location, not just a unit.
Yeh, so then it will be right-click based. Maybe that can work dno. At least I am definitely in favor of experimenting with something here. Zealots as they are right now are really boring.
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I just had a thought, won't supply calldown be way better in LotV? You really don't want too many mules since your bases will mine out way faster anyway and supply calldown actually gives you 100 extra minerals that are not on the map. Of course in the early game you will still need mules to keep up with zerg and protoss, but once you have a healthy worker count, I think we might see a lot more supply calldowns from Terran.
We will see a lot less normal supply depots then I guess, since the supply of CCs increased too.
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On November 29 2014 11:00 Musicus wrote:
I just had a thought, won't supply calldown be way better in LotV? You really don't want too many mules since your bases will mine out way faster anyway and supply calldown actually gives you 100 extra minerals that are not on the map. Of course in the early game you will still need mules to keep up with zerg and protoss, but once you have a healthy worker count, I think we might see a lot more supply calldowns from Terran.
We will see a lot less normal supply depots then I guess, since the supply of CCs increased too.
fyi, supply calldowns are only useful early game.
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On November 29 2014 11:00 Musicus wrote:
I just had a thought, won't supply calldown be way better in LotV? You really don't want too many mules since your bases will mine out way faster anyway and supply calldown actually gives you 100 extra minerals that are not on the map. Of course in the early game you will still need mules to keep up with zerg and protoss, but once you have a healthy worker count, I think we might see a lot more supply calldowns from Terran.
We will see a lot less normal supply depots then I guess, since the supply of CCs increased too.
I think adapting such a playstyle may or may not be as good as what the norm macro style is now, since you're just trading off not mining out faster with potentially crippling supply block. Besides, with Terran lift capability, establishing mining bases is cake; defending them will be the challenge.
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I think that with all these changes, all the work I did updating the general Protoss Strategy pages to HotS meta will be moot. So Silver Liquipedia coins, here I come!
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On November 29 2014 11:33 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 11:00 Musicus wrote:
I just had a thought, won't supply calldown be way better in LotV? You really don't want too many mules since your bases will mine out way faster anyway and supply calldown actually gives you 100 extra minerals that are not on the map. Of course in the early game you will still need mules to keep up with zerg and protoss, but once you have a healthy worker count, I think we might see a lot more supply calldowns from Terran.
We will see a lot less normal supply depots then I guess, since the supply of CCs increased too. fyi, supply calldowns are only useful early game.
So are mules, unless one or more of your bases are destroyed. All three races need more gas than minerals in mid and late game.
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On November 29 2014 11:00 Musicus wrote:
I just had a thought, won't supply calldown be way better in LotV? You really don't want too many mules since your bases will mine out way faster anyway and supply calldown actually gives you 100 extra minerals that are not on the map. Of course in the early game you will still need mules to keep up with zerg and protoss, but once you have a healthy worker count, I think we might see a lot more supply calldowns from Terran.
We will see a lot less normal supply depots then I guess, since the supply of CCs increased too.
Mules will have more drawback by having their flat reduction in patch lifespan, but their spike in income will be relatively more powerful compared to the lifespan of the patch. You always want more resources. There is no advantage to a bird in bush vs a bird in hand.
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Is it this likely the "less ressources per base" change is going to even be in beta ? There seems to be a general agreement this change is bad and the resource collection rate should be worked on rather than the amount of ressources a base contains. Same goes for the initial 12 workers that speeds up everything insanely and could snowball very severely.
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On November 29 2014 11:00 Musicus wrote:
I just had a thought, won't supply calldown be way better in LotV? You really don't want too many mules since your bases will mine out way faster anyway and supply calldown actually gives you 100 extra minerals that are not on the map. Of course in the early game you will still need mules to keep up with zerg and protoss, but once you have a healthy worker count, I think we might see a lot more supply calldowns from Terran.
We will see a lot less normal supply depots then I guess, since the supply of CCs increased too.
I doubt it - you always want to mine as fast as possible. Doesn't make sense that just because there's less available, you wouldn't want to mind it as fast.
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On November 29 2014 23:28 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 11:33 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 29 2014 11:00 Musicus wrote:
I just had a thought, won't supply calldown be way better in LotV? You really don't want too many mules since your bases will mine out way faster anyway and supply calldown actually gives you 100 extra minerals that are not on the map. Of course in the early game you will still need mules to keep up with zerg and protoss, but once you have a healthy worker count, I think we might see a lot more supply calldowns from Terran.
We will see a lot less normal supply depots then I guess, since the supply of CCs increased too. fyi, supply calldowns are only useful early game. So are mules, unless one or more of your bases are destroyed. All three races need more gas than minerals in mid and late game.
If you already have a lot of depots, being aggressive with units is better than calldown at freeing up supply.
If you only have a few depots, supply calldown is when its at its best since you can "mine" 100 minerals in 1-2 seconds (much faster minerals/second than mule)
Mech already uses supply call down over mules because of how much gas it needs instead of gas. Bio play is VERY VERY mineral heavy and never at any point needs gas more that minerals.
Now, if Medivacs were re-costed to be 50 mineral/ 150 gas to make it an official spellcaster, then you'll start seeing bio being more gas heavy than mineral heavy, but in the current meta Mules > Supply unless its mech.
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This expansion feels way too similar. I wanted a lot of new units, a lot of new game mechanics, a lot of different stuff added on and old stuff removed and changed.
I mean its been pretty much the same stuff for over 6 years now and the new expansion doesn't keep it fresh enough. With just 2 new units and some minor changes to existing units, it feels like its the same old game for 6 years now.
I would have liked 4 new units for each race, change up 2-3 more and remove 2-3 from the current units. Add in some new and unique mechanics, increase difficulty on macro mechanics.
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EPT
