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On November 28 2014 22:20 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 18:10 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 28 2014 17:57 maartendq wrote:On November 28 2014 12:25 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 28 2014 07:32 Hider wrote:On November 28 2014 07:24 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 28 2014 07:09 Hider wrote:And production speed wouldn't really be nerfed, Protoss would just be permanently one production cycle of Gateway units behind starting from the moment WG is researched. That's counterbalanced by the Gateway units being better at everything but early game aggression. Yeh but then toss will have a better late game army becasue their maxed out army will be better (more cost efficienet). Balancewise, protoss must therefore be nerfed in the midgame. The reason for that is that the cost efificency of units is not as big a deal as the production speed in the midgame (as it is in the late game). Why would buffing (for instance) the Stalker and nerfing the Colossus result in a "better late game army"? Why do these things not balance one another out in your view? No I was talking about buffing the stalker and nerfing production speed. (aka warptech takes longer time in some form). Nerfing the collosus buf buffing the stalker would strenghten protoss all ins and nerf them late game. P is the only race that has SEVEN T3 units (HT, DT, Archon, Carrier, Monthership, Tempest, Colossus) while both T and Z have two (BC, thor; ultra, BL), which means P has way more options than the other two, at this point any nerf on P's lategame deathball is reasonable. On November 28 2014 09:44 Hider wrote:On November 28 2014 09:12 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 28 2014 08:48 Hider wrote:On November 28 2014 08:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 28 2014 08:21 Hider wrote:On November 28 2014 08:06 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
Of course you would balance around it... what kind of answer is that :S I don't think you understand this discussion at all. When the game design functions in a specific way so it rewards mobiltiy to a extreme, there are only very limited ways you can balance the game. And that has to come through much lower cost efficiency in straight up encounters. I don't know, MMM is pretty efficient in straight up encounters. MMM has lower production speed. I previosuly called the effect of warptech for "added mobility". So when you add up a production mechanicsm that is very mobile + very mobile units, it needs to come through lower cost efficiency. Moreover, MMM relies a lot on mobility and isn't that cost-efficient vs AOE-toss compositions. Now, let's think about the effect of mass stalkers in a more practical way: Are the games where a protoss player masses stalkers actually fun? From my experience, they are the opposite. Stalkers are a giant snowball army and not that fun to play against imo. While MMM play can be fun to drop around with and often is rewarded for splitting army up. Stalkers are not that good in smaller numbers, but often benefits hugely from scale (to create that snowblal effect). Good luck getting fun playstyles out of Protoss (by Terran standards) without very significant changes to the units, or very well designed new units that have crazy retro-synergy. The only playstyle that came close for me was HT/Stalker/Chargelot, and even that was pretty far from ideal. But there are a lot of fun Stalker games, PartinG vs Flash at HSC was a great example. No but you can change Immortal/Collosus (through redesigns) to be more microable. Stalkers? I don't see how really - and I am not sure changing them is desireable. Rather, I would just strenghten their role as a more mobile ranged unit and let the Robo units be about cost efficiency. I agree. Immortal and colossus are boring. Immortal wipes out so much fun in mid game as hardened shield highly discourages T from going mech and Z from mass roaches, and the problems caused by colossus are also discussed in this thread. They really need to be redesigned. My suggestion: - Change immortal into a SIEGE unit with higher movement speed and longer shooting range. When sieged, activate a PERMANENT guardian shield that protects all toss units around the immortal. Remove hardened shield. This will improve immortal's microability as all siege units are highly microable. - Guardian shield removed from sentry since it's given to Immortal. Replace it with a spell that automatically heals surrounding toss units' shield. Other changes in order to encourage new strategies: - Buff psi storm - extra damage on BIO units but less damage on mech units. - Replace ghost's EMP with SC1's lockdown (target unable to move or attack but can take damage); remove Raven's auto turret and replace it with EMP. - Lower build time for templar archive and lower research time for storm. - Give back void ray's passive skill in WoL (it used to allow void ray to deal near double damage after attacking a single unit for a short period of time). Stalker will play a better role as a good mobile ranged unit. Since it is practically P's only ground-to-air unit, any air unit buff is a buff for it because it'll force you to amass stalkers. So Psi Storm kills bio even faster than it already does? Not everyone has master or grandmaster level micro or reaction speed. Psi Storm is already hard enough to deal with for the majority of the players, and TvP late game gives even the most seasoned pros headaches because the combination of templar, archons and colossi is incredibly hard to deal with. I don't know why your idea of diversifying Protoss consists of making already powerful units even more powerful. It's these powerful yet relatively easy-to-use units that make Protoss as boring as it is. That's not the point. I want ghost's lockdown back. With that T would no longer need mass vikings to snipe colossi. Just a seriers of lockdowns could disable all colossi from scorching my bioball, which will push P to have more HTs instead, thus the diversified styles. as much as i hate the colossus design that would remove strategic depth of the game since you would build ghosts vs colossus and then P starts adding more HT you would...build more ghosts isntead of having to decide whether to get vikings or medivacs or more ghosts etc. the colossus just needs to be redesigned. P needs some form of AoE BURST unit that overcome the mass healing power of medivacs (which is the main problem with strenght of bio imo) and isnt 1 hit AoE like the disruptor or storm. imo the best thing would be to make it a real siege unit: slower, has to siege, more burst dmg.
That doesn't sound like a new gateway unit, but hopefully Blizzard would change disruptor into a siege unit.
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There have been a few cool ideas here, these are the ones I like best:
- zealot charge can target the ground (what does speak against that??)
- pylon upgrade for warp, maybe in conjunction with shield recharge or other benefit
- shield recharge from sentry
- new gateway unit at twilight
Just saw MC do an immortal drop, it really did not do much damage for the cost investment and amkount of micro required to not outright lose units or warpprism.
Robo units are really shitty in low numbers and without support, and same goes for gateway units basically.
the disruptor will work better with little support and in low numbers and offers a much higher reward for successful micro, so that's something.
I think a gateway buff is totally valid, some antiair capability is also missing, so maybe a new gateway unit that is costefficient in low numbers and can hit air?
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On November 28 2014 22:20 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 18:10 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 28 2014 17:57 maartendq wrote:On November 28 2014 12:25 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 28 2014 07:32 Hider wrote:On November 28 2014 07:24 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 28 2014 07:09 Hider wrote:And production speed wouldn't really be nerfed, Protoss would just be permanently one production cycle of Gateway units behind starting from the moment WG is researched. That's counterbalanced by the Gateway units being better at everything but early game aggression. Yeh but then toss will have a better late game army becasue their maxed out army will be better (more cost efficienet). Balancewise, protoss must therefore be nerfed in the midgame. The reason for that is that the cost efificency of units is not as big a deal as the production speed in the midgame (as it is in the late game). Why would buffing (for instance) the Stalker and nerfing the Colossus result in a "better late game army"? Why do these things not balance one another out in your view? No I was talking about buffing the stalker and nerfing production speed. (aka warptech takes longer time in some form). Nerfing the collosus buf buffing the stalker would strenghten protoss all ins and nerf them late game. P is the only race that has SEVEN T3 units (HT, DT, Archon, Carrier, Monthership, Tempest, Colossus) while both T and Z have two (BC, thor; ultra, BL), which means P has way more options than the other two, at this point any nerf on P's lategame deathball is reasonable. On November 28 2014 09:44 Hider wrote:On November 28 2014 09:12 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 28 2014 08:48 Hider wrote:On November 28 2014 08:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 28 2014 08:21 Hider wrote:On November 28 2014 08:06 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
Of course you would balance around it... what kind of answer is that :S I don't think you understand this discussion at all. When the game design functions in a specific way so it rewards mobiltiy to a extreme, there are only very limited ways you can balance the game. And that has to come through much lower cost efficiency in straight up encounters. I don't know, MMM is pretty efficient in straight up encounters. MMM has lower production speed. I previosuly called the effect of warptech for "added mobility". So when you add up a production mechanicsm that is very mobile + very mobile units, it needs to come through lower cost efficiency. Moreover, MMM relies a lot on mobility and isn't that cost-efficient vs AOE-toss compositions. Now, let's think about the effect of mass stalkers in a more practical way: Are the games where a protoss player masses stalkers actually fun? From my experience, they are the opposite. Stalkers are a giant snowball army and not that fun to play against imo. While MMM play can be fun to drop around with and often is rewarded for splitting army up. Stalkers are not that good in smaller numbers, but often benefits hugely from scale (to create that snowblal effect). Good luck getting fun playstyles out of Protoss (by Terran standards) without very significant changes to the units, or very well designed new units that have crazy retro-synergy. The only playstyle that came close for me was HT/Stalker/Chargelot, and even that was pretty far from ideal. But there are a lot of fun Stalker games, PartinG vs Flash at HSC was a great example. No but you can change Immortal/Collosus (through redesigns) to be more microable. Stalkers? I don't see how really - and I am not sure changing them is desireable. Rather, I would just strenghten their role as a more mobile ranged unit and let the Robo units be about cost efficiency. I agree. Immortal and colossus are boring. Immortal wipes out so much fun in mid game as hardened shield highly discourages T from going mech and Z from mass roaches, and the problems caused by colossus are also discussed in this thread. They really need to be redesigned. My suggestion: - Change immortal into a SIEGE unit with higher movement speed and longer shooting range. When sieged, activate a PERMANENT guardian shield that protects all toss units around the immortal. Remove hardened shield. This will improve immortal's microability as all siege units are highly microable. - Guardian shield removed from sentry since it's given to Immortal. Replace it with a spell that automatically heals surrounding toss units' shield. Other changes in order to encourage new strategies: - Buff psi storm - extra damage on BIO units but less damage on mech units. - Replace ghost's EMP with SC1's lockdown (target unable to move or attack but can take damage); remove Raven's auto turret and replace it with EMP. - Lower build time for templar archive and lower research time for storm. - Give back void ray's passive skill in WoL (it used to allow void ray to deal near double damage after attacking a single unit for a short period of time). Stalker will play a better role as a good mobile ranged unit. Since it is practically P's only ground-to-air unit, any air unit buff is a buff for it because it'll force you to amass stalkers. So Psi Storm kills bio even faster than it already does? Not everyone has master or grandmaster level micro or reaction speed. Psi Storm is already hard enough to deal with for the majority of the players, and TvP late game gives even the most seasoned pros headaches because the combination of templar, archons and colossi is incredibly hard to deal with. I don't know why your idea of diversifying Protoss consists of making already powerful units even more powerful. It's these powerful yet relatively easy-to-use units that make Protoss as boring as it is. That's not the point. I want ghost's lockdown back. With that T would no longer need mass vikings to snipe colossi. Just a seriers of lockdowns could disable all colossi from scorching my bioball, which will push P to have more HTs instead, thus the diversified styles. as much as i hate the colossus design that would remove strategic depth of the game since you would build ghosts vs colossus and then P starts adding more HT you would...build more ghosts isntead of having to decide whether to get vikings or medivacs or more ghosts etc. the colossus just needs to be redesigned. P needs some form of AoE BURST unit that overcome the mass healing power of medivacs (which is the main problem with strenght of bio imo) and isnt 1 hit AoE like the disruptor or storm. imo the best thing would be to make it a real siege unit: slower, has to siege, more burst dmg.
By the way, I also mentioned in my post that replacing Raven's auto turret with EMP, so if P starts adding more HT, just get some ravens and see if you can EMP them and fire a missile before getting feedbacked to death. Even if raven gets hit by a feedback, it can still detect observer so that will save you a scan. Since raven is science vessel's successor in SC2, giving lockdown back to ghost and EMP to raven are totally logical.
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Something I read elsewhere:
Sentry:
loses Guardian Shield
gains Shield Recharge:
Can heal up to 2 units for 1 mana per 3 shields at 6 shields/second/unit. Autocast. Does not stack.
Immortal:
gains Guardian Shield (shields 3 damage) on top of Baier. Only one ability at a time, both go on cooldown.
What this does:
small groups of gateway units become more efficient.
A way for Protoss to deal with the new Tempest ability (Transfuse/Heal/Repair for Z and T).
makes securing expands easier especially vs speedlings and low numbers of opposing units
immortals finally lose their role as amove anti armor and gains two very specific, powerful spells.
Just a thought 
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After playing the unofficial mod, I must say the game's going more and more into the direction of "professional competition" instead of casual gaming. Most the new stuff introduced are insanely micro heavy(there's no A-move units) and less mineral per base forces you to either expand or all-in at an even faster pace.
It may look nice for players at pro-gamer level but for most of us(diamond or below) even in Hots the amount of APM required is too high. And they are gonna demand even higher APM in Lotv? I don't that's gonna work out man.
IMO DK should give each 3 races an amove unit, and maybe increase the amount of mineral/gas in the main/natural so that it's not instant gg when your 3rd gets sniped or contained?
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skill range: 0-100%.
difficulty in catering to 100% end of the spectrum: high
difficulty in catering to both: higher.
possible solution: use arcade/mod for lower end of spectrum.
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On November 28 2014 23:13 mishimaBeef wrote:
skill range: 0-100%.
difficulty in catering to 100% end of the spectrum: high
difficulty in catering to both: higher.
possible solution: use arcade/mod for lower end of spectrum.
using slower gamespeed for lower leagues could be an option.
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On November 28 2014 22:54 SC2Toastie wrote:
gains Shield Recharge:
Can heal up to 2 units for 1 mana per 3 shields at 6 shields/second/unit. Autocast. Does not stack.
So basically healing? "Fight fire with fire"  Well that may do the job, however I'd rather like some other solution for making Gateway units efficient than copying Terran's MMM.
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On November 28 2014 22:58 HallofPain wrote:
After playing the unofficial mod, I must say the game's going more and more into the direction of "professional competition" instead of casual gaming. Most the new stuff introduced are insanely micro heavy(there's no A-move units) and less mineral per base forces you to either expand or all-in at an even faster pace.
It may look nice for players at pro-gamer level but for most of us(diamond or below) even in Hots the amount of APM required is too high. And they are gonna demand even higher APM in Lotv? I don't that's gonna work out man.
IMO DK should give each 3 races an amove unit, and maybe increase the amount of mineral/gas in the main/natural so that it's not instant gg when your 3rd gets sniped or contained?
You have to recognise there is a lot of stuff you CAN do to squeeze maximal efficiency out of your units, but you don't HAVE to do it to remain competitive with players of your own level.
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On November 28 2014 23:28 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 22:54 SC2Toastie wrote:
gains Shield Recharge:
Can heal up to 2 units for 1 mana per 3 shields at 6 shields/second/unit. Autocast. Does not stack.
So basically healing? "Fight fire with fire" Well that may do the job, however I'd rather like some other solution for making Gateway units efficient than copying Terran's MMM.
Shield Battery + Medic worked before..?
important part of this is that it is efficient enough to allow for continuous fighting, but heals P units up for skirmishing a tad faster.
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On November 28 2014 23:41 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 23:28 egrimm wrote:On November 28 2014 22:54 SC2Toastie wrote:
gains Shield Recharge:
Can heal up to 2 units for 1 mana per 3 shields at 6 shields/second/unit. Autocast. Does not stack.
So basically healing? "Fight fire with fire" Well that may do the job, however I'd rather like some other solution for making Gateway units efficient than copying Terran's MMM. Shield Battery + Medic worked before..? important part of this is that it is efficient enough to allow for continuous fighting, but heals P units up for skirmishing a tad faster.
Well if I understood correctly spell would recharge shields for mana, no? So it works as heal spell from medivac/medic? Correct me if I am wrong.
I understand that it might help Gateway units fight Bio + Medivac and actually probably would because It would be: Bio + Medivac healing vs Gateway units + sentry recharging.
What I do not like about that solution is that the mechanic is too similar to already existing in form of MMM.
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I think one of the design challenges, to make a strictly gateway support unit, is ensuring it has low synergy with robotics units and high synergy with gateway units.
I think perhaps an upgrade at twilight to make sentries detectors would also promote gateway based play into the mid-late game.
Then again maybe Protoss are designed to use robotics units, and I am pretty excited to see the disruptor in action. 1 Disruptor explosion is probably worth more than 2-4 colossus swipes (which it typically gets off before dying if you cannot hold the front line of battle).
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On November 28 2014 22:58 HallofPain wrote:
After playing the unofficial mod, I must say the game's going more and more into the direction of "professional competition" instead of casual gaming. Most the new stuff introduced are insanely micro heavy(there's no A-move units) and less mineral per base forces you to either expand or all-in at an even faster pace.
It may look nice for players at pro-gamer level but for most of us(diamond or below) even in Hots the amount of APM required is too high. And they are gonna demand even higher APM in Lotv? I don't that's gonna work out man.
IMO DK should give each 3 races an amove unit, and maybe increase the amount of mineral/gas in the main/natural so that it's not instant gg when your 3rd gets sniped or contained?
Exactly, but that much was obvious from the patches during WoL already: nerf everything that's even slightly interesting and keep the balanced units. Units die too fast and there are way too many spellcasters.
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Gateway units might be reworked a bit for LoTV and probably will. However I am not sure if gateway units should be similar to M&M in the way they work and efficiency. Marines and Marauders work great thanks to medivacs, how heal them and help move them around. I think that Protoss needs more ways to be able to move around the map, however not particularly in a "Terran way" with medivacs but maybe with smth like arbiter recall ? Right now recall is only one msc and is used rather for escape of big o' deathball. If recall would be on some other unit or even nexus with smaller radius to prevent MASS recall then gateway units could be used more freely.
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On November 28 2014 22:54 SC2Toastie wrote:
Something I read elsewhere:
Sentry:
loses Guardian Shield
gains Shield Recharge:
Can heal up to 2 units for 1 mana per 3 shields at 6 shields/second/unit. Autocast. Does not stack.
The problem, as you've personally identified before, is that Protoss doesn't really need more autocast. This would just make A+move Zealots (with Sentries) stronger, and nobody needs that.
On November 28 2014 18:04 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 17:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 28 2014 17:55 Lunareste wrote:On November 28 2014 17:50 Phaenoman wrote:
OK, so a lot of ppl seem to want gateway units to be stronger, but which of those units need to be buffed? The Zealot? It already gets speed and Charge and is really tanky. The Sentry? It's a caster that with the disliked FF ability. Remove it or change it somehow. The Templars? I think they have their roles and abilities. The only unit that needs tweaks is the Stalker. Blink is good, but I think it should get some kind of basic stat buffs in some way, may it be in general or as an upgrade. In PvT I believe the Stalkers are getting a "buff" by the Marauder shot being split into two, thus armor applying twice. I'm not sure that FF will be as highly disliked now that there is direct counterplay to it, and micro to use/break the FF has been introduced. Personally I think Zealots are too tanky, and when they have charge they are too cost efficient when warped into an enemy base; they are nearly guaranteed to do damage. This will probably change though, if they do take 200% damage during warp and warp duration is increased. My problem with chargelots is they deal excellent damage with zero attention paid, but if the opponent micros against them, there's nothing additionally you can do.a move, set and forget. In some situations there is nothing u can do. In some situations there is nothing u have to do. That's the current state. But that's the issue with most of the melee units, isn't it?
It is difficult, that's why the unit I suggested was all about creating synergy with Gateway units. The Zealot itself can then be made weaker, but with proper micro from its synergy creating microable buddy, the combination becomes stronger. A+move = worse results. ABCDEF+move = better results.
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I wonder if starcraft would benefit from dual tech paths?
One example: fleet beacon opens high templar and storm is researchable here as well... or... fleet beacon unlocks templar archives, you get the idea though.
Or... what if they moved warp prism speed upgrade to twilight council?
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ABCDEF+move = better results.
Not really. Adding in extra clicks just for the sole purpose of extra clicks is pointless. Rather, the most interesting forms of micro is how you use the abilities/move your own units in reaction to what your enemy is doing. Just going into an engagement and then pressing a button doesn't excite any viewers nor is it fun as a player.
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On November 29 2014 03:59 Hider wrote:Not really. Adding in extra clicks just for the sole purpose of extra clicks is pointless. Rather, the most interesting forms of micro is how you use the abilities/move your own units in reaction to what your enemy is doing. Just going into an engagement and then pressing a button doesn't excite any viewers nor is it fun as a player.
I could have meant one of two things by my vague and obviously metaphorical "ABCDEF+move" statement, the dumb thing that you thought I meant, and the less dumb thing that you said.
Why would you assume I meant the dumb thing?
I did not mean the dumb thing.
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Saw an earlier post mention the shield battery. Wouldn't mind bringing that building back for PvP solution and an anti-allin solution if you scout something but don't have a forge. Shield battery on immortal might be fairly insane though (less as much in LOTV than the HOTS immortal though).
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On November 29 2014 04:05 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 03:59 Hider wrote:ABCDEF+move = better results. Not really. Adding in extra clicks just for the sole purpose of extra clicks is pointless. Rather, the most interesting forms of micro is how you use the abilities/move your own units in reaction to what your enemy is doing. Just going into an engagement and then pressing a button doesn't excite any viewers nor is it fun as a player. I could have meant one of two things by my vague and obviously metaphorical "ABCDEF+move" statement, the dumb thing that you thought I meant, and the less dumb thing that you said. Why would you assume I meant the dumb thing? I did not mean the dumb thing.
Because I previosuly experiemnted with tweaking charge, and too a large extent, I think it just ends up feeling just extra spams just for the purpose of extra spams. With such a massable unit, it's very hard to make manual charge feel like an interesting ability. Perhaps it's doable with the right tweaks though.
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EPT
