In a game like StarCraft II, where the metagame evolves as quickly as new champions are born, finding any kind of stability is rare. The "Best Player in the World" is someone different every month or two. Strategies come and go as players adapt or patches pluck them out. The same goes for their success, which is often indebted to metagame shifts or simple cases of opponents analyzing and exploiting one's strengths and weaknesses. Nevermind the game's balance which only further complicates things.
In this case though, do mind it. The game's balance was arguably the biggest factor responsible for creating a scarce period of stability in 2014. It wasn't one player or a team dominating the scene this time - it was an entire race. Of the first twelve Premier Events of the year ten were won by a protoss - in fact by nine different ones. Zest, MC, herO, San, sOs, HerO, Classic, StarDust and Pigbaby strung together a continuous line of wins for the protoss race. It was a dominant, stable reign established and upheld by the entire protoss race.
Because not only did protoss end up winning tournaments, they also flooded the GSL in a way that was reminiscent of only the GomTvT era and the Brood Lord/Infestor nightmare. Protoss was the only race that hadn't yet had a grand period of power in SC2 up to that point. That was at times used as an argument by protoss apologists who lulled themselves into a semi-false sense of fairness while soaking in their race's success. They were not entirely wrong. The idea that each race had their time in the spotlight did, in a way, make up for past injustice. A perversely fair system considering the entirely unfair state of balance it relied on.
The Winning Side
Through a number of patches and map rotation, the metagame began swinging back out of favor of Aiur and the regime was shattered. That didn't mean the end for all protoss hope of course. Zest is still running wild. All time greats like MC and HerO rose to fame when times looked truly bleak and could come roaring back at any point in the future. StarDust, Pigbaby and San are all performing consistently in their respective WCS regions., while herO and sOs are always counted among the very best players. But there's someone else, someone who doesn't quite fit any of these categories.
"I will never allow myself to be satisfied with just one championship."
SKT_Classic is neither performing as well as most of them, nor does he have any past achievements to draw credit from. Yes, he was a decently consistent performer for STX and SKT in Proleague, but nobody had ever envisioned him winning the most prestigious tournament in the world. And his doubters didn't need to wait long for him to slip, as Classic's GSL title defense ended as soon as it began, with a disastrous last place finish in the first group of the new season, initiated by a loss against Effort, a player notorious for his poor ZvP. He then heartbreakingly lost the final map of the Proleague season to a proxy 2rax. Despite his triumph, on a team with Rain and Parting, he wasn't even their protoss ace. All this after he switched from terran to protoss and started doing well? That sounds more like a rant someone on reddit would come up with than the story of a GSL champion.
Yellow dots: Classic's switch to protoss and his GSL win. Credit to Aligulac.
Of course we were going to remember him this way, right? He should never have even won that season. The winner of Maru vs Soulkey, widely considered the best terran and zerg in the world respectively, was supposed to have a free pass into the finals where they would inevitably face the best protoss in the world, Zest. So what if Classic had beaten Hydra, PartinG, soO and ParalyzE and made it to the semifinals? Even if he were to miraculously overcome the winner of Maru vs Soulkey, the shadow of a two time consecutive GSL finalist was still lurking on the other side of the bracket. Classic was going to be stopped eventually. He was nothing extraordinary after all. A good, solid protoss on SKT, sure. But a GSL champion? No way. The rest is history.
Classic had his breakout moment, a GSL championship, but it came at the worst possible moment. Not because it wasn't a strong run against capable opposition, not because he looked like a weaker player fluking a run through trickery and cheese, as others have done before him. He was denied any hype and belief in his abilities by the same thing that many attribute his big win to - the status quo of protoss dominance.
Despite battling his way through opponents of all races while showcasing the full spectrum of protoss builds, the community inevitably regarded him as just another protoss champion. We were too busy talking about how to nerf blink all ins, the mothership core, changing maps, etc. to even be bothered by yet another protoss fluking an undeserved win that never would have happened without his race doing half the job for him. Classic's results dropped rapidly as the protoss race as a whole started to cool down. They say that in a war, the winning side decides what's right and what's wrong. The winning side becomes Justice itself, and Classic just happened to be part of the winning side.
But is that all there is to him? Is he just going to be another addition to the line of forgotten champions? Seed won a GSL and disappeared, as did Sniper. At least you could argue that they were the legitimately best players during their victorious seasons, despite the circumstances they won their title in. Even after eventually being unable to follow up on them, many still recognize their wins as deserved at the time. Few would even attempt to make that claim for Classic. So what is it that keeps him from becoming an even less successful version of those two?
The answer to that is simple – Blizzcon. This is his chance to make a statement, to confirm that his achievement was not a one time thing. A huge opportunity that Seed and Sniper didn't grab and perhaps didn't have. If Classic wins Blizzcon or at least has a good showing, he will be remembered as someone who not only won a GSL in 2014, but also performed well at the biggest event of the year.
This is where Classic can prove them all wrong. He can show that his win, while poorly timed, was not an aberration caused by his race's superiority, but a testimony to his skill, preparation and hard work. If it really is true that the winning side decides Justice, then that is how he will get his. Blizzcon is his trial, Classic is the accused and the world is his jury. This is where he can rid himself of all the mockery and justify his glory. And all he has to do is be the one who wins.
Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
I like how classic was portrayed as the man who was in the right place at the wrong time. He was a very good player when he won GSL and his falling out was just as poorly timed as his win.
Everyone seems to say that Sniper won due to his race and that he's had no results since etc etc so how can you argue that Sniper was the best during his season?
On October 17 2014 06:07 Varroth wrote: Everyone seems to say that Sniper won due to his race and that he's had no results since etc etc so how can you argue that Sniper was the best during his season?
If he wasn't the best, he was at the least top 3. People underrate him because he was Zerg at the height of BL/infestor's power and was a player that neither had much charisma nor an established fanbase, but he was easily one of the best in the world when he won. He didn't abuse BL/infestor as much as the time period would indicate, either, he simply won fair and square in a variety of ways.
On October 17 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote: Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
This was pretty cool. My thoughts exactly on Classic. I hope that he's able to show his talents. Being a former Terran and winning his GSL during the "Protoss OP" era have really (unfairly) undermined his achievement.
On October 17 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote: Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
Life, because you're too eager to tell us how he'll pull the upset against Zest
On October 17 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote: Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
On October 17 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote: Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
Life, because you're too eager to tell us how he'll pull the upset against Zest
On October 17 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote: Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
Life, because you're too eager to tell us how he'll pull the upset against Zest
Life will be the last one. Zealously wants to keep the surprise for the end and he wants as much time as he needs to prove us that Life will win blizcon without droping a single game as the true bonjwa he is.
On October 17 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote: Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
Life, because you're too eager to tell us how he'll pull the upset against Zest
On October 17 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote: Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
Life, because you're too eager to tell us how he'll pull the upset against Zest
Blizzcon is his trial, Classic is the accused and the world is his jury. This is where he can rid himself of all the mockery and justify his glory. And all he has to do is be the one who wins.
On October 17 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote: Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
Life, because you're too eager to tell us how he'll pull the upset against Zest
Pretty sure Classic stands no chance. Maybe he'll get to Ro8, but I don't see him beating herO, who will obviously beat MC. And even then, I still find it unlikely he'll beat Polt.
On another note, the bottom half of the bracket is quite a bit tougher than the top half...
On October 17 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote: Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
Life, because you're too eager to tell us how he'll pull the upset against Zest
I hope Classic shows good form at blizzcon. It was hard to watch some of the players that got there last year but didn't have the form anymore to really be competitive
all i remember sniper is when ryung screamed imba imba imba during the game. sniper in the follow up interview said it was immature whining. well, gglord/winfestor were nerfed, and sniper disappeared into irrelevance immediately afterward. completely vindicating ryung.
On October 17 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote: Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
I missed the shit out of these writeups.... wow. They were all so well done last year, and if this article is any indicator, it looks like that trend will only continue.
If Classic wins this years Blizzcon I will be sad.
I actually believe he has the skill to do it, he's actually pretty solid, but fuck man, that would just be so sad considering how many fan favorites we have to win this tournament.
On October 17 2014 08:11 Shinespark wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't care in the slightest about Classic?
I not that interested in him either. The only player I'm less interested in is Jjakji. However, I'm looking forward to his games vs polt. The series they played at IEM earlier this year was very entertaining.
On October 17 2014 08:11 Shinespark wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't care in the slightest about Classic?
my level of interest for players is in three tiers Very interested (MMA, Polt, INnoVation, Zest, TaeJa, soO) Mildly interested (San, MC, herO, Bomber, HyuN) Meh (Life, Classic, StarDust. jjakji, Jaedong)
EDIT; I also absolutely love the theme of this years blizzcon articles! Very creative.
On October 17 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote: Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
Jaedong! as he also has lot to prove more so than anyone else in this tournament.
On October 17 2014 06:00 Zealously wrote: Please note that the cards at the bottom do not represent the order in which the articles will be published. Let the "guess the next article"-game begin!
Jaedong! as he also has lot to prove more so than anyone else in this tournament.
On October 17 2014 06:07 Varroth wrote: Everyone seems to say that Sniper won due to his race and that he's had no results since etc etc so how can you argue that Sniper was the best during his season?
If he wasn't the best, he was at the least top 3. People underrate him because he was Zerg at the height of BL/infestor's power and was a player that neither had much charisma nor an established fanbase, but he was easily one of the best in the world when he won. He didn't abuse BL/infestor as much as the time period would indicate, either, he simply won fair and square in a variety of ways.
I think I also remember listening to pros on a talk show on the subject of how the winners of major tournaments were also ranked very high on the grand master ladder. I think it was mentioned that sniper was like rank 1 on the KR GM ladder at the time of his GSL win.
I love the setup for linking to all of the other articles that you have at the bottom of this one. Really nice and should become a standard for similar series!
On October 17 2014 08:05 ZAiNs wrote: This doesn't look like Hyun at all o_o.
Yeah, kind of a bad and seemingly really old (or so new I don't even know?) photo of him
I think Classic deserves the credit for his results, winning Blizzcon or not. He was and still is a very good player, I can totally see him reaching the Ro4.
So gogo Classic! I hope you lose in the finals to Zest ^.^
Sick writeup. My doubt of Classic never really took the race's strength into account, altho that does make sense to think about it that way in context looking back. I just remember his Round of 32 games against Life and Hydra and thinking to myself, "If this guy makes it to the round of 16, or even the playoffs by some chance, I'll be damned". He looked so unimpressive and flawed that I was really surprised to see him win the GSL finals the day after I leave for camp. Seeing the results not too much later that EffOrt and Shine knocked him out felt real and gave me comfort, that maybe I was right that his win felt... off. Not because of race necessarily, but it just felt weird that he, of everybody in Code S that season, won.
I have never been convinced by Classic as a player. I couldn't believe that he won that GSL and was vindicated when he bombed out the season after. He did perform unexpectedly well though in the KeSPA Cup. So I don't quite know how I feel about his skill now. I guess we will see.
I feel like this series of articles shouldn't have started out with Classic's story. Not that I disagree with anything said in the article, but it's just not a really interesting story.
On October 17 2014 11:19 Lemonayd wrote: I feel like this series of articles shouldn't have started out with Classic's story. Not that I disagree with anything said in the article, but it's just not a really interesting story.
Now we can look forward to a more interesting one tomorrow!
I'm actually very interested to see how well Classic does. His path to blizzcon has been an interesting one, and his play has shown some absolutely inspiring thought in it.
On October 17 2014 12:10 Lemonayd wrote: Just noticed that, only four players (two teams) have more than one person qualified for Blizzcon. The spread on teams is pretty nice!
Dude, there are 5 players from two teams, not 4, Innovation, soO and Classic for SKT, Jjakji and Stardust for MyInsanity. Or you meant something else and i just misunderstood
That was a lot of crying in the article... Justice is the true goal of Classic here. Its not about winning or losing the throphy, its about proving that he is worthy of the tittle of GSL champion. Of course he won with his own hands, but he was not aknowledged for it. Classic will either make justice with his hands with a good run at Blizzcon, or lose on the first round to be judged as a patchtoss forever. In Starcraft 2, the losing side becomes justice, for the gods of blizzard will descend upon imbalance and the nerf hammer will strike down upon the koprulu sector. Champions will lose their favour, and either fall or ascend to the eternal glory.
Damn, this author took a steaming dump on Classic,a player who IMO has shown some really brilliant late game play against zerg and Terran. What will the write ups be like for the players who don't belong at a tournament like this like MC and Polt?
People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote: People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
I agree with you, Classic is the type of player to study his opponents carefully and often incorporates aggressive early builds, something polt struggles with at times.
Is it possible to lose respect for winning a GSL? Prior to his championship, Classic was acknowledge as a really good player in hipster circles, sporting one of the best records in all of Proleague since his race switch to Protoss. And yet...GSL's aren't supposed to be won by really good players; they're supposed to be won by the Greats... The Code S trophy truly is a heavy weight. The way it played out seems just a bit tragic for then-rising Classic.
On October 17 2014 14:15 The_Darkness wrote: Damn, this author took a steaming dump on Classic,a player who IMO has shown some really brilliant late game play against zerg and Terran. What will the write ups be like for the players who don't belong at a tournament like this like MC and Polt?
With regard to the major acrana theme: I recommend adding a link to each card's wiki page to the articles, so that one can easily get an overview of what this card stands for. Otherwise the whole theme thing is only for those already familiar with the matter.
Classic is not the first champion who fell on the next Ro32 season, IM_Mvp did it too, so it's not a big deal. His group was not so easy to win. I knew somehow that Classic could become a champ, watching his play in Proleague and Code S, I liked his army construction. Let's not forget that he defeaded players like soO twice in Season 2, so it's pretty well deserved title. For Blizzcon I try to be realist - his chances are not good. But always there's a big surprice on such final tounaments every year, nice surprices, just like sOs nobody expected last year. May be it's Classic's turn to be one of the finalists at least, who knows? Wish him luck!
I find this article well-written in form but incredibly unfair with Classic. I don't actually like this player and care about him that much but put in a nutshell it is basically saying that he is a patchtoss and that his victory has not much to do with his skill at the time he won. Sure why not if the author thinks so. But adding behind that Seed and Sniper were not, come on don't kid yourself, they too disappeared off the radar right after their win.
Moreover at least Classic won with a lot of variety in his play, unlike Seed or Sniper who won on the back of a lot of 4gate/BL infestor. This is a blatant case of double standard.
It's never stated in the article that Classic is a patchtoss or anything similar though. Quite the opposite in fact. It says that the majority of the community views him like that (not that I do!) and I stand by that. If anything, the message of the article is that his reputation isn't doing him justice because of the protoss reign back when he won, even though his play was highly impressive. The solution it offers is that he can prove everybody wrong by just doing well at Blizzcon.
On October 17 2014 11:19 Lemonayd wrote: I feel like this series of articles shouldn't have started out with Classic's story. Not that I disagree with anything said in the article, but it's just not a really interesting story.
Probably the exact reason why they started with it right there: less interesting stories first to make sure they get read, more interesting to follow so people get more and more excited (and keep reading). Not many would read Classic's if he were last.
On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote: People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
I agree with everything except I'm pretty sure MC made his name by winning back to back GSLs a long time ago and then going on a huge winning spree that netted him half a million in earnings. But he made it to blizzcon by beating euros, though some of them are decent players. Somehow I feel like you can never count MC out but Classic has a better shot at winning this. Great article. I never regarded Classic's triumph as a fluke but I don't follow things too closely nowadays so this was educational.
Amazing article! This kind of content makes me even more hyped for Blizzcon. Can't wait for the other ones, especially players like Jaedong and INnoVation.
On October 17 2014 20:58 ejozl wrote: Next will be Jjakji or mb San. Starting from the bottom of the hype train.
I think so too. And I wonder what cards each players are going to get. I'd say The Chariot for INnoVation, The Hermit for soO and the Emperor for Zest. No idea for the others though
Serious question: is it just me or the libra over Classic's photo shifted? Yesterday I recall the weights to be even, am I hallucinating?
This said, awesome idea and graphics. Not totally a fan of the text this time since it looks more tongue in cheek criticism than actual praises, but I guess Classic's situation (just as Sniper and other champions from the past) required it...
On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote: People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote: People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
MC made his name by taking 2 GSL titles ...
Obviously I meant in recent times--i.e., what they did to earn the name he has NOW. The last of MC's GSL titles, as legitimate as they were, was three and a half years ago. I guess you could also say that San "made his name" by having Tastosis constantly make fun of him in early 2011 after he accidentally blocked his own natural with cannons.
On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote: People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
MC made his name by taking 2 GSL titles ...
Obviously I meant in recent times--i.e., what they did to earn the name he has NOW. The last of MC's GSL titles, as legitimate as they were, was three and a half years ago. I guess you could also say that San "made his name" by having Tastosis constantly make fun of him in early 2011 after he accidentally blocked his own natural with cannons.
By that logic Polt didn't do anything to earn his name but beat up some Americans and the occasional wandering Chinese.
On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote: People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
MC made his name by taking 2 GSL titles ...
Obviously I meant in recent times--i.e., what they did to earn the name he has NOW. The last of MC's GSL titles, as legitimate as they were, was three and a half years ago. I guess you could also say that San "made his name" by having Tastosis constantly make fun of him in early 2011 after he accidentally blocked his own natural with cannons.
By that logic Polt didn't do anything to earn his name but beat up some Americans and the occasional wandering Chinese.
It's true for some more than others. For example, since HotS came out, Polt's match winrate against only Koreans and only in offline games (the setting for the top premier tournaments) is a solid 55.5%. MC's winrate under those same standards is 40.5%. So yeah, ever since HotS came out, MC loses to Koreans much more often than he beats them.
But the point of my post is not to hate on MC. If you read what I was posting about I was arguing against the article's and many posters' assumptions that unless Classic wins Blizzcon, he's just another "patchtoss" and doesn't deserve respect as a top player. I still stand by my statement that over the course of 2014, except for Zest, there's no Protoss you can point to and say "he's clearly played better in 2014 than Classic."
On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote: People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
MC made his name by taking 2 GSL titles ...
Obviously I meant in recent times--i.e., what they did to earn the name he has NOW. The last of MC's GSL titles, as legitimate as they were, was three and a half years ago. I guess you could also say that San "made his name" by having Tastosis constantly make fun of him in early 2011 after he accidentally blocked his own natural with cannons.
By that logic Polt didn't do anything to earn his name but beat up some Americans and the occasional wandering Chinese.
It's true for some more than others. For example, since HotS came out, Polt's match winrate against only Koreans and only in offline games (the setting for the top premier tournaments) is a solid 55.5%. MC's winrate under those same standards is 40.5%. So yeah, ever since HotS came out, MC loses to Koreans much more often than he beats them.
But the point of my post is not to hate on MC. If you read what I was posting about I was arguing against the article's and many posters' assumptions that unless Classic wins Blizzcon, he's just another "patchtoss" and doesn't deserve respect as a top player. I still stand by my statement that over the course of 2014, except for Zest, there's no Protoss you can point to and say "he's clearly played better in 2014 than Classic."
I actually found my own winrates quoted above quite interesting, so I looked up every Blizzcon player's records in HotS against Koreans in offline matches (on Aligulac, of course):
On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote: People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
MC made his name by taking 2 GSL titles ...
Obviously I meant in recent times--i.e., what they did to earn the name he has NOW. The last of MC's GSL titles, as legitimate as they were, was three and a half years ago. I guess you could also say that San "made his name" by having Tastosis constantly make fun of him in early 2011 after he accidentally blocked his own natural with cannons.
By that logic Polt didn't do anything to earn his name but beat up some Americans and the occasional wandering Chinese.
It's true for some more than others. For example, since HotS came out, Polt's match winrate against only Koreans and only in offline games (the setting for the top premier tournaments) is a solid 55.5%. MC's winrate under those same standards is 40.5%. So yeah, ever since HotS came out, MC loses to Koreans much more often than he beats them.
But the point of my post is not to hate on MC. If you read what I was posting about I was arguing against the article's and many posters' assumptions that unless Classic wins Blizzcon, he's just another "patchtoss" and doesn't deserve respect as a top player. I still stand by my statement that over the course of 2014, except for Zest, there's no Protoss you can point to and say "he's clearly played better in 2014 than Classic."
I actually found my own winrates quoted above quite interesting, so I looked up every Blizzcon player's records in HotS against Koreans in offline matches (on Aligulac, of course):
You're putting Classic on the same tier as Rain in 2014? I wouldn't even put Classic on the same tier as PartinG, my third favorite P this year.
S1, Classic got ro16, PartinG got ro8 (lost to soO), Rain got ro4 (lost to Zest). S2, Classic won the finals, PartinG got ro16 (lost to Classic and soO), Rain got ro16. S3, Classic got ro32 (last place against Effort and Shine), PartinG got ro16 (lost to Innovation), Rain got ro8.
That's an average of ro16 for Classic, 13.3 for PartinG, and 9.3 for Rain. If that's not enough, most of Classic's success comes from the Code S he won, whereas the others show consistency, and, in PartinG's case, having two of his three runs stopped by that GSL's winners and the third stopped by the runner up means he actually did worse than he should have done. On top of that, PartinG got second (behind Zest) at GSL GC, while Classic was struggling to string wins together over Polt at Cologne, despite how well Blink dominance suited his aggressive playstyle. And in Proleague Rain was consistently picked as ace over Classic.
Classic isn't even in the running for being in the running for best P in Korea for me. I'd probably take herO over him, and I don't even like herO.
On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote: People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
MC made his name by taking 2 GSL titles ...
Obviously I meant in recent times--i.e., what they did to earn the name he has NOW. The last of MC's GSL titles, as legitimate as they were, was three and a half years ago. I guess you could also say that San "made his name" by having Tastosis constantly make fun of him in early 2011 after he accidentally blocked his own natural with cannons.
By that logic Polt didn't do anything to earn his name but beat up some Americans and the occasional wandering Chinese.
It's true for some more than others. For example, since HotS came out, Polt's match winrate against only Koreans and only in offline games (the setting for the top premier tournaments) is a solid 55.5%. MC's winrate under those same standards is 40.5%. So yeah, ever since HotS came out, MC loses to Koreans much more often than he beats them.
But the point of my post is not to hate on MC. If you read what I was posting about I was arguing against the article's and many posters' assumptions that unless Classic wins Blizzcon, he's just another "patchtoss" and doesn't deserve respect as a top player. I still stand by my statement that over the course of 2014, except for Zest, there's no Protoss you can point to and say "he's clearly played better in 2014 than Classic."
I actually found my own winrates quoted above quite interesting, so I looked up every Blizzcon player's records in HotS against Koreans in offline matches (on Aligulac, of course):
You're putting Classic on the same tier as Rain in 2014? I wouldn't even put Classic on the same tier as PartinG, my third favorite P this year.
S1, Classic got ro16, PartinG got ro8 (lost to soO), Rain got ro4 (lost to Zest). S2, Classic won the finals, PartinG got ro16 (lost to Classic and soO), Rain got ro16. S3, Classic got ro32 (last place against Effort and Shine), PartinG got ro16 (lost to Innovation), Rain got ro8. Mp
That's an average of ro16 for Classic, 13.3 for PartinG, and 9.3 for Rain. If that's not enough, most of Classic's success comes from the Code S he won, whereas the others show consistency, and, in PartinG's case, having two of his three runs stopped by that GSL's winners and the third stopped by the runner up means he actually did worse than he should have done. On top of that, PartinG got second (behind Zest) at GSL GC, while Classic was struggling to string wins together over Polt at Cologne, despite how well Blink dominance suited his aggressive playstyle. And in Proleague Rain was consistently picked as ace over Classic.
Classic isn't even in the running for being in the running for best P in Korea for me. I'd probably take herO over him, and I don't even like herO.
You can't just add up the numbers in rounds and average them. That's not indicative of anything--by that logic finishing in ro16 twice is as impressive as a ro32 finish followed by a championship. That makes no sense.
I think Zest is clearly the best Protoss in the world in 2014. After that I have a very hard time picking between herO, Rain, sOs, PartinG and Classic. Rain's overall career has certainly been more impressive than Classic's but his 2014? Personally I don't think there is a great argument for that.
On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote: People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
MC made his name by taking 2 GSL titles ...
Obviously I meant in recent times--i.e., what they did to earn the name he has NOW. The last of MC's GSL titles, as legitimate as they were, was three and a half years ago. I guess you could also say that San "made his name" by having Tastosis constantly make fun of him in early 2011 after he accidentally blocked his own natural with cannons.
By that logic Polt didn't do anything to earn his name but beat up some Americans and the occasional wandering Chinese.
It's true for some more than others. For example, since HotS came out, Polt's match winrate against only Koreans and only in offline games (the setting for the top premier tournaments) is a solid 55.5%. MC's winrate under those same standards is 40.5%. So yeah, ever since HotS came out, MC loses to Koreans much more often than he beats them.
But the point of my post is not to hate on MC. If you read what I was posting about I was arguing against the article's and many posters' assumptions that unless Classic wins Blizzcon, he's just another "patchtoss" and doesn't deserve respect as a top player. I still stand by my statement that over the course of 2014, except for Zest, there's no Protoss you can point to and say "he's clearly played better in 2014 than Classic."
I actually found my own winrates quoted above quite interesting, so I looked up every Blizzcon player's records in HotS against Koreans in offline matches (on Aligulac, of course):
You're putting Classic on the same tier as Rain in 2014? I wouldn't even put Classic on the same tier as PartinG, my third favorite P this year.
S1, Classic got ro16, PartinG got ro8 (lost to soO), Rain got ro4 (lost to Zest). S2, Classic won the finals, PartinG got ro16 (lost to Classic and soO), Rain got ro16. S3, Classic got ro32 (last place against Effort and Shine), PartinG got ro16 (lost to Innovation), Rain got ro8. Mp
That's an average of ro16 for Classic, 13.3 for PartinG, and 9.3 for Rain. If that's not enough, most of Classic's success comes from the Code S he won, whereas the others show consistency, and, in PartinG's case, having two of his three runs stopped by that GSL's winners and the third stopped by the runner up means he actually did worse than he should have done. On top of that, PartinG got second (behind Zest) at GSL GC, while Classic was struggling to string wins together over Polt at Cologne, despite how well Blink dominance suited his aggressive playstyle. And in Proleague Rain was consistently picked as ace over Classic.
Classic isn't even in the running for being in the running for best P in Korea for me. I'd probably take herO over him, and I don't even like herO.
You can't just add up the numbers in rounds and average them. That's not indicative of anything--by that logic finishing in ro16 twice is as impressive as a ro32 finish followed by a championship. That makes no sense.
Which is exactly why I went on to explain what makes PartinG's 13.6 FAR more impressive than Classic's 16.
I think Zest is clearly the best Protoss in the world in 2014. After that I have a very hard time picking between herO, Rain, sOs, PartinG and Classic. Rain's overall career has certainly been more impressive than Classic's but his 2014? Personally I don't think there is a great argument for that.
You're being silly if you think that the limited accomplishments of an aggressive Protoss like Classic during an era that heavily favored Protoss aggression are in any way comparable to the greater accomplishments of Rain, who as a defensive Protoss actually DID NOT BENEFIT from the imbalanced state of the game in 2014. A lot of people gave him flak for calling Terran "broodlord/infestor," but from his perspective, he was absolutely right. Protoss only had a huge edge if they were willing to exploit the unpredictability of the race to its highest potential, and Rain isn't the kind of player to do that. In a lesser player, we might call that a weakness. But the fact that his results in Code S and Proleague were so much better than Classic's despite of this handicap is a monumental testament to his skill and consistency.
On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote: People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
MC made his name by taking 2 GSL titles ...
Obviously I meant in recent times--i.e., what they did to earn the name he has NOW. The last of MC's GSL titles, as legitimate as they were, was three and a half years ago. I guess you could also say that San "made his name" by having Tastosis constantly make fun of him in early 2011 after he accidentally blocked his own natural with cannons.
By that logic Polt didn't do anything to earn his name but beat up some Americans and the occasional wandering Chinese.
It's true for some more than others. For example, since HotS came out, Polt's match winrate against only Koreans and only in offline games (the setting for the top premier tournaments) is a solid 55.5%. MC's winrate under those same standards is 40.5%. So yeah, ever since HotS came out, MC loses to Koreans much more often than he beats them.
But the point of my post is not to hate on MC. If you read what I was posting about I was arguing against the article's and many posters' assumptions that unless Classic wins Blizzcon, he's just another "patchtoss" and doesn't deserve respect as a top player. I still stand by my statement that over the course of 2014, except for Zest, there's no Protoss you can point to and say "he's clearly played better in 2014 than Classic."
I actually found my own winrates quoted above quite interesting, so I looked up every Blizzcon player's records in HotS against Koreans in offline matches (on Aligulac, of course):
Were these winrates based on games againsts "Korean" Koreans (that is, Koreans who were on KESPA teams at the time of the switch) or does it include all Koreans? the broader group of Koreans?
On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote: People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic.
MC made his name by taking 2 GSL titles ...
Obviously I meant in recent times--i.e., what they did to earn the name he has NOW. The last of MC's GSL titles, as legitimate as they were, was three and a half years ago. I guess you could also say that San "made his name" by having Tastosis constantly make fun of him in early 2011 after he accidentally blocked his own natural with cannons.
By that logic Polt didn't do anything to earn his name but beat up some Americans and the occasional wandering Chinese.
It's true for some more than others. For example, since HotS came out, Polt's match winrate against only Koreans and only in offline games (the setting for the top premier tournaments) is a solid 55.5%. MC's winrate under those same standards is 40.5%. So yeah, ever since HotS came out, MC loses to Koreans much more often than he beats them.
But the point of my post is not to hate on MC. If you read what I was posting about I was arguing against the article's and many posters' assumptions that unless Classic wins Blizzcon, he's just another "patchtoss" and doesn't deserve respect as a top player. I still stand by my statement that over the course of 2014, except for Zest, there's no Protoss you can point to and say "he's clearly played better in 2014 than Classic."
I actually found my own winrates quoted above quite interesting, so I looked up every Blizzcon player's records in HotS against Koreans in offline matches (on Aligulac, of course):
Were these winrates based on games againsts "Korean" Koreans (that is, Koreans who were on KESPA teams at the time of the switch) or does it include all Koreans? the broader group of Koreans?
Almost certainly all Koreans, it's not possible to filter for "KeSPA" Koreans because the definition is fuzzy given that some teams send their players abroad, some play online and some don't.
Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon, not necessarily 1 per day (which wouldn't have worked anyway because time). Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote: Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote: Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote: Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote: Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote: Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote: Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon, not necessarily 1 per day (which wouldn't have worked anyway because time). Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
If so then you shouldnt have published article#1 already. I think that 1 per day is the most important thing.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote: Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon, not necessarily 1 per day (which wouldn't have worked anyway because time). Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
If so then you shouldnt have published article#1 already. I think that 1 per day is the most important thing.
But if they did publish it later they wouldn't even have had 16 days until the Global Finals to publish one each day
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote: Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote: Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote: Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
2:0 Seed 0:2 TAiLS 2:0 RorO 2:1 Hydra 1:2 Life 2:1 Hydra 2:1 PartinG 2:1 soO 3:1 Paralyze 4:2 Maru 4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills?
Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now?
Now? Um....soO.
Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row
He doesn't even make finals anymore
True. But if he had, you can be pretty sure he wouldn't have choked in all 5.
Would you say he "choked" in the last one?
Sadly, at this point, it's probably irrelevant whether soO "choked" in those games or not. Anyone casually looking at soO's past results and his most recent results (the games against Innovation), can easily come up with a semi-plausible explanation involving the words "Kong," "second place," "finals," and "choking." It's not necessarily a bad explanation of why Innovation won. Obviously, soO entered the finals as someone who had already lost four finals and that probably did affect his mindset. So, there is something to saying that soO was hindered by his past failures.
The problem, however, is that by saying that soO choked you can explain the GSL season 3 finals without ever having to actually watch the games involved in those finals. It's unpleasant and unsatisfying as an explanation because it involves explaining the results of the games by means of the player's mindset, something viewer's have limited access to, rather than by means of the specific builds, actions, and events in those games, which viewers can y'know actually see.
Of course, that's probably the point, saying soO loses in the finals because he chokes is an easy explanation and it will be the prevalent explanation because it's an easy one or, at least, its easier than watching and analyzing the actual games.
There aren't so few games of SC2 out there that you have to draw gameplay conclusions from every single one you come across.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote: Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
2:0 Seed 0:2 TAiLS 2:0 RorO 2:1 Hydra 1:2 Life 2:1 Hydra 2:1 PartinG 2:1 soO 3:1 Paralyze 4:2 Maru 4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills?
Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now?
Now? Um....soO.
Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row
He doesn't even make finals anymore
True. But if he had, you can be pretty sure he wouldn't have choked in all 5.
Would you say he "choked" in the last one?
Sadly, at this point, it's probably irrelevant whether soO "choked" in those games or not. Anyone casually looking at soO's past results and his most recent results (the games against Innovation), can easily come up with a semi-plausible explanation involving the words "Kong," "second place," "finals," and "choking." It's not necessarily a bad explanation of why Innovation won. Obviously, soO entered the finals as someone who had already lost four finals and that probably did affect his mindset. So, there is something to saying that soO was hindered by his past failures.
The problem, however, is that by saying that soO choked you can explain the GSL season 3 finals without ever having to actually watch the games involved in those finals. It's unpleasant and unsatisfying as an explanation because it involves explaining the results of the games by means of the player's mindset, something viewer's have limited access to, rather than by means of the specific builds, actions, and events in those games, which viewers can y'know actually see.
Of course, that's probably the point, saying soO loses in the finals because he chokes is an easy explanation and it will be the prevalent explanation because it's an easy one or, at least, its easier than watching and analyzing the actual games.
I would never deny that Innovation is a very good player - perhaps even the best in TvZ - or that he deserved to win the GSL by merit of his skill alone. I will, however, say that soO makes mistakes more frequently in finals settings than he does elsewhere. His finals against Solar - an opponent he tore apart not too long earlier in a match-up he really masters - was a very good example of this. Obviously "nerves" doesn't tell the whole story, but it has become a reality that soO suffers from problems beyond just gameplay once he reaches the finals of any tournament.
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote: I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote: Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
2:0 Seed 0:2 TAiLS 2:0 RorO 2:1 Hydra 1:2 Life 2:1 Hydra 2:1 PartinG 2:1 soO 3:1 Paralyze 4:2 Maru 4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills?
Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now?
Now? Um....soO.
Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row
He doesn't even make finals anymore
True. But if he had, you can be pretty sure he wouldn't have choked in all 5.
Would you say he "choked" in the last one?
Sadly, at this point, it's probably irrelevant whether soO "choked" in those games or not. Anyone casually looking at soO's past results and his most recent results (the games against Innovation), can easily come up with a semi-plausible explanation involving the words "Kong," "second place," "finals," and "choking." It's not necessarily a bad explanation of why Innovation won. Obviously, soO entered the finals as someone who had already lost four finals and that probably did affect his mindset. So, there is something to saying that soO was hindered by his past failures.
The problem, however, is that by saying that soO choked you can explain the GSL season 3 finals without ever having to actually watch the games involved in those finals. It's unpleasant and unsatisfying as an explanation because it involves explaining the results of the games by means of the player's mindset, something viewer's have limited access to, rather than by means of the specific builds, actions, and events in those games, which viewers can y'know actually see.
Of course, that's probably the point, saying soO loses in the finals because he chokes is an easy explanation and it will be the prevalent explanation because it's an easy one or, at least, its easier than watching and analyzing the actual games.
I would never deny that Innovation is a very good player - perhaps even the best in TvZ - or that he deserved to win the GSL by merit of his skill alone. I will, however, say that soO makes mistakes more frequently in finals settings than he does elsewhere. His finals against Solar - an opponent he tore apart not too long earlier in a match-up he really masters - was a very good example of this. Obviously "nerves" doesn't tell the whole story, but it has become a reality that soO suffers from problems beyond just gameplay once he reaches the finals of any tournament.
To be sure. I think you’re right about both soO’s performance in finals and Innovation's TvZ, but why did you say that soO choked in all 5 finals? Is that really the best explanation of all 5 losses? Well, whatever, it was inappropriate of me to respond to TheDwf's question so it's not as if I'm in any position to object. + Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2014 11:08 sadiroTnuda wrote:In which case, if individual skill determines tournament results but factors independent of the actions of individual players, such as the state of the game’s balance, determine the extent to which individual players can demonstrate their skill, then to what extent is it ever truly possible to say that Innovation, or any other player, deserves to win solely based on the merits of their skill?
...should be something to think about, at least.
That's an impossible question to answer. As long as game balance is not literally 33.33333-33.33333-33.33333 (a physical impossibility with the races being so fundamentally different), we'll never be able to say that it played a non-significant, or even a smaller part than other factors in contributing to a particular win. All we can do is base our judgments on as much context as possible... and then use that understanding to build the most balanced game we can.
On October 19 2014 11:08 sadiroTnuda wrote:In which case, if individual skill determines tournament results but factors independent of the actions of individual players, such as the state of the game’s balance, determine the extent to which individual players can demonstrate their skill, then to what extent is it ever truly possible to say that Innovation, or any other player, deserves to win solely based on the merits of their skill?
...should be something to think about, at least.
That's an impossible question to answer. As long as game balance is not literally 33.33333-33.33333-33.33333 (a physical impossibility with the races being so fundamentally different), we'll never be able to say that it played a non-significant, or even a smaller part than other factors in contributing to a particular win. All we can do is base our judgments on as much context as possible... and then use that understanding to build the most balanced game we can.
Yeah, that was kinda the point I was driving at, don't know why I was so ponderous in trying to get to it.
Never a fan of Classic but this article is so well written : ) With soO on the other half of the bracket I think classic may have a decent chance to get to the final