Star "HangShow" S4E4 - Balance talk with Flash

MC: Here is the first topic, can players figure out the balance vs patch is needed
for the balance?

Um Jae Kyung: Any RTS games, in terms of balance, the balance issue will be solved
over time by itself. That is how it has been done in the past and I think it is how it should
be in SC2 as well. There were a lot of moments in BW where one race was thought to
be OP over others. But the pros tried to hard to create solutions and eventually they
came up with new builds that could solve help them win games. But in SC2, there are too
many patches in such short period of time and it’s really hard for players to figure out the
game. SC2 is professionally competitive game. We have coaches, teams, staffs
members, and pro players who are all trying to come up with new strategies all the time.
So I believe that time will certainly help us balance out the game eventually.

Coach Lee: I agree with him. As a head coach, I’ve actually had first-hand experience
with how the RTS game has developed and balanced out over a long period of time. For
example, in BW Terran was having a very hard time against Zergs who turtled with many
sunken colonies. But one player actually came out with an innovative strategy that
consists of more Firebats and medics instead of traditional Marines + medics.

GoRush: I also agree with what they’ve said. If players try hard enough to come up with
new strategies and play styles, I think patches are not necessary for the game balance.
Back when I won a championship, people said that Terran was OP against Zerg. But I had
a very different style than any other zerg and that definitely helped me a lot.

Susie Kim: Yeah, I have a similar opinion as well. As a pro player, it’s his job to come
up with new strategies to beat your opponent. It’s also in those moments that a “star”
players will rise up to the top and become popular.

TheMarine: I think I’m looking at it from a different perspective than everyone. I do
agree with what everyone has said but right now there have been already too many
balance patches by Blizzard and it’s kind of too late to just keep the game as is at the
moment. Personally, when they first introduced Hellbats, I thought that they needed the
nerf because they were too powerful. However, whenever Blizzard nerfs a unit, it’s
always a “either-or” kind of a nerf. You either end up using that unit, or don’t use that
unit at all after the patch. Blizzard’s patches have been too extreme like this for a very
long time and the game has become too unstable. So currently, I think a necessary
patch is needed to fix the game back to a more “stable” state and THEN we can let the
players figure out the game. And we can also use maps to balance the game afterwards.
I used to work as a map tester for BW and wherever we made new maps, we went to
every team and players and made sure that the maps are actually balanced and well
designed before it was introduced to the public. But to be frank, Blizzard made maps that
I’ve seen don’t really look like they’ve taken enough time and effort to make sure
everything is well balanced among all 3 races.

Flash: Generally, I think players can balance the game over time. I’ve personally done it
during my BW career and I still think it’s possible in SC2. But right now, I also really agree
with what TheMarine has said just now. The current balance of SC2… it’s not that
balanced. I mean, everyone knows that it’s not balanced right now honestly. But from
what I’ve experienced with Blizzard and DK in SC2, I think it’s pointless for pro players to
argue about the balance. So right now, I tend to just keep quiet about the balance
because people who play Zerg or Protoss will just call me a whiner. But maybe during
today’s show, I will talk more about what I really think about the game.

MC: So do you not have any mean to communicate with Blizzard about the game?

Flash: Well, it is possible to communicate with them. DK has asked me about the
feedback and I’ve personally talked to him on the phone as well. But players tend to be
very biased towards their race. So it’s really hard to balance that out.

TheMarine: I’ve also talked to DK about this but when Korean players give feedback on
the balance, a lot of people tend to be biased and emotional. So I know it’s really hard
for Blizzard to filter those out. But recently, there are so many Protoss winning premier
tournaments and that just seems wrong. Even Hyun has tweeted about his frustration.

MC: Ok, lets take a closer look at what has happened in SC2 balance. There was
a popular “Broodlord Infester Corrupter” build in WoL

TheMarine: this was the epitome of a “boring game style” in SC2. It was also necessary
to play like that if you wanted to win as Zerg.

GoRush: I think Broodlord Infester type of play was also huge because of the maps. The
maps allowed zerg players to safely get that composition. If we had more maps I think it
could have been a lot better than it actually was.

Flash: Whenever I ask current Zerg players about WoL Broodlord Infester build, they
always admitted that it was too strong. It’s always later that the players will admit to
things like this haha. But recently in HoTS, Zerg players and Protoss players always argue
about how underpowered their race is in ZvP. But what’s funny is that they both agree
that Terran is the weakest out of three.

TheMarine: So can you tell us if that’s how most pros think about the current balance
of the game?

Flash: I can’t say 100% but as for my team, all the protoss players say PvZ is hard
while PvT is pretty easy right now. And all the Zerg players also say that ZvP is hard while
ZvT is pretty easy. And I think most players from other teams will agree as well.

MC: At the end of BW, there weren’t that many scary Terran players. I could only think
of Flash and Fantasy and most players were afraid of you. How about now, what do
people think when they face you in SC2?

Flash: Oh, it’s a “thank you” for everyone. People love playing against me not because
I’m Flash but because I play Terran. Generally, everyone LOVES to face against Terran. In
proleague, Zerg players go out wishing that they would face a Terran player. Same with
Protoss, all Protoss players wish that they’d meet a Terran. Even I go out wishing that I’d
meet Terran too. That’s the reality right now…

Coach Lee: I’ve talked with a lot of players as a coach. And what Flash said is exactly
right. People are so happy when they meet a Terran player. Everyone says that facing
against Zerg/Protoss is hard but facing a Terran is super easy. When they face a Terran
player, they don’t have to worry about much stuff and feel like they could still easily win.

TheMarine: This issue totally makes sense though. If an RTS game gets played a lot by
pro players over long period of time, the defense gets easier and easier while the offense
gets harder and harder. As a player who’s defending, you get used to any kind of timings
your opponent throws at you as you practice 100 or even 1000 times. But if you are the
one attacking, it gets harder and harder to find that gap or opening to attack. I don’t
think Protoss is extremely OP btw, but the main problem with current Protoss is that
when they win, it’s too easy. It LOOKS like it’s just an A-MOVE and super easy whenever
they win while Terran and Zergs look like they are trying to micro their units so much to
get that win.

Um Jae Kyung: Then, do you think it’s possible for someone to come up with a
strategy that we’ve never seen before which will solve the current balance issue? Just like
Boxer, July and some other legendary BW figures.

Flash: Hmm.. I’m not quite sure but I think it’s possible. But even if there was that
legendary figure “Bonjwa” I don’t think it will last very long. After couple of seasons, it will
just die out again.

Um Jae Kyung: In BW there were many Bonjwa’s that have pioneered a new
strategies. Like Mutalisk stacking control, or Queen’s broodling build, or aggressive
Zergling/lurker style. It took them a long time but slowly but sure people started to come
up with more strategies.

MC: Then do you think we haven’t given much time to players in SC2 compared to BW?
Do you think that if we give them enough time, SC2 players will figure out the solution to
the current problems?

TheMarine: I don’t think so. When JulyZerg first came up with the Mutalisk stacking
control, Starcraft pro scene was still very young and growing. We didn’t have effective
coaching systems or team structures back then. But SC2, we’ve already adapted many
of the systems from BW and the rate of new meta game getting settled or figured out is
way faster than what it was before. I think that current meta for SC2 is probably already
reached its highest potential and we can’t improve much more in terms of new meta or
strategy. And in SC2, it’s hard for players to even bring out new strategies even though
it’s an RTS game. This is because the interface is way too easier in SC2. Just look at how
easy it is to macro and make units in SC2. There is technically no skill gap among any
Korean players. So the skilled players are not even able to show off their skills with such
low skill ceiling in SC2. In my opinion, I think all races need something that they can work
towards the late game. It’s more exciting for players and spectators and it also allows
comebacks to happen. Current Terran is not really this way.

MC: What do you think now after TheMarine said about the current balance?

Um Jae Kyung: I think that is a good point. And I also want to bring up maps in this
topic. Currently there are two major leagues in Korea. Proleague and GSL. I think the
map pools in these leagues should be drastically different. So that even if one race is
slightly better than the other, we can balance out the overall trend by introducing
new/different maps in each leagues. This way, we can have multiple races winning
multiple leagues and get better esports story line as well.

Flash: I think that’s a good idea actually. Although it might make it a bit hard for us,
progamers to prepare, I think it will definitely spice up things in the league.

MC: How about what TheMarine said, do you agree with him?

Flash: Yes I agree with him. I agree that the interface in SC2 is way too easy. It’s just
like TOO easy.

GoRush: But we are talking about balance patch right now so it’s kind of unrealistic to
expect interface patch at this point… so are you saying that we should… go back to BW?


Everyone: hahahaha.

Susie Kim: I also believe that SC2 and BW are different. For BW there are a lot of
flexibility to create new strategies or play styles. But in SC2, things like hard counters or
easy interface prevent new strategies. It’s basically two different games that we can’t
quite compare.

TheMarine: I think Blizzard is pushing a certain units to be used in certain situation while
other units are only used in another situation. It’s like they are forcing us to play the
game the way they want us to… This is why we have units like Battlecruisers that are
never get used or other units like Ravens, which we use in super late game but very
boring style with PDD’s but also necessary if Terran wants to win against Zerg. It’s just
boring to watch. I hope that Blizzard makes more units viable in more situations. That
way, different players can use different units with their own styles. This is what made BW
so great. But currently so many fans and players are complaining about the Terran unit
composition and how one dimensional it is. I think that’s one of the biggest problem right
now.

MC: Recently Blizzard has posted a new suggested patch note for Terran. (Medivac buff/
mine buff) What do you think about this changes, do you think it will help Terran with its
late game? I personally don’t think it will help that much.

Flash: Yeah, I don’t think those changes are that helpful for Terran in terms of late
game. Honestly, I would rather not see any more patches at this point. It is just too
often right now. I know everyone thinks Terran is underpowered right now, but I try to
overcome that myself with practice. And so finally I think I got used to the current TvP
and slowly figured out the match up. But everytime I feel like I’m doing better, that’s
when Blizzard comes out with a new patch and that just annoys me a lot.

TheMarine: This is why I wanted to bring up a suggestion to Blizzard Korea Dept. to
create better communication method with pro players and Blizzard’s balance team.
Blizzard says that they communicate with pros but it’s not really that effective with a lot
delays and inflexibility. I hope we could make a better system that will bring more players
together with easier method to bring in their feedbacks.
Also another point I want to bring up is that I personally wouldn’t mind if Blizzard decides
to ignore the unit counters and relationship in game. They are so caught up with their
relationships between units and their damage output among all three races right now
(such as light, heavy, armored, biological, mechani, etc). But if necessary, they should be
more flexible with their numbers and damage output. For example, if Mech is viable
against zerg but not against Protoss, they should be willing to change the numbers only
specific for TvP. Yes, it might be confusing for some people but they are 3 completely
different races and as long as it makes the game more exciting to watch and play, it
should be fine. Fans are so tired of seeing the same exact game play right now. As a
Terran player, you are just trying to finish the game before 15 minute mark. If the
Protoss player successfully defended, they can just stump roll Terran players(to be
extreme). It’s just so boring because we don’t see that many different play styles
anymore. SC2 seriously need some new innovative changes that will allow players to
play differently.

MC: Great points, thank you. Then how would we go about patching the game right
now?

Susie Kim: Actually in NA or EU, a lot of people say that we should just forget about the
patches and wait for LoTV. They say that even after patches, it will not solve the core
problems and it won’t really change much.

GoRush: Yeah, in foreign regions, many fans have said that small patches are pretty
pointless. Many users followed the scene from BW and they would rather not see the
patch anymore until LoTV. To make the game more interesting the game needs to go
through a major changes that they hope to see that in LoTV.

MC: Wow that’s actually a pretty harsh view on the game. So they don’t even think that
patches will solve the problems?

Um Jae Kyung: Hmm. Maybe people aren’t really complaining about the balance after
all. All that matters is if this game is fun or not. If the game is actually fun to play and
watch, no one will really complain about the small imbalance. But because the gameplay
is very dull and boring, people are desperate to see new changes.

MC: Ok, Lastly, let’s have an opportunity to talk about things that we want from
DK now.

Flash: I hope that they won’t come up with too many patches in a short period of time.
It discourages players from practicing or trying very hard and a lot of fans also do not like
constant changes in the game. So please try and trust the players and give some more
time. But of course, currently so many people are raging about the current state of the
game right now and that should be fixed asap but hopefully in the future, that doesn’t
happen.

MC: Your main point is that patching the game too often isn’t great for players, then
what do you think about right now? As a Terran player, do you think there should be a
patch right now?

Flash: Even right now, I don’t think the patch is necessary. I honestly didn’t really have
much to say about the current balance of the game.

Um Jae Kyung: As a balance team, of course they have to listen to the community and
pay close attention to pro scenes and tournaments. But they should also be able to take
them with a grain of salt. They need to be objective and have clear goal.

GoRush: I believe that patches are not enough to fix the game at this point. Because the
game itself is so detailed with things like +damage against armored and etc.. So instead
of these number or stat patches, I wish they could bring us more micro-able units or so
that better players could overcome those balance issues with their skills or control.
Um Jae Kyung: It’s a good idea, but I think that kind of interface changes cannot be done
right now, I think it makes sense to wait for LoTV and hopefully Blizzard does something
about it.

Coach Lee: Personally, as long as it’s not game breaking, most of the small patches are
not that important. And constant patches will only give burdens to pro players right now.
So please don’t even bother with these little patches but rather worry about LoTV so that
the game could be perfected in the next expansion.

TheMarine: I think what GoRush said about the SC2 interface is the most important
thing. But that’s more of a futuristic issue. But my biggest complaint is the game play in
each match-up’s. If we look back at when Terran was the strongest, it was actually when
the 200/200 ghost army composition was viable. And when Zerg was the strongest, it
was the 200/200 broodlord infester army composition. And now, the 200/200 Toss
colossi + HT composition is really strong for Protoss. These kind of game plays are very
boring and it will slowly hurt the SC2 scene. I’m not saying we need a direct patch to
change this game play at this moment. But when LoTV, I really wish Blizzard takes a lot
of effort to change and spice up the game plays. I would be very disappointed if the LoTV
stays exactly the same with just couple of new units introduced. That’s not going to be
more fun that HoTS or WoL. It’s just a “patched” WoL with couple units added. Also
please add more micro-able contents to the game. Honestly, the only exciting units that
are micro-able are stalkers for me. There should be more micro-able units for all three
races.