Medivac Medivac harass has been getting weaker since the beginning of HotS due to players improving at defending against them. If we increase the strength of Medivacs, we’d not only help out Terran on both matchups, but also help provide even more action-packed games to watch. We wonder if buffing the unload speed or increasing the duration of the speed boost slightly would help in a positive way.
This has got to be the dumbest rationale ever for a balance change. "Players are getting better at something, so let's make it harder!" Really? Isn't it good for gameplay to evolve as players figure the game out? Do we really want the game itself to be changed to keep play-styles static?
On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote: I'm pretty sure you are not looking back enough when you talk about an imbalanced game because early 2012 was considered the best Starcraft2 ever.
Early 2012 did have the best SC2 ever, but it wasn't balanced, not even close. It was definitely Terran favored. It was fun because there was a lot of back forth between the races, and short action packed games were more common than turtlefests.
Medivac Medivac harass has been getting weaker since the beginning of HotS due to players improving at defending against them. If we increase the strength of Medivacs, we’d not only help out Terran on both matchups, but also help provide even more action-packed games to watch. We wonder if buffing the unload speed or increasing the duration of the speed boost slightly would help in a positive way.
This has got to be the dumbest rationale ever for a balance change. "Players are getting better at something, so let's make it harder!" Really? Isn't it good for gameplay to evolve as players figure the game out? Do we really want the game itself to be changed to keep play-styles static?
I totally agree. It is like they want Medivac drop to do damage no matter how well defended they are.
On July 03 2014 01:23 MichaelDonovan wrote: Woah why is everyone shitting on Ret? Let's get off of our gold league fanaticism and listen to a professional, okay people? .
Listen, I like Ret and haven't criticized him, but this is just dumb. It is the logical fallacy of authority.
Wrong is wrong and right is right, no matter who says or does it. Just because he plays the game for a living doesn't mean he is right. His arguments needs to stand independent of him. If his arguments suddenly hold less weight when I repeat them, then your logic is flawed and you are only believing them because he is Ret, which is a terrible reason to believe anything.
After all I still believe that T and Z must switch positions in the metagame of this matchup. T should be the strong but slow race whichs army survives all attacks and finally gets really strong. Right now it is the opposite: Z can (must) survive all terran attacks to finally get really strong and roll over the terran. If they swap this real balance will be possible that satisfies players of all races, because all the units, buildings and stuff of terran fit this style of play. Z and T in ZvT do not fit their roles in the meta at all with the given race mechanics they have. A race who has unlimited production abilities (Z) and mobile units should not be the strong endgame race because its getting automatically overpowered like this. Instead it should be the one throwing wave after wave against the terran, who can defend it. And a race like terran who got all the tools to turtle with slow units and stuff should not be the early/mid aggressor that if it fails to succeed is not flexible enough (a zerg would be) to transition into anything or get the next expansion up on some maps.
Plz no flames!
While most of your argument works, this piece seems to be using lore and BW design as its evidence more than actual gameplay and meta.
As far as your baneling critique goes, yes, you're right. I don't know where the sweet spot is for terran units vs. banelings go. Having 1 mine able to detonate a kajillion banelings with one shot seemed like overkill, but right now, it just feels too downright ineffective, even with multiple mines.
Just imagine Z was in the position of attacking terran for 20 minutes in a row and fails to kill him. Terran then would move out and claim mapcontrol and get with his slow units more and more close to the crucial zerg expansions. Zerg has then the flexibility to throw different kind of stuff on this upcoming siege/attack and will try to delay it. Terrans units are not fast enough to overroll Z completely at once and an interesting fight for the middle expansions is coming up, terran can back up his slowly falling units with other units (transitions, that are being slowly created).
Now: T attacks Z for 20 minutes, Z surives. Z flies with 40 mutas to T and T is dead.
Evident?
No sounds pretty gooddamn bad. If T Is just turtling, you can see how fun that is with mech vs zerg or even back in late WOL, where nothing happens untill a timing. I think most terrans and zerg who play the matchup commonly prefer that it is the terran that moves out which exposes him self to counterharassment as well. Thus, it's actually incorrect that it's only the terran that is aggressive. Rather, it has a pretty interesting dynamic when terran is moving out on the map attempting to clear out creep.
On July 03 2014 03:38 Wombat_NI wrote: Dwf, is PO's potency at a specific timing window the biggest issue in the matchup, is it map sizes (albeit Alterzim is going thank fuck), is it just the difficulty in lategame control or what is the primary issue with TvP, for you?
Pretty much all HotS TvP issues stem from the MSC. The speeding of Protoss development and the huge asymmetry in options by early game all come from there. Protoss can tech too quickly because they have 2 Photon Overcharges (one at 5'30, the other at 8'30) before the Medivac push. As for options, the MSC killed countless Terran openings while expanding Protoss' ones.
TvP 2 rack expand 8.3, even if u go fast robo after 1gate fe, first colossus will be barely out...
A Colossus was never needed to hold a stim timing. Gate units and possibly one Immortal were enough even in WoL.
This is completely untrue. Maybe you could forcefield them out for 15 or 30 seconds, but Gateway units alone have never been able to hold a 1/1 stim bio push so long as the Terran has middle to good control.
Never talked about 1/1.
Does YoDa commit here? Nope; he doesn't because he knows he gets dismantled by Forcefield if he tries to engage. His 3 rax stim timing—and he even has CS here—is refuted without any Colossus needed; and Terran would not have more than 12 Marines 3 Marauders at 7'55 with a post-stim buff timing.
Hey wassup. When i was thinking about a way to buff terran in both matchups, and in the right stage of the game without breaking some thin balanced lines, i was having trouble. Buff terran late game vs toss is not that hard but for zerg the problem is not exactly the late game. 3/3 upgrades and terran is ok, ultras and broodlords are costly timings for zerg, that last until terran can adapt the army composition. Good marauder numbers vs ultras and t is fine, good viking numbers vs bl and t is fine too (assuming terran was ok before the zerg tech switch). the problem with the matchup is that baneling speed + muta timing that last until terran secures an upgrade advantage. Overall the matchup is back and forth, but the problem is the standard mutabane vs bio something with even upgrades, that last too long in zerg's favour. Mine buff can help but its potentially harmful for TvP. Not imba, but protoss is going to die early or survive and be ahead, which is bad since its not fun and frustrating for both sides. Other possibility is protoss turtling heavy, also bad. Looking at people suggestions and my own views i think this should be good: -Thor speed buff affects biomech more than mech only and thats is good since mech is not weak, altough map specific (so yeah, no tank buff). I think zerg is not stronger without a big muta cloud so that is a good fix. -Cost reduction for sensor tower looks good, terran has no observers or creep, while scan is too costly. Some people suggested turtling upgrades but those make the game boring. -Ghost academy building speed and cost reduced, allow terran to get ghosts faster. As a reactive tech, building speed is very important. Lower building cost makes it less wasteful to make the ghost academy for a few ghosts, and also help terran to adjust an earlier ghost academy to their builds. -Other possibility is a viking damage buff supporting thor viking combo vs muta and better reaction to colossus. Improving damage for landed mode too cannot hurt. For TvZ buff for vikings, thors and infestors would be healthy, and would make ZvZ better in the process. We still have trauma of the BL infestor era but its long gone with tempests. While terran is going to be happy with double anti air buff. For TvP viking and ghost academy changes are maybe too much, but its all about placing the right numbers. What do you think? Please no heavy bias. Edit: about the post above, its just as easy to find a VOD where protoss with no colossus takes big damage from a stim push.
On July 03 2014 03:38 Wombat_NI wrote: Dwf, is PO's potency at a specific timing window the biggest issue in the matchup, is it map sizes (albeit Alterzim is going thank fuck), is it just the difficulty in lategame control or what is the primary issue with TvP, for you?
Pretty much all HotS TvP issues stem from the MSC. The speeding of Protoss development and the huge asymmetry in options by early game all come from there. Protoss can tech too quickly because they have 2 Photon Overcharges (one at 5'30, the other at 8'30) before the Medivac push. As for options, the MSC killed countless Terran openings while expanding Protoss' ones.
TvP 2 rack expand 8.3, even if u go fast robo after 1gate fe, first colossus will be barely out...
A Colossus was never needed to hold a stim timing. Gate units and possibly one Immortal were enough even in WoL.
This is completely untrue. Maybe you could forcefield them out for 15 or 30 seconds, but Gateway units alone have never been able to hold a 1/1 stim bio push so long as the Terran has middle to good control.
Does YoDa commit here? Nope; he doesn't because he knows he gets dismantled by Forcefield if he tries to engage. His 3 rax stim timing—and he even has CS here—is refuted without any Colossus needed; and Terran would not have more than 12 Marines 3 Marauders at 7'55 with a post-stim buff timing.
The Medivac push already has 1/1, stim and CS. Reverting the stim nerf has zero effect on the Medivac timing.
it does,stim take less time so CS will come faster. why this vid youtube cause it's a perfect macro timing^^ flash vs life 2013 at 10.4, CS not done, 1-1 finished, first couple of medivacs in production then second coule of medivacs in prod....CS not done..^^
Early 2012 did have the best SC2 ever, but it wasn't balanced, not even close. It was definitely Terran favored. It was fun because there was a lot of back forth between the races, and short action packed games were more common than turtlefests.
Well not too the same extent and in a different way. It is true that in 2011/early 2011 one could argue that terran had the highest skill ceiling, which caused them to have great tournament results. But if we look at statistically significant metrics, terran wasn't performing well. According to Aliguac statistics, win/rates were for the most of early 2012 below 50% with terran represention in nonmirror matchups being 68% in January and afterwards declining.
The difference between the numbers back then and today, is that today terran is underperforming in the broader competitive scene and in the very top. The cloest thing we get to the balance today is probably early WOL, where zerg was very UP. But back then we still had a couple of zergs doing very well, but overall it was hugely underrepresented with poor to mediocre win/rates.
i really think T defensive options should be buffed more so than the offensive capabilities. especially with bio
1) reduce bunker build time and hit points, whats the point of being able to repair it when 8 roaches 1shot it. 2) lategame upgrades in the fusion core or smth (so that you dont have it available) that gives turrets an aoe capability such that any more than 8-10 turrets firing at once will be able to hold off any mutalisk number. 3) give the option for orbitals, at the expense of 50 or 100 energy to become a planetary for 20 seconds!!!
The Medivac push already has 1/1, stim and CS. Reverting the stim nerf has zero effect on the Medivac timing.
it does,stim take less time so CS will come faster. why this vid youtube cause it's a perfect macro timing^^ flash vs life 2013 at 10.4, CS not done, 1-1 finished, first couple of medivacs in production then second coule of medivacs in prod....CS not done..^^ edit: if stim come faster i think new BO will come too
Yep, CS isn't done when the 2 first Medivacs are out. But you have to take into account the travel time, so Flash does have 1/1, stim and CS when the Medivac push hits the border of the creep.
The Medivac push already has 1/1, stim and CS. Reverting the stim nerf has zero effect on the Medivac timing.
it does,stim take less time so CS will come faster. why this vid youtube cause it's a perfect macro timing^^ flash vs life 2013 at 10.4, CS not done, 1-1 finished, first couple of medivacs in production then second coule of medivacs in prod....CS not done..^^ edit: if stim come faster i think new BO will come too
Yep, CS isn't done when the 2 first Medivacs are out. But you have to take into account the travel time, so Flash does have 1/1, stim and CS when the Medivac push hits the border of the creep.
if u have stim/cs/1-1/mines/helion u strat travel and poke creep, as soon as medivac pop, boost to army, 25 secondes save
also does a 2rack expand can force a overcharge in early game? if yesn at 8.3 terran will have stim and toss one overcharge left, next timing will be hard foor toss^^
edit: if stim come faster i think new BO will come too
On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote: And winrate were exactly 50% in all 3 MU, there was an even number of P T and Z.
15T-10P-7Z... Where is this "even". Where??? I argue that Terran made up nearly 50% of Code S, and your response is "the distribution was even". Lol.
And we had 58% and 50% winrate for Terran this Code S season. But you know, same argument that is valid right now - less represented race should win more if the games was balanced - applied back in the days. If the other races had been on the rise to even out the distribution, they would have had better winrates than 50:50, same as Terran right now that in aligulac and Code S aren't far away from 50:50.
On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote: 2 of the best BO7 ever happened in the meantime.
MMA vs DRG was bullshit apart from g7. Jjakji vs Leenock vs great, but far from the quality that a Life vs Mvp or many other games later would provide, plainly by the increase in quality of gameplay.
I think slightly faster stim can help Terran be a bit more aggressive early / make Protoss be less greedy, but the Terran has to be really proactive. He has to move out early and force the early overcharge so that his second push can force another overcharge and then finally his attack with Medivacs etc. can do damage, or at least force Protoss to stay home since he won't have overcharge to defend drops.
It will also help defend some Protoss allins better, or at least make them "more allin" which is what a lot of people are calling for. As someone who doesn't really pre-stim allin anyway I'm fine with it, but some unscouted allins should still be viable.. so the stim time reduction should be moderate.
But it doesn't really expand the options Terran has, it just makes everything come sooner. So it could even out win rates on paper but I don't think it's what the Terran players want. They want to be able to incorporate diffeent units into their composition that they don't currently use.
Basically Terrans want to use Tanks. I think it's reasonable to look at a Tank change?? I mean it's not rocket science. Tanks need to be a little bit better vs. everything else but not too strong vs. bio. Or Terrans need to just accept that buffing Tanks will make bio much harder to play in TvT.
Blizzard. For the love of god. Please do something with the Tank.
Really, you will make so many Terran players happy.
Increasing the boost speed can be really good escaping mutalisks in TvZ, often you see Zerg cathing medivacs (guess its a risk dropping but something you have to do to stress or create a diversion) and zergs got pretty good defending and/or penetrate terran drop timing. What i've heard, some terrans think it's really difficult against ultra/viper compositions.
On July 03 2014 05:19 Ajukrejzi wrote: Increasing the boost speed can be really good escaping mutalisks in TvZ, often you see Zerg cathing medivacs (guess its a risk dropping but something you have to do to stress or create a diversion) and zergs got pretty good defending and/or penetrate terran drop timing. What i've heard, some terrans think it's really difficult against ultra/viper compositions.
I mean if they moved at 7 speed it would also help avoid Muta, but the point of the Muta is precisely to stop the drops.
I don't thinik drop ships need to be faster. They're already a fucking pain in the ass. Dropships are not the reason Terrans are losing. Lack of splash vs. banelings and susceptibility to Protoss allins are the reasons they are losing.
On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote: And winrate were exactly 50% in all 3 MU, there was an even number of P T and Z.
15T-10P-7Z... Where is this "even". Where??? I argue that Terran made up nearly 50% of Code S, and your response is "the distribution was even". Lol.
And we had 58% and 50% winrate for Terran this Code S season. But you know, same argument that is valid right now - less represented race should win more if the games was balanced - applied back in the days. If the other races had been on the rise to even out the distribution, they would have had better winrates than 50:50, same as Terran right now that in aligulac and Code S aren't far away from 50:50.
On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote:Viewership was at its highest.
Evidence? I'm pretty sure that SC2 viewership was steadily declining after mid 2011, maybe even earlier.
On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote: 2 of the best BO7 ever happened in the meantime.
MMA vs DRG was bullshit apart from g7. Jjakji vs Leenock vs great, but far from the quality that a Life vs Mvp or many other games later would provide, plainly by the increase in quality of gameplay.
On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote: So what, a bunch of 3 of the best players happened to be terrans (MMA, MKP and Mvp) but that's it.
Yeah, and in late 2012 Leenock, Life and Stephano just happened to be the best players.
Ofc there were a bit more terrans in code S, but it was in result of the old GSL system where getting kicked out code S was extermelly difficult.
I repeat nearly 50% Terrans after 2seasons with the new system.
I'm pretty sure you are not looking back enough when you talk about an imbalanced game because early 2012 was considered the best Starcraft2 ever.
forum circlejerk, invented by Terrans in hindsight during the later disastrous situation with BL/Infestor.
Mvp vs Squirtle, Jjakji vs Leenock ? Does it ring a bell now ? I can add Polt vs Stephano, MKP vs DRG at MLG Winter too.
15 terrans isn't as bad as only 3 terrans right ? Ok it was a lot but if you look at the GSL in may, it drop down to 13 without any patch.
Wasn't MKP vs DRG the roach/baneling vs 2rax cheesefest? Where they managed to play more cheeses than games?
And yeah, I didn't consider anything past May for "early 2012" (as the MLG Spring Championship), since all of that was after the queen patch which usually is marked as the deadline of "early 2012". I guess I was very wrong on that, I thought the viewership had declined earlier.
15Terrans isn't as bad as 3 Terrans, that's for sure.
On July 03 2014 05:24 Dingodile wrote: Did they patch any WoL units in HotS? I feel they only change HotS units to avoid to say that HotS (units) is a failure.
Reaper - built in speed damage change regeneration Battlecruiser - damage change Raven - seeker change Tank - comes with siege mode Ghost - comes with energy
Roach - burrow moves faster Hydra - upgrades for it Overseer - moves faster
Carrier - more microable DT - shrine is cheaper Pylon - low ground cant power high ground anymore
On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote: And winrate were exactly 50% in all 3 MU, there was an even number of P T and Z.
15T-10P-7Z... Where is this "even". Where??? I argue that Terran made up nearly 50% of Code S, and your response is "the distribution was even". Lol.
And we had 58% and 50% winrate for Terran this Code S season. But you know, same argument that is valid right now - less represented race should win more if the games was balanced - applied back in the days. If the other races had been on the rise to even out the distribution, they would have had better winrates than 50:50, same as Terran right now that in aligulac and Code S aren't far away from 50:50.
On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote:Viewership was at its highest.
Evidence? I'm pretty sure that SC2 viewership was steadily declining after mid 2011, maybe even earlier.
On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote: 2 of the best BO7 ever happened in the meantime.
MMA vs DRG was bullshit apart from g7. Jjakji vs Leenock vs great, but far from the quality that a Life vs Mvp or many other games later would provide, plainly by the increase in quality of gameplay.
On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote: So what, a bunch of 3 of the best players happened to be terrans (MMA, MKP and Mvp) but that's it.
Yeah, and in late 2012 Leenock, Life and Stephano just happened to be the best players.
Ofc there were a bit more terrans in code S, but it was in result of the old GSL system where getting kicked out code S was extermelly difficult.
I repeat nearly 50% Terrans after 2seasons with the new system.
I'm pretty sure you are not looking back enough when you talk about an imbalanced game because early 2012 was considered the best Starcraft2 ever.
forum circlejerk, invented by Terrans in hindsight during the later disastrous situation with BL/Infestor.
Mvp vs Squirtle, Jjakji vs Leenock ? Does it ring a bell now ? I can add Polt vs Stephano, MKP vs DRG at MLG Winter too.
15 terrans isn't as bad as only 3 terrans right ? Ok it was a lot but if you look at the GSL in may, it drop down to 13 without any patch.
Wasn't MKP vs DRG the roach/baneling vs 2rax cheesefest? Where they managed to play more cheeses than games?
And yeah, I didn't consider anything past May for "early 2012" (as the MLG Spring Championship), since all of that was after the queen patch which usually is marked as the deadline of "early 2012". I guess I was very wrong on that, I thought the viewership had declined earlier.
15Terrans isn't as bad as 3 Terrans, that's for sure.
The queen patch (11 may) became huge much later, when zerg realized how strong they could greed. There was 3 MKP vs DRG in MLGs. Some were meh and one sided tho. MMA vs DRG was sick as fuck too. Terran wasn't imbalance in this period, on the contrary, it was very balanced and racial distribution tend even out but ofc, we need more than just 5 months for everytime to became flat out perfect, it was difficult to get kicked out GSL for instance, when you came from GomTvT, it would ofc take time for the non-deserving terrans to be kicked.
So yes, terran won a lot of tournament, still, but it was really people we still consider the best of their time, noone would dare to say that Mvp or MMA didn't deserve to in their GSL, won't you agree ? In the meantime we had the best Stephano, Huk would win an MLG, and there wasn't a single TvT for that period. Players like Life or Parting weren't at their best yet, but I'm pretty sure they would have kicked ass nonetheless.
And yeah, the 1st part of 2012 was the highest viewership wise.
EPT
