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bObA
France300 Posts
On July 02 2014 02:09 Karpfen wrote: Yes to both. You'd have to be a hypocritical fuck not to vote yes to both. Agree 100% So many seasons terrans are completely out of every tournaments, only taeja won because it is summer time | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11919 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:09 Faust852 wrote: What about the fact there was, in fact, an even ratio between race a while back ? Terrans just got lazier right ? That's one of my arguments. The ratio was even at the beginning of HotS, when terran was perceived to be the best race (whether because of imbalance or because others hadn't adapted yet, doesn't matter). If what you're saying was true, there should have been more terrans than the other races. Instead it was just even. | ||
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Penev
28440 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:09 Faust852 wrote: What about the fact there was, in fact, an even ratio between race a while back ? Terrans just got lazier right ? I'm not agreeing with Nebuchad but you should really improve on your reading comprehension (I've noticed it before, the lack thereof). Talent is overrated, you get good through practice. In my opinion terran is harder to get good with, so less people will be willing to put in the practice in order to get good with it. This is what you've missed apparently. | ||
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LastDance
New Zealand510 Posts
So over it. These guys don't know what they are doing. There's nothing wrong with the way Medivacs are at the moment and mines are conceptually flawed. Maybe try addressing the rest of the Terran arsenal? Try taking a few pages from starbow | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Terran instead would make a good survival race that gets its strength in the lategame when rolling out wih mass heavy units, building up sieges and so on. Z can then choose from a big arsenal of units to fight this and switch them quickly due to its flexibility. The heavy & slowly dieing terran army would then allow terrans to transition (slowly) as well. Right now it is a stupid rally of units against each other (ling bane vs bio) without any strategy being involved. It all depends only on player mechanics and little tactical endeavors like positioning and timing. | ||
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Penguinator
United States837 Posts
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:16 LastDance wrote: Try taking a few pages from starbow From starbow's extensive eSport experience, you say? I hope they don't buff the medivacs or mines, either, but c'mon, let's not dive that far off the deep end. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:11 Cazimirbzh wrote: 1/1 push will be at 11m = -1 cycle of inject for Z, pretty hard nerf if u aad hellbat up The Medivac push already has 1/1, stim and CS. Reverting the stim nerf has zero effect on the Medivac timing. TvP 2 rack expand 8.3, even if u go fast robo after 1gate fe, first colossus will be barely out... A Colossus was never needed to hold a stim timing. Gate units and possibly one Immortal were enough even in WoL. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On July 03 2014 02:56 plogamer wrote: And back when 1/1/1 smashed Protoss, you wouldn't make the argument that Protoss is just harder to get good with. I actually have good memories from that time. For all the balance problems and the Protoss sorrow, Terran was for once capable of using more then just MMM. Imagine if Terran could use Tanks and Banshees in a "normal" game how TvP would look... | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:12 Nebuchad wrote: That's one of my arguments. The ratio was even at the beginning of HotS, when terran was perceived to be the best race (whether because of imbalance or because others hadn't adapted yet, doesn't matter). If what you're saying was true, there should have been more terrans than the other races. Instead it was just even. I wasn't talking about hots, be before that, when the game was actually balanced. Remember early 2012 ? | ||
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Konranjyoutai
112 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:12 bObA wrote: Agree 100% So many seasons terrans are completely out of every tournaments, only taeja won because it is summer time The problem is not the units but the defenses that each race has against them. Increasing the speed of the medivac isn't going to change the fact that Protoss has a one button defense to target it almost instantly. Same with the widow mine, increasing the splash radius isn't going to do anything but make a coin-flippy unit do more splash damage against their own units. The main problem is that Terran is pigeonholed into one opening from the beginning of the game because their scouting options are poor. When facing Protoss they are essentially unable to dictate the game unless it is a short 5-8 minutes in the mid-game, which is usually defended easily by competent players. When facing Zerg they have a few more options but as soon as it gets to the late game, there is essentially nothing a Terran can do to a competent player. Buffing two units which change nothing about the early and late game will not help Terran win more. Either the Thor, Battlecruiser, Siege Tank, or an early game scouting option need to be buffed in order for anything to happen. The ideal option for me (even as a Zerg player) would be a combination of one of the unit buffs above and for the Mutalisk and Photon Overcharge be nerfed or in case of PO, be removed. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:12 bObA wrote: Agree 100% So many seasons terrans are completely out of every tournaments, only taeja won because it is summer time Most people agree to terran buffs. i still say no to medivac buff and probably no to widow mine, cuz they belong to the better weapons of the terran arsenal as it is. buff bunkers, sensor towers, turrents, building armor upgrade, ghosts and tanks - that would be a better way. example: - bunker hitpoints increased from 400 to 500 - sensor tower cost changed from 125/100 to 75/50. buliding time reduced from 25 to 20. - turrent build time changed from 25 to 20 seconds. - turrent damage changed from 12*2 to 12(+4 vs light)*2 - ghost snipe damage increased from 25(+25 vs psy) to 35(+15 vs psy) - tanks (siegemode) damage changed from 35(+15 vs armor) to 18(+7 vs armor)*2 - building armor changed from 150/150/140sec to 100/100/60sec if you take all changes combined it would probably be too much, but those would be the things i would test. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23776 Posts
Dwf, is PO's potency at a specific timing window the biggest issue in the matchup, is it map sizes (albeit Alterzim is going thank fuck), is it just the difficulty in lategame control or what is the primary issue with TvP, for you? PO as far as I can tell is only really that strong at timings before and up to the traditional medivac push, which is the period where Terrans used to get the most joy. That near inability to pressure unless your opponent screws up really seems to snowball. Protoss initially got torn apart in HoTS solely because they hadn't made the adjustment that hard teching on 2 bases with much later thirds cut down the ground to cover defensively. As a response Terran have been taking bolder steps economically, getting huge edges in production but seemingly finding it hard to capitalise on that. Large maps is a factor here as well, Terran reinforcements can really take a while to traverse these maps and push an advantage. I really liked your idea about lategame reaper upgrades to give them the ability to snipe buildings, I remember Thorzain experimenting with it for a while and it interested me. The reliance on the medivac to harass and pin players comes with its own issues, namely the delicate balance in starport production. Losing medivacs is painful because it cuts into Starport production time, which you need for panic Vikings. Not a horrendous issue but one oft neglected is medivac retention being so critical for Terran, forward blinks and muta chases can turn tactical retreats into total routes. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:26 Faust852 wrote: I wasn't talking about hots, be before that, when the game was actually balanced. Remember early 2012 ? yeah. I remember how Terran's tried and apparently still try to conceive us that only winning 8/13 Premier tournaments, Terran being at an alltime low of 15/32 players in GSL twice in a row and a non-Terran winning 1/5 of the latest Code S tournaments was "balanced". Oh no wait, I don't even remember that. I remember that Terrans called PvT unwinnable after Creators double forge revolution that lead to only 50% wins for Terran and ZvT lategame broken after the ghost-nerf. Not even Terrans considered that periode balanced back in the days (though the other way around), so why should we suddenly consider it balanced now? | ||
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Penev
28440 Posts
Change ground attack: 12 to 2x6 (it has 2 miniguns) + 2x4 vs armored. This will double the DPS vs Immortals (10 to 20) and up the damage 12 to 20 vs Stalkers. It also makes it better against roaches (and Ultra's lol) and tanks. The former is a good thing and for the latter I propose a HP buff to the tank and or a decrease in the transforming time. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:40 Big J wrote: yeah. I remember how Terran's tried and apparently still try to conceive us that only winning 8/13 Premier tournaments, Terran being at an alltime low of 15/32 players in GSL twice in a row and a non-Terran winning 1/5 of the latest Code S tournaments was "balanced". Oh no wait, I don't even remember that. I remember that Terrans called PvT unwinnable after Creators double forge revolution that lead to only 50% wins for Terran and ZvT lategame broken after the ghost-nerf. Not even Terrans considered that periode balanced back in the days (though the other way around), so why should we suddenly consider it balanced? And winrate were exactly 50% in all 3 MU, there was an even number of P T and Z. Viewership was at its highest. 2 of the best BO7 ever happened in the meantime. So what, a bunch of 3 of the best players happened to be terrans (MMA, MKP and Mvp) but that's it. Ofc there were a bit more terrans in code S, but it was in result of the old GSL system where getting kicked out code S was extermelly difficult. I'm pretty sure you are not looking back enough when you talk about an imbalanced game because early 2012 was considered the best Starcraft2 ever. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11919 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:26 Faust852 wrote: I wasn't talking about hots, be before that, when the game was actually balanced. Remember early 2012 ? Remember october 2011, when there were 20 terrans in code S and 1 protoss in Ro16? Aligulac has more active protoss players than terran players for that period (list 43/44) You just can't say that balance dictates race distribution, because you have no basis for an equal player pool of "could-be-noticed-but-weren't" players. When a race is inferior, the player pool will lower. When a race is superior, it will increase. This is self-evident. But when a match-up is balanced, why should the two races have the same amount of players? It can happen, but it doesn't have to. Unless you want to argue zerg has always been overpowered in Australia for some reason. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On July 03 2014 04:01 Nebuchad wrote: Remember october 2011, when there were 20 terrans in code S and 1 protoss in Ro16? Aligulac has more active protoss players than terran players for that period (list 42) You just can't say that balance dictates race distribution, because you have no basis for an equal player pool of "could-be-noticed-but-weren't" players. When a race is inferior, the player pool will lower. When a race is superior, it will increase. This is self-evident. But when a match-up is balanced, why should the two races have the same amount of players? It can happen, but it doesn't have to. Unless you want to argue zerg has always been overpowered in Australia for some reason. There are a lot of nasty insects, spiders and venomous stuff in australia. Wouldn't be surprised. | ||
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Redfish
United States142 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:20 TheDwf wrote: A Colossus was never needed to hold a stim timing. Gate units and possibly one Immortal were enough even in WoL. This is completely untrue. Maybe you could forcefield them out for 15 or 30 seconds, but Gateway units alone have never been able to hold a 1/1 stim bio push so long as the Terran has middle to good control. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote: And winrate were exactly 50% in all 3 MU, there was an even number of P T and Z. 15T-10P-7Z... Where is this "even". Where??? I argue that Terran made up nearly 50% of Code S, and your response is "the distribution was even". Lol. And we had 58% and 50% winrate for Terran this Code S season. But you know, same argument that is valid right now - less represented race should win more if the games was balanced - applied back in the days. If the other races had been on the rise to even out the distribution, they would have had better winrates than 50:50, same as Terran right now that in aligulac and Code S aren't far away from 50:50. On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote:Viewership was at its highest. Evidence? I'm pretty sure that SC2 viewership was steadily declining after mid 2011, maybe even earlier. On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote: 2 of the best BO7 ever happened in the meantime. MMA vs DRG was bullshit apart from g7. Jjakji vs Leenock vs great, but far from the quality that a Life vs Mvp or many other games later would provide, plainly by the increase in quality of gameplay. On July 03 2014 03:46 Faust852 wrote: So what, a bunch of 3 of the best players happened to be terrans (MMA, MKP and Mvp) but that's it. Yeah, and in late 2012 Leenock, Life and Stephano just happened to be the best players. Ofc there were a bit more terrans in code S, but it was in result of the old GSL system where getting kicked out code S was extermelly difficult. I repeat nearly 50% Terrans after 2seasons with the new system. I'm pretty sure you are not looking back enough when you talk about an imbalanced game because early 2012 was considered the best Starcraft2 ever. forum circlejerk, invented by Terrans in hindsight during the later disastrous situation with BL/Infestor. | ||
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