EPTTurtles was looking for people to help out on his AI: http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/asalt/forum/
What do YOU want regarding Blizzard-AI? - Page 2
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iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
Turtles was looking for people to help out on his AI: http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/asalt/forum/ | ||
Jer99
Canada8157 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
The AI never uses any HotS units at all, which is just ridiculously uncaring and dumb by Blizzard. Regarding more advanced/harder things: - can't/doesn't wall or pseudo-wall - generally doesn't seem react to nearby threats until those threats are actually attacking them or in visual range (even if it has cheating vision) - has significant problems dealing with cloaked/burrowed units blocking buildings - has problems dealing with cheap/abusive harass, including worker harass/distraction I think. - doesn't seem to specifically counter the enemy's units optimally or even at all. I'm of the opinion that until AIs get decent, they should be able to use and abuse complete cheating vision, since it's as if it's a good player making smart predictions and lucky guesses (all too often a player may think someone's maphacking when really they were just lucky and/or smart, and the AI should reflect such worst-case scenarios). | ||
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NeoBlade
Germany262 Posts
Good tip. I will fix that. In one Tychus-Mission there are Warp-Prism-Drops. I will use this AI-logic. > Warp prisms never do warp-ins. I think I can fix that, too. > AI never does ramp wall-offs (let alone any wall-offs) To create a wall-off is totally simple, but to use them, really is difficult. E.g. I can create a wall (Terran) at the ramp. No problem. Any time I want. I can let the AI rebuild it. No problem. But the AI will not raise a supply depot if attacked. There might be some triggers to raise the Depot if damaged, but then the AI has to repair it. Afterwards you have to give the command to lower it again. Not an easy task. But if it's important for the community, I will try it. > Terran AI never floats buildings. I do not think I will fix that. Messing with Saturation is totally difficult. E.g. If I order the AI to build a Queen in a Hatch, all Drones are removed from Gas. I spent several hours to figure that out. At first I was totally lost, when the AI stopped mining gas. > Do the Zerg AI's ever burrow? Yes, like Queens and Drones. Could be GT AI, what I have in mind, but I am pretty sure the Blizzard-AI can do it on Elite and Cheater+. I think I can manage to do something like Roach-Burrow (Heal). At least I will try. > http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~cdavid/starcraftaicomp/ Great idea, but that would need a complete team. Just building a website like this is a lot of work. > I played on extreme, way too difficult too follow all objectives Extreme = Elite? Well to start with Elite is like Silver plays against a Diamond in his first game of the saison. If you are Gold try "Medium", then "Hard" or "Harder". I designed "Elite" to be a challenge for a Diamond player. A Master had no problems with it. He almost lost a Hatch to Void Rays, though. > I died because I was unable to protect my phoenix (object requirement) and > canceling opponents expand. This is not a problem with the AI, but you are right. Protecting your Phoenix is important, since the Mental Checklist (Day9) requires to constantly move and watch your army (Phoenix). http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mental_Checklist http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-360-mental-checklist-exercises/ If you find that too difficult, just move your Phoenix to a save spot, where no attack is possible. You should have been able to kill an expansion with 12 Immos and Mass Zealot, should you not? | ||
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TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
> I played on extreme, way too difficult too follow all objectives Extreme = Elite? Well to start with Elite is like Silver plays against a Diamond in his first game of the saison. If you are Gold try "Medium", then "Hard" or "Harder". I designed "Elite" to be a challenge for a Diamond player. A Master had no problems with it. He almost lost a Hatch to Void Rays, though. > I died because I was unable to protect my phoenix (object requirement) and > canceling opponents expand. This is not a problem with the AI, but you are right. Protecting your Phoenix is important, since the Mental Checklist (Day9) requires to constantly move and watch your army (Phoenix). (Wiki)Mental_Checklist http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-360-mental-checklist-exercises/ If you find that too difficult, just move your Phoenix to a save spot, where no attack is possible. You should have been able to kill an expansion with 12 Immos and Mass Zealot, should you not? Yes Elite. And I thought I can kill an expansion at any time. It said "dead" before the fight happened, and opponent did some mutas to kill my phoenix, all phoenix survived. | ||
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
On June 24 2014 20:22 TAMinator wrote: Make AI less easily abused (hard I know) Are you talking about AI with cheating? PvP is the easiest Matchup to win even without cannon rush or proxy stuff. | ||
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NeoBlade
Germany262 Posts
EDIT: Inactive. Quote: "This project has become inactive. This project is inactive and its default file will likely not work with the most recent version of StarCraft II. The author may have abandoned it, or it may have outlived its usefulness." IMHO they should ask to join forces with the GTAI (Green Tea AI) project. Quote: "these calls can be expensive, they also ignore units/buildings when pathing. returns -1 if no path/known building native int AIPathDistToNearestKnownEnemyStructure (int player, point loc, bool onlyDropoffs); native int AIPathDistToNearestFriendlyStructure (int player, point loc, bool onlyDropoffs); native bool AICanPathToAnyKnownEnemyStructure (int player, point loc, bool onlyDropoffs);" They try to create a complete new AI. Like GTAI (Green Tea AI) some patches will destroy their logic. Old GTAI maps won't work with HOTS anymore. New versions will, but if you use GTAI SC2gears won't work with the replays. I could live with that, but GTAI has other problems, too. Open a new map with the latest GTAI version and see for yourself. It builds HOTS units though. > The AI never uses any HotS units at all, which is just ridiculously > uncaring and dumb by Blizzard. I agree and I fixed that for Protoss. Just start "Daybreak NeoMT" and see for yourself. It will attack you with MCore and Tempest. > I want a good AI for Starbow to help new players learn it better, could you do that? Yes, but I am not interested in Starbow. Never played it, sorry. > generally doesn't seem react to nearby threats until those threats > are actually attacking them or in visual range Good point. I will keep that in mind. But I need Replays with my AI on that one. My AI blocks the a third hatch. If Zerg attacks that Pylon and WarpGates are ready, the AI will defend it. > I play vs A.I. all the time, just for fun. I wish the A.I. could do a > really stout timing attack, which they cannot. You are right. If you choose "DT rush" it builds a Dark Shrine at 6:15 or 6:30. But sometimes the AI does not attack. To force the AI to execute a specific BO is too difficult. Start a map with GTAI and see for yourself. All openings are from WOL. Therefore such an AI would need constant attention and a deep understanding or the current Meta-Game. If I program an AI which executes an Immo-Sentry-All-In like HerO does (with Micro), no one below Masters (Grandmasters?) will be able to hold it. But I want to support players in lower leagues. A Silver player should be able to beat "Very easy" and "Easy", but it should be harder than normal. I think my "Very easy" is harder than Blizzard-AI "Very easy". My AI should beat a player with good Macro & Mechanics, the most important things in SC2. Micro is an important part of SC2, but you can have all the Blink-Micro in the world. If you are 1Base, with 10 Probes the first 15 minutes in a game, you won't win against good Macro (Master level). And for lower levels it is very important to improve their Macro and work on their Mechaincs. „If you try a get a lesson with me and you are below diamond league this is how our lesson is gonna go: I'm gonna watch you play, I'm gonna say: 'Try this really simple 1Base-Build.' And then I'm gonna tell you take this 1Base-Build and do it really, really (...) well. When you feel you can't do it any better, make it a little more complicated. (...) I tell you, make it more complicated by throwing an expansion and after you got the mechanics down solidly, you are gonna be in diamond league or high platinum." (Steven "Destiny" Bonnell im Video „Destiny going mass queens [Game 1] - Starcraft 2") | ||
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ETisME
12384 Posts
I actually don't mind play against AI so long it's not cheating or abusable. I am even ok if the AI only does all in haha | ||
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NeoBlade
Germany262 Posts
Try "Medium" at first. If you win move on to "Hard" or "Harder". "Elite" is very strong. Expansions: No, you don't have all the time in the world. You should deny a third expansion. If you fail, the objective will turn red. If that happens, you should immediately scout for a third base and destroy it. If the AI starts a fourth base you can destroy it, while its building, but when it's done, you die. Reason: Scouting and attacking/harrassing is an important part of SC2. Of course you can turtle (15 minutes) on one base in Bronze and still win the game, but you can't in Platinum or Diamond. Not an AI issue: To force a Silver/Gold player to attack and to scout, I invented a kill trigger, which kills you, if the enemy gets a fourth base. If I will make an AI-Mod, this won't happen of course. Kill trigger: Should I go for five bases instead of four? > hidden bases Done. Both AIs (Zerg/Protoss) are building hidden bases. > proxy gateways (lol) proxy factory proxy hatch Proxy gates and proxy Hatch are possible. Proxy factory is irrelevant, because commands for WidowMines are not present in SC2 editor. I can build them, but I cannot order them to burrow. A proxy hatch really is simple, but to put Spine Crawler there is not that simple because Creep is missing at first. But I need Regions for Bullies anywas and I think there is a trigger to check "I there creep?". If I do Proxy Gates, I have to send all created Zealots directly to the enemy (should work with Regions and Gather Points, I guess). What would be a good number to attack? 2? 4? > SCV pulls? Possible, but they will attack a Nexus or do some other silly Micro. To program good Micro like that is way above my head. > anything that makes the games more realistic CannonRush works. If you choose "Insane" on Daybreak, the chance is 90% you will get a CR. It's a bad CR, but if a player does not scout it, it might be effective. > and then ai to mimic what i did so i can test things I don't think that's possible. As far as I know, you need Bullies to create buildings. E.g. YABOT used the GTAI. If you chose "Nexus First" the GTAI build a Pylon and a Nexus. But it did not build the Nexus at the Natural, the AI build it inside the Main. Therefore you need Bullies to specify an exact location. > can't/doesn't wall or pseudo-wall I will test it for Protoss. I am not sure how to fix a simple problem: If a Zealot is on hold position ... how does the AI recognize to move it away, when other units want to leave the base? I could do a YufFE-wall though. ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/f/ff/YufFE_Frost_bottom_right.jpg/153px-YufFE_Frost_bottom_right.jpg) Would that be enough? > has significant problems dealing with cloaked/burrowed units blocking buildings I cannot reproduce this problem with Elite-AI. If I block a third or fourth Nexus on "Daybreak NeoMT", the AI a) kills the Pylon b) builds the Nexus beside it. Can you upload a Replay using "Daybreak NeoMT", please? > If it is good enough I will use it for warming up before laddering. I think it is. Which server are you on? I have to check if there is the latest version ... The AI will loose to well hidden Proxy-Gates and I don't think there is anything I can do about it. However, it's not my goal to make the AI un-cheesable. It should loose to Cheese and All-Ins, because to execute a 6Pool is not as difficult as winning a Macro game against Jaedong. The AI should beat Bronze to Dia with good Macro & Mechanics. > I actually don't mind play against AI so long it's not > cheating or abusable. What does that exactly mean? | ||
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Zulu23
Germany132 Posts
So far I haven't seen any "i" within the NeoMT. It´s a Map full of triggers, that forces the player to do what your intentions are. Issues after some tests (Polar Night NeoMT) The Computer has a natural right from the start, a lot of creepspread, tumors and static defence. Why? An AI that has granted the term AI should be able to start with the same resources and setting than the player. The Computer starts way early to mine from the natural. The units are created randomly somewhere on the map and not made of larvae. There are seamingly lots of triggers that create unit waves rather then macroed by the AI. The player is forced to micro Pheonixes, what is very weird if you play Terran. Mutalisks pop is triggered in close proximity of Phoenixes, which you are not allowed to micro until the mutalisks pop, and the game ends instantly if you lose a Phoenix. Overlords pop out of nothing at certain times and creep instantly the 3rd base. The worker counter is inaccurate. All is done by triggers and not Ai like calculated and operated on clear algorithms. An Ai should at least not waste 20+ lings on a single bunker thats on repair or 10+ mutalisks on turrets on repair, but as long as there pop units randomly without larvae consumption it's a multitasking trainer and not an AI for me at least. The Map is useful though, for praciticing multitasking | ||
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NeoBlade
Germany262 Posts
- EU - NA - KR - SEA => "Daybreak NeoMT" and "Polar Night NeoMT" Question to all of you: Do you find Macro errors/mistakes? > The Computer has a natural right from the start, a lot of > creepspread, tumors and static defence. Why? If I order the AI to build the Hatch, it won't build gas there. I tried to solve this problem and I still try to solve it, but I could not do it. If the AI has no Creep-Tumors it won't spread creep like a human does. > The Computer starts way early to mine from the natural. There is nothing I can do about it. > The units are created randomly somewhere on the map and > not made of larvae. There are seamingly lots of triggers that > create unit waves rather then macroed by the AI. If I pickup all units, which were actually build by the AI and issue an attack command it will attack with all workers, too. If I deselect all workers, after the attack Saturation is destroyed and workers move from Natural to Main and vice versa. If there is any way to force a good Saturation, please let me know. Off-Topic: Since ordering a Hatch to build a Queen removes all Drones from gas it would help me if someone just could tell me how to order 3 Drones into gas. > The worker counter is inaccurate. Blizzard-Bug. All Drones in Gas are not on "Playable Map Area" anymore. They vanish. > Overlords pop out of nothing at certain times and creep instantly the 3rd base. I will try to fix that, but I assume it will produce the same problem as an A-Move for other units. But if it does not, I will take an Ovi, which is produced by the AI. > All is done by triggers This is intended. Additional informations: [Trigger/AI] Making your own SkyNet | ||
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Zulu23
Germany132 Posts
Could you imagine to help me with my trainig map idea? I called it "Unit Mix Challenge Map" and I explained what I mean with it in the official BNet forum here: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10494680418 Could you check it out and let me know what you think? BR | ||
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
I find pretty terrible that I must have >70workers to avoid dying. You know that more than 66 is very bad in ZvZ. I denied 3rd very easily on 3rd or 4th or 5th spot until 18.min, suddenly I died because AI made 4 macro-hatch at mainbase. Pretty impossible to beat at that point because there are ~15spines and ~15 spores at natural and main. Sounds like AI uses mineral cheating. I am not sure how to get a check at denying 3rd and other ojectives?! | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On June 24 2014 22:30 NeoBlade wrote: > has significant problems dealing with cloaked/burrowed units blocking buildings I cannot reproduce this problem with Elite-AI. If I block a third or fourth Nexus on "Daybreak NeoMT", the AI a) kills the Pylon b) builds the Nexus beside it. Can you upload a Replay using "Daybreak NeoMT", please? I'm talking about how Blizzard AI will not use detection to destroy burrowed/cloaked units blocking thing like expansions. Building beside it is quite unacceptable because that causes a huge reduction in economy when the burrowed/cloaked unit is properly positioned (especially considering that one could use 4 units to essentially block the entire nearby area from being built upon) Pylons aren't cloaked. I can't remember well, but I don't think buildings have been a significant problem for the AI aside from advantageously distracting it. I was referring mostly to things like burrowed zerglings. _____________________________ Shouldn't really call this an AI if it's just a training map with a bunch of triggers. Training maps like this have very limited effectiveness in many ways, not to say they aren't useful for people who want them. | ||
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NeoBlade
Germany262 Posts
This is a bug. Could you upload a Replay please? I have to check the position. ">70workers to avoid dying" No, you do not. The trigger is deactivated at the 10-minute-mark. I forgot to mention that (F12 = Help), sorry. So if the AI has 50 at 10:00 you need 31. I guess that's ok. The amount is shown if you move your mouse over the Objective. | ||
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SlammerIV
United States526 Posts
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NeoBlade
Germany262 Posts
New Release: "Multitasking Trainer Alterzim (NeoMT)" => Terran | ||
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LordYama
United States370 Posts
I'd also like if the computer had a more coherent build, its Terran ones are always a weird bio/mech mix with the odd raven and BC thrown in. Definitely drop harrassment would be good, it would help you practice scouting for drops and responding to them even if they didn't do a great job microing them. | ||
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NeoBlade
Germany262 Posts
Like I said before, it's really too much work to program solid BOs. And it is not necessary to beat Bronze to Dia to use a "state-of-the-art-Meta-Game" opening. E.g. the AI uses 1Rax or 2Rax-Expand. That's good enough. It just has to attack and harrass the human opponent plus good Macro & Mechanics to beat him. I would love any kind of AI or map that would do micro intensive early cheeses like proxy 2rax bunker rush TvZ, proxy 2 gate, and cannon rush. I don't know if this is possible but I'd really like it. I will try that, but that will take a lot of time and I need ppl who are willing to test. Even Ling-Micro is a difficult thing. To create a 7 and 10Pool map would be quite easy. I guess I start with that. Would you help me to test it? Add me on EU: NeoBlade.869 ... I dunno my NA charcode. NeoBlade.4xy? (A bad) CannonRush works on Daybreak, try it please. Definitely drop harrassment would be good, it would help you practice scouting for drops and responding to them even if they didn't do a great job microing them. I'm on it.  > Pretty impossible to beat at that point because there > are ~15spines and ~15 spores at natural and > main. Sounds like AI uses mineral cheating. It does not cheat. Please look at your Replay. If a Spine or a Spore is build, the AI uses a Drone & Minerals for it. The AI always gets Overmins. I don't know why, but since Zerg-AI does not mine enough Gas I order it to build static defense. | ||
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