On June 04 2014 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote: It was better in 2010 when maps were smaller and action started immediately (although it was a worse experience for players)
and they were playing bw
Yeah. TvT in broodwar was amazing to watch for first time viewers. An hour long game where nothing happens.
You obviously did not watch BW TvT
It was BW ZvZ that was terrible during early BW. Nothing but lings and scourge.
Of course I didn't watch it, I only pretend to so I can look cool on the Internet while talking about shit I know nothing about..
TvT in BW was exciting..WHEN you knew what was going on. As a first time viewer all you're really seeing is two people not engaging each other for an hour.
No, you saw units with real world attachments you could grok.
When I first watched TvT replays in 2000, I felt like I was watching WW1 esque trench lines with waves of troops dying with each push as the silence between them tinged with excitement.
I hated all non-TvT matches because none of them game me that familiarity. I didn't "get it" of course, I was noob. But tanks staring down marines (oh when marines were still a thing in TvT lol)
It less familiar in SC2. The tanks don't have the scary feel that artillery is supposed to have, medivacs healing instead of medics healing has too much cognitive dissonance, and marauders feel too much like tanks on legs.
When I first watched TvT replays in 2000, I felt like I was watching WW1 esque trench lines with waves of troops dying with each push as the silence between them tinged with excitement.
When I first watched TvT replays in 2000, I felt like I was watching WW1 esque trench lines with waves of troops dying with each push as the silence between them tinged with excitement.
That didn't happen.
I remember watching a Boxer replay, TvT on LT, was it the wrong part of high school I'm recalling?
When I first watched TvT replays in 2000, I felt like I was watching WW1 esque trench lines with waves of troops dying with each push as the silence between them tinged with excitement.
That didn't happen.
I remember watching a Boxer replay, TvT on LT, was it the wrong part of high school I'm recalling?
Replays came with 1.08 and that came out in May '01.
When I first watched TvT replays in 2000, I felt like I was watching WW1 esque trench lines with waves of troops dying with each push as the silence between them tinged with excitement.
That didn't happen.
I remember watching a Boxer replay, TvT on LT, was it the wrong part of high school I'm recalling?
?
It's bluestorm instead of LT but boxer does run MM in this game.
edit nm replay and earlier in time, didnt read far enough into the thread
When I first watched TvT replays in 2000, I felt like I was watching WW1 esque trench lines with waves of troops dying with each push as the silence between them tinged with excitement.
That didn't happen.
I remember watching a Boxer replay, TvT on LT, was it the wrong part of high school I'm recalling?
It's bluestorm instead of LT but boxer does run MM in this game.
edit nm replay and earlier in time, didnt read far enough into the thread
I mean an actual replay. I remember downloading pro replays in high school to watch the shit out of it. Must have been when I was a sophomore instead of a freshman. I didn't even realize that it was being broadcasted till much later. Those years kind of blend together to me now lol
You stare at workers mining for about 3 minutes, then you stare at workers running around a black map for another 4 minutes, then suddenly something happens but your attention was already lost 5 minutes into the game. When the action does happen the screen only captures a tiny portion of it and you spend time having to be told by casters that your player is winning/losing by that point you'd rather the RTS was just a radio show since its not like the screen tells you anything.
It was better in 2010 when maps were smaller and action started immediately (although it was a worse experience for players)
With this mindset, you would bet against Poker becoming huge on TV, like many others did. After all, what's exciting about watching people play Poker? The idea that there needs to be flashiness and action to be intense is just incorrect. It's not necessarily what appeals to people.
And your description is just strange, as there usually is skirmishes and harassment and timing pushes in games.
You stare at workers mining for about 3 minutes, then you stare at workers running around a black map for another 4 minutes, then suddenly something happens but your attention was already lost 5 minutes into the game. When the action does happen the screen only captures a tiny portion of it and you spend time having to be told by casters that your player is winning/losing by that point you'd rather the RTS was just a radio show since its not like the screen tells you anything.
It was better in 2010 when maps were smaller and action started immediately (although it was a worse experience for players)
With this mindset, you would bet against Poker becoming huge on TV, like many others did. After all, what's exciting about watching people play Poker? The idea that there needs to be flashiness and action to be intense is just incorrect. It's not necessarily what appeals to people.
And your description is just strange, as there usually is skirmishes and harassment and timing pushes in games.
Which is easily counteracted by the fact that millions of people play poker, poker is presented as normal and manly in all media (films, books, TV shows, plays, etc...) and is something with the majority of people who play it are casuals that don't care about strategy and think its about being a good liar. If we can get as many noobs playing SC2 as there noobs playing Poker then you can show any damn SC2 game and people will suck it up like a monster cock.
There is no mechanical skill needed for poker. There is no long battles.
Its an easy interface anyone can join in on without much practice, and you can play for hundreds of hours or you can play for a few minutes and it will feel like the same experience of watching cards being flipped over while you hold on to your cards. You don't need to relearn mechanics to play it again after not playing it for a few years.
Poker would be a great thing to learn from in developing a casual friendly game that eventually gets televised in america.
On May 23 2014 06:48 jeeeeohn wrote: I think you just want Warcraft 3.
Yeah Warcraft 3 with even more simplified economy/buildings.
No we just want the high microability potential of BW with interesting lore behind it. That's all really, not that difficult to implement if you are thinking of designing a sequel.
That isn't the point of this thread at all though.
It is what the players and the audience want in a RTS game so this is absolutely relevant.
It is what you want in a RTS game aka it is what teamliquid wants in a rts game (and even that is not 100% true) Truth is that the mass audience doesn't see any difference between BW and sc2, if anything they say it is too similar. So no, a BW2 wouldn't be the next big thing (this is also a reason why starbow fails so miserably)
StarBow didn't fail, Tasteless and Artosis have been playing StarBow more than SC2. Its that Blizzard doesn't give it support and I could imagine that Tasteless and Artosis don't want to badmouth SC2 in favor of StarBow because of their contract's obligations.
In the future, when Blizzard stopped their "10 years esport experiment" with SC2, I can almost be certain that with the current patching decision and unit's design, people will look for alternative mods to challenge themselves and StarBow will be right there waiting for them.
Plus many pros have already complimented on StarBow's strong point and it is they appreciate StarBow's micro potentials. So a game funded on BW principle will thrive as long as Blizzard puts in the spotlight.
I think your reasoning why starbow will succeed in the end is nothing more than wishful thinking tbh. Sure, for the more "hardcore" rts players it is worth a look and fun to play, but that doesn't mean that the more "casual" audience cares at all. Let's be real for a moment, when somebody with no real knowledge watches sc2 and then starbow, he will see basically the same thing (even though you think one is vastly superior, which is not important for my argument though). He sees armies fighting against each other and it is hard to grasp for him who is playing better till he knows the end result of the game. That is the biggest strength of mobas imo, you have a lot of indicators of the "skill" of these players, you see kills, cs, a lot of teamfights with obvious outcomes , etc I mean in the end it comes down to what someone expects from the next "big rts", i just don't see it happening with the basic stuff a lot of people on TL love.
They'll see more drawn out battles, more activities around the map, more skirmishes, more harassment. Just plain more actions all around. And I could argue the same about BW, why did it thrive despite being a hard game to play? Because the game had high microability units that people can just make and "specialize" with it because it is challenging to play and challenges = enjoyment of achievement = fun.
I've posted about this earlier in the thread but PRESENTATION for a casual viewer is so important. When I say casual I mean someone who doesn't even play the game, or barely plays it. Even LoL has some of these problems described below but I'm going to ignore gameplay for now and just focus on presentation.
This is a war game and there is so much to be shown at any given time that can be potentially interesting. So a lot of depends on the casters but also the technology the casters have.
I think there's simply no way to do something like show a drop happening while also showing the main army fighting, simultaneously. I just saw it on WCS AM, where there was a main army fight that wasn't over, but all of a sudden casters moved the camera to a medivac on the other side of the map. I get why but it's probably very confusing for a new viewer.
Traditional sports have a KEY object that a camera can focus on (i.e. a ball or a puck). It's a lot harder for things like war because when the army splits up you need to be able to zoom out a lot, and yet you don't want to zoom out so far that you lose all detail about the specifics of the army
EDIT: it's not just army splitting up but production as well. It's a lot cooler to see units pop out of production facilities than look at the production tab or point it out on the minimap.
Until we can use multi-screen views for casting (think large-scale picture-in-picture or split screens) at various zoom levels, and/or allow 100,000 observers in a game (giving the audience full interactivity), I think SC2 and similar games will always be difficult to properly show to an uninformed audience.
I'm not really interested in starcraft becoming a moba/rts hybrid, I mean whats the point? Its just going to pale in comparison to league or Dota.
To be honest, I think traditional vanilla starcraft is WAY easier to watch than a moba if you aren't familiar with either genre, in terms of appreciating the skill of the players. I guess when I think about creating an esport I try to compare it as much to 'real' sport as possible, I think the starcraft model is better in that regard. Well, league is decent, but I never know wtf is going on in Dota.
Guess what I'm saying is I watch starcraft as an esport not to see deep strategic mindgames, but to see high level mechanical skill play out on even ground. Like a 'real' sport. At the end of the day in one game you are controlling 100 units in the other you are controlling one. Mobas are definitely more fun to play though.
I like the idea of a 4th race being added. Would be crazy challenging to do, but who knows.
Also can't believe people are mentioning Hearthstone in this thread. I love hearthstone, but it is not, and never will be, an 'esport'.
On June 04 2014 22:22 Green_25 wrote: I'm not really interested in starcraft becoming a moba/rts hybrid, I mean whats the point? Its just going to pale in comparison to league or Dota.
To be honest, I think traditional vanilla starcraft is WAY easier to watch than a moba if you aren't familiar with either genre, in terms of appreciating the skill of the players. I guess when I think about creating an esport I try to compare it as much to 'real' sport as possible, I think the starcraft model is better in that regard. Well, league is decent, but I never know wtf is going on in Dota.
Guess what I'm saying is I watch starcraft as an esport not to see deep strategic mindgames, but to see high level mechanical skill play out on even ground. Like a 'real' sport. At the end of the day in one game you are controlling 100 units in the other you are controlling one. Mobas are definitely more fun to play though.
I like the idea of a 4th race being added. Would be crazy challenging to do, but who knows.
Also can't believe people are mentioning Hearthstone in this thread. I love hearthstone, but it is not, and never will be, an 'esport'.
hearthstone is an esport already. No clue why you think it wouldn't be.
On June 04 2014 22:22 Green_25 wrote: I'm not really interested in starcraft becoming a moba/rts hybrid, I mean whats the point? Its just going to pale in comparison to league or Dota.
To be honest, I think traditional vanilla starcraft is WAY easier to watch than a moba if you aren't familiar with either genre, in terms of appreciating the skill of the players. I guess when I think about creating an esport I try to compare it as much to 'real' sport as possible, I think the starcraft model is better in that regard. Well, league is decent, but I never know wtf is going on in Dota.
Guess what I'm saying is I watch starcraft as an esport not to see deep strategic mindgames, but to see high level mechanical skill play out on even ground. Like a 'real' sport. At the end of the day in one game you are controlling 100 units in the other you are controlling one. Mobas are definitely more fun to play though.
I like the idea of a 4th race being added. Would be crazy challenging to do, but who knows.
Also can't believe people are mentioning Hearthstone in this thread. I love hearthstone, but it is not, and never will be, an 'esport'.
hearthstone is an esport already. No clue why you think it wouldn't be.
Because its a card game.. duh..
The fact that you can earn money with it, the better player tends to win and people like to watch it does not make something a sport… As far as i know Poker and various other « rl-life » card games aren’t considered sports too…
On June 04 2014 22:22 Green_25 wrote: I'm not really interested in starcraft becoming a moba/rts hybrid, I mean whats the point? Its just going to pale in comparison to league or Dota.
To be honest, I think traditional vanilla starcraft is WAY easier to watch than a moba if you aren't familiar with either genre, in terms of appreciating the skill of the players. I guess when I think about creating an esport I try to compare it as much to 'real' sport as possible, I think the starcraft model is better in that regard. Well, league is decent, but I never know wtf is going on in Dota.
Guess what I'm saying is I watch starcraft as an esport not to see deep strategic mindgames, but to see high level mechanical skill play out on even ground. Like a 'real' sport. At the end of the day in one game you are controlling 100 units in the other you are controlling one. Mobas are definitely more fun to play though.
I like the idea of a 4th race being added. Would be crazy challenging to do, but who knows.
Also can't believe people are mentioning Hearthstone in this thread. I love hearthstone, but it is not, and never will be, an 'esport'.
hearthstone is an esport already. No clue why you think it wouldn't be.
Because its a card game.. duh..
The fact that you can earn money with it, the better player tends to win and people like to watch it does not make something a sport… As far as i know Poker and various other « rl-life » card games aren’t considered sports too…
Chess is considered a sport, but that's not even the question. We are talking esports, which is not the same as sports for several reasons. And as far as I know basically every PC Game that is being played competitively by professionals is considered an esport. That's the only somewhat official criterium I know about.
You stare at workers mining for about 3 minutes, then you stare at workers running around a black map for another 4 minutes, then suddenly something happens but your attention was already lost 5 minutes into the game. When the action does happen the screen only captures a tiny portion of it and you spend time having to be told by casters that your player is winning/losing by that point you'd rather the RTS was just a radio show since its not like the screen tells you anything.
It was better in 2010 when maps were smaller and action started immediately (although it was a worse experience for players)
With this mindset, you would bet against Poker becoming huge on TV, like many others did. After all, what's exciting about watching people play Poker? The idea that there needs to be flashiness and action to be intense is just incorrect. It's not necessarily what appeals to people.
And your description is just strange, as there usually is skirmishes and harassment and timing pushes in games.
Eh you realize that on TV they only show like 10% of the hands played (or something like that). It would be totally boring for "causuals" as well to watch an entire poker tournament. Thus, they only show the actionpacked hands.
Some great news: Microsoft bought Rise of Nations! It will release an extended edition on Steam in June 2014, there are also rumors of bringing it to Xbox.
What Starcraft 2 needs to become a widely accepted "sport" is, as many people have mentioned, better interactivity. As is, the only people that give a damn about watching SC2 are the people who play SC2. How can we present it in a way to the uninformed, unwashed masses that's exciting AND intuitive? In other words, how do we make it easier to understand?
Why not give key information in the border margins of the stream? Like let's say Artosis is talking about a siege tank and someone is like "what does that do?" and then they see a description of a siege tank with it's tech requirements etc. pop up in the border. They read it real quick and then boom, that's information they won't have to re-learn for a while, and it doesn't distract from the game.
EPT
