EPTNow i feel less alone! David continue resisting!
Blizzard's thoughts on Swarm Hosts - Page 25
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polpot
3002 Posts
Now i feel less alone! David continue resisting! | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
On May 07 2014 18:22 ejozl wrote: But removing the + Bio on Spore Crawlers makes it go even. The fear I have with it, is that in a normal ZvZ game Broods will never see the light of day. Also people were laughing about Broodling fights in WoL, it's not that much better than Locust fight... I think it's even worse than the spore crawler buff because now it's both: 1. Why would the Zerg develop a weapon that do more damage only against a unit of their own AND: 2. Why would the Hydra spines do more damage when shot vertically instead of horizontally :-S Oh well.. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 07 2014 17:55 Xapti wrote: Agreed. I don't understand how SHs were even allowed into this game, let alone why they were kept after testing. It took a ton of incompetence to not see that SH's were a problem as soon as they were introduced. It's really enraging at how incompetent they were with this unit. They took out Warhounds (a more obviously stupid unit albeit), why couldn't they have removed Swarm Hosts? As far as I remember the feedback for HotS beta was kind of like: "Warhounds are bullshit; hellbats and mines are no real units; all Terran gets is bullshit. They still have no clue about what the protoss units should look like. OMG, they are changing the oracle again. The only good additions to the game are the zerg units." Many people were quite happy with the SH in its most early days, as far as I remember. The problems only started after the beta, when the turtlemode playstyles with it got invented and when it turned out that any form of aggressive SH build just gets crushed by building the right units - which happen to be the units you build anyways against Zerg. Also it's not like it is "the swarm host is the problem". In ZvZ endgame people use SHs because drops and nydus and all that mobile play that should be good against static units is bad, in that matchup even worse. In ZvT it is being used when you enter the stage of the game where other maxed Zerg armies become laughable because Mech destroys them all, yet the Terran can still increase his army strength for another hour with more 2supply Ravens and less workers if he so pleases, and the only way to stand a chance is by trying to do free damage. ZvP... yeah right. It's totally on the SH and has nothing to do with the Protoss just sitting behind walls and canons and Colossi and Storms and crushing maxed SH-less Zerg with 160supply armies. What needs to be done to remove SHs is some combo of the following things: -) a way to trade of T1-T2 ground army for zerg (like the medivac can do for Terran bio), so that P/T turtle becomes harder -) a better transition of those T1-T2 ground units into the lategame. Instead of having worthless hydra/roach/ling supply sitting around, make those units scary again in the lategame through T3 upgrades or some form of support units (though I feel like the Viper already does that and it's not enough for as long as a roach costs the same supply as a templar) -) a normal siege unit. Something that stops every Zerg player from going like: "oh, a choke point. Time to expand 5more times and wait until the opponent runs out of money, because I will never be able to go through there." And before someone tells me I'm just biased and want buffs... nope. I'd be happy with any insufficient buff of the above, even if it makes me drop two leagues and imbalances the game for a couple of months. But it has to be more than "hohoho, go and figure how to play without SHs". Because that's what everyZerg and their swarmmother has tried. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On May 07 2014 18:33 Big J wrote: As far as I remember the feedback for HotS beta was kind of like: "Warhounds are bullshit; hellbats and mines are no real units; all Terran gets is bullshit. They still have no clue about what the protoss units should look like. OMG, they are changing the oracle again. The only good additions to the game are the zerg units." Many people were quite happy with the SH in its most early days, as far as I remember. The problems only started after the beta, when the turtlemode playstyles with it got invented and when it turned out that any form of aggressive SH build just gets crushed by building the right units - which happen to be the units you build anyways against Zerg. Also it's not like it is "the swarm host is the problem". In ZvZ endgame people use SHs because drops and nydus and all that mobile play that should be good against static units is bad, in that matchup even worse. In ZvT it is being used when you enter the stage of the game where other maxed Zerg armies become laughable because Mech destroys them all, yet the Terran can still increase his army strength for another hour with more 2supply Ravens and less workers if he so pleases, and the only way to stand a chance is by trying to do free damage. ZvP... yeah right. It's totally on the SH and has nothing to do with the Protoss just sitting behind walls and canons and Colossi and Storms and crushing maxed SH-less Zerg with 160supply armies. What needs to be done to remove SHs is some combo of the following things: -) a way to trade of T1-T2 ground army for zerg (like the medivac can do for Terran bio), so that P/T turtle becomes harder -) a better transition of those T1-T2 ground units into the lategame. Instead of having worthless hydra/roach/ling supply sitting around, make those units scary again in the lategame through T3 upgrades or some form of support units (though I feel like the Viper already does that and it's not enough for as long as a roach costs the same supply as a templar) -) a normal siege unit. Something that stops every Zerg player from going like: "oh, a choke point. Time to expand 5more times and wait until the opponent runs out of money, because I will never be able to go through there." And before someone tells me I'm just biased and want buffs... nope. I'd be happy with any insufficient buff of the above, even if it makes me drop two leagues and imbalances the game for a couple of months. But it has to be more than "hohoho, go and figure how to play without SHs". Because that's what everyZerg and their swarmmother has tried. Great post. | ||
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Rider517
70 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
In my opinion, there is no real problem with swarmhosts - they just create a different type of play than other units and I like that, because variety is what keeps me interested in the game. But the "community" (in fact, just a tiny percentage of it, those who scream the loudest) is firmly against any variety, becuase that's just the general trend today online - people feel much "wiser" when they defend "conservative" opinions, because it's the "grown up" thing to do (and the online community is mainly just a bunch of kids who fight for status of "not a kid" by pretending to act that way). Thus, conservative opinions snowball much easier than progressive ones (to be fair, it's also becuase there is only one status quo, but many avanues for variety, so there is less chance for unity). This is exactly the same reason why we can have only boring maps, because anytghing creative is "too imba" and leads to "abuse" (which is just varied play). PS: I apologize to everyone who is not a kid anf honestly dislikes watching/playing SHs - this is a perfectly valid opinion. But I stand by the statement that the sheer prevalence of this opinion is based on societal effects described above. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3561 Posts
I think it's even worse than the spore crawler buff because now it's both: 1. Why would the Zerg develop a weapon that do more damage only against a unit of their own AND: 2. Why would the Hydra spines do more damage when shot vertically instead of horizontally :-S Oh well.. Zerg air units fly like Zeppelins, so sharp spine objects do great. Why would Spore Crawler be good vs allied units, I'd say Hydras are more intelligent=can go against what hivemind-like effect is on them and would be more prone to be hunters of essence, as seen in the HotS campaign. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
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polpot
3002 Posts
On May 07 2014 18:51 opisska wrote: Yep, I was saying that long time ago that I am quite happy with the non-responsivnes of Blizzard to the "community opinion". Recently, they are becoming more and more open and that leads to them listening to all these absurd cries and trying to fix what isn't broken in some poorly concieved attempt to improve their PR. In my opinion, there is no real problem with swarmhosts - they just create a different type of play than other units and I like that, because variety is what keeps me interested in the game. But the "community" (in fact, just a tiny percentage of it, those who scream the loudest) is firmly against any variety, becuase that's just the general trend today online - people feel much "wiser" when they defend "conservative" opinions, because it's the "grown up" thing to do (and the online community is mainly just a bunch of kids who fight for status of "not a kid" by pretending to act that way). Thus, conservative opinions snowball much easier than progressive ones (to be fair, it's also becuase there is only one status quo, but many avanues for variety, so there is less chance for unity). This is exactly the same reason why we can have only boring maps, because anytghing creative is "too imba" and leads to "abuse" (which is just varied play). PS: I apologize to everyone who is not a kid anf honestly dislikes watching/playing SHs - this is a perfectly valid opinion. But I stand by the statement that the sheer prevalence of this opinion is based on societal effects described above. I agree 100% | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
On May 07 2014 18:52 ejozl wrote: Zerg air units fly like Zeppelins, so sharp spine objects do great. Why would Spore Crawler be good vs allied units, I'd say Hydras are more intelligent=can go against what hivemind-like effect is on them and would be more prone to be hunters of essence, as seen in the HotS campaign. I respectfully disagree. Mutalisks are such attention whores; All that wing flapping for no reason.  Anyway, it's not a big deal. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3561 Posts
 arrows usually do great against dragons in rpg's | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1982 Posts
On May 07 2014 12:55 Arceus wrote: As most people have said, the sole purpose of viper is abduct collosus/tempest/occasionally tank, cloud is hardly used. Change like this will render it useless. So toward the end of HotS zerg got one mostly useless unit and one most hated unit lol It doesnt make sense that Blizz tries to fix a poorly designed unit WITHOUT touching its poor design. It's even more nonsensical that they cites a few ZvZs as the issue lol David Kim does not think its poorly designed. | ||
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Aiobhill
Germany283 Posts
On May 07 2014 09:04 GunLove wrote: About the potential Hydra vs Muta change: I'm not a fan of these very specific buffs. In the info window of the Hydra attack it might as well come to say "x bonus damage against mutalisks". I don't like the recent buff to widow mines vs shields either. Basically I don't like any of these race- or unit-specific counters, for instance the whole Ghost unit is nothing more than an anti-High Templar weapon since the snipe nerf. The thing is, the core charm of having 3 different races is that in the different matchups you have the same units, but they handle in a different way depending on the enemy race. I feel that the way of balancing the game as described above somehow negates that charm, because of this type of artificial intervention. If the core functionality of a unit changes too radically from one matchup to another, you might as well make it so that for example, in TvZ you can't make Ghosts anymore, but instead you have some new unit that somehow counters a core unit of Zerg (for instance Swarm Host), like it does in the TvP matchup. Why not have completely different unit sets per matchup? It's a slippery scale. What I'm afraid of in the end, is that this type of balancing will make the game and meta even more stale, because it is always clear what counter you have to build, because every unit is so specialized. Also I'm afraid that more and more units will become completely obsolete in certain matchups. This is a great post. Attaching more band-aids and then some band-aids to band-aids will make the game hard to play and virtually unwatchable to any non-regulars. On topic, bad suggestions both. Instead lower abduct range, delay locust respawn by two or three seconds and buff - in whatever way - hydra and/or roach to compensate till balanced. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 07 2014 17:21 xM(Z wrote: just give zergs dark swarm back. GG We have that in Starbow. Come play, it is miles more fun to play then HotS. | ||
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JohnChoi
1773 Posts
On May 07 2014 17:21 xM(Z wrote: just give zergs dark swarm back. GG thick orange cloud of awesomeness aww yissss :D | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3561 Posts
This is a great post. Attaching more band-aids and then some band-aids to band-aids will make the game hard to play and virtually unwatchable to any non-regulars. Yeah, you just end up with the WoL Voidray. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On May 07 2014 18:33 Big J wrote: As far as I remember the feedback for HotS beta was kind of like: "Warhounds are bullshit; hellbats and mines are no real units; all Terran gets is bullshit. They still have no clue about what the protoss units should look like. OMG, they are changing the oracle again. The only good additions to the game are the zerg units." Many people were quite happy with the SH in its most early days, as far as I remember. The problems only started after the beta, when the turtlemode playstyles with it got invented and when it turned out that any form of aggressive SH build just gets crushed by building the right units - which happen to be the units you build anyways against Zerg. Also it's not like it is "the swarm host is the problem". In ZvZ endgame people use SHs because drops and nydus and all that mobile play that should be good against static units is bad, in that matchup even worse. In ZvT it is being used when you enter the stage of the game where other maxed Zerg armies become laughable because Mech destroys them all, yet the Terran can still increase his army strength for another hour with more 2supply Ravens and less workers if he so pleases, and the only way to stand a chance is by trying to do free damage. ZvP... yeah right. It's totally on the SH and has nothing to do with the Protoss just sitting behind walls and canons and Colossi and Storms and crushing maxed SH-less Zerg with 160supply armies. What needs to be done to remove SHs is some combo of the following things: -) a way to trade of T1-T2 ground army for zerg (like the medivac can do for Terran bio), so that P/T turtle becomes harder -) a better transition of those T1-T2 ground units into the lategame. Instead of having worthless hydra/roach/ling supply sitting around, make those units scary again in the lategame through T3 upgrades or some form of support units (though I feel like the Viper already does that and it's not enough for as long as a roach costs the same supply as a templar) -) a normal siege unit. Something that stops every Zerg player from going like: "oh, a choke point. Time to expand 5more times and wait until the opponent runs out of money, because I will never be able to go through there." And before someone tells me I'm just biased and want buffs... nope. I'd be happy with any insufficient buff of the above, even if it makes me drop two leagues and imbalances the game for a couple of months. But it has to be more than "hohoho, go and figure how to play without SHs". Because that's what everyZerg and their swarmmother has tried. You do sound a bit biased though. When HOTS came out, Terran and Protoss were so shit, so so shit, that by comparison the SH looked in a good place. It was a "potentially" functional unit that looked relatively unique. Although, most of the Zerg positive feedback was centered around the Viper, as a micro dependent and anti death ball unit. Most of the new additions for HOTS were bad, let's not forget this. The example you give with Terran adding more power through the 2 supply Raven is not a defense for the SH but just more, IMO correct, criticism of the state of the game. Massing casters is bad for obvious reasons, SH or not. If BLs and Vipers are not working as siege and choke breaking options it is because of more terrible HOTS additions, like the Tempests or spamable Ravens. | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On May 07 2014 18:54 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Wow that abduct change would be terrible. What's left to abduct if not massive units.. only siege tanks pretty much HTs, swarm hosts, other vipers, ghosts... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27471 Posts
I can barely disagree more, see the continual push for making mech viable in terms of stylistic variance. People just don't like how Swarmhosts play and the games that come with them for the most part. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3711 Posts
On May 07 2014 18:46 Rider517 wrote: the problem of sc2 is david kim, he needs to go. User was banned for this post. As much as I agree with the fact that Blizzard needs to hire different people or actually have someone educate their employees on how RTS design works, David Kim is not even close to being the problem. David Kim's job is to balance the game. BALANCE. He does not design anything, Swarm Host were not his idea, he only has to ensure that they aren't too strong or too weak, in fact I think David Kim is part of the reason why the game is actually as good as it is despite its awful design. Blizzard needs to stop curing the symptoms and actually focus on the illness itself. Swarm Host are the issue at hand, not even swarm host but the fact that free units are soo hard to design around that they should abandon that concept rather than trying to balance the entire game around it. It's the same with forcefields. Once blizzard (and this has got to be the design team) believes that mechanic/unit x is great for the game they will never ever abandon that and when issues come up they will change everything but the unit thats causing these issues. Address swarm host. It is an issue in all three matchups and many changes have been suggested to the unit. Try those, release a bunch of test maps and see what you can do with the unit and how it impacts the game. If all of that doesn't work you can still try to fix the issue without touching SH and worst case even remove it in LOTV. All that aside, I do like the spore buff reverse, though it has little to do with SH. I do believe that buffing spores was an ok idea to fix ZvZ being only muta, however I think it was way way way over buffed. I don't think you should have to 1 hit spores to not loose at least 1 muta to them. Maybe doing what they are suggesting now to Hydras and buffing their speed on creep (to react more quickly to muta harrass and also have an easier time splitting vs blings), I honestly think that ZvZ being Muta/bling/ling vs Roach/Hydra/Festor would be way way way way way more fun to watch and play than the roach headbutting we are seeing atm (atleast in Korea). Abducting Broods into spores is an issue sure, but I don't think we'd even have one player trying to do that if you could go for something besides free units to counter SH. Plus broods are more of a thing to add when both have SH or you are so far ahead that it's hard to loose. Just change the SH's already, I don't wanna wait till LOTV comes out to see them fixed like they did with broodlord/festor. | ||
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