EPTI think warp gates and lack of micro are bigger issues than swarm hosts.
Blizzard's thoughts on Swarm Hosts - Page 26
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Highways
Australia6105 Posts
I think warp gates and lack of micro are bigger issues than swarm hosts. | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
I'm sure he knew what units exist. Might as well say that you can abduct Stalkers and marauders. Sure you can, but why on earth would you bother getting vipers for that? Besides, HTs are there to counter Vipers. Just don't make vipers and he won't get HTs... Obviously the same applies to Vipers. Why would both players get vipers to counter the opponent's vipers? Just don't get vipers then. | ||
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Frex
Finland888 Posts
No matter how hard the boy kept dreaming, his dream was always thwarted by David Kim and Dustin Browder. To this day the boy has kept playing bio with his dream chrushed. | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On May 07 2014 21:33 Frex wrote: Once there was a boy who had a dream of playing mech in TvZ without having to unsiege whenever the air unit-shooters or turtle when the underground unit-shooters entered the battlefield. No matter how hard the boy kept dreaming, his dream was always thwarted by David Kim and Dustin Browder. To this day the boy has kept playing bio with his dream chrushed. If you want to play mech.. you could do what Zero, Bisu, Hiya, Sea, Jangbi et al are doing | ||
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Nakwa
Sweden93 Posts
Make it buffed too if you want to make it worth the new cost. All. Problems. Solved. | ||
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Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
On May 07 2014 21:10 Highways wrote: Hopefully the reason why we havnt heard anything about LotV is because they are redesigning the game. I think warp gates and lack of micro are bigger issues than swarm hosts. I wouldn't get your hopes up | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 07 2014 19:58 Sapphire.lux wrote: You do sound a bit biased though. When HOTS came out, Terran and Protoss were so shit, so so shit, that by comparison the SH looked in a good place. It was a "potentially" functional unit that looked relatively unique. Although, most of the Zerg positive feedback was centered around the Viper, as a micro dependent and anti death ball unit. Most of the new additions for HOTS were bad, let's not forget this. The example you give with Terran adding more power through the 2 supply Raven is not a defense for the SH but just more, IMO correct, criticism of the state of the game. Massing casters is bad for obvious reasons, SH or not. If BLs and Vipers are not working as siege and choke breaking options it is because of more terrible HOTS additions, like the Tempests or spamable Ravens. The whole "add more casters" is rooted in their supplycosts. At the end of the day, a caster with a damage spell is hardly anything more or less than a combat unit with very low attackspeed and very high attackdamage. Yet they are not treated as such supply-balancewise, so, naturally they are the best units to max out on. Though it is definitely fixable. blizzard has done so with the ghost and the infestor when they had too powerful spells. Maybe too much, but yeah, we don't see them massed anytime a lategame happens these days. BLs are bad to break chokes, because it requires air superiority. So when you have a ground army, it's kind of careless to add BLs unless that army can keep antiair back. Which infestors and hydras can't really these days, since they can be countered pretty hard themselves by the units you need the BLs for. While when you are not relying solely on a ground army to begin with and have air superiority, it means you are playing mutalisks and you don't need to care too much for chokes, because the idea is to not attack there anyways with a fast harassment unit. Vipers usually can't break chokes, because the army is sitting behind the choke. By design, the unit is not suited for that job. It is good at defending a choke that your opponent wants to go through, but bad - sometimes even counterproductive when advancing into your own blinding clouds - at making you go through one. Sorry if I sound biased to you. I don't know how else to formulate it. At the end of the day, I don't think it is possible to point out why bullshit like SH is needed without calling the cause of it bullshit as well in some way. And I know that not every Terran or Protoss would play those "max out and keep on adding better units" styles that the SH is required against if it wasn't for requiring those styles against SHs. But that doesn't mean it is not a problem. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
Locusts cannot shoot at other locusts. Seriously guys, are you even trying?  | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 07 2014 23:20 Cascade wrote: Easy fix for SH vs SH that doesnt touch other MUs? Easy: Locusts cannot shoot at other locusts. Seriously guys, are you even trying? So instead of infinitely shooting each other, they infinitely bump into each other? #savefreeunits | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Currently you can send them half way across the map. If the range were to be reduced the SH would be more vulnerable to an attack after a wave dies or is broken through. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24236 Posts
Muta strenght led Blizzard to implement that absurd +200% damage buff against bio to spore crawlers. If mutas ability to snowball into an unmanageable flock was toned down, one could think about reverting this buff without having to buff anything against biological air -which is lame and inelegant. And, if one thinks about it just a little, it would do a lot of things all at once ; let's say, for example, that muta health regen is cancelled, toned down, or made as a hive upgrade. It would make standard spore + queen defence more viable in ZvZ and help T who struggle in the mu nowadays : even a nerfed widow mine shot would be fearsome if mutas couldn't regen this absurdly fast. This would potentially have a negative impact on PvZ though, muta corruptor play, which is already quite well figured out at the highest levels, would become marginal ; I don't think that would make heavy lategame muta switches less fearsome though, because the army required to fight mutas is so specific. All in all, I think reverting that exaggerated and impossible to justify spore buff and studying the case of muta regen would do a lot of things right in all match ups. By the way, nobody ever mentions it because it seems meaningless, but the overseer speed buff that was intended to help Z against mines and didn't quite manage to do it could be reverted too, no ? With muta regen toned down and overseer speed reverted Z would once again have to be careful with their muta flock and TvZ would maybe look once again like a mu in which T can prevail... even with a mine not as powerful as before. I may add that I'm by no means a good player, nor do I know a lot about TvZ since I play Protoss. This is wild theorycrafting and discussing. | ||
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Chewbacca.
United States3634 Posts
Now they can still be used aggressively like blizz wants, but they can't really be used to just turtle for 30min because they will run out of energy | ||
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robson1
3632 Posts
blizzard wrote: duh we don't know guys... Srsly... it seems to me like their are fishing in the dark and have no clear vision how they should tackle the problems with the game. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On May 08 2014 00:08 Larkin wrote: How about abduct doesn't work vs capital ships? So broods, tempests, carriers, mothership and BCs? Abduct makes the mothership irrelevant anyway. If they make abduct not work on tempest i see no way z can ever win against mass tempest army. To be honest i´m not sure if it is possible even with abducts :/ Without other changes i don´t think they should do any changes that affect the other MU. | ||
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Code
Canada634 Posts
On May 07 2014 23:34 Thezzy wrote: Maybe the issue is the range of the locusts due their lifespan? Currently you can send them half way across the map. If the range were to be reduced the SH would be more vulnerable to an attack after a wave dies or is broken through. Maybe a much shorter range (remove enduring locust upgrade) but make SH move a bit faster Maybe SH regenerate locusts faster while unburrowed? So you are encouraged to move them aggressively. Move in release the locusts, unburrow, and retreat - almost like how a marine stutter steps back It is more incentive to be attacking with them instead of just defending. If an army is pushing out against you and you are at their front door seiging them (like what was invisioned of the SH originally), you can get a wave of locust out, unburrow and retreat. The locusts regenerate faster while unburrowed...now burrow again, release another wave, and pull back again. With faster SH speed you can afford to re-position them. This way if you keep them in your base rather than out attacking, they will only get one or two waves before the army is at your front door, and you wont slow them down at all with the reduced locust range. If you leave them burrowed they will be less effective with the slower locust spawn too. Less set and forget and more aggression and micro. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24236 Posts
We're not talking about ways to make SH usage more micro demanding, more agressive or more entertaining. Because even if all those three conditions were fulfilled by, let's say, encouraging people to burrow/unburrow SH, if two Z players decide to go SH, even if they micro their heart out and press R, reposition SHs, press R, while planting down spores, all the viewers will see is locusts colliding into each other, like in the Stephano vs Petraeus game, and I seriously hope that no sane person would ever like to see that again. We're talking about ways to break SH stalemate situations. And I'm sorry, but spore buff has to be reverted. It was lame to the possible, it's plain impossible to explain lore wise, and it shuts down too many options in ZvZ (drops, air play). Now, if you want to avoid every ZvZ being a game of "who can go spire without dying to speedlings/banelings first", mutas can be looked at a bit and maybe toned down (which would help TvZ too), but honeslty, I wouldn't even mind mutas ZvZ since muta ling bling play usually rewarded the mechanically better player and we need more mechanics based mus. I'm not interested in seeing Huk beat Polt with a 3 gate oracle. I'm interested in seeing Zest always be one step aside of his Z opponent through clever phoenix scouting and harass, take a very late third and tear them apart with heavy harass and good compositions. | ||
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JIJI_
United States123 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24236 Posts
On May 08 2014 00:33 JIJI_ wrote: Nerf mutas and SH's (to fix zvz) and then buff zerg in the future in some other way after giving it time if they are struggling. The good thing about nerfing (not heavily !) mutas is reverting spore buff becomes possible, thus you don't have to nerf SH (which are honestly not imba neither in ZvP nor TvP, P and T have very good ways to battle them). I'm quite convinced that'd be the better solution, because the more I think about it the more I foresee broodlings colliding into broodlings from broodlords protected by spores if the abduct change was to go through. And I don't think broodlings colliding into broodlings is more entertaining than locusts spitting acid at each other. | ||
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