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On May 08 2014 02:56 whatami wrote:
There is a an extremely easy fix to this problem, do absolutely nothing else but make broodlords specifically, no other unit, but broodlords, immune to abduct. vipers abducting in pvz is necessary, just stop it as a thing in ZVZ, how hard is that?
as i said, just make biological units immune to abduct, problem solved, but nobody listens  people just like dumb discussions
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United States97274 Posts
On May 08 2014 03:50 habeck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2014 02:56 whatami wrote:
There is a an extremely easy fix to this problem, do absolutely nothing else but make broodlords specifically, no other unit, but broodlords, immune to abduct. vipers abducting in pvz is necessary, just stop it as a thing in ZVZ, how hard is that? as i said, just make biological units immune to abduct, problem solved, but nobody listens people just like dumb discussions
why biological? What's wrong with being able to abduct things like infestors or the other player's vipers?
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On May 08 2014 03:50 habeck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2014 02:56 whatami wrote:
There is a an extremely easy fix to this problem, do absolutely nothing else but make broodlords specifically, no other unit, but broodlords, immune to abduct. vipers abducting in pvz is necessary, just stop it as a thing in ZVZ, how hard is that? as i said, just make biological units immune to abduct, problem solved, but nobody listens people just like dumb discussions
Then abduct is completely useless in zvz. I dont think that is the solution. I have seen many many wonderful zvz games who abduct is the best spell AND playing without SH.
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On May 08 2014 03:33 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2014 03:02 BisuDagger wrote:On May 08 2014 02:56 whatami wrote:
There is a an extremely easy fix to this problem, do absolutely nothing else but make broodlords specifically, no other unit, but broodlords, immune to abduct. vipers abducting in pvz is necessary, just stop it as a thing in ZVZ, how hard is that? This has been discussed to death in this thread. The whole point is to eliminate nerfing a unit's ability against another unit. It makes the game harder to understand for a new user who says "wait I can abduct massive units BUT not broodlords" and wonders why there is this bias there. The rules of the game need to makes sense and breaking the standard for these rules can lead to bad things. Storm to stong on drones, half damage to drones. Fungal too weak zealots, better buff it versus zealots. These are just random pit falls a dev team will run into if they the rules of the game. Meh, first time I tried to Fungal an Ultralisk 3 years ago and it didn't work, my first thought was "oh...so Fungal doesn't root Ultras...OK, cool." And that was that. It's not that big a deal. And as for buffing/nerfing damage vs specific units, where do you think the unit classifications of light/armored/massive came from? It's a mechanic designed by RTS devs to make certain units react to certain attacks and spells in different ways. If Ultralisks get a "Frenzied" passive for CC immunity, why can't Brood Lords just have some kind of anti-abduct passive?
I have the hardest time teaching friends to play DOTA2. "This makes you immune to magic, but not all magic, these 15 spells will go through it. But it also purges stuff off of you, unless it's these 10 debuffs. Also, makes you immune stuns, except the stuns from 12 abilities....". On the other hand, the abilities in SC2 are so much more simple, which has made a lot more friends stay with SC2 than I've ever had with DOTA2, and it's because the entrance knowledge required is so much less, and so much more readily available.
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When you buff or nerf something, you have to try and foresee every consequence of the decision you make. I don't know a lot about ZvZ, and I don't think that what I'm going to describe would happen often if one made broodlords immune to abducts, but just try to imagine the following situation :
- both players play a standard opening, end up on a standard mirror 3 base economy where no one has a huge advantage heading to the lategame.
- they both decide to go brood lords.
- they plant down a lot of spores and begin to advance on the map with brood lords and the spores following them, remaining underneath so as to protect them from corruptors.
Now imagine both players reach a high BL count and begin to mass spores and spines underneath them. Congratulations, we have a new stalemate : without vipers abducts, no player will ever break the other one, and the game will painfully end in a draw because neither player will be able to destroy the static defences under the BLs. The only difference between the SH vs SH stalemate being broodlings vs broodlings instead of locusts vs locusts. I don't think we made much progress.
That's why I think we should be VERY careful with such a drastic change. A Brood Lord take on the Stephano vs Petraeus game would be nearly as painful as its SH incarnation.
I say it again : with such strong spores in a specific match-up, nothing good will ever be achieved. Revert that buff.
Edit : I guess SHs could help break the position of a BL player who would mass static d underneath. I'm not sure that's a good thing, but that's surely something to consider.
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Cant we all just accept the fact that brood lords were broken in WOL and now Sh are broken in HOTS and it is mainly because both units endlessly spawn free units that cost nothing? Atleast infested terrans were tied to infestor energy. Just get rid of the free unit bullshit zerg has and wow you have an exciting game again.
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On May 08 2014 03:14 whatami wrote:
Nah gindo, then tempest/void/mothershipcore/carrier cannot be abduct, baaad impact on pvz.
1) It would make MS not totally useless.
2) If you let someone make Temptest + Voids + MS + Carriers......Umm you deserve to lose and probably will still lose even if you have un-feedback-able Vipers
Nobody uses Abduct on Air Units unless its to Snipe MSC or BL. Making Abducts only affect ground means you still can abduct everything essential like colossi.
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On May 08 2014 04:46 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2014 03:14 whatami wrote:
Nah gindo, then tempest/void/mothershipcore/carrier cannot be abduct, baaad impact on pvz. 1) It would make MS not totally useless. 2) If you let someone make Temptest + Voids + MS + Carriers......Umm you deserve to lose and probably will still lose even if you have un-feedback-able Vipers Nobody uses Abduct on Air Units unless its to Snipe MSC or BL. Making Abducts only affect ground means you still can abduct everything essential like colossi.
I think you are out of touch qith the meta. VRs and Tempests are some of the most abducted units in the game.
And MS is pretty standard in endgame PvZ despite abduct. Yes it dies sometimes to it. So do many vipers that get fedback by cloaked templar and killed by tempest when trying.
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On May 08 2014 03:52 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2014 03:50 habeck wrote:On May 08 2014 02:56 whatami wrote:
There is a an extremely easy fix to this problem, do absolutely nothing else but make broodlords specifically, no other unit, but broodlords, immune to abduct. vipers abducting in pvz is necessary, just stop it as a thing in ZVZ, how hard is that? as i said, just make biological units immune to abduct, problem solved, but nobody listens people just like dumb discussions why biological? What's wrong with being able to abduct things like infestors or the other player's vipers?
I hate such specific balance changes. Can't abduct broodlord? Why, what makes the broodlord so special? That's why I agree can't abduct biological units is better.
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On May 08 2014 04:53 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2014 03:52 Shellshock wrote:On May 08 2014 03:50 habeck wrote:On May 08 2014 02:56 whatami wrote:
There is a an extremely easy fix to this problem, do absolutely nothing else but make broodlords specifically, no other unit, but broodlords, immune to abduct. vipers abducting in pvz is necessary, just stop it as a thing in ZVZ, how hard is that? as i said, just make biological units immune to abduct, problem solved, but nobody listens people just like dumb discussions why biological? What's wrong with being able to abduct things like infestors or the other player's vipers? I hate such specific balance changes. Can't abduct broodlord? Why, what makes the broodlord so special? That's why I agree can't abduct biological units is better. I imagine *carbot* broodlord putting a broodling in path of abduct xD. Viper would always abduct only those poor units.
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I always just wondered why instead of a timer, they don't just put broodlings HP counting down and make the upgrade increase their HP by 10 or so.
So if you host from far away, a single collusus can clear the wave with one attack. Or a hellbat/hellion. Make you move forward to actually do some damage.
Yes, it would buff them defensively after the upgrade, but make their siege weaker and make running away from them meaningful. Of course, I don't know enough about the outcomes of that change, but seems like not the worst idea.
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On May 08 2014 04:53 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2014 03:52 Shellshock wrote:On May 08 2014 03:50 habeck wrote:On May 08 2014 02:56 whatami wrote:
There is a an extremely easy fix to this problem, do absolutely nothing else but make broodlords specifically, no other unit, but broodlords, immune to abduct. vipers abducting in pvz is necessary, just stop it as a thing in ZVZ, how hard is that? as i said, just make biological units immune to abduct, problem solved, but nobody listens people just like dumb discussions why biological? What's wrong with being able to abduct things like infestors or the other player's vipers? I hate such specific balance changes. Can't abduct broodlord? Why, what makes the broodlord so special? That's why I agree can't abduct biological units is better.
But what's the logic in not being able to abduct biological units? The Viper's tongue can only attach to metal (or shields)?
Edit: Even worse; What about marines, ghosts, HT's etc?
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United States97274 Posts
On May 08 2014 05:42 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2014 04:53 FiWiFaKi wrote:On May 08 2014 03:52 Shellshock wrote:On May 08 2014 03:50 habeck wrote:On May 08 2014 02:56 whatami wrote:
There is a an extremely easy fix to this problem, do absolutely nothing else but make broodlords specifically, no other unit, but broodlords, immune to abduct. vipers abducting in pvz is necessary, just stop it as a thing in ZVZ, how hard is that? as i said, just make biological units immune to abduct, problem solved, but nobody listens people just like dumb discussions why biological? What's wrong with being able to abduct things like infestors or the other player's vipers? I hate such specific balance changes. Can't abduct broodlord? Why, what makes the broodlord so special? That's why I agree can't abduct biological units is better. But what's the logic in not being able to abduct biological units? The Viper's tongue can only attach to metal (or shields)?
You could easily come up with some thing like zerg units evolved to secrete something on their skin that makes it so the viper tongue can't stick to them or something like that
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On May 08 2014 05:43 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2014 05:42 Penev wrote:On May 08 2014 04:53 FiWiFaKi wrote:On May 08 2014 03:52 Shellshock wrote:On May 08 2014 03:50 habeck wrote:On May 08 2014 02:56 whatami wrote:
There is a an extremely easy fix to this problem, do absolutely nothing else but make broodlords specifically, no other unit, but broodlords, immune to abduct. vipers abducting in pvz is necessary, just stop it as a thing in ZVZ, how hard is that? as i said, just make biological units immune to abduct, problem solved, but nobody listens people just like dumb discussions why biological? What's wrong with being able to abduct things like infestors or the other player's vipers? I hate such specific balance changes. Can't abduct broodlord? Why, what makes the broodlord so special? That's why I agree can't abduct biological units is better. But what's the logic in not being able to abduct biological units? The Viper's tongue can only attach to metal (or shields)? You could easily come up with some thing like zerg units evolved to secrete something on their skin that makes it so the viper tongue can't stick to them or something like that
Well, that's basically what I said (and find very farfetched) but ghosts, HT's etc are biological too.
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These are both terrible suggestions and do nothing to change the SWARMHOST! For months they've had buffs and nerfes on OTHER units effected by the SWARMHOST! Maybe stop changing the game around the swarmhost, and just get rid of the thing...
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On May 08 2014 06:26 MediKing wrote:
These are both terrible suggestions and do nothing to change the SWARMHOST! For months they've had buffs and nerfes on OTHER units effected by the SWARMHOST! Maybe stop changing the game around the swarmhost, and just get rid of the thing...
For all the merit this opinion may or may not have, it's obvious a change like that would never be made without an expansion. And probably not even then. This should be obvious to anyone so no point whining about it. So changes to swarmhost or buffs to other units is the way forward.
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Norway839 Posts
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/12673098909
New topic named 'ZvZ Anti-stalemate Testing - May 7'
Thank you for your feedback everyone. After evaluating your feedback and discussing this subject more in detail, we’re currently thinking of adding these two changes to the balance test map (and extension mod):
- Spore Crawler damage decreased from 15+30bio to 15+15bio
- Hydralisk damage against air increased from 12 to 12+4bio
Please focus further discussion around the above adjustments only, and again, thank you very much.
Muta/Hydra patch. Very confusing move and post by Blizzard.
Swarm Host/Viper/Spore combo is still the ultimate even after this spore change. Maybe an extra viper can escape some spores but I don't see it changing a whole lot.
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Norway839 Posts
I wish they would just try making the Brood Lord immune to abduct ... Not change Abduct vs Massive or anything ... just make the Brood Lord immune. That would solve so much already.
The Ultralisk already has Frenzy, why can't Brood Lords have 'Air Superiority' or something?
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Dear Jens,
I understand that BL would be able to break SH stalemates, but then which Z composition would be able to break a brood lord + spores vs brood lord + spores stalemate ? If we eliminate SH from the equation but end up with broodlings wars I don't think we'd have achieved much.
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EPT
