On January 27 2014 03:34 pivor wrote: How those changes are supposted to help in tvp? Anyone else feels like each time blizz "balances" something, everything they do is make some as least as possible affecting or just booring changes to stop the qq? Protoss needs some hardcore nerfs to make tvp enjoyable, not some minor adjustments.
Ghost thingie is more effective then I first though. The preparation time from the Colossus into HT switch is lowered by quiet a bit, so you can put a little more into punishing their tech switch. The return of the ScV pull ! Now comes with a Ghost before Protoss even has a chance to get storm out. Atleast Protoss needs to play a bit safer which slows their tech a little. Not sure if I like it but at the end it gets a bit easier for Terran without changing up anything. Well and that if it makes it life Protoss winrate will drop a little since the timings are totally off.
I like it for TvT, when it is Bio vs Mech and the Bio player goes into sky terran. So easy for the Mech player now to stay pure ground.
On January 27 2014 03:34 pivor wrote: How those changes are supposted to help in tvp? Anyone else feels like each time blizz "balances" something, everything they do is make some as least as possible affecting or just booring changes to stop the qq? Protoss needs some hardcore nerfs to make tvp enjoyable, not some minor adjustments.
Yes, TvP will only ever be fun if the protoss just gets killed easily every game, we need to make sure protoss can never win in the matchup so that terran players have fun destroying them.
not that I agree with pivor but what you are describing is the feeling I have playing tvp atm.
hope you are having fun. because I dont.
GSL CODE A this season, exactly the same amount of zergs advanced as protoss. The problem isn't protoss, the problem is terran. Thats what needs to be changed. Something is wrong in the Terran midgame, what is it? Im not sure. But nerfing protoss isnt going to fix things
Not really... TvZ was balanced (10-11; btw including the 1-6 Deadalus stats!), ZvP was balanced apart from Deadalus Point (20-15; 12-12 without Deadalus Point!); Meanwhile TvP was 31-8.
The problem was only TvP, whether you say T is to weak or P too strong I don't care, but there is nothing suggesting ZvX made any problems during Code A (apart from Deadalus ofc).
exactly PvZ was balanced but TvP wasn't protoss isnt the issue, or else they would have rolled through zerg as well
By your logic, Terran is fine versus Protoss because they were fine versus Zerg, or else they would have been rolled by zerg as well.
No? That doesnt make any sense, the only imbalanced matchup was TvP
On January 27 2014 06:36 pure.Wasted wrote: I've been thinking about feasible redesigns of the Colossus that would discourage deathball play and encourage micro from the Protoss. Stuff that Blizzard might actually possibly be persuaded to go for.
Increase Colossus dps with an emphasis of burst with longer cooldowns (this is a buff). Then, change its attack shape - instead of a horizontal line perpendicular to the Colossus, it becomes a vertical line starting at the Colossus's feet that travels all the way to its target (and/or past the target). Then give it friendly fire. (this is obviously a nerf)
Using the Colossus behind an army of Zealots or Stalkers becomes suicidal, because the Colossus will melt all of them before it melts anything of the opponent's. Keeping the Colossus balled up doesn't work. On the other hand, if you micro the Colossus around the battlefield between shots, so that it's always engaging the enemy army at a flanking angle, it will do even more damage than it does now.
Other option: increase dps, change the attack to a line from the Colossus's feet that travels up to a target, give it a 1-2 second "charging" delay before the attack activates. As it "charges," a red dot appears over its target so the player knows exactly who the Colossus is aiming at. Now, if when the Colossus attacks, there is a friendly unit within the attack's trajectory, the Colossus does not attack, selects a new target, and starts charging again. If there are no friendly targets between the Colossus and the target, the attack goes through.
Again, attacking from behind an army of Zealots and Stalkers is discouraged, flanking and all kinds of battle micro are encouraged.
Thoughts?
I believe OneGoal tested something like this a while back and wasn't pleased with the results. Their consensus was that, yes, this would discourage death-balling, but it also became overpowered versus worker lines, or something of the like. Their implementation became too devastating with proper micro. I do like the idea though, and I hope something like this gets tested in the future.
The alternative I would like to test is the Colossus' original attack as shown in the alpha build - instead of a splash beam, it single-targets units down continuously for given time intervals. Shown below:
From what I've heard, the reason this was scrapped was because it somehow overlapped with the Carrier attack mechanism. I'd love to see someone test this though.
I dare say they gave up too easily, then. A Warp Prism carrying a Colossus is an investment of 500/200. More importantly, it's an investment of two Robo units' worth of build times. If you lose it even after doing econ damage, you're still very vulnerable to a bio counterattack. If you lose it without having done any econ damage, you're seriously behind.
Risk/reward. I think that's what everyone wants Protoss play to have more of.
On January 27 2014 03:34 pivor wrote: How those changes are supposted to help in tvp? Anyone else feels like each time blizz "balances" something, everything they do is make some as least as possible affecting or just booring changes to stop the qq? Protoss needs some hardcore nerfs to make tvp enjoyable, not some minor adjustments.
Yes, TvP will only ever be fun if the protoss just gets killed easily every game, we need to make sure protoss can never win in the matchup so that terran players have fun destroying them.
not that I agree with pivor but what you are describing is the feeling I have playing tvp atm.
hope you are having fun. because I dont.
GSL CODE A this season, exactly the same amount of zergs advanced as protoss. The problem isn't protoss, the problem is terran. Thats what needs to be changed. Something is wrong in the Terran midgame, what is it? Im not sure. But nerfing protoss isnt going to fix things
Not really... TvZ was balanced (10-11; btw including the 1-6 Deadalus stats!), ZvP was balanced apart from Deadalus Point (20-15; 12-12 without Deadalus Point!); Meanwhile TvP was 31-8.
The problem was only TvP, whether you say T is to weak or P too strong I don't care, but there is nothing suggesting ZvX made any problems during Code A (apart from Deadalus ofc).
exactly PvZ was balanced but TvP wasn't protoss isnt the issue, or else they would have rolled through zerg as well
By your logic, Terran is fine versus Protoss because they were fine versus Zerg, or else they would have been rolled by zerg as well.
No? That doesnt make any sense, the only imbalanced matchup was TvP
And yet you claim that Protoss doesn't need a nerf because the only imbalanced matchup is TvP (not PvZ). The reason he said this nonsensical thing is to point out how nonsensical what you said was. Not that buffing T while not touching P couldn't possibly fix the imbalance, it could, but your argument is flawed.
On January 27 2014 06:36 pure.Wasted wrote: I've been thinking about feasible redesigns of the Colossus that would discourage deathball play and encourage micro from the Protoss. Stuff that Blizzard might actually possibly be persuaded to go for.
Increase Colossus dps with an emphasis of burst with longer cooldowns (this is a buff). Then, change its attack shape - instead of a horizontal line perpendicular to the Colossus, it becomes a vertical line starting at the Colossus's feet that travels all the way to its target (and/or past the target). Then give it friendly fire. (this is obviously a nerf)
Using the Colossus behind an army of Zealots or Stalkers becomes suicidal, because the Colossus will melt all of them before it melts anything of the opponent's. Keeping the Colossus balled up doesn't work. On the other hand, if you micro the Colossus around the battlefield between shots, so that it's always engaging the enemy army at a flanking angle, it will do even more damage than it does now.
Other option: increase dps, change the attack to a line from the Colossus's feet that travels up to a target, give it a 1-2 second "charging" delay before the attack activates. As it "charges," a red dot appears over its target so the player knows exactly who the Colossus is aiming at. Now, if when the Colossus attacks, there is a friendly unit within the attack's trajectory, the Colossus does not attack, selects a new target, and starts charging again. If there are no friendly targets between the Colossus and the target, the attack goes through.
Again, attacking from behind an army of Zealots and Stalkers is discouraged, flanking and all kinds of battle micro are encouraged.
Thoughts?
I believe OneGoal tested something like this a while back and wasn't pleased with the results. Their consensus was that, yes, this would discourage death-balling, but it also became overpowered versus worker lines, or something of the like. Their implementation became too devastating with proper micro. I do like the idea though, and I hope something like this gets tested in the future.
The alternative I would like to test is the Colossus' original attack as shown in the alpha build - instead of a splash beam, it single-targets units down continuously for given time intervals. Shown below:
From what I've heard, the reason this was scrapped was because it somehow overlapped with the Carrier attack mechanism. I'd love to see someone test this though.
I dare say they gave up too easily, then. A Warp Prism carrying a Colossus is an investment of 500/200. More importantly, it's an investment of two Robo units' worth of build times. If you lose it even after doing econ damage, you're still very vulnerable to a bio counterattack. If you lose it without having done any econ damage, you're seriously behind.
Risk/reward. I think that's what everyone wants Protoss play to have more of.
On January 27 2014 03:34 pivor wrote: How those changes are supposted to help in tvp? Anyone else feels like each time blizz "balances" something, everything they do is make some as least as possible affecting or just booring changes to stop the qq? Protoss needs some hardcore nerfs to make tvp enjoyable, not some minor adjustments.
Yes, TvP will only ever be fun if the protoss just gets killed easily every game, we need to make sure protoss can never win in the matchup so that terran players have fun destroying them.
not that I agree with pivor but what you are describing is the feeling I have playing tvp atm.
hope you are having fun. because I dont.
GSL CODE A this season, exactly the same amount of zergs advanced as protoss. The problem isn't protoss, the problem is terran. Thats what needs to be changed. Something is wrong in the Terran midgame, what is it? Im not sure. But nerfing protoss isnt going to fix things
Not really... TvZ was balanced (10-11; btw including the 1-6 Deadalus stats!), ZvP was balanced apart from Deadalus Point (20-15; 12-12 without Deadalus Point!); Meanwhile TvP was 31-8.
The problem was only TvP, whether you say T is to weak or P too strong I don't care, but there is nothing suggesting ZvX made any problems during Code A (apart from Deadalus ofc).
exactly PvZ was balanced but TvP wasn't protoss isnt the issue, or else they would have rolled through zerg as well
By your logic, Terran is fine versus Protoss because they were fine versus Zerg, or else they would have been rolled by zerg as well.
No? That doesnt make any sense, the only imbalanced matchup was TvP
And yet you claim that Protoss doesn't need a nerf because the only imbalanced matchup is TvP (not PvZ). The reason he said this nonsensical thing is to point out how nonsensical what you said was. Not that buffing T while not touching P couldn't possibly fix the imbalance, it could, but your argument is flawed.
On January 27 2014 06:36 pure.Wasted wrote: I've been thinking about feasible redesigns of the Colossus that would discourage deathball play and encourage micro from the Protoss. Stuff that Blizzard might actually possibly be persuaded to go for.
Increase Colossus dps with an emphasis of burst with longer cooldowns (this is a buff). Then, change its attack shape - instead of a horizontal line perpendicular to the Colossus, it becomes a vertical line starting at the Colossus's feet that travels all the way to its target (and/or past the target). Then give it friendly fire. (this is obviously a nerf)
Using the Colossus behind an army of Zealots or Stalkers becomes suicidal, because the Colossus will melt all of them before it melts anything of the opponent's. Keeping the Colossus balled up doesn't work. On the other hand, if you micro the Colossus around the battlefield between shots, so that it's always engaging the enemy army at a flanking angle, it will do even more damage than it does now.
Other option: increase dps, change the attack to a line from the Colossus's feet that travels up to a target, give it a 1-2 second "charging" delay before the attack activates. As it "charges," a red dot appears over its target so the player knows exactly who the Colossus is aiming at. Now, if when the Colossus attacks, there is a friendly unit within the attack's trajectory, the Colossus does not attack, selects a new target, and starts charging again. If there are no friendly targets between the Colossus and the target, the attack goes through.
Again, attacking from behind an army of Zealots and Stalkers is discouraged, flanking and all kinds of battle micro are encouraged.
Thoughts?
I believe OneGoal tested something like this a while back and wasn't pleased with the results. Their consensus was that, yes, this would discourage death-balling, but it also became overpowered versus worker lines, or something of the like. Their implementation became too devastating with proper micro. I do like the idea though, and I hope something like this gets tested in the future.
The alternative I would like to test is the Colossus' original attack as shown in the alpha build - instead of a splash beam, it single-targets units down continuously for given time intervals. Shown below:
From what I've heard, the reason this was scrapped was because it somehow overlapped with the Carrier attack mechanism. I'd love to see someone test this though.
I dare say they gave up too easily, then. A Warp Prism carrying a Colossus is an investment of 500/200. More importantly, it's an investment of two Robo units' worth of build times. If you lose it even after doing econ damage, you're still very vulnerable to a bio counterattack. If you lose it without having done any econ damage, you're seriously behind.
Risk/reward. I think that's what everyone wants Protoss play to have more of.
On January 27 2014 07:50 LongShot27 wrote:
On January 27 2014 05:25 plogamer wrote:
On January 27 2014 05:20 LongShot27 wrote:
On January 27 2014 04:46 Big J wrote:
On January 27 2014 04:24 LongShot27 wrote:
On January 27 2014 03:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
On January 27 2014 03:50 Whitewing wrote:
On January 27 2014 03:34 pivor wrote: How those changes are supposted to help in tvp? Anyone else feels like each time blizz "balances" something, everything they do is make some as least as possible affecting or just booring changes to stop the qq? Protoss needs some hardcore nerfs to make tvp enjoyable, not some minor adjustments.
Yes, TvP will only ever be fun if the protoss just gets killed easily every game, we need to make sure protoss can never win in the matchup so that terran players have fun destroying them.
not that I agree with pivor but what you are describing is the feeling I have playing tvp atm.
hope you are having fun. because I dont.
GSL CODE A this season, exactly the same amount of zergs advanced as protoss. The problem isn't protoss, the problem is terran. Thats what needs to be changed. Something is wrong in the Terran midgame, what is it? Im not sure. But nerfing protoss isnt going to fix things
Not really... TvZ was balanced (10-11; btw including the 1-6 Deadalus stats!), ZvP was balanced apart from Deadalus Point (20-15; 12-12 without Deadalus Point!); Meanwhile TvP was 31-8.
The problem was only TvP, whether you say T is to weak or P too strong I don't care, but there is nothing suggesting ZvX made any problems during Code A (apart from Deadalus ofc).
exactly PvZ was balanced but TvP wasn't protoss isnt the issue, or else they would have rolled through zerg as well
By your logic, Terran is fine versus Protoss because they were fine versus Zerg, or else they would have been rolled by zerg as well.
No? That doesnt make any sense, the only imbalanced matchup was TvP
And yet you claim that Protoss doesn't need a nerf because the only imbalanced matchup is TvP (not PvZ). The reason he said this nonsensical thing is to point out how nonsensical what you said was. Not that buffing T while not touching P couldn't possibly fix the imbalance, it could, but your argument is flawed.
except it isn't?
Why do you think arguing like this is acceptable? I don't think you're helping your case out at all here.
On January 27 2014 06:36 pure.Wasted wrote: I've been thinking about feasible redesigns of the Colossus that would discourage deathball play and encourage micro from the Protoss. Stuff that Blizzard might actually possibly be persuaded to go for.
Increase Colossus dps with an emphasis of burst with longer cooldowns (this is a buff). Then, change its attack shape - instead of a horizontal line perpendicular to the Colossus, it becomes a vertical line starting at the Colossus's feet that travels all the way to its target (and/or past the target). Then give it friendly fire. (this is obviously a nerf)
Using the Colossus behind an army of Zealots or Stalkers becomes suicidal, because the Colossus will melt all of them before it melts anything of the opponent's. Keeping the Colossus balled up doesn't work. On the other hand, if you micro the Colossus around the battlefield between shots, so that it's always engaging the enemy army at a flanking angle, it will do even more damage than it does now.
Other option: increase dps, change the attack to a line from the Colossus's feet that travels up to a target, give it a 1-2 second "charging" delay before the attack activates. As it "charges," a red dot appears over its target so the player knows exactly who the Colossus is aiming at. Now, if when the Colossus attacks, there is a friendly unit within the attack's trajectory, the Colossus does not attack, selects a new target, and starts charging again. If there are no friendly targets between the Colossus and the target, the attack goes through.
Again, attacking from behind an army of Zealots and Stalkers is discouraged, flanking and all kinds of battle micro are encouraged.
Thoughts?
I believe OneGoal tested something like this a while back and wasn't pleased with the results. Their consensus was that, yes, this would discourage death-balling, but it also became overpowered versus worker lines, or something of the like. Their implementation became too devastating with proper micro. I do like the idea though, and I hope something like this gets tested in the future.
The alternative I would like to test is the Colossus' original attack as shown in the alpha build - instead of a splash beam, it single-targets units down continuously for given time intervals. Shown below:
From what I've heard, the reason this was scrapped was because it somehow overlapped with the Carrier attack mechanism. I'd love to see someone test this though.
I dare say they gave up too easily, then. A Warp Prism carrying a Colossus is an investment of 500/200. More importantly, it's an investment of two Robo units' worth of build times. If you lose it even after doing econ damage, you're still very vulnerable to a bio counterattack. If you lose it without having done any econ damage, you're seriously behind.
Risk/reward. I think that's what everyone wants Protoss play to have more of.
On January 27 2014 07:50 LongShot27 wrote:
On January 27 2014 05:25 plogamer wrote:
On January 27 2014 05:20 LongShot27 wrote:
On January 27 2014 04:46 Big J wrote:
On January 27 2014 04:24 LongShot27 wrote:
On January 27 2014 03:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
On January 27 2014 03:50 Whitewing wrote: [quote]
Yes, TvP will only ever be fun if the protoss just gets killed easily every game, we need to make sure protoss can never win in the matchup so that terran players have fun destroying them.
not that I agree with pivor but what you are describing is the feeling I have playing tvp atm.
hope you are having fun. because I dont.
GSL CODE A this season, exactly the same amount of zergs advanced as protoss. The problem isn't protoss, the problem is terran. Thats what needs to be changed. Something is wrong in the Terran midgame, what is it? Im not sure. But nerfing protoss isnt going to fix things
Not really... TvZ was balanced (10-11; btw including the 1-6 Deadalus stats!), ZvP was balanced apart from Deadalus Point (20-15; 12-12 without Deadalus Point!); Meanwhile TvP was 31-8.
The problem was only TvP, whether you say T is to weak or P too strong I don't care, but there is nothing suggesting ZvX made any problems during Code A (apart from Deadalus ofc).
exactly PvZ was balanced but TvP wasn't protoss isnt the issue, or else they would have rolled through zerg as well
By your logic, Terran is fine versus Protoss because they were fine versus Zerg, or else they would have been rolled by zerg as well.
No? That doesnt make any sense, the only imbalanced matchup was TvP
And yet you claim that Protoss doesn't need a nerf because the only imbalanced matchup is TvP (not PvZ). The reason he said this nonsensical thing is to point out how nonsensical what you said was. Not that buffing T while not touching P couldn't possibly fix the imbalance, it could, but your argument is flawed.
except it isn't?
Why do you think arguing like this is acceptable? I don't think you're helping your case out at all here.
Because the guy just came at him flinging shit?
TvZ and PvZ are both fine, but TvP is a little off, so some sort of tweak is needed. NOT a buff to T, and NOT a nerf to P (necessarily), but a change that maintains overall balance while improving that specific matchup.
On January 27 2014 06:36 pure.Wasted wrote: I've been thinking about feasible redesigns of the Colossus that would discourage deathball play and encourage micro from the Protoss. Stuff that Blizzard might actually possibly be persuaded to go for.
Increase Colossus dps with an emphasis of burst with longer cooldowns (this is a buff). Then, change its attack shape - instead of a horizontal line perpendicular to the Colossus, it becomes a vertical line starting at the Colossus's feet that travels all the way to its target (and/or past the target). Then give it friendly fire. (this is obviously a nerf)
Using the Colossus behind an army of Zealots or Stalkers becomes suicidal, because the Colossus will melt all of them before it melts anything of the opponent's. Keeping the Colossus balled up doesn't work. On the other hand, if you micro the Colossus around the battlefield between shots, so that it's always engaging the enemy army at a flanking angle, it will do even more damage than it does now.
Other option: increase dps, change the attack to a line from the Colossus's feet that travels up to a target, give it a 1-2 second "charging" delay before the attack activates. As it "charges," a red dot appears over its target so the player knows exactly who the Colossus is aiming at. Now, if when the Colossus attacks, there is a friendly unit within the attack's trajectory, the Colossus does not attack, selects a new target, and starts charging again. If there are no friendly targets between the Colossus and the target, the attack goes through.
Again, attacking from behind an army of Zealots and Stalkers is discouraged, flanking and all kinds of battle micro are encouraged.
Thoughts?
I believe OneGoal tested something like this a while back and wasn't pleased with the results. Their consensus was that, yes, this would discourage death-balling, but it also became overpowered versus worker lines, or something of the like. Their implementation became too devastating with proper micro. I do like the idea though, and I hope something like this gets tested in the future.
The alternative I would like to test is the Colossus' original attack as shown in the alpha build - instead of a splash beam, it single-targets units down continuously for given time intervals. Shown below:
From what I've heard, the reason this was scrapped was because it somehow overlapped with the Carrier attack mechanism. I'd love to see someone test this though.
I dare say they gave up too easily, then. A Warp Prism carrying a Colossus is an investment of 500/200. More importantly, it's an investment of two Robo units' worth of build times. If you lose it even after doing econ damage, you're still very vulnerable to a bio counterattack. If you lose it without having done any econ damage, you're seriously behind.
Risk/reward. I think that's what everyone wants Protoss play to have more of.
On January 27 2014 07:50 LongShot27 wrote:
On January 27 2014 05:25 plogamer wrote:
On January 27 2014 05:20 LongShot27 wrote:
On January 27 2014 04:46 Big J wrote:
On January 27 2014 04:24 LongShot27 wrote:
On January 27 2014 03:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: [quote] not that I agree with pivor but what you are describing is the feeling I have playing tvp atm.
hope you are having fun. because I dont.
GSL CODE A this season, exactly the same amount of zergs advanced as protoss. The problem isn't protoss, the problem is terran. Thats what needs to be changed. Something is wrong in the Terran midgame, what is it? Im not sure. But nerfing protoss isnt going to fix things
Not really... TvZ was balanced (10-11; btw including the 1-6 Deadalus stats!), ZvP was balanced apart from Deadalus Point (20-15; 12-12 without Deadalus Point!); Meanwhile TvP was 31-8.
The problem was only TvP, whether you say T is to weak or P too strong I don't care, but there is nothing suggesting ZvX made any problems during Code A (apart from Deadalus ofc).
exactly PvZ was balanced but TvP wasn't protoss isnt the issue, or else they would have rolled through zerg as well
By your logic, Terran is fine versus Protoss because they were fine versus Zerg, or else they would have been rolled by zerg as well.
No? That doesnt make any sense, the only imbalanced matchup was TvP
And yet you claim that Protoss doesn't need a nerf because the only imbalanced matchup is TvP (not PvZ). The reason he said this nonsensical thing is to point out how nonsensical what you said was. Not that buffing T while not touching P couldn't possibly fix the imbalance, it could, but your argument is flawed.
except it isn't?
Why do you think arguing like this is acceptable? I don't think you're helping your case out at all here.
Because the guy just came at him flinging shit?
TvZ and PvZ are both fine, but TvP is a little off, so some sort of tweak is needed. NOT a buff to T, and NOT a nerf to P (necessarily), but a change that maintains overall balance while improving that specific matchup.
TvP isn't "a little" off and a lot of changes are needed, but that is neither here nor there. Read the discussion, pay attention to the words. What LongShot said makes absolutely zero sense.
First, he uses the fact that PvZ is fine to "prove" that Protoss doesn't need a nerf.
Then, he disagrees with another poster who says that the corollary to that is, because TvZ is fine, we have also proven that Terran doesn't need a buff. (Therefore no changes are needed at all!)
You can't have that both ways. I'd say "logic 101" but that's an insult to intro to logic courses everywhere.
It's not slinging shit to point out that the words someone says don't mean what he thinks they mean.
On January 27 2014 03:34 pivor wrote: How those changes are supposted to help in tvp? Anyone else feels like each time blizz "balances" something, everything they do is make some as least as possible affecting or just booring changes to stop the qq? Protoss needs some hardcore nerfs to make tvp enjoyable, not some minor adjustments.
Broodlord/Infestor needed hardcore nerfs. Not this. Don't grossly exaggerate the issue. What would you propose anyways?
pfff... Broodlord/Infestor produced very similar winrates in ZvT to the last months of TvP.
Um yea BS. The lowest point in Broodlord/Infestor(according to Aligulac, it's much easier to track than the community made graphs was 43.3 percent winrate for Terran in January 2013. The lowest point for PvT in its current state was 54.87 in Protoss favor in November. That number feel three percent in December.
yeah, and no race ever had 79,5% winrate in GSL before = current PvT winrate. (worst point in BL/Infestor ZvT was like 65%) no race was ever as badly represented in GSL as Terran is now, despite TvZ producing pretty balanced winrates. Like Protoss alone is stomping Terran harder than Terran and Zerg did with Protoss in GSL seasons when both of those races had quite high vP winrates.
Sorry, those BL/Infestor whines these days are hugely exaggerated. It was very bad. But the way Protoss in the last months (yes, less than 8months of BL/Infestor ZvT dominance) has dominated Terran isn't far off. And BL/Infestor in ZvT would have been easily fixable with a reasonable Infestornerf, but it didn't need "hardcore nerfs". Not to mention that such would have probably screwed Zerg in WoL ZvP.
Did you even play WoL? Current state of PvT is nowhere close to as bad as infestor was. No pro is screaming "imba imba imba" in PvT, in the mist of a promatch(JYP). It was literally allin or leave if you don't do crippling damage PvZ WoL. Maru does fine, no protoss was doing fine in PvZ at end of WoL. PvT is slightly p favored, at least you have a chance to outplay your opponent.
The ghost change only affects a very temporarily timing in the match up. All it does is offset 150/150 and the research time. In the grand scheme of things that's nothing. Strange how Terran struggles and Protoss and Zerg are getting the better buffs.
I wish pros would post in these threads about the current balance / unit design. They seem so hush hush unless its in an interview or something.
I just want to know if Blizzard is actually hearing from them, and WHAT they are hearing from them.
On January 27 2014 03:34 pivor wrote: How those changes are supposted to help in tvp? Anyone else feels like each time blizz "balances" something, everything they do is make some as least as possible affecting or just booring changes to stop the qq? Protoss needs some hardcore nerfs to make tvp enjoyable, not some minor adjustments.
Broodlord/Infestor needed hardcore nerfs. Not this. Don't grossly exaggerate the issue. What would you propose anyways?
pfff... Broodlord/Infestor produced very similar winrates in ZvT to the last months of TvP.
Um yea BS. The lowest point in Broodlord/Infestor(according to Aligulac, it's much easier to track than the community made graphs was 43.3 percent winrate for Terran in January 2013. The lowest point for PvT in its current state was 54.87 in Protoss favor in November. That number feel three percent in December.
yeah, and no race ever had 79,5% winrate in GSL before = current PvT winrate. (worst point in BL/Infestor ZvT was like 65%) no race was ever as badly represented in GSL as Terran is now, despite TvZ producing pretty balanced winrates. Like Protoss alone is stomping Terran harder than Terran and Zerg did with Protoss in GSL seasons when both of those races had quite high vP winrates.
Sorry, those BL/Infestor whines these days are hugely exaggerated. It was very bad. But the way Protoss in the last months (yes, less than 8months of BL/Infestor ZvT dominance) has dominated Terran isn't far off. And BL/Infestor in ZvT would have been easily fixable with a reasonable Infestornerf, but it didn't need "hardcore nerfs". Not to mention that such would have probably screwed Zerg in WoL ZvP.
Did you even play WoL? Current state of PvT is nowhere close to as bad as infestor was. No pro is screaming "imba imba imba" in PvT, in the mist of a promatch(JYP). It was literally allin or leave if you don't do crippling damage PvZ WoL. Maru does fine, no protoss was doing fine in PvZ at end of WoL. PvT is slightly p favored, at least you have a chance to outplay your opponent.
That is a bit biased. We could also argue that at least P's could go for 2 base all-in which T cannot do now. As for outplay, P's could land the money vortex to win as well.
Not saying PvZ wasn't bad at the end of WoL, but you still had PartinG (WCG, WCS 2012 version) and Rain do well. Even 2 protosses made Ro8 in the last WoL GSL... Which is likely more than terrans in Ro8 this season.
On January 27 2014 03:34 pivor wrote: How those changes are supposted to help in tvp? Anyone else feels like each time blizz "balances" something, everything they do is make some as least as possible affecting or just booring changes to stop the qq? Protoss needs some hardcore nerfs to make tvp enjoyable, not some minor adjustments.
Broodlord/Infestor needed hardcore nerfs. Not this. Don't grossly exaggerate the issue. What would you propose anyways?
pfff... Broodlord/Infestor produced very similar winrates in ZvT to the last months of TvP.
Um yea BS. The lowest point in Broodlord/Infestor(according to Aligulac, it's much easier to track than the community made graphs was 43.3 percent winrate for Terran in January 2013. The lowest point for PvT in its current state was 54.87 in Protoss favor in November. That number feel three percent in December.
yeah, and no race ever had 79,5% winrate in GSL before = current PvT winrate. (worst point in BL/Infestor ZvT was like 65%) no race was ever as badly represented in GSL as Terran is now, despite TvZ producing pretty balanced winrates. Like Protoss alone is stomping Terran harder than Terran and Zerg did with Protoss in GSL seasons when both of those races had quite high vP winrates.
Sorry, those BL/Infestor whines these days are hugely exaggerated. It was very bad. But the way Protoss in the last months (yes, less than 8months of BL/Infestor ZvT dominance) has dominated Terran isn't far off. And BL/Infestor in ZvT would have been easily fixable with a reasonable Infestornerf, but it didn't need "hardcore nerfs". Not to mention that such would have probably screwed Zerg in WoL ZvP.
Did you even play WoL? Current state of PvT is nowhere close to as bad as infestor was. No pro is screaming "imba imba imba" in PvT, in the mist of a promatch(JYP). It was literally allin or leave if you don't do crippling damage PvZ WoL. Maru does fine, no protoss was doing fine in PvZ at end of WoL. PvT is slightly p favored, at least you have a chance to outplay your opponent.
That is a bit biased. We could also argue that at least P's could go for 2 base all-in which T cannot do now. As for outplay, P's could land the money vortex to win as well.
Not saying PvZ wasn't bad at the end of WoL, but you still had PartinG (WCG, WCS 2012 version) and Rain do well. Even 2 protosses made Ro8 in the last WoL GSL... Which is likely more than terrans in Ro8 this season.
Honestly Terran isn't in a horrible spot vP at the moment, aside from a really silly asymmetrical early game which favors Protoss heavily simply because Protoss has so many options (which all require very different responses from the Terran) and Terran so few (none of which require an out of the ordinary response from Protoss), the matchup is actually quite balanced in the mid / late game, maybe even slightly Terran favored at the pro level with top notch control. As long as you can scout properly in the early game (which is by no means garunteed I admit, theres always a chance the Terran player can lose simply by misreading / not scouting what Protoss is doing despite knowing something is up), you have the tools to deal with it and once you get past that the matchup is actually quite good.
Brood Lord Infestor was definitely worse than this, Terran knew exactly what Zerg was going to do every game and still couldn't stop it, the only way to win vs it was to kill or do significant damage to them before they got it and Zerg knew that too.
Otherwise, I would definitely say TvP is more frustrating as a matchup because you can feel seriously helpless when you lose, scout that Twilight being chronoboosted? Too bad your opponent only made 5 stalkers and teched up to 3 base chargelot storm behind it, now those 4 bunkers you had to make on Heavy Rain and your delayed tech (Which you didn't have a choice about, because if your opponent had committed to a blink all-in you would have died) mean you dont have a good chance of getting back into the game. The thing is, if you had been able to make that read you would have been fine (and players like Maru have shown that's it's definitely possible).
On January 27 2014 03:34 pivor wrote: How those changes are supposted to help in tvp? Anyone else feels like each time blizz "balances" something, everything they do is make some as least as possible affecting or just booring changes to stop the qq? Protoss needs some hardcore nerfs to make tvp enjoyable, not some minor adjustments.
Broodlord/Infestor needed hardcore nerfs. Not this. Don't grossly exaggerate the issue. What would you propose anyways?
pfff... Broodlord/Infestor produced very similar winrates in ZvT to the last months of TvP.
Um yea BS. The lowest point in Broodlord/Infestor(according to Aligulac, it's much easier to track than the community made graphs was 43.3 percent winrate for Terran in January 2013. The lowest point for PvT in its current state was 54.87 in Protoss favor in November. That number feel three percent in December.
yeah, and no race ever had 79,5% winrate in GSL before = current PvT winrate. (worst point in BL/Infestor ZvT was like 65%) no race was ever as badly represented in GSL as Terran is now, despite TvZ producing pretty balanced winrates. Like Protoss alone is stomping Terran harder than Terran and Zerg did with Protoss in GSL seasons when both of those races had quite high vP winrates.
Sorry, those BL/Infestor whines these days are hugely exaggerated. It was very bad. But the way Protoss in the last months (yes, less than 8months of BL/Infestor ZvT dominance) has dominated Terran isn't far off. And BL/Infestor in ZvT would have been easily fixable with a reasonable Infestornerf, but it didn't need "hardcore nerfs". Not to mention that such would have probably screwed Zerg in WoL ZvP.
Did you even play WoL? Current state of PvT is nowhere close to as bad as infestor was. No pro is screaming "imba imba imba" in PvT, in the mist of a promatch(JYP). It was literally allin or leave if you don't do crippling damage PvZ WoL. Maru does fine, no protoss was doing fine in PvZ at end of WoL. PvT is slightly p favored, at least you have a chance to outplay your opponent.
That is a bit biased. We could also argue that at least P's could go for 2 base all-in which T cannot do now. As for outplay, P's could land the money vortex to win as well.
Not saying PvZ wasn't bad at the end of WoL, but you still had PartinG (WCG, WCS 2012 version) and Rain do well. Even 2 protosses made Ro8 in the last WoL GSL... Which is likely more than terrans in Ro8 this season.
Honestly Terran isn't in a horrible spot vP at the moment, aside from a really silly asymmetrical early game which favors Protoss heavily simply because Protoss has so many options (which all require very different responses from the Terran) and Terran so few (none of which require an out of the ordinary response from Protoss), the matchup is actually quite balanced in the mid / late game, maybe even slightly Terran favored at the pro level with top notch control. As long as you can scout properly in the early game (which is by no means garunteed I admit, theres always a chance the Terran player can lose simply by misreading / not scouting what Protoss is doing despite knowing something is up), you have the tools to deal with it and once you get past that the matchup is actually quite good.
Brood Lord Infestor was definitely worse than this, Terran knew exactly what Zerg was going to do every game and still couldn't stop it, the only way to win vs it was to kill or do significant damage to them before they got it and Zerg knew that too.
Otherwise, I would definitely say TvP is more frustrating as a matchup because you can feel seriously helpless when you lose, scout that Twilight being chronoboosted? Too bad your opponent only made 5 stalkers and teched up to 3 base chargelot storm behind it, now those 4 bunkers you had to make on Heavy Rain and your delayed tech (Which you didn't have a choice about, because if your opponent had committed to a blink all-in you would have died) mean you dont have a good chance of getting back into the game. The thing is, if you had been able to make that read you would have been fine (and players like Maru have shown that's it's definitely possible).
I for one very much prefer broodlord infestors because you have different timings and style to deal with it. you can do pure bio like mkp does, you can do a bomber 2-2 timing 3 base all in, you can play mech on some maps, open up with some bfhellion runby and get up to raven. The problem with TvP is first, protoss early game aggressions, then even getting into mid game, you have a smaller timing widow to do damage while also easier for protoss to defend. You always feel like you are playing from behind as Terran in TvP and the gap only increases as the game goes.
On January 27 2014 03:34 pivor wrote: How those changes are supposted to help in tvp? Anyone else feels like each time blizz "balances" something, everything they do is make some as least as possible affecting or just booring changes to stop the qq? Protoss needs some hardcore nerfs to make tvp enjoyable, not some minor adjustments.
Broodlord/Infestor needed hardcore nerfs. Not this. Don't grossly exaggerate the issue. What would you propose anyways?
pfff... Broodlord/Infestor produced very similar winrates in ZvT to the last months of TvP.
Um yea BS. The lowest point in Broodlord/Infestor(according to Aligulac, it's much easier to track than the community made graphs was 43.3 percent winrate for Terran in January 2013. The lowest point for PvT in its current state was 54.87 in Protoss favor in November. That number feel three percent in December.
yeah, and no race ever had 79,5% winrate in GSL before = current PvT winrate. (worst point in BL/Infestor ZvT was like 65%) no race was ever as badly represented in GSL as Terran is now, despite TvZ producing pretty balanced winrates. Like Protoss alone is stomping Terran harder than Terran and Zerg did with Protoss in GSL seasons when both of those races had quite high vP winrates.
Sorry, those BL/Infestor whines these days are hugely exaggerated. It was very bad. But the way Protoss in the last months (yes, less than 8months of BL/Infestor ZvT dominance) has dominated Terran isn't far off. And BL/Infestor in ZvT would have been easily fixable with a reasonable Infestornerf, but it didn't need "hardcore nerfs". Not to mention that such would have probably screwed Zerg in WoL ZvP.
Did you even play WoL? Current state of PvT is nowhere close to as bad as infestor was. No pro is screaming "imba imba imba" in PvT, in the mist of a promatch(JYP). It was literally allin or leave if you don't do crippling damage PvZ WoL. Maru does fine, no protoss was doing fine in PvZ at end of WoL. PvT is slightly p favored, at least you have a chance to outplay your opponent.
That is a bit biased. We could also argue that at least P's could go for 2 base all-in which T cannot do now. As for outplay, P's could land the money vortex to win as well.
Not saying PvZ wasn't bad at the end of WoL, but you still had PartinG (WCG, WCS 2012 version) and Rain do well. Even 2 protosses made Ro8 in the last WoL GSL... Which is likely more than terrans in Ro8 this season.
Honestly Terran isn't in a horrible spot vP at the moment, aside from a really silly asymmetrical early game which favors Protoss heavily simply because Protoss has so many options (which all require very different responses from the Terran) and Terran so few (none of which require an out of the ordinary response from Protoss), the matchup is actually quite balanced in the mid / late game, maybe even slightly Terran favored at the pro level with top notch control. As long as you can scout properly in the early game (which is by no means garunteed I admit, theres always a chance the Terran player can lose simply by misreading / not scouting what Protoss is doing despite knowing something is up), you have the tools to deal with it and once you get past that the matchup is actually quite good.
Brood Lord Infestor was definitely worse than this, Terran knew exactly what Zerg was going to do every game and still couldn't stop it, the only way to win vs it was to kill or do significant damage to them before they got it and Zerg knew that too.
Otherwise, I would definitely say TvP is more frustrating as a matchup because you can feel seriously helpless when you lose, scout that Twilight being chronoboosted? Too bad your opponent only made 5 stalkers and teched up to 3 base chargelot storm behind it, now those 4 bunkers you had to make on Heavy Rain and your delayed tech (Which you didn't have a choice about, because if your opponent had committed to a blink all-in you would have died) mean you dont have a good chance of getting back into the game. The thing is, if you had been able to make that read you would have been fine (and players like Maru have shown that's it's definitely possible).
I for one very much prefer broodlord infestors because you have different timings and style to deal with it. you can do pure bio like mkp does, you can do a bomber 2-2 timing 3 base all in, you can play mech on some maps, open up with some bfhellion runby and get up to raven. The problem with TvP is first, protoss early game aggressions, then even getting into mid game, you have a smaller timing widow to do damage while also easier for protoss to defend. You always feel like you are playing from behind as Terran in TvP and the gap only increases as the game goes.
You actually make a very good point about having choices in TvZ, TvP is so much more frustrating because you make no choices in the early game, you only react to what your opponent is doing, and even if you react perfectly your reward is usually to play a macro game which can be very frustrating especially in diamond-mid/high masters where the control is much easier for Protoss. But I think the balance is better overall despite this, because if you do scout and react you still have a very good chance to win, all of the tools are available they're just hard to use. There was no answer to BL / Infestor, if they got there you died.
On January 27 2014 03:34 pivor wrote: How those changes are supposted to help in tvp? Anyone else feels like each time blizz "balances" something, everything they do is make some as least as possible affecting or just booring changes to stop the qq? Protoss needs some hardcore nerfs to make tvp enjoyable, not some minor adjustments.
Broodlord/Infestor needed hardcore nerfs. Not this. Don't grossly exaggerate the issue. What would you propose anyways?
pfff... Broodlord/Infestor produced very similar winrates in ZvT to the last months of TvP.
Um yea BS. The lowest point in Broodlord/Infestor(according to Aligulac, it's much easier to track than the community made graphs was 43.3 percent winrate for Terran in January 2013. The lowest point for PvT in its current state was 54.87 in Protoss favor in November. That number feel three percent in December.
yeah, and no race ever had 79,5% winrate in GSL before = current PvT winrate. (worst point in BL/Infestor ZvT was like 65%) no race was ever as badly represented in GSL as Terran is now, despite TvZ producing pretty balanced winrates. Like Protoss alone is stomping Terran harder than Terran and Zerg did with Protoss in GSL seasons when both of those races had quite high vP winrates.
Sorry, those BL/Infestor whines these days are hugely exaggerated. It was very bad. But the way Protoss in the last months (yes, less than 8months of BL/Infestor ZvT dominance) has dominated Terran isn't far off. And BL/Infestor in ZvT would have been easily fixable with a reasonable Infestornerf, but it didn't need "hardcore nerfs". Not to mention that such would have probably screwed Zerg in WoL ZvP.
Did you even play WoL? Current state of PvT is nowhere close to as bad as infestor was. No pro is screaming "imba imba imba" in PvT, in the mist of a promatch(JYP). It was literally allin or leave if you don't do crippling damage PvZ WoL. Maru does fine, no protoss was doing fine in PvZ at end of WoL. PvT is slightly p favored, at least you have a chance to outplay your opponent.
Just some random facts to interrupt the incessant plight of the diamond/master Terran. Upcoming Aligulac top 10 has six (!) Terrans and four Protoss. Intriguingly for three of these four Protoss 'vs Terran' is a subpar matchup. Only exception is sOs, who has a vT rating of 1983 and an overall rating of 1976.
Looking at these results and seeing the balance ideas of this map is most bizarre. Masters Level players of one race being unhappy and admittedly underepresented is a game design issue, not a balance issue.
On January 27 2014 15:17 ChoDing wrote: imma just wait till they patch no more.
seriously let the fucking PROS figure the meta out jesus
Figure what out? In TvP you can only open one way right now. And that's getting 3 CCs if you don't want to die to a potential blink stalker all in or Oracles. In WOL, you were able to push out once you had Medivacs and apply some pressure before Protoss got their deathball going. Now you can't anymore because they will most likely have storm. In order to play TvP right now, you need to have the skills of Taeja and Maru in order to win the late game.
Honestly speaking, I feel TvP hasn't changed at all since WOL if you can survive the early game. Would be great if someone can point out what's changed for TvP past the early to mid game stages of the match up.
On January 27 2014 15:17 ChoDing wrote: imma just wait till they patch no more.
seriously let the fucking PROS figure the meta out jesus
Figure what out? In TvP you can only open one way right now. And that's getting 3 CCs if you don't want to die to a potential blink stalker all in or Oracles. In WOL, you were able to push out once you had Medivacs and apply some pressure before Protoss got their deathball going. Now you can't anymore because they will most likely have storm. In order to play TvP right now, you need to have the skills of Taeja and Maru in order to win the late game.
Honestly speaking, I feel TvP hasn't changed at all since WOL if you can survive the early game. Would be great if someone can point out what's changed for TvP past the early to mid game stages of the match up.
You mean 3 rax rather than 3CC? 3CC is begging to be killed by just about any all-in, and (from what I've seen) the most successful TvP players use maurader heavy 5 rax aggression before 3rd CC.
Terran has turbovacs and can use widow mines in mid game (kinda situational but some players seem to be having success with this) and hellbats in mid-late game (although this is very time consuming / expensive to transition into so most players dont bother), Protoss has Tempest to help them force engagements on their terms and MsC which has tons of utility (Time Warp is an army killer, Photon Overcharge ability helps vs drops and mid game pushes, Recall has lots of situational uses), also if they open oracle and retain it (which most do since the speed buff) it can be very functional in mid-late game for scouting opponent's army movements with revelation.
But yeah, for the most part its very similar, moreso than any other matchup. Only situational units have really been added or changed except for MsC and Turbovac.
On January 27 2014 15:58 Aiobhill wrote: Just some random facts to interrupt the incessant plight of the diamond/master Terran. Upcoming Aligulac top 10 has six (!) Terrans and four Protoss. Intriguingly for three of these four Protoss 'vs Terran' is a subpar matchup. Only exception is sOs, who has a vT rating of 1983 and an overall rating of 1976.
Looking at these results and seeing the balance ideas of this map is most bizarre. Masters Level players of one race being unhappy and admittedly underepresented is a game design issue, not a balance issue.
any ranking that doesn't have Maru in it's top 10 is a pretty poor ranking system
EPT
