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On January 17 2014 00:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 00:46 NukeD wrote:On January 17 2014 00:10 Plansix wrote:On January 16 2014 23:57 Heartland wrote:
The chances for Starbow to get anywhere are probably related to how much people actually like the mod, and how much people are using it as a chance to bitch about sc2. If it's the latter then it's probably not going to make it very far. Agreed. The mod needs to stand on it's own, rather the be a place where people can just take shots at SC2 because they know they are in front of a friendly audience that will agree with them. How do you like the mod so far? It's good so far. Science vessels are pretty dumb when it shits all over your army with unremovable AOE damage and some of the anti air units are a little lack luster. But their is room to grow. Early scouting seems a bit rough for Protoss too. But this is just and friend and I fucking around. Still, i don't like that science vessel.
Yes I agree about irradiate. My main grief is still the pathing tho. Also zerg seems to be weak aerly to mid game vs Terran in my extremely limited experience.
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On January 17 2014 01:24 purakushi wrote:
@Hider, does irradiate (splash) stack? It seems like it does. It did in BW, but that may be too strong for smartcast.
On that note, what's the update on possibly adding no-smartcast? (IdrA wants it  )
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Also, I said this in the other thread: if irradiate is allowed to stack that makes it more powerful, but that's a justification for removing smartcast. You could even say the same thing for psionic storm, I think if it's allowed to stack that's probably balanced if it comes with smartcast removal?
Alternatively, irradiate can have a much lower cast range so that the science vessel is more vulnerable to scourge.
I think generally speaking it's bad to have detection units that are too available, since scan is such a nice mechanic for detection already as there is opportunity cost instead of omnipresent detection units that makes all burrow/cloak strategies pointless past a certain point.
On January 17 2014 01:27 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 00:54 Plansix wrote:On January 17 2014 00:46 NukeD wrote:On January 17 2014 00:10 Plansix wrote:On January 16 2014 23:57 Heartland wrote:
The chances for Starbow to get anywhere are probably related to how much people actually like the mod, and how much people are using it as a chance to bitch about sc2. If it's the latter then it's probably not going to make it very far. Agreed. The mod needs to stand on it's own, rather the be a place where people can just take shots at SC2 because they know they are in front of a friendly audience that will agree with them. How do you like the mod so far? It's good so far. Science vessels are pretty dumb when it shits all over your army with unremovable AOE damage and some of the anti air units are a little lack luster. But their is room to grow. Early scouting seems a bit rough for Protoss too. But this is just and friend and I fucking around. Still, i don't like that science vessel. My main grief is still the pathing tho.
Yeah, but it's the same thing as with limited unit selection: no matter your opinion about it, it's not possibly in the game's engine, so at what point does it cease being productive to discuss it? I think it's more sensible to simply accept it and balance the game around these fundamentals (which is perfectly possible, see ZvT in SC2).
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You can dodge psy storm once cast and the caster is a ground unit that's slow like dirt. The SV is an unblock able flying unit that does nothing but build up energy and then shit all over the army. And if the damage stacks, the Terran just gets more SVs, cause why not?
Basically it's like fungle that just fucking kills you instead of rooting you. And the infestor can fly too.
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You could make the case that it's too early to know if there is some balance or not and that the meta has to develop. Perhaps people will learn how to spread or protect important units.
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I would be careful to take balance feedback from forums like these as most people posting have no clue what they are talking about. I just think you should strive to make this game more exciting(slower battles, more micro, reavers shots etc) and APM intensive(so better players can shine) as those were two areas that I felt sc2 really lacked in.
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The meta development will definitely solve many of these issues over time. That being said, I am worried about things like Dark Swarm and Irradiate being as strong as they are with Smartcast. Watching a terran irradiate anything that costs gas in 5-6 seconds, or seeing how Sasquatch carpeted QCX's entire army with DS makes a little concerned.
These spells could be as powerful as they were in BW because the UI prevented spamming to a large extent. I really do think one or the other will have to give, either smartcast, or some nerfs to the really powerful, game-changing spells.
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On January 17 2014 01:42 Killcani wrote:
I would be careful to take balance feedback from forums like these as most people posting have no clue what they are talking about. I just think you should strive to make this game more exciting(slower battles, more micro, reavers shots etc) and APM intensive(so better players can shine) as those were two areas that I felt sc2 really lacked in.
apm says who is better player. lol.
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On January 17 2014 01:33 Plansix wrote:
You can dodge psy storm once cast and the caster is a ground unit that's slow like dirt. The SV is an unblock able flying unit that does nothing but build up energy and then !@#$%^&* all over the army. And if the damage stacks, the Terran just gets more SVs, cause why not?
Basically it's like fungle that just fucking kills you instead of rooting you. And the infestor can fly too.
I think the issue here is that the SV is basically good vs everything. It rapes Mutalisks, its great vs Lurkers, Defiler and Viper and pretty decent vs Ultralisks. So you always want to get them. While it is a neccesity that its great vs Mutalisks (would be impossible to balance TvZ otherwise), it could definitely need some type of change in one way.
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Irradiate is way too strong as is.
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On January 17 2014 01:35 Heartland wrote:
You could make the case that it's too early to know if there is some balance or not and that the meta has to develop. Perhaps people will learn how to spread or protect important units.
Yeah, it's hardly like science vessels are irredeemably too powerful. In Brood War there were strategic ways to utilize them that depended on knowledge of your opponent's army movements: the location of his tech units, the location of his anti-air units, the location of your units. You could often dare cutting into your opponent's territory because of this knowledge without putting your vessels at too much risk. It's very similar to MMA's archetypal TvZ style of using drops to pull his opponent out of position so he can advance with his tanks and vice versa. Because this does depend on skill & gives your opponent counterplay it can easily appear to be too powerful in the hands of a strong player, but that's not necessarily so. The zerg has ways of properly safeguarding his units, and in Starbow there are queens to possibly heal the affected units, to further give possible counters to irradiate-play.
I guess that's interesting, but I don't know if I would trust an implementation by community members, (and I don't know if Starbow developers have the required expertise), since it's so strongly tied to the existing pathfinding. Wouldn't you need triggers to constantly affect units? I would be very worried about whether you can create consistent unit movement this way.
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On January 17 2014 01:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 01:42 Killcani wrote:
I would be careful to take balance feedback from forums like these as most people posting have no clue what they are talking about. I just think you should strive to make this game more exciting(slower battles, more micro, reavers shots etc) and APM intensive(so better players can shine) as those were two areas that I felt sc2 really lacked in. apm says who is better player. lol.
yes it does if the game requires a certain amount of apm to be played good.
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On January 17 2014 01:49 Grumbels wrote:
I guess that's interesting, but I don't know if I would trust an implementation by community members, since it's so strongly tied to the pathfinding implementation in the engine. Wouldn't you need triggers to constantly affect units? I would be very worried about whether you can create a consistent implementation that's not frustrating.
The guy says its literally a flag command you can switch off by one click. That doesnt sound like something too extreme to implement,
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I don't quite understand the discussions about smartcast, pathing and unit selection. Aren't those some of the main things that set Starbow apart from BW (and the SC2BW mod)?
I mean, sure Starbow can toy around with that kind of stuff. But wouldn't it be more interesting to balance Starbow around being Starbow, instead of just going back to BW whenever a problem (or some theoretical arguement why there could be a problem) occurs?
Edit: Not to get missinterpreted. If the question is only whether units should move a little more spread etc. I'm all for (at least discussing/testing) it. Just not the extreme let's-solve-it-with-BW approaches for things that may be solveable more comfortably.
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On January 17 2014 02:02 Big J wrote:
I don't quite understand the discussions about smartcast, pathing and unit selection. Aren't those some of the main things that set Starbow apart from BW (and the SC2BW mod)?
I mean, sure Starbow can toy around with that kind of stuff. But wouldn't it be more interesting to balance Starbow around being Starbow, instead of just going back to BW whenever a problem (or some theoretical arguement why there could be a problem) occurs?
But clumps of hydras and roaches still look bad in Starbow. If there was a non-intrusive way of making units spread out more I think we should go for it. (I just doubt whether it's all that easy) Also, removal of smartcast goes a long way to balancing spellpower. (and unit selection isn't possible to change therefore shouldn't be brought up)
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On January 17 2014 02:02 Big J wrote:
I don't quite understand the discussions about smartcast, pathing and unit selection. Aren't those some of the main things that set Starbow apart from BW (and the SC2BW mod)?
I mean, sure Starbow can toy around with that kind of stuff. But wouldn't it be more interesting to balance Starbow around being Starbow, instead of just going back to BW whenever a problem (or some theoretical arguement why there could be a problem) occurs?
Edit: Not to get missinterpreted. If the question is only whether units should move a little more spread etc. I'm all for (at least discussing/testing) it. Just not the extreme let's-solve-it-with-BW approaches for things that may be solveable more comfortably.
Who said anything about BW? I couldnt care less about BW pathing. I just want units to be A BIT more spread out thats all.
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On January 17 2014 02:02 Big J wrote:
I don't quite understand the discussions about smartcast, pathing and unit selection. Aren't those some of the main things that set Starbow apart from BW (and the SC2BW mod)?
I mean, sure Starbow can toy around with that kind of stuff. But wouldn't it be more interesting to balance Starbow around being Starbow, instead of just going back to BW whenever a problem (or some theoretical arguement why there could be a problem) occurs?
Edit: Not to get missinterpreted. If the question is only whether units should move a little more spread etc. I'm all for (at least discussing/testing) it. Just not the extreme let's-solve-it-with-BW approaches for things that may be solveable more comfortably.
I prefer powerful hard to cast spells than average everyone can spam it spells
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On January 17 2014 01:51 Killcani wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 01:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On January 17 2014 01:42 Killcani wrote:
I would be careful to take balance feedback from forums like these as most people posting have no clue what they are talking about. I just think you should strive to make this game more exciting(slower battles, more micro, reavers shots etc) and APM intensive(so better players can shine) as those were two areas that I felt sc2 really lacked in. apm says who is better player. lol. yes it does if the game requires a certain amount of apm to be played good.
Yes but what skill level are we talking? You said "so better players can shine"
Brains vs hands? Who you wanna win?
Brains for me ofc.
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On January 17 2014 02:07 Killcani wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 02:02 Big J wrote:
I don't quite understand the discussions about smartcast, pathing and unit selection. Aren't those some of the main things that set Starbow apart from BW (and the SC2BW mod)?
I mean, sure Starbow can toy around with that kind of stuff. But wouldn't it be more interesting to balance Starbow around being Starbow, instead of just going back to BW whenever a problem (or some theoretical arguement why there could be a problem) occurs?
Edit: Not to get missinterpreted. If the question is only whether units should move a little more spread etc. I'm all for (at least discussing/testing) it. Just not the extreme let's-solve-it-with-BW approaches for things that may be solveable more comfortably. I prefer powerful hard to cast spells than average everyone can spam it spells
Spells can be difficult to cast for different reasons though. Smartcast is just one thing. As Plansix brought up Vessels will be easier to cast with because they're flying, pretty fast, etc. Compare to an HT or similar which is a slow unit that you have to angle and control with more care.
Might be interesting to bring in all the extra abilities that Starbow has into this discussion, too.
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EPT
