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On February 06 2014 03:21 HaRuHi wrote:Where do you hide your zergs yo? Like, the best zergs that are active + Show Spoiler +(haven't seen sasquatch, nerchio or tefel play in ages) I could find are TheRedBandit and Dragonei , and they get wrecked by any midtier terran. The Big Problem with reaper charges, despite them being endless is that they also kill of larva and eggs, which just stops unit production completly and they heal while having 80 life o.0. I actually like the feel of roaches vs mech. Really good terrans snipe banelings, which is incredible to watch, maybe it makes the game to hard for the average player though and they feel like a very nice asset since the enginge allows bio to clump better, which makes zerglins a little worse, but then again, the reduced healing from medics helps. I am kinda indefferent here, I just like them for the sake of variety. As for limited unit selection, that is the reason why I play Starbow and not BW, because I like the added comfort of the sc2 engine.
I have one terran who has beaten me more than I've beaten him(dirtybag). And even then it's still very close to 50/50 depending on the day.
@Patchnotes. Banes are sick good against bio. Limiting selectable units would help this a bit, and in doing so you may not need to remove the unit. Also, I think limiting units selected is just an overall good move for many different reasons.
edit: I guess I don't care if you think I'm mid teir, or that I really AM mid teir. But I feel like I've never even played you. Also the fact that there is only one T that I've played in SB that would be, at least a little, statistically, better then myself.
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On February 06 2014 06:19 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 05:57 coZy wrote:On February 06 2014 00:19 Kabel wrote:
A gift from Blizzard?
I wrote a letter to an employee at Blizzard where I asked if it would be possible for Blizzard to implement limited unit selection in the editor, maybe in a future patch, so it can be used for mods and custom games. They responded quickly and said it would be looked into.
I am personally curious to see how the game would play out without smart cast and with limited unit selection, since I think there are some gameplay advantages gained by it. (Maybe 16 or 24 unit limit). Perhaps can that be released as an alternative hard-core version of Starbow... Might appeal to old Korean BW-veterans? ^^ Of course can a game be designed without a selection limit, but that requires some different solutions. (Which is what we try to work on now). This is not the most important thing in the world, but might be fun for those of you who have requested a removal of selection limit + smart cast.
I really don't like the idea of adding in limited unit selection. It's a step down from sc2 and personally, I think it's going to drive away, and frustrate, more people than it's going to bring to the game. If people wanted to play Brood War, they'd play Brood War. Isn't that why you guys made Starbow in the first place? To create a game that was as fun as Brood War, but also while adding in some Starcraft 2 units and new skills/spells? To be different? And to the alternate version suggestion: while adding in limited unit selection might be a good idea to bring in some former BW pros, I don't think releasing a separate version is a smart move (at least not yet). All I can see it doing is splitting the already tiny community into BW veterans and former SC2 players. People never understand this, but if something in the game becomes more difficult for you it also becomes more difficult for your opponent. It's about having a rhythm of play that you're comfortable with and maintaining this throughout the game. Furthermore, the selection limit encourages you to break up the death ball, to use more hotkeys and to pay more attention to your army positioning. If you're not comfortable with controlling your army you simply have to adjust your strategy and be more careful in moving your units around. In the end your opponent will be equally affected and the end result is hopefully positive: more strategical, positional play. I think that Brood War's mechanical requirements were a bit too high and too often you ended up with having to perform repetitive mechanical tasks, but the basic idea of having to adjust your strategy based on your mechanical proficiency seems sound to me. I think if people give it a chance they'll enjoy it. It's just a question of having the mechanical tasks not becoming a chore.
I mean, I don't know about you, but I haven't been having troubles at all with death balls in Starbow, so frankly, I don't know what you're referring to with "breaking up the death ball". I can understand the skill ceiling aspect, how it's harder to use so many hotkeys and would kind of separate the scrubs from the pros, but I feel like there are other ways to make that distinction, like macro, game sense, and army control/positioning. I don't think there needs to be another factor on top of all of that. It seems excessive and needless.
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On February 06 2014 06:48 coZy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 06:19 Grumbels wrote:On February 06 2014 05:57 coZy wrote:On February 06 2014 00:19 Kabel wrote:
A gift from Blizzard?
I wrote a letter to an employee at Blizzard where I asked if it would be possible for Blizzard to implement limited unit selection in the editor, maybe in a future patch, so it can be used for mods and custom games. They responded quickly and said it would be looked into.
I am personally curious to see how the game would play out without smart cast and with limited unit selection, since I think there are some gameplay advantages gained by it. (Maybe 16 or 24 unit limit). Perhaps can that be released as an alternative hard-core version of Starbow... Might appeal to old Korean BW-veterans? ^^ Of course can a game be designed without a selection limit, but that requires some different solutions. (Which is what we try to work on now). This is not the most important thing in the world, but might be fun for those of you who have requested a removal of selection limit + smart cast.
I really don't like the idea of adding in limited unit selection. It's a step down from sc2 and personally, I think it's going to drive away, and frustrate, more people than it's going to bring to the game. If people wanted to play Brood War, they'd play Brood War. Isn't that why you guys made Starbow in the first place? To create a game that was as fun as Brood War, but also while adding in some Starcraft 2 units and new skills/spells? To be different? And to the alternate version suggestion: while adding in limited unit selection might be a good idea to bring in some former BW pros, I don't think releasing a separate version is a smart move (at least not yet). All I can see it doing is splitting the already tiny community into BW veterans and former SC2 players. People never understand this, but if something in the game becomes more difficult for you it also becomes more difficult for your opponent. It's about having a rhythm of play that you're comfortable with and maintaining this throughout the game. Furthermore, the selection limit encourages you to break up the death ball, to use more hotkeys and to pay more attention to your army positioning. If you're not comfortable with controlling your army you simply have to adjust your strategy and be more careful in moving your units around. In the end your opponent will be equally affected and the end result is hopefully positive: more strategical, positional play. I think that Brood War's mechanical requirements were a bit too high and too often you ended up with having to perform repetitive mechanical tasks, but the basic idea of having to adjust your strategy based on your mechanical proficiency seems sound to me. I think if people give it a chance they'll enjoy it. It's just a question of having the mechanical tasks not becoming a chore. I mean, I don't know about you, but I haven't been having troubles at all with death balls in Starbow, so frankly, I don't know what you're referring to with "breaking up the death ball". I can understand the skill ceiling aspect, how it's harder to use so many hotkeys and would kind of separate the scrubs from the pros, but I feel like there are other ways to make that distinction, like macro, game sense, and army control/positioning. I don't think there needs to be another factor on top of all of that. It seems excessive and needless.
It's not about separating scrubs from pros, the skill ceiling aspect is mostly irrelevant. I think the game plays better with the selection limits on, this certainly was the case in Warcraft 3.
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On February 06 2014 06:44 tehredbanditt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 03:21 HaRuHi wrote:Where do you hide your zergs yo? Like, the best zergs that are active + Show Spoiler +(haven't seen sasquatch, nerchio or tefel play in ages) I could find are TheRedBandit and Dragonei , and they get wrecked by any midtier terran. The Big Problem with reaper charges, despite them being endless is that they also kill of larva and eggs, which just stops unit production completly and they heal while having 80 life o.0. I actually like the feel of roaches vs mech. Really good terrans snipe banelings, which is incredible to watch, maybe it makes the game to hard for the average player though and they feel like a very nice asset since the enginge allows bio to clump better, which makes zerglins a little worse, but then again, the reduced healing from medics helps. I am kinda indefferent here, I just like them for the sake of variety. As for limited unit selection, that is the reason why I play Starbow and not BW, because I like the added comfort of the sc2 engine. I have one terran who has beaten me more than I've beaten him(dirtybag). And even then it's still very close to 50/50 depending on the day. @Patchnotes. Banes are sick good against bio. Limiting selectable units would help this a bit, and in doing so you may not need to remove the unit. Also, I think limiting units selected is just an overall good move for many different reasons. edit: I guess I don't care if you think I'm mid teir, or that I really AM mid teir. But I feel like I've never even played you. Also the fact that there is only one T that I've played in SB that would be, at least a little, statistically, better then myself.
Nononono^^. I think you are one of the best two non-pro zergs there are. The other day I was watching a terran stream, and you showed him the replays of you vs dirtybag and then he adopted his macro and became a real problem...and that terran wasn't very impressive, like 1k overmins at 10 minutes ingame (Maybe it was just because of the way the terran badmouthed himself that gave me the impression of how midtier he was and I don't think those players should be able to take games of the best zergs (You and dragonei), and then those patches come around and let stim pushes come more early, buff firebats, reduce matrix costs) and the devs give the impression that zergs are just dominating terran in tvz, which in my personal expierence is not the case. Like, I never even think about Protoss when it comes to balance.
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Limited unit selections will just scare off casuals. Sc2 already is very unfriendly to players that don't want to practice mechanics for hours and hours, which results into the game feeling like you are only trying to macro and not being able to do much else.
The limited unit selection will mean that micro to most players means having your army attack move towards the other's army without any units being left behind. Honestly, that's not really fun or anything.
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On February 06 2014 07:38 Jerom wrote:
Limited unit selections will just scare off casuals. Sc2 already is very unfriendly to players that don't want to practice mechanics for hours and hours, which results into the game feeling like you are only trying to macro and not being able to do much else.
The limited unit selection will mean that micro to most players means having your army attack move towards the other's army without any units being left behind. Honestly, that's not really fun or anything.
Try 1a2a3a instead of just 1a. I know that's a very scary sequence of six(!) key presses, but I'm still hopeful the "casuals" can manage.
Sorry for being mean, but I don't buy the argument that mechanical aspects of the game directly scare off casuals and that this should be avoided. Casuals is an ill-defined group, gameplay should trump concerns about getting the largest audience possible, and I really doubt that limited selection will scare off that many people to begin with.
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On February 06 2014 07:28 HaRuHi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 06:44 tehredbanditt wrote:On February 06 2014 03:21 HaRuHi wrote:Where do you hide your zergs yo? Like, the best zergs that are active + Show Spoiler +(haven't seen sasquatch, nerchio or tefel play in ages) I could find are TheRedBandit and Dragonei , and they get wrecked by any midtier terran. The Big Problem with reaper charges, despite them being endless is that they also kill of larva and eggs, which just stops unit production completly and they heal while having 80 life o.0. I actually like the feel of roaches vs mech. Really good terrans snipe banelings, which is incredible to watch, maybe it makes the game to hard for the average player though and they feel like a very nice asset since the enginge allows bio to clump better, which makes zerglins a little worse, but then again, the reduced healing from medics helps. I am kinda indefferent here, I just like them for the sake of variety. As for limited unit selection, that is the reason why I play Starbow and not BW, because I like the added comfort of the sc2 engine. I have one terran who has beaten me more than I've beaten him(dirtybag). And even then it's still very close to 50/50 depending on the day. @Patchnotes. Banes are sick good against bio. Limiting selectable units would help this a bit, and in doing so you may not need to remove the unit. Also, I think limiting units selected is just an overall good move for many different reasons. edit: I guess I don't care if you think I'm mid teir, or that I really AM mid teir. But I feel like I've never even played you. Also the fact that there is only one T that I've played in SB that would be, at least a little, statistically, better then myself. Nononono^^. I think you are one of the best two non-pro zergs there are. The other day I was watching a terran stream, and you showed him the replays of you vs dirtybag and then he adopted his macro and became a real problem...and that terran wasn't very impressive, like 1k overmins at 10 minutes ingame (Maybe it was just because of the way the terran badmouthed himself that gave me the impression of how midtier he was and I don't think those players should be able to take games of the best zergs (You and dragonei), and then those patches come around and let stim pushes come more early, buff firebats, reduce matrix costs) and the devs give the impression that zergs are just dominating terran in tvz, which in my personal expierence is not the case. Like, I never even think about Protoss when it comes to balance.
Alright, I see what you mean now. I'd say topramen is one of the better terrans I've played though. He was probably just giving himself a hard time. I've found that most people who end up taking RTS games at least semi seriously usually adopt a pretty rough self critique routine. As far as skill levels go, I'd say there are only two in starbow right now. Decent and bad. There is simply not enough structure to explore the game in much detail and not enough incentive to play ":seriously". A ladder would help in seeing who's good, what the best builds are, what units need adjusting, what races are best on which maps, ect. A ladder is also the only way the game has any shot and can't wait until they release it. I'd love to be able to find games quickly with people who are better then me on a consistent basis.
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Limited unit selection and removing smart cast are just flat out bad ideas. It will add nothing to the game, the only thing it will serve to do is drive away new players. Please be smart about this and realize that.
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I don't really understand "adding" limited unit selection and removing smartcasting, that only BW veterans seem to care about. It's just elitist, completely neglecting native control schemes.
People already have to deal with understanding new abilities, macro mechanics, and the pathing system.
To be honest, a "1a deathball" style isn't even an issue with the amount of space control there is in SB already (eg. tank lines, spider mines, lurkers, dark swarm, etc)
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On February 06 2014 09:12 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:
I don't really understand "adding" limited unit selection and removing smartcasting, that only BW veterans seem to care about. It's just elitist, completely neglecting native control schemes.
People already have to deal with understanding new abilities, macro mechanics, and the pathing system.
To be honest, a "1a deathball" style isn't even an issue with the amount of space control there is in SB already (eg. tank lines, spider mines, lurkers, dark swarm, etc)
while i agree that limited unit selection alone won't do anything for the gameplay (especially with more units per group), i don't agree with your opinion about smartcasting.
I said it several times already, i think smartcasting is the only reason people think certain spells are op (in sc2 and i think the same is true for starbow)
fungal: nerfed (and redesigned) cause it was so easy to spam fungal
snipe: nerfed cause it was so easy to spam it
forcefields: people don't like it cause it is so easy to spam them
storm: people don't like it cause.... i think you got the direction 
Fact is that abilities are fun to use and interesting to watch if they are strong, nobody would give a shit about a 20 dmg storm for example. But another fact is that there are big balance problems if spells are easy spammable, normal "a click" armies suddenly get pretty inefficient and these caster units get massed.
I can see why people like smartcasting, but on the other hand i don't get why people say they won't even try it without it.
Yes in BW it probably was due to technical issues (i guess), but that doesn't mean that it isn't/ can't be also an design decision. I don't see any moba players whining about certain abilities being skillshots (you have to aim, if somebody doesn't know), is it harder? YES! Does it make sense for powerfull abilities? HELL YEAH! (i know it isn't exactly the same, but it is close enough i think).
So yeah, i am full for the removal of smartcasting!
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@The_Red_Viper: You have very good points - but idealy don't you agree that the game should discriminate between players on their ability to do spectacular or tactical stuff like drops, flanks, simultaneous attacks rather than on their ability to fight arbitrary limitations of the interface ? (Ok, I mostly have in mind the watcher's pleasure here^^)
That's why I would rather have spell efficiency balanced through implementing a somewhat complex pathing system, (like Ante_Z is doing) where units usually spread but also clump up at some moments, for exemple on bridges, etc. Storm effect would depend entirely on hitting the right moment to land them - and counter-acting them would consist in moving your army with caution.
This is satisfactory from a "realism" point of view too - moving troops around cleverly being I think a big part of military tactics. Think of how Napoleon lost at Trafalgar because he a-moved his ships in a Congo line and was caught off-guard by Nelson's perfect formation ;-)
You get it - this is a plea for Ante_Z idea ;-)
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On February 06 2014 10:01 lithyeld wrote:
@The_Red_Viper: You have very good points - but idealy don't you agree that the game should discriminate between players on their ability to do spectacular or tactical stuff like drops, flanks, simultaneous attacks rather than on their ability to fight arbitrary limitations of the interface ? (Ok, I mostly have in mind the watcher's pleasure here^^)
That's why I would rather have spell efficiency balanced through implementing a somewhat complex pathing system, (like Ante_Z is doing) where units usually spread but also clump up at some moments, for exemple on bridges, etc. Storm effect would depend entirely on hitting the right moment to land them - and counter-acting them would consist in moving your army with caution.
This is satisfactory from a "realism" point of view too - moving troops around cleverly being I think a big part of military tactics. Think of how Napoleon lost at Trafalgar because he a-moved his ships in a Congo line and was caught off-guard by Nelson's perfect formation ;-)
You get it - this is a plea for Ante_Z idea ;-)
I wouldn't say that's an arbitrary limitation of the interface. There's nothing inherent that says if you have two spellcasters selected and you cast a spell, that only one should cast the spell. If anything, I would presume it would be the opposite. If you have a bunch of marines and click stim, they all stim. At the same time, if you have a bunch of marines and click attack, they all attack.
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24 per control group? no I will stop playing starbow. If I wanted to go back and play with brood war like mechanics I would play Brood war.
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If any players who consider themselves "high level" want to play I'm more then interested :D I wanna grind a ton of starbow games now since I took a small break from starbow/sc2 and recently.
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On February 06 2014 11:25 WarpTV wrote:
24 per control group? no I will stop playing starbow. If I wanted to go back and play with brood war like mechanics I would play Brood war.
With automine and MBS it wouldn't be nearly as bad. I think it would be much more manageable than it was in BW
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Amazing work as always. We need some 6 person maps though, post haste.
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Russian Federation367 Posts
There is a limited unit selection at SC2BW mod already.
p.s. Dont even try to implement this at starbow, bcuz no one will care about Starbow when we already SC2BW mod. We play Starbow not bcuz of its "innovative" sc2+bw units gameplay, but because it is BW balance with SC2 mechanics.
p.p.s. And if youre going to invent smart cast then do mines effecient enought like in bw, not like now (now they are almost useless, the only real use for them is a big 200/200 fight).
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Please don't impose artificial UI limitations. Just because a 16 year old game with bad controls still happened to be a good game, doesn't mean Starbow should emulate those weaknesses. With smartcast at least I see the point because harder to use spellcasters could have more powerful spells. But what good would limited selection do?
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Limited unit selection wasn't a technical limitation , it was a design choice to slow the game down and make army movement more strategical. I played a lot of warcraft 3, and the selection limit in that game forced you to make choices about army composition, control and position that in my opinion added to the game. I think there is enough evidence to at least try out a selection limit.
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I'm all for removing smartcasting.
Devs, what are your thoughts on the new pathing system, now that you guys have been testing it for a while? Are you discussing any further tweaks with AnteZ?
On February 06 2014 17:24 Scorch wrote:
But what good would limited selection do?
Limited selection encourages you to break off little task forces and send them around the map pursuing objectives you might not have considered had you been in the habit of selecting your whole army at once. The anti-deathball consequences of limited selection, I think, should be considered a secondary benefit to this.
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EPT
