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On February 06 2014 00:56 Glitchy wrote:
What if banelings morphed from roaches instead? Makes a bit of sense lore wise since roaches spit acid and lings don't.
Make them a little beefier but also give them friendly fire. Change the corrosive damage bonuses around a bit and instead of hooks, give them an ability that allows them to be launched a small distance after a delay. This is just me talking out of my ass of course and i realize it's kinda like a siege tank but it might be more interesting or fun? Please tell me off if this is a bad idea haha.
I don't think maiking Starbow such a different game from SC1 and SC2 is a good idea.. Or don't call them banelings.
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Maybe they can test it out in that test map? I mean, they do already have the sentinel and some units are drastically different...I think. Of course i probably don't know as much as the people in this thread, just wanted to share an idea since banelings might need a change.
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A 24 unit selection limit is graphically the nicest, you will fill all the space, but you won't have any units hidden away in tabs. And it ensures at least some cap on the number of mutalisks you can effectively use. Personally I would favor a 16 unit limit, but I think it punishes players that use zerglings and marines too much.
Also, have you thought about giving roaches a special type of attack? The acid saliva always makes me feel like it should do something specific to mechanical units or structures. I don't know about gameplay though, but it seems cool. ^^
Do firebats have area of effect damage? I can never tell.
I don't like queens in Starbow, I think it really shows that they have been subjects to so many balance changes. I think the worst kind of unit is like the hellbat in SC2, which has many awkward rules and is not intuitive to play.
For the queen it's not immediately obvious what the inject larva ability does because it gives you limited graphical feedback and also, because of the quick pace of the game you often end up injecting hatcheries with full larva capacity.
The lack of attack without activating feels awkward to me.
The restriction to only have one queen per hatchery is a very weird rule that in practice you would never notice outside of a few scenarios where it might feel really annoying. I also don't understand the logic behind it, I don't see mass queens being very viable as long as the cooldown on enrage is sufficient.
The ability to speed up buildings seems far too strong. One of the problems with zerg in SC2 is that they don't have enough restrictions: they can invest purely into economy or units and this creates these rote strategies where you simplify the game to economy->units. Now zerg can play like: economy->speed up to the desired tech level->mass units for the rest of the game.
And now the reduction of spread creep energy is awkward too, leaving the queen with spare energy at the start. If creep is not powerful enough you have to do something like add a +5% movement speed bonus on creep, not to make the ability free. Players should have to want to have creep connecting important locations, this makes it a strategic goal that adds more depth to the gameplay.
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I actually did some math and if we keep the current cool-down and energy cost then inject one larvae is pretty much mathematically equal to current mechanism. Might be more intuitive and add more distinctiveness to zerg.
I don't think hatches should be able to store more than 4 larvae though as this might scale in the wrong direction.
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Personally, I really don't care about unlimited unit selection, but I would really like to see how Starbow would play without smart-casting. It really gives another dimension to casting spells, like good storms, or mass irradiates suddenly becomes something really cool to be able to pull off.
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Do limited unit selection, I think it improves gameplay a lot and also makes it easier for pros to differentiate themselves from amateuers. I'd do something more than BW though as 12 punishes bio/ling heavy players way to hard, maybe something around 20. Also I'd much rather see no smart casting than the removal of energy upgrades. I don't think we need blizzard for any of this anyway as all of it is available in SC2BW, maybe ask maverick how he did it in the editor?
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Regarding the baneling ... if you want to make bio TvZ work then you should consider adding snipe back to the ghost. In the lore it is hinted that the Terrans were trying to produce and anti-baneling round for the ghost. Give the ghost a 35 damage snipe and then there will be some counter play against baneling compositions.
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Where do you hide your zergs yo?
Like, the best zergs that are active + Show Spoiler +(haven't seen sasquatch, nerchio or tefel play in ages)
I actually like the feel of roaches vs mech.
Really good terrans snipe banelings, which is incredible to watch, maybe it makes the game to hard for the average player though and they feel like a very nice asset since the enginge allows bio to clump better, which makes zerglins a little worse, but then again, the reduced healing from medics helps. I am kinda indefferent here, I just like them for the sake of variety.
As for limited unit selection, that is the reason why I play Starbow and not BW, because I like the added comfort of the sc2 engine.
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Starbow still has multiple buildings selection and automining (in my opinion, these were the hardest BW mechanics to deal with) + smartcast.
Also it doesn't have to be 12 units max. I think the 24 units selection is the most natural one. It fills the interface nicely and works well against the "deathball effect" because your army will have to be split.
24 is a lot of units btw so you can still 1a for a good 10~12 min into the game wich make things way easier.
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@Queen and the importance of recognition.
+ Show Spoiler +I don't like queens in Starbow, I think it really shows that they have been subjects to so many balance changes. I think the worst kind of unit is like the hellbat in SC2, which has many awkward rules and is not intuitive to play.
For the queen it's not immediately obvious what the inject larva ability does because it gives you limited graphical feedback and also, because of the quick pace of the game you often end up injecting hatcheries with full larva capacity.
The lack of attack without activating feels awkward to me.
The restriction to only have one queen per hatchery is a very weird rule that in practice you would never notice outside of a few scenarios where it might feel really annoying. I also don't understand the logic behind it, I don't see mass queens being very viable as long as the cooldown on enrage is sufficient.
The ability to speed up buildings seems far too strong. One of the problems with zerg in SC2 is that they don't have enough restrictions: they can invest purely into economy or units and this creates these rote strategies where you simplify the game to economy->units. Now zerg can play like: economy->speed up to the desired tech level->mass units for the rest of the game.
And now the reduction of spread creep energy is awkward too, leaving the queen with spare energy at the start. If creep is not powerful enough you have to do something like add a +5% movement speed bonus on creep, not to make the ability free. Players should have to want to have creep connecting important locations, this makes it a strategic goal that adds more depth to the gameplay. Generally we try to make units recognizable and easily understandable for players. Every unit from the Starcraft universe shall do roughly what players expect them to do. If something is different with a unit, compared to BW or SC2, it shall preferably be easily explainable. For example "The Stalker is a fast-moving skirmish unit who is strong vs light units." Its a bit different from SC2, but hopefully still easy to understand, and easy to get used to. A new skin, model, button or other graphical effect is often added to a unit or spell that is different, just as a remainder for players. The Queen has indeed gone through different phases during the development. And it does add a couple of new rules to the game that needs to be learnt: - Only 1 Queen allowed per Hatchery - Queen has an ability to attack - Inject works differently - Transfuse has been reworked into Nurturing swarm All of those things have a high WTF-factor: "WTF!!1!1 Why does not my Queen attack?!" Once a player has read the tooltips or been informed about those "rules", the abilities intend to be easy to play with, since the Queen still follows the same pattern from SC2: - Spread creep, Inject Hatcheries, Heal units, but now has some extra features. Just as Orbital Command and Nexus upgrade offer extra features for the players, but still maintain the basic principle from SC2. The reason Queens got restricted to 1-per hatchery was to keep the macro mechanics in balance, far back in the development. All macro mechanics were given kinda equal strength for macro, and has a limited energy pool. (One Orbital, one upgraded Nexus or one Queen per base.) Another problem with Queens back in the day was "free early defence", without Zerg having to invest larvas into units/defence structures, which shut down enemy early aggression. Plus it gave Zerg access to mass Nurturing swarm for insanely fast tech. (Atm it is a "sacrifice" due to the limited energy pool.) Creep who gives speed bonus hinders aggression and screws with unit relationsships. One practical example is early Zealot pressure vs Zerg who goes fast Hydra den. If Hydras gain speed bonus on Creep, Zealots have a hard time to even deal damage vs them. Earlier playtesting showed that it was just very boring for the gameplay and hard to get right. Better to not attack at all early. Any bonus that is too strong risks to hinder aggression and harassment, which might make the game less fun. Is Creep useful enough to spend energy on spreading? Maybe. It still provides scouting information, plus it connects so Queens and Spine crawlers can move between bases. In some rare cases can healing help to save units. Must it be like this?
No no! The gameplay can surely be improved a ton more, and things can be cleaned up or reworked for the better. Much of the stuff in the game are leftovers from earlier development, where things were designed or balanced to fit into that context. It is easy to fall in the trap of BW though. Obviously the things we brought back from BW works best in Starbow, and much of the new stuff might feel wonky. But if too much stuff is from BW, then we get SC2BW. The challenge is to find room for new things, in a way that makes sense and fits with the game. In that regard, macro mechanics is a "new" thing in the game that probably needs more work before it feels 100% natural.
@Dragoon and Vulture
+ Show Spoiler +
@Limited unit selection and smart cast
+ Show Spoiler +If Blizzard adds the feature of limited unit selection, it will be tried on a test map, together with removed smart cast. Maybe can it be a seperate version to the real game, for those who prefer to play with harder mechanics. This is however not anything that can be done now. (Or perhaps never)
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I think you should diversify and invent some new creep bonuses. For instance, regeneration for all units, increased movement speed for queens, burrow-move underneath creep for some units (defiler maybe).
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I guess I haven't played any high tier players because I am having no trouble as Terran vs Zerg at the moment. With a stim timing after 1 rax FE / Reaper expand / CC first I have been able to deny fast Zerg thirds all but once (on Tau Cross where the player made 5 spines spanned between his natural and third as they are quite close). Behind this I can take my own third and depending on what they go even contain the Zerg on two base for some time.
Lowering the stim time would make this push come quicker and stop even earlier thirds from being fortified by spines/Queens. Again, maybe I just haven't played the right players, but I have found TvZ to easily be my highest win rate by far.
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I'd like to see a version with 24 unit selection and non smart unit casting. Not a huge fan of the stalker and roach as well, they don't seem to fit in as well as other units.
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On February 06 2014 04:39 Whiplash wrote:
I'd like to see a version with 24 unit selection and non smart unit casting. Not a huge fan of the stalker and roach as well, they don't seem to fit in as well as other units.
They have uses though. Roaches very good vs mech and Stalker is pretty good (and IMo very underused) if you go for a Stargate less opening in PvZ. However, the reason they are not seen as much is that Dragoons + Psy Storm simply scales so incredibly well relative to BW (which makes getting out Stalkers a bit less important). We are looking at that issue now.
But also, we are also trying to adjust Roaches and both Stalkers. I think Stalker may get some new stat values which overall will make it a quite a bit better.
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On February 06 2014 00:19 Kabel wrote:
A gift from Blizzard?
I wrote a letter to an employee at Blizzard where I asked if it would be possible for Blizzard to implement limited unit selection in the editor, maybe in a future patch, so it can be used for mods and custom games. They responded quickly and said it would be looked into.
I am personally curious to see how the game would play out without smart cast and with limited unit selection, since I think there are some gameplay advantages gained by it. (Maybe 16 or 24 unit limit). Perhaps can that be released as an alternative hard-core version of Starbow... Might appeal to old Korean BW-veterans? ^^ Of course can a game be designed without a selection limit, but that requires some different solutions. (Which is what we try to work on now). This is not the most important thing in the world, but might be fun for those of you who have requested a removal of selection limit + smart cast.
I really don't like the idea of adding in limited unit selection. It's a step down from sc2 and personally, I think it's going to drive away, and frustrate, more people than it's going to bring to the game. If people wanted to play Brood War, they'd play Brood War. Isn't that why you guys made Starbow in the first place? To create a game that was as fun as Brood War, but also while adding in some Starcraft 2 units and new skills/spells? To be different?
And to the alternate version suggestion: while adding in limited unit selection might be a good idea to bring in some former BW pros, I don't think releasing a separate version is a smart move (at least not yet). All I can see it doing is splitting the already tiny community into BW veterans and former SC2 players.
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On February 06 2014 03:53 Grumbels wrote:
I think you should diversify and invent some new creep bonuses. For instance, regeneration for all units, increased movement speed for queens, burrow-move underneath creep for some units (defiler maybe).
Queens do have increased movement on creep and all other units(except flying ones, I am not sure) have regeneration. Burrow-movement for Ultras, Zerglings, Hydras and Defilers is already available when you upgrade it.
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On February 06 2014 05:57 coZy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 00:19 Kabel wrote:
A gift from Blizzard?
I wrote a letter to an employee at Blizzard where I asked if it would be possible for Blizzard to implement limited unit selection in the editor, maybe in a future patch, so it can be used for mods and custom games. They responded quickly and said it would be looked into.
I am personally curious to see how the game would play out without smart cast and with limited unit selection, since I think there are some gameplay advantages gained by it. (Maybe 16 or 24 unit limit). Perhaps can that be released as an alternative hard-core version of Starbow... Might appeal to old Korean BW-veterans? ^^ Of course can a game be designed without a selection limit, but that requires some different solutions. (Which is what we try to work on now). This is not the most important thing in the world, but might be fun for those of you who have requested a removal of selection limit + smart cast.
I really don't like the idea of adding in limited unit selection. It's a step down from sc2 and personally, I think it's going to drive away, and frustrate, more people than it's going to bring to the game. If people wanted to play Brood War, they'd play Brood War. Isn't that why you guys made Starbow in the first place? To create a game that was as fun as Brood War, but also while adding in some Starcraft 2 units and new skills/spells? To be different? And to the alternate version suggestion: while adding in limited unit selection might be a good idea to bring in some former BW pros, I don't think releasing a separate version is a smart move (at least not yet). All I can see it doing is splitting the already tiny community into BW veterans and former SC2 players.
People never understand this, but if something in the game becomes more difficult for you it also becomes more difficult for your opponent. It's about having a rhythm of play that you're comfortable with and maintaining this throughout the game. Furthermore, the selection limit encourages you to break up the death ball, to use more hotkeys and to pay more attention to your army positioning. If you're not comfortable with controlling your army you simply have to adjust your strategy and be more careful in moving your units around. In the end your opponent will be equally affected and the end result is hopefully positive: more strategical, positional play.
I think that Brood War's mechanical requirements were a bit too high and too often you ended up with having to perform repetitive mechanical tasks, but the basic idea of having to adjust your strategy based on your mechanical proficiency seems sound to me. I think if people give it a chance they'll enjoy it. It's just a question of having the mechanical tasks not becoming a chore.
On February 06 2014 06:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 03:53 Grumbels wrote:
I think you should diversify and invent some new creep bonuses. For instance, regeneration for all units, increased movement speed for queens, burrow-move underneath creep for some units (defiler maybe). Queens do have increased movement on creep and all other units(except flying ones, I am not sure) have regeneration. Burrow-movement for Ultras, Zerglings, Hydras and Defilers is already available when you upgrade it.
Yeah, but as a theme, where you try to invent creep bonuses for each individual unit. Since currently creep is slightly boring. Maybe it is too cluttered though.
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I think that a 24 limit per group would be cool. The double that BW.
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I am surprisingly agreeing on this. I usually hate all the "return to BW" mechanics, but 24 per group... I think I can live with that. And then mutas can be more clumped again :D
The zerglings though...
This is ofc IF Blizzard etc...
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EPT
