On January 21 2014 12:38 KasPra wrote: Sorry for the dumb question but I didn't find my answer from the OP, can I play this after the free-arcade patch even if I don't have SC2 bought?
On January 21 2014 12:38 KasPra wrote: Sorry for the dumb question but I didn't find my answer from the OP, can I play this after the free-arcade patch even if I don't have SC2 bought?
Yep! All of the SC2 Arcade, which Starbow is on, will be free to anyone.
Goliaths had 15% less DPS relative to its BW counter-part which obviously made it very hard for Terran in TvZ. Viking upgrade was simply too expensive given how weak it is without it. The reason there is an upgrade for the Viking, and it doens't just start with it, is due to the fact that we don't want it to prevent early game dropplay too easily. So we think there needs to be an upgrade, however 150/150 140BT is way too expensive for a niche unit.
Goliath vs Carrier dynamic will be improved upon later on (if it turns out there is a problem) We are also looking at Irradiate as we are not completely satifised with how it currently functions. At the moment, it is a neccesity for terran, but we will try to create balance where terran doesn't have to rely on it as much as they do now.
On January 21 2014 11:52 Morbidius wrote: What is the build order for IdrA's ''perfected'' 2 hatch muta?
not at all perfected i just made shit in order, 2 queen boosts on the lair 1 on the spire. start saving larvae for mutas when the spires like half done-ish. spine and lings if you fear vultures or a bio attack.
On January 21 2014 11:52 Morbidius wrote: What is the build order for IdrA's ''perfected'' 2 hatch muta?
not at all perfected i just made shit in order, 2 queen boosts on the lair 1 on the spire. start saving larvae for mutas when the spires like half done-ish. spine and lings if you fear vultures or a bio attack.
IdrA, is it possible that you might try a comeback into the competitive scene if Starbow turns out to be the "Savior" of SC2 E-sports?
On January 21 2014 11:52 Morbidius wrote: What is the build order for IdrA's ''perfected'' 2 hatch muta?
not at all perfected i just made shit in order, 2 queen boosts on the lair 1 on the spire. start saving larvae for mutas when the spires like half done-ish. spine and lings if you fear vultures or a bio attack.
IdrA, is it possible that you might try a comeback into the competitive scene if Starbow turns out to be the "Savior" of SC2 E-sports?
Idra as your PR man in this thread I advise you to stay away from this question
Yes it looks like he has it down perfectly atm. And for all intensive purposes it doesn't appear that Terran can defend against it at all.
But then again, Idra did say on stream that he feels silly making any balance suggestions for a game that's been out for a week.
"For all intents' purposes"
Also for the 2 hatch muta discussion- I thought the way to play mech (in bw) was to open with marines and medics plus turrets? I could be completely wrong here though. I saw flash once go cc first and then go all out on the defensive against mutas but he still lost to the mutas just picking him apart.
Again though, I could be completely off base here.
The way to open mech is usually 1 base factory, rush vulture and expand. Slow vultures can kite slow lings all day without getting hit so zerg needs to build static defense to not lose drones.
Other ways to open mech is - 2 fact speed/mines vultures (double expand or allin if zerg has no tech and map allows for it) - 14CC into 3 fact gols - Fantasy build - Reality (Hell) build
I think the 5 marine medic mech opening was something Baby (and only Baby) did a lot, he would open with 1 Rax fe, acad, 5 marine medic, and then either produce 1 vulture or go straight into goliaths. Sometimes he would get this wicked timing where zerg wouldn't build enough defense/units, and he would just waltz straight in with a handful of bio and a couple goliaths.
2 hatch muta is defendable but also very very powerful.
The problem is that this isn't an exact replica of Broodwar (as has been mentioned like 50 times in this thread no offense ) . . . Starbow is it's own game, as exemplified by the following unique ability:
Nurturing Swarm Energy: 25 Range: 7 Duration 15 s
Releases a cloud of nurturing insects at a targeted biological unit or structure, restoring 75 hitpoints to the target. If used on a morphing structure these insects will increase the structure's morph rate by 100% for 15 seconds.
Nurturing Swarm Queen ability allows for creating buildings way faster. Idra learned today that the spell can be chained to make hatcheries and spire build super fast. Because this ability can be chained and wall-offs are much easier in Starbow, 2-hatch Muta comes faster than in Broodwar. So fast, in fact, that BeastyQT didn't even have turrets up in time when he knew that this exact build was coming and he was specifically trying to beat it.
So basically, standard BW defense does not work here. BeastyQT thinks he's found a way to defend with Vikings, but he won't know until he tests it out against Idra tomorrow.
Terran has an ability that increases production speed as well.
It still makes 2 hatch muta a semi-allin if you defend it without losing too many scvs you win.
I'm not talking about the speed that buildings produce units, I'm talking about producing the buildings themselves faster. 100% faster. Read the ability text carefully.
It's not semi-allin at all at this time, because Zerg has map control and can take a 3rd behind the Mutas. In order for Terran to defend (in theory) the Vikings can't leave the protection of Turrets and the Turrets can't be build everywhere on the map.
But all this is a moot point now that Hider has stated that Goliath's are being buffed tomorrow.
I know.
Whether you make the building faster or the unit faster makes no difference on how fast the first unit comes out.
It's not semi-allin at all at this time, because Zerg has map control and can take a 3rd behind the Mutas.
This is exactly as it was in BW, and as someone previously stated, the turrets were late and BeastyQT was able to defend against it a couple games later.
The reason its not a pure allin is that Terran can still lose even if he defends against it. With enough practice and knowledge of timings, it becomes a more complex version of defeating a 4/5/6 pool.
A progamer will be able to crush 2 hatch muta 100% of the time if scouted, however an amateur will often struggle even after defending.
Yes it looks like he has it down perfectly atm. And for all intensive purposes it doesn't appear that Terran can defend against it at all.
But then again, Idra did say on stream that he feels silly making any balance suggestions for a game that's been out for a week.
"For all intents' purposes"
Also for the 2 hatch muta discussion- I thought the way to play mech (in bw) was to open with marines and medics plus turrets? I could be completely wrong here though. I saw flash once go cc first and then go all out on the defensive against mutas but he still lost to the mutas just picking him apart.
Again though, I could be completely off base here.
The way to open mech is usually 1 base factory, rush vulture and expand. Slow vultures can kite slow lings all day without getting hit so zerg needs to build static defense to not lose drones.
Other ways to open mech is - 2 fact speed/mines vultures (double expand or allin if zerg has no tech and map allows for it) - 14CC into 3 fact gols - Fantasy build - Reality (Hell) build
I think the 5 marine medic mech opening was something Baby (and only Baby) did a lot, he would open with 1 Rax fe, acad, 5 marine medic, and then either produce 1 vulture or go straight into goliaths. Sometimes he would get this wicked timing where zerg wouldn't build enough defense/units, and he would just waltz straight in with a handful of bio and a couple goliaths.
2 hatch muta is defendable but also very very powerful.
The problem is that this isn't an exact replica of Broodwar (as has been mentioned like 50 times in this thread no offense ) . . . Starbow is it's own game, as exemplified by the following unique ability:
Nurturing Swarm Energy: 25 Range: 7 Duration 15 s
Releases a cloud of nurturing insects at a targeted biological unit or structure, restoring 75 hitpoints to the target. If used on a morphing structure these insects will increase the structure's morph rate by 100% for 15 seconds.
Nurturing Swarm Queen ability allows for creating buildings way faster. Idra learned today that the spell can be chained to make hatcheries and spire build super fast. Because this ability can be chained and wall-offs are much easier in Starbow, 2-hatch Muta comes faster than in Broodwar. So fast, in fact, that BeastyQT didn't even have turrets up in time when he knew that this exact build was coming and he was specifically trying to beat it.
So basically, standard BW defense does not work here. BeastyQT thinks he's found a way to defend with Vikings, but he won't know until he tests it out against Idra tomorrow.
Terran has an ability that increases production speed as well.
It still makes 2 hatch muta a semi-allin if you defend it without losing too many scvs you win.
I'm not talking about the speed that buildings produce units, I'm talking about producing the buildings themselves faster. 100% faster. Read the ability text carefully.
It's not semi-allin at all at this time, because Zerg has map control and can take a 3rd behind the Mutas. In order for Terran to defend (in theory) the Vikings can't leave the protection of Turrets and the Turrets can't be build everywhere on the map.
But all this is a moot point now that Hider has stated that Goliath's are being buffed tomorrow.
I know.
Whether you make the building faster or the unit faster makes no difference on how fast the first unit comes out.
I don't understand. You think that Zerg being able to morph Lair X2 as fast and Spire X2 as fast will make no difference as to what time Mutas come out? That this mechanic is comparable to the Terran's unit chrono? Because they're completely different things. One allows you to produce units faster, one allows you to tech faster. Getting up to tier 2 tech super fast is pretty different than pumping out tier 1 units faster. Especially consider that Queens also have the ability to spawn larva faster via inject.
In other words, if both the Zerg and the Terran were to race to Tier 2 tech the Zerg will go 100% faster because it can boost it's buildings construction speed by 100%. That's a significant difference.
The whole point of me pointing this out is to make clear that Starbow timings are probably going to differ from that of BW. There's some radically different units and abilities and the engine is completely new. Units behave differently and almost none of the stats are the same.
Also keep in mind that I'm not complaining about Queen abilities whatsoever. I think it's cool that Queens are such a vital unit in Starbow.
Yes it looks like he has it down perfectly atm. And for all intensive purposes it doesn't appear that Terran can defend against it at all.
But then again, Idra did say on stream that he feels silly making any balance suggestions for a game that's been out for a week.
"For all intents' purposes"
Also for the 2 hatch muta discussion- I thought the way to play mech (in bw) was to open with marines and medics plus turrets? I could be completely wrong here though. I saw flash once go cc first and then go all out on the defensive against mutas but he still lost to the mutas just picking him apart.
Again though, I could be completely off base here.
The way to open mech is usually 1 base factory, rush vulture and expand. Slow vultures can kite slow lings all day without getting hit so zerg needs to build static defense to not lose drones.
Other ways to open mech is - 2 fact speed/mines vultures (double expand or allin if zerg has no tech and map allows for it) - 14CC into 3 fact gols - Fantasy build - Reality (Hell) build
I think the 5 marine medic mech opening was something Baby (and only Baby) did a lot, he would open with 1 Rax fe, acad, 5 marine medic, and then either produce 1 vulture or go straight into goliaths. Sometimes he would get this wicked timing where zerg wouldn't build enough defense/units, and he would just waltz straight in with a handful of bio and a couple goliaths.
2 hatch muta is defendable but also very very powerful.
The problem is that this isn't an exact replica of Broodwar (as has been mentioned like 50 times in this thread no offense ) . . . Starbow is it's own game, as exemplified by the following unique ability:
Nurturing Swarm Energy: 25 Range: 7 Duration 15 s
Releases a cloud of nurturing insects at a targeted biological unit or structure, restoring 75 hitpoints to the target. If used on a morphing structure these insects will increase the structure's morph rate by 100% for 15 seconds.
Nurturing Swarm Queen ability allows for creating buildings way faster. Idra learned today that the spell can be chained to make hatcheries and spire build super fast. Because this ability can be chained and wall-offs are much easier in Starbow, 2-hatch Muta comes faster than in Broodwar. So fast, in fact, that BeastyQT didn't even have turrets up in time when he knew that this exact build was coming and he was specifically trying to beat it.
So basically, standard BW defense does not work here. BeastyQT thinks he's found a way to defend with Vikings, but he won't know until he tests it out against Idra tomorrow.
Terran has an ability that increases production speed as well.
It still makes 2 hatch muta a semi-allin if you defend it without losing too many scvs you win.
I'm not talking about the speed that buildings produce units, I'm talking about producing the buildings themselves faster. 100% faster. Read the ability text carefully.
It's not semi-allin at all at this time, because Zerg has map control and can take a 3rd behind the Mutas. In order for Terran to defend (in theory) the Vikings can't leave the protection of Turrets and the Turrets can't be build everywhere on the map.
But all this is a moot point now that Hider has stated that Goliath's are being buffed tomorrow.
I know.
Whether you make the building faster or the unit faster makes no difference on how fast the first unit comes out.
I don't understand. You think that Zerg being able to morph Lair X2 as fast and Spire X2 as fast will make no difference as to what time Mutas come out? That this mechanic is comparable to the Terran's unit chrono? Because they're completely different things. One allows you to produce units faster, one allows you to tech faster. Getting up to tier 2 tech super fast is pretty different than pumping out tier 1 units faster. Especially consider that Queens also have the ability to spawn larva faster via inject.
The whole point of me pointing this out is to make clear that Starbow timings are probably going to differ from that of BW. There's no units and abilities and the engine is completely different.
For example
You make lair build faster by 1 second
You make spire build faster by 1 second
You make goliath build faster by 2 seconds
The relative speed at which the first mutas come out compared to the first goliath is the same. I'm not saying that's exactly the case but Terran can build units faster as well, so the faster muta timing isn't as much of an issue.
Yes it looks like he has it down perfectly atm. And for all intensive purposes it doesn't appear that Terran can defend against it at all.
But then again, Idra did say on stream that he feels silly making any balance suggestions for a game that's been out for a week.
"For all intents' purposes"
Also for the 2 hatch muta discussion- I thought the way to play mech (in bw) was to open with marines and medics plus turrets? I could be completely wrong here though. I saw flash once go cc first and then go all out on the defensive against mutas but he still lost to the mutas just picking him apart.
Again though, I could be completely off base here.
The way to open mech is usually 1 base factory, rush vulture and expand. Slow vultures can kite slow lings all day without getting hit so zerg needs to build static defense to not lose drones.
Other ways to open mech is - 2 fact speed/mines vultures (double expand or allin if zerg has no tech and map allows for it) - 14CC into 3 fact gols - Fantasy build - Reality (Hell) build
I think the 5 marine medic mech opening was something Baby (and only Baby) did a lot, he would open with 1 Rax fe, acad, 5 marine medic, and then either produce 1 vulture or go straight into goliaths. Sometimes he would get this wicked timing where zerg wouldn't build enough defense/units, and he would just waltz straight in with a handful of bio and a couple goliaths.
2 hatch muta is defendable but also very very powerful.
The problem is that this isn't an exact replica of Broodwar (as has been mentioned like 50 times in this thread no offense ) . . . Starbow is it's own game, as exemplified by the following unique ability:
Nurturing Swarm Energy: 25 Range: 7 Duration 15 s
Releases a cloud of nurturing insects at a targeted biological unit or structure, restoring 75 hitpoints to the target. If used on a morphing structure these insects will increase the structure's morph rate by 100% for 15 seconds.
Nurturing Swarm Queen ability allows for creating buildings way faster. Idra learned today that the spell can be chained to make hatcheries and spire build super fast. Because this ability can be chained and wall-offs are much easier in Starbow, 2-hatch Muta comes faster than in Broodwar. So fast, in fact, that BeastyQT didn't even have turrets up in time when he knew that this exact build was coming and he was specifically trying to beat it.
So basically, standard BW defense does not work here. BeastyQT thinks he's found a way to defend with Vikings, but he won't know until he tests it out against Idra tomorrow.
Terran has an ability that increases production speed as well.
It still makes 2 hatch muta a semi-allin if you defend it without losing too many scvs you win.
I'm not talking about the speed that buildings produce units, I'm talking about producing the buildings themselves faster. 100% faster. Read the ability text carefully.
It's not semi-allin at all at this time, because Zerg has map control and can take a 3rd behind the Mutas. In order for Terran to defend (in theory) the Vikings can't leave the protection of Turrets and the Turrets can't be build everywhere on the map.
But all this is a moot point now that Hider has stated that Goliath's are being buffed tomorrow.
I know.
Whether you make the building faster or the unit faster makes no difference on how fast the first unit comes out.
I don't understand. You think that Zerg being able to morph Lair X2 as fast and Spire X2 as fast will make no difference as to what time Mutas come out? That this mechanic is comparable to the Terran's unit chrono? Because they're completely different things. One allows you to produce units faster, one allows you to tech faster. Getting up to tier 2 tech super fast is pretty different than pumping out tier 1 units faster. Especially consider that Queens also have the ability to spawn larva faster via inject.
The whole point of me pointing this out is to make clear that Starbow timings are probably going to differ from that of BW. There's no units and abilities and the engine is completely different.
For example
You make lair build faster by 1 second
You make spire build faster by 1 second
You make goliath build faster by 2 seconds
The relative speed at which the first mutas come out compared to the first goliath is the same. I'm not saying that's exactly the case but Terran can build units faster as well, so the faster muta timing isn't as much of an issue.
I made some edits to my above post just fyi.
Well, it doesn't make any difference anyhow at this point because Goliath's are getting buffed tomorrow and will probably have a radical affect on Muta rush.
Nurturing Swarm seems very hard to balance (concerning zerg tech), wouldn't it be better to nerf it instead of balancing the game around it? I would also like to know what the dev team thinks about the macro mechanics (if they are hard enough for example).
Jesus its been a week people, enough about balance already. Just let things pan out a little bit..
edit: as long as the game is still fun to play (as many have attested to) stop worrying so much about it. Its not like there is money on the line or anything.
On January 21 2014 02:14 Piy wrote: Are you going to put the ability to Muta spread back into the game? Zerg has a hard time against mech when Terran can counter Mutas so efficiently. They can't adequately force goliaths since 2-3 vessels destroy a muta cloud in seconds because the mutas naturally bunch up.
This isn't a question of infinite selection, mutas are fine to deal with for terran regardless of Terran's composition, it's a question of zerg having a core unit in it's anti-mech composition back in the game. I think it would also solve a lot of the rage about Irradiate, which tbh I think probably is too strong in a mech composition right now as it effectively negates muta.
Is there a way to spread them I'm not seeing?
You need to make a tech transition once irradiate comes out, stop making mutalisks and start making lurkers/defilers.
On January 21 2014 01:18 Plansix wrote: Starbow is just one of many mods out there. It gets as much attention as every other mod. Starbow is just one of many small communities in SC2.
Yeah, every small mod in SC2 arcades has 3500 viewers in their first tournament.
On January 21 2014 01:18 Plansix wrote: Starbow is just one of many mods out there. It gets as much attention as every other mod. Starbow is just one of many small communities in SC2.
Yeah, every small mod in SC2 arcades has 3500 viewers in their first tournament.
Of only 500$ and not much Pro's on it.. So many people trying to bitch SB don´t know why..
On January 21 2014 01:18 Plansix wrote: Starbow is just one of many mods out there. It gets as much attention as every other mod. Starbow is just one of many small communities in SC2.
Yeah, every small mod in SC2 arcades has 3500 viewers in their first tournament.
Of only 500$ and not much Pro's on it.. So many people trying to bitch SB don´t know why..
They are jelly stream up for those who are interested ^.^
EPT
