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On January 12 2014 17:25 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 03:11 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? A nd yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. LoL - "They don't type the words I like, so they don't play the game. Period. Its fact now because the word don't say exactly what I want them too." DK plays ladder. He always has and always will. On January 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. Does Ensemble Studios run a game that is the livelihood of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of individuals? Do you understand the significance of potentially breaking the game and sending win rates plummeting for one race? Do you understand that if some players suddenly became unable to win anything, online cups or premier tournaments, they would have to retire to be able to make a living? Well they made the new Age of Empires III, that hot new RTS that took the world by storm. Three things here. First, I had nothing to do with AOE3, I helped design and balance Age of Mythology. Yea I'm old. Considering you posted TWO HUNDRED times in the last week, you are likely a teen that has no idea what that game is. Second, back in those days, a good 13ish years ago, Esports was nothing but a dream. Nobody made their living off of games, aside from maybe the very best SC1 players only in Korea. I only made my living off of games because I got hired by a game company after winning a couple of big tournaments. There were no teams, there were no sponsors, there were no leagues. Don't start spewing about times that you have no idea about. Third, them "not saying the words I don't like" has nothing to do with anything. Them NOT PLAYING ANY TERRAN on ladder sure does. DK plays zerg, and this is common knowledge. Why don't we see some REAL examples of balance if he plays Terran, IE some reps? Or some Terran perspective of his PERSONAL experience? Because he doesn't. That's why chief. Now I know you took a while to read this, and I don't want to keep you, so now you can go back to posting every 15 minutes.
Considering you claim that you are "old", your post makes you seem like the kid here :/
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Just one point, I am quite sure DK (like DB) plays random. DB mentioned it a WOL interview that the pro design and balance team, while they may have a race that they like, all play random. Apparently it is Blizzard policy.
Of course, DK may like Zerg the most. I have no idea. He did used to wear Terran t-shirts in WOL - if that means anything. I think his more recent interviews has him in a Zerg t-shirt. Never a Protoss t-shirt though...
And yes, that last was intentionally a little facetious.
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david kim said he was gm with all three races-,-
if this iron_ guy really was a balance tester of AoM he must be either really high/drunk or just incredably retarted-,-
the conditions that AoM existed under and what the current sc has today are TOTALLY diffrent-,- I can't understand how you would be able a game to what is more dead at its prime that what AoE2 is today.....
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On January 12 2014 17:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 17:25 Iron_ wrote:On January 12 2014 03:11 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? A nd yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. LoL - "They don't type the words I like, so they don't play the game. Period. Its fact now because the word don't say exactly what I want them too." DK plays ladder. He always has and always will. On January 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. Does Ensemble Studios run a game that is the livelihood of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of individuals? Do you understand the significance of potentially breaking the game and sending win rates plummeting for one race? Do you understand that if some players suddenly became unable to win anything, online cups or premier tournaments, they would have to retire to be able to make a living? Well they made the new Age of Empires III, that hot new RTS that took the world by storm. Three things here. First, I had nothing to do with AOE3, I helped design and balance Age of Mythology. Yea I'm old. Considering you posted TWO HUNDRED times in the last week, you are likely a teen that has no idea what that game is. Second, back in those days, a good 13ish years ago, Esports was nothing but a dream. Nobody made their living off of games, aside from maybe the very best SC1 players only in Korea. I only made my living off of games because I got hired by a game company after winning a couple of big tournaments. There were no teams, there were no sponsors, there were no leagues. Don't start spewing about times that you have no idea about. Third, them "not saying the words I don't like" has nothing to do with anything. Them NOT PLAYING ANY TERRAN on ladder sure does. DK plays zerg, and this is common knowledge. Why don't we see some REAL examples of balance if he plays Terran, IE some reps? Or some Terran perspective of his PERSONAL experience? Because he doesn't. That's why chief. Now I know you took a while to read this, and I don't want to keep you, so now you can go back to posting every 15 minutes. Considering you claim that you are "old", your post makes you seem like the kid here :/
Care to extrapolate on that? What about my 3 paragraph statement makes me look like a "kid"? You likely think it was my apparent dig at him posting every 15 minutes, but I actually did math before I wrote that. In order to post 200 times in a week, you actually would need to be at your computer for a full 8 hour day posting every 15 minutes every day. Do you NOT believe that Blizzard people should post from actual personal experience? What about that does not make sense?
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On January 12 2014 17:52 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 17:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 12 2014 17:25 Iron_ wrote:On January 12 2014 03:11 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? A nd yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. LoL - "They don't type the words I like, so they don't play the game. Period. Its fact now because the word don't say exactly what I want them too." DK plays ladder. He always has and always will. On January 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. Does Ensemble Studios run a game that is the livelihood of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of individuals? Do you understand the significance of potentially breaking the game and sending win rates plummeting for one race? Do you understand that if some players suddenly became unable to win anything, online cups or premier tournaments, they would have to retire to be able to make a living? Well they made the new Age of Empires III, that hot new RTS that took the world by storm. Three things here. First, I had nothing to do with AOE3, I helped design and balance Age of Mythology. Yea I'm old. Considering you posted TWO HUNDRED times in the last week, you are likely a teen that has no idea what that game is. Second, back in those days, a good 13ish years ago, Esports was nothing but a dream. Nobody made their living off of games, aside from maybe the very best SC1 players only in Korea. I only made my living off of games because I got hired by a game company after winning a couple of big tournaments. There were no teams, there were no sponsors, there were no leagues. Don't start spewing about times that you have no idea about. Third, them "not saying the words I don't like" has nothing to do with anything. Them NOT PLAYING ANY TERRAN on ladder sure does. DK plays zerg, and this is common knowledge. Why don't we see some REAL examples of balance if he plays Terran, IE some reps? Or some Terran perspective of his PERSONAL experience? Because he doesn't. That's why chief. Now I know you took a while to read this, and I don't want to keep you, so now you can go back to posting every 15 minutes. Considering you claim that you are "old", your post makes you seem like the kid here :/ Care to extrapolate on that? What about my 3 paragraph statement makes me look like a "kid"? You likely think it was my apparent dig at him posting every 15 minutes, but I actually did math before I wrote that. In order to post 200 times in a week, you actually would need to be at your computer for a full 8 hour day posting every 15 minutes every day. Do you NOT believe that Blizzard people should post from actual personal experience? What about that does not make sense?
the fact that your pushing your statement so far forward without any solid arguments make you look like a "kid"
and why should people from blizzard exatly speak from experiance if they have a giant stream of information from the best players who know the game most likely FAR BETTER then them selfs?
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On January 12 2014 17:52 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 17:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 12 2014 17:25 Iron_ wrote:On January 12 2014 03:11 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? A nd yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. LoL - "They don't type the words I like, so they don't play the game. Period. Its fact now because the word don't say exactly what I want them too." DK plays ladder. He always has and always will. On January 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. Does Ensemble Studios run a game that is the livelihood of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of individuals? Do you understand the significance of potentially breaking the game and sending win rates plummeting for one race? Do you understand that if some players suddenly became unable to win anything, online cups or premier tournaments, they would have to retire to be able to make a living? Well they made the new Age of Empires III, that hot new RTS that took the world by storm. Three things here. First, I had nothing to do with AOE3, I helped design and balance Age of Mythology. Yea I'm old. Considering you posted TWO HUNDRED times in the last week, you are likely a teen that has no idea what that game is. Second, back in those days, a good 13ish years ago, Esports was nothing but a dream. Nobody made their living off of games, aside from maybe the very best SC1 players only in Korea. I only made my living off of games because I got hired by a game company after winning a couple of big tournaments. There were no teams, there were no sponsors, there were no leagues. Don't start spewing about times that you have no idea about. Third, them "not saying the words I don't like" has nothing to do with anything. Them NOT PLAYING ANY TERRAN on ladder sure does. DK plays zerg, and this is common knowledge. Why don't we see some REAL examples of balance if he plays Terran, IE some reps? Or some Terran perspective of his PERSONAL experience? Because he doesn't. That's why chief. Now I know you took a while to read this, and I don't want to keep you, so now you can go back to posting every 15 minutes. Considering you claim that you are "old", your post makes you seem like the kid here :/ Care to extrapolate on that? What about my 3 paragraph statement makes me look like a "kid"? You likely think it was my apparent dig at him posting every 15 minutes, but I actually did math before I wrote that. In order to post 200 times in a week, you actually would need to be at your computer for a full 8 hour day posting every 15 minutes every day. Do you NOT believe that Blizzard people should post from actual personal experience? What about that does not make sense?
I don't see why you would feel the need to "attack" him with something like that and call him out (even though he won't feel that way probably).
And no i don't think you have to play the game to understand it, even if it helps ofc.
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On January 12 2014 17:55 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 17:52 Iron_ wrote:On January 12 2014 17:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 12 2014 17:25 Iron_ wrote:On January 12 2014 03:11 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? A nd yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. LoL - "They don't type the words I like, so they don't play the game. Period. Its fact now because the word don't say exactly what I want them too." DK plays ladder. He always has and always will. On January 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. Does Ensemble Studios run a game that is the livelihood of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of individuals? Do you understand the significance of potentially breaking the game and sending win rates plummeting for one race? Do you understand that if some players suddenly became unable to win anything, online cups or premier tournaments, they would have to retire to be able to make a living? Well they made the new Age of Empires III, that hot new RTS that took the world by storm. Three things here. First, I had nothing to do with AOE3, I helped design and balance Age of Mythology. Yea I'm old. Considering you posted TWO HUNDRED times in the last week, you are likely a teen that has no idea what that game is. Second, back in those days, a good 13ish years ago, Esports was nothing but a dream. Nobody made their living off of games, aside from maybe the very best SC1 players only in Korea. I only made my living off of games because I got hired by a game company after winning a couple of big tournaments. There were no teams, there were no sponsors, there were no leagues. Don't start spewing about times that you have no idea about. Third, them "not saying the words I don't like" has nothing to do with anything. Them NOT PLAYING ANY TERRAN on ladder sure does. DK plays zerg, and this is common knowledge. Why don't we see some REAL examples of balance if he plays Terran, IE some reps? Or some Terran perspective of his PERSONAL experience? Because he doesn't. That's why chief. Now I know you took a while to read this, and I don't want to keep you, so now you can go back to posting every 15 minutes. Considering you claim that you are "old", your post makes you seem like the kid here :/ Care to extrapolate on that? What about my 3 paragraph statement makes me look like a "kid"? You likely think it was my apparent dig at him posting every 15 minutes, but I actually did math before I wrote that. In order to post 200 times in a week, you actually would need to be at your computer for a full 8 hour day posting every 15 minutes every day. Do you NOT believe that Blizzard people should post from actual personal experience? What about that does not make sense? the fact that your pushing your statement so far forward without any solid arguments make you look like a "kid" and why should people from blizzard exatly speak from experiance if they have a giant stream of information from the best players who know the game most likely FAR BETTER then them selfs?
Ahh, I push my information kind of like Blizzard pushes their information with stats from a system that makes certain that everybody is right about 50% win percentage? Is their argument that ladder is right about 50% a "solid argument"? They should speak from experience because... you know... that's kind of their job.
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On January 12 2014 17:59 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 17:55 sabas123 wrote:On January 12 2014 17:52 Iron_ wrote:On January 12 2014 17:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 12 2014 17:25 Iron_ wrote:On January 12 2014 03:11 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? A nd yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. LoL - "They don't type the words I like, so they don't play the game. Period. Its fact now because the word don't say exactly what I want them too." DK plays ladder. He always has and always will. On January 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:
[quote]
Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what.
It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"?
Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. Does Ensemble Studios run a game that is the livelihood of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of individuals? Do you understand the significance of potentially breaking the game and sending win rates plummeting for one race? Do you understand that if some players suddenly became unable to win anything, online cups or premier tournaments, they would have to retire to be able to make a living? Well they made the new Age of Empires III, that hot new RTS that took the world by storm. Three things here. First, I had nothing to do with AOE3, I helped design and balance Age of Mythology. Yea I'm old. Considering you posted TWO HUNDRED times in the last week, you are likely a teen that has no idea what that game is. Second, back in those days, a good 13ish years ago, Esports was nothing but a dream. Nobody made their living off of games, aside from maybe the very best SC1 players only in Korea. I only made my living off of games because I got hired by a game company after winning a couple of big tournaments. There were no teams, there were no sponsors, there were no leagues. Don't start spewing about times that you have no idea about. Third, them "not saying the words I don't like" has nothing to do with anything. Them NOT PLAYING ANY TERRAN on ladder sure does. DK plays zerg, and this is common knowledge. Why don't we see some REAL examples of balance if he plays Terran, IE some reps? Or some Terran perspective of his PERSONAL experience? Because he doesn't. That's why chief. Now I know you took a while to read this, and I don't want to keep you, so now you can go back to posting every 15 minutes. Considering you claim that you are "old", your post makes you seem like the kid here :/ Care to extrapolate on that? What about my 3 paragraph statement makes me look like a "kid"? You likely think it was my apparent dig at him posting every 15 minutes, but I actually did math before I wrote that. In order to post 200 times in a week, you actually would need to be at your computer for a full 8 hour day posting every 15 minutes every day. Do you NOT believe that Blizzard people should post from actual personal experience? What about that does not make sense? the fact that your pushing your statement so far forward without any solid arguments make you look like a "kid" and why should people from blizzard exatly speak from experiance if they have a giant stream of information from the best players who know the game most likely FAR BETTER then them selfs? Ahh, I push my information kind of like Blizzard pushes their information with stats from a system that makes certain that everybody is right about 50% win percentage? Is their argument that ladder is right about 50% a "solid argument"? They should speak from experience because... you know... that's kind of their job.
they weren't pushing any information lol? they just made it public and let everybody have it opinions about it and sometimes it looks like they even listen. you on the other hand just only care about defending your stuff without any argument besides that you think you will look the same way blizzard does.
and besides their job is too balance the game then why would you even care your own exeriance if you could have to top players balance it for you if the top level of competition is your focus.
besides why are you attacking blizzard so much that they don't know anything from experiance when you base this of solely of ONE person....... we have NO IDEA what goes on behind the scenes.... so please stop whining about how they do their job. especially after showing that you aren't really taking the pro scene into account.
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On January 12 2014 17:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 17:52 Iron_ wrote:On January 12 2014 17:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 12 2014 17:25 Iron_ wrote:On January 12 2014 03:11 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? A nd yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. LoL - "They don't type the words I like, so they don't play the game. Period. Its fact now because the word don't say exactly what I want them too." DK plays ladder. He always has and always will. On January 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. Does Ensemble Studios run a game that is the livelihood of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of individuals? Do you understand the significance of potentially breaking the game and sending win rates plummeting for one race? Do you understand that if some players suddenly became unable to win anything, online cups or premier tournaments, they would have to retire to be able to make a living? Well they made the new Age of Empires III, that hot new RTS that took the world by storm. Three things here. First, I had nothing to do with AOE3, I helped design and balance Age of Mythology. Yea I'm old. Considering you posted TWO HUNDRED times in the last week, you are likely a teen that has no idea what that game is. Second, back in those days, a good 13ish years ago, Esports was nothing but a dream. Nobody made their living off of games, aside from maybe the very best SC1 players only in Korea. I only made my living off of games because I got hired by a game company after winning a couple of big tournaments. There were no teams, there were no sponsors, there were no leagues. Don't start spewing about times that you have no idea about. Third, them "not saying the words I don't like" has nothing to do with anything. Them NOT PLAYING ANY TERRAN on ladder sure does. DK plays zerg, and this is common knowledge. Why don't we see some REAL examples of balance if he plays Terran, IE some reps? Or some Terran perspective of his PERSONAL experience? Because he doesn't. That's why chief. Now I know you took a while to read this, and I don't want to keep you, so now you can go back to posting every 15 minutes. Considering you claim that you are "old", your post makes you seem like the kid here :/ Care to extrapolate on that? What about my 3 paragraph statement makes me look like a "kid"? You likely think it was my apparent dig at him posting every 15 minutes, but I actually did math before I wrote that. In order to post 200 times in a week, you actually would need to be at your computer for a full 8 hour day posting every 15 minutes every day. Do you NOT believe that Blizzard people should post from actual personal experience? What about that does not make sense? I don't see why you would feel the need to "attack" him with something like that and call him out (even though he won't feel that way probably). And no i don't think you have to play the game to understand it, even if it helps ofc.
He attacked me, and so I shot back. Just like you shot an attack at me with a one sentence statement calling me a "kid". It is what it is I guess.
I do agree with you that you can understand the game without playing. I do also believe however, that you understand the flow and pulse of the game (IE how "fun" it is), if you play... particularly if you play a lot as all races. I personally would feel a lot better if there was some personal Terran experience posted by Blizzard (and of course as Toss and Zerg as well, but I am speaking specifically on the current TvP situation right now).
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On January 12 2014 05:27 Plansix wrote:
Not at all. If someone likes something more that SC2, that's fine. Its all personal opinion. The people who run around claiming it is "objectively better than SC2" just amuse me.
not quite.
Intellivision Baseball is "objectively better" than Atari Home Run Baseball
Namco Pacman is "objectively better" than Atari 2600 Pacman... and so forth.
"objectively",
early game action in RA2, KW, and RA3 is better than SC2.
We have Artosis and Tasteless running out of jokes to tell in the first 90 seconds of matches.
RA2 still has an active and evolving chinese scene
i wonder who the game designer was. 
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On January 12 2014 17:41 aZealot wrote:
Just one point, I am quite sure DK (like DB) plays random. DB mentioned it a WOL interview that the pro design and balance team, while they may have a race that they like, all play random. Apparently it is Blizzard policy.
Of course, DK may like Zerg the most. I have no idea. He did used to wear Terran t-shirts in WOL - if that means anything. I think his more recent interviews has him in a Zerg t-shirt. Never a Protoss t-shirt though...
And yes, that last was intentionally a little facetious.
They were wearing Terran shirts during WOL (Terran expansion) and Zerg once shortly before and after HOTS (Zerg expansion) You are joking but there were people who thought Blizzard was biased towards Terran because of the shirts lol
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On January 12 2014 17:52 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 17:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 12 2014 17:25 Iron_ wrote:On January 12 2014 03:11 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? A nd yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. LoL - "They don't type the words I like, so they don't play the game. Period. Its fact now because the word don't say exactly what I want them too." DK plays ladder. He always has and always will. On January 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. Does Ensemble Studios run a game that is the livelihood of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of individuals? Do you understand the significance of potentially breaking the game and sending win rates plummeting for one race? Do you understand that if some players suddenly became unable to win anything, online cups or premier tournaments, they would have to retire to be able to make a living? Well they made the new Age of Empires III, that hot new RTS that took the world by storm. Three things here. First, I had nothing to do with AOE3, I helped design and balance Age of Mythology. Yea I'm old. Considering you posted TWO HUNDRED times in the last week, you are likely a teen that has no idea what that game is. Second, back in those days, a good 13ish years ago, Esports was nothing but a dream. Nobody made their living off of games, aside from maybe the very best SC1 players only in Korea. I only made my living off of games because I got hired by a game company after winning a couple of big tournaments. There were no teams, there were no sponsors, there were no leagues. Don't start spewing about times that you have no idea about. Third, them "not saying the words I don't like" has nothing to do with anything. Them NOT PLAYING ANY TERRAN on ladder sure does. DK plays zerg, and this is common knowledge. Why don't we see some REAL examples of balance if he plays Terran, IE some reps? Or some Terran perspective of his PERSONAL experience? Because he doesn't. That's why chief. Now I know you took a while to read this, and I don't want to keep you, so now you can go back to posting every 15 minutes. Considering you claim that you are "old", your post makes you seem like the kid here :/ Care to extrapolate on that? What about my 3 paragraph statement makes me look like a "kid"? You likely think it was my apparent dig at him posting every 15 minutes, but I actually did math before I wrote that. In order to post 200 times in a week, you actually would need to be at your computer for a full 8 hour day posting every 15 minutes every day. Do you NOT believe that Blizzard people should post from actual personal experience? What about that does not make sense?
It would be, to put it mildly, incalculably stupid for Blizzard to make any balance changes based on their personal experience with the game. The only data that should matter for balancing concerns are premier tournaments (primarily WCS Korea), Proleague and the GSTL. That's it. For balance purposes it should matter not at all that players from gold to the tippy top of EU GM have trouble with particular matchups. None of those players plays at a high enough level to affect the tournament outcomes that balance decisions are made to address.
Now changes to the game are also made to make the game more fun. Here Blizzard's experience and knowledge about what makes something fun or not fun is relevant as is the experience of everyone else who plays the game. But if they don't post or make changes based on actual experience and instead try their best to do things that respond to community concerns then I don't see an issue with that.
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On January 13 2014 04:01 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 17:52 Iron_ wrote:On January 12 2014 17:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 12 2014 17:25 Iron_ wrote:On January 12 2014 03:11 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? A nd yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. LoL - "They don't type the words I like, so they don't play the game. Period. Its fact now because the word don't say exactly what I want them too." DK plays ladder. He always has and always will. On January 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On January 12 2014 02:17 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 13:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 11 2014 13:32 Iron_ wrote:On January 11 2014 12:44 Azelja wrote:
I really don't get why they still post the winratios of any league other than GM or high profile tournaments.
Of course they are going to be close to 50%, that's how you designed the ladder, so that everyone aside from the top dogs have an even win/loss ratio! That doesn't tell us anything about balance o_O What the hell?! Yes sir, I think just about every non protoss fan boy in this thread is screaming this same thing. DK's post came off as condescending and was certainly full of useless stats from a system designed to make everybody 50% no matter what. It is VERY obvious that they are not working on SC2 anymore, and have completely moved on to their MOBA game. When is the last time you heard someone over at Blizzard say "So I was PLAYING TERRAN ON LADDER and here is what I think!"? Yea.... exactly. They haven't played this game in quite some time. Wow, the shit people make up to whine gets ridiculous... David Kim says he plays ladder like every single time he goes on a live chat. And the last one was Unfiltered from like...a couple months ago? And even if no one said "I play ladder", that clearly means that they don't have any staff that plays/tests/monitors the games... So please stop pulling bullshit from your ass. So David Kim said..... TWO months ago.... that he played some zerg on ladder? This is relevant to the current broken as hell PvT as of today how? And yes, the fact that *nobody* at Blizzard refers to the game from a player perspective DOES in fact mean to me that they are not playing the game. There is no other reason to do nothing but spew irrelevant stats in mass to justify a broken situation. When I balanced professionally for Ensemble studios, we understood that the feel of the game and the player experience was every bit as important as some pile of stats. It seems quite obvious that is more important to the game's longevity than "50%" is. If they do not speak from a players perspective (in this case a Terran players perspective) than they do not understand the pulse of this game. Does Ensemble Studios run a game that is the livelihood of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of individuals? Do you understand the significance of potentially breaking the game and sending win rates plummeting for one race? Do you understand that if some players suddenly became unable to win anything, online cups or premier tournaments, they would have to retire to be able to make a living? Well they made the new Age of Empires III, that hot new RTS that took the world by storm. Three things here. First, I had nothing to do with AOE3, I helped design and balance Age of Mythology. Yea I'm old. Considering you posted TWO HUNDRED times in the last week, you are likely a teen that has no idea what that game is. Second, back in those days, a good 13ish years ago, Esports was nothing but a dream. Nobody made their living off of games, aside from maybe the very best SC1 players only in Korea. I only made my living off of games because I got hired by a game company after winning a couple of big tournaments. There were no teams, there were no sponsors, there were no leagues. Don't start spewing about times that you have no idea about. Third, them "not saying the words I don't like" has nothing to do with anything. Them NOT PLAYING ANY TERRAN on ladder sure does. DK plays zerg, and this is common knowledge. Why don't we see some REAL examples of balance if he plays Terran, IE some reps? Or some Terran perspective of his PERSONAL experience? Because he doesn't. That's why chief. Now I know you took a while to read this, and I don't want to keep you, so now you can go back to posting every 15 minutes. Considering you claim that you are "old", your post makes you seem like the kid here :/ Care to extrapolate on that? What about my 3 paragraph statement makes me look like a "kid"? You likely think it was my apparent dig at him posting every 15 minutes, but I actually did math before I wrote that. In order to post 200 times in a week, you actually would need to be at your computer for a full 8 hour day posting every 15 minutes every day. Do you NOT believe that Blizzard people should post from actual personal experience? What about that does not make sense? It would be, to put it mildly, incalculably stupid for Blizzard to make any balance changes based on their personal experience with the game. The only data that should matter for balancing concerns are premier tournaments (primarily WCS Korea), Proleague and the GSTL. That's it. For balance purposes it should matter not at all that players from gold to the tippy top of EU GM have trouble with particular matchups. None of those players plays at a high enough level to affect the tournament outcomes that balance decisions are made to address. Now changes to the game are also made to make the game more fun. Here Blizzard's experience and knowledge about what makes something fun or not fun is relevant as is the experience of everyone else who plays the game. But if they don't post or make changes based on actual experience and instead try their best to do things that respond to community concerns then I don't see an issue with that.
You may say that, but Blizzard themselves have stated that they want balance to be reflected in lower leagues, as well as higher ones. This is why the effectiveness of their MMR system is as, if not more, important to them as actual static balance and dynamic balance decisions. I believe that their position was not to publicize the information for us to each make our own decision, but to publicize the information to corroborate with their decision; the decision to do nothing for the time being.
It wouldn't be incalculably stupid to make balance changes based on personal experience considering their actual objective: balance across all leagues. The only thing that invalidates that in your mind would be their lack of skill. Their understanding of the game should be equal to if not greater than that of a pro or coach. For fuck's sake, it's their job!
However, it would be stupid to accept the validity of statistics that come from a self-balancing system like MMR as indications that the game is balanced. The system is designed to reflect an approximately accurate balance regardless of player skill or race power. You go upward until you're about 50/50, and then you stop. Simply put, they're happy as long as their match-making is able to consistently produce results that fall within their range, and it pretty much always will.
Tournaments can also be a very broken metric. A player like Jaedong playing in NA isn't going to have the same results as Scarlett, just because they both play Zerg. If Jaedong has no actual competition that can beat him, it makes Zerg look overpowered. This kind of player skill gap is exactly what the ladder statistics try to ignore.
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Northern Ireland27305 Posts
Its never just been about the game being balanced, Blizz want their game to be entertaining both to play and watch and have frequently said as such.
Ideally these all go hand-in-hand, but I'd trade 50/50 parity for a more enjoyable experience in a heartbeat
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I think what was needed for the SC2 scene to strive was more non-korean pro gamers being more successful.
I would go as far to say that if more foreign players participated in the early stages of GSL (and dare I say won a few GSL tournaments), then I believe the whole scene would be completely different than it is today. GSL should of just fixed some matches to make people like Idra or Jinro win some matches (then again the outbreak of match fixing would of killed GSL itself).
But yes, I think what we needed was a balance of teams from every country to be at the same level. It seems now, it is now completely dominated by koreans and personally I like watching koreans playing but its always the koreans that dominate the main tournaments (with a few exception).
I want to see someone non-korean break into the Korean SC2 scene and sweeping them all and taking a Korean title for once!!
I think Blizzard tried to make the game easier by simplifying tasks of macro and micro, but the handicap given to us also applied to the koreans so we really had no edge in closing the skill gap .
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The game would not be better because foreigners won stuff. You cannot build the game on personalities, esports careers are short and often highly unstable. They will retire, and then your flaccid product will simply collapse. The game HAS to be good enough on its own to survive, it has to be bigger than any player. Koreans will be the dominant country for the lifespan of this game, that's something we knew before WoL beta was relased. BW was dominated by Koreans for 10+ years, but foreigners watched anyway, because the game was so incredibly good. SC2 has to have that allure too, but it just doesn't.
I know that for my part, I watch mostly because of some players, mostly ex BW guys whose careers I've followed for 6-7 years, and one or two newcomers I found to be cool and/or endearing. When those guys quit, my interest in this game goes with them. If a majority of the fan base has that attitude, that is not a sustainable product.
And did you seriously suggest match fixing?
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On January 13 2014 08:03 Squat wrote:
The game would not be better because foreigners won stuff. You cannot build the game on personalities, esports careers are short and often highly unstable. They will retire, and then your flaccid product will simply collapse. The game HAS to be good enough on its own to survive, it has to be bigger than any player. Koreans will be the dominant country for the lifespan of this game, that's something we knew before WoL beta was relased. BW was dominated by Koreans for 10+ years, but foreigners watched anyway, because the game was so incredibly good. SC2 has to have that allure too, but it just doesn't.
obviously the game being good is good (duh), but i dunno if you're right about that. look at wrestling - no one thinks it's "real fighting," but it's popular becaue of personalities, storylines, drama, production, etc. do i like wrestling? do i want sc2 to be wrestling? no, but there are people out there with different tastes. i dunno if sc2 "can't" survive without being the best possible game
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What kind of mech changes has been discussed by davie? I only saw that they wanted to change something about the tanks damage to armored, was there any reason for it not to be implemented?
Also, is there a summary of the history of balance updates available?
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On January 13 2014 08:30 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 08:03 Squat wrote:
The game would not be better because foreigners won stuff. You cannot build the game on personalities, esports careers are short and often highly unstable. They will retire, and then your flaccid product will simply collapse. The game HAS to be good enough on its own to survive, it has to be bigger than any player. Koreans will be the dominant country for the lifespan of this game, that's something we knew before WoL beta was relased. BW was dominated by Koreans for 10+ years, but foreigners watched anyway, because the game was so incredibly good. SC2 has to have that allure too, but it just doesn't. obviously the game being good is good (duh), but i dunno if you're right about that. look at wrestling - no one thinks it's "real fighting," but it's popular becaue of personalities, storylines, drama, production, etc. do i like wrestling? do i want sc2 to be wrestling? no, but there are people out there with different tastes. i dunno if sc2 "can't" survive without being the best possible game
In wrestling, the personalities, the storylines etc ARE the product, just as much as the actual in physical performance. It's much more like a movie than a video game. What matters is the quality of the product, not its nature. For a game, gameplay comes first, because if that is bad, everything else is just polishing a turd.
SC2 does not have to be perfect, it just has to be good enough. Some might say it already is, some might not. But apparently there are enough people who don't think it is to cause the viewer base to stagnate, player base to evaporate and sponsors to run for the hills. If the game was truly that good, this conversation would not be taking place.
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On January 13 2014 08:31 cheekymonkey wrote:
What kind of mech changes has been discussed by davie? I only saw that they wanted to change something about the tanks damage to armored, was there any reason for it not to be implemented?
Also, is there a summary of the history of balance updates available?
The only armored ground unit tanks struggle with is the Immortal, which is not gonna be fixed by +damage v armored.
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EPT
