HyuN posted the following message about his situation with Quantic. (Korean original) DailyDot reported earlier that Quantic owner Simon Boudreault had dropped off the radar, leaving former players hanging.
Hello, this is HyuN.
I began my contract with Quantic on January 28th and have spent the last year with them. Because the team was in a special situation where it formed from a merger of many teams, it was in an unstable state where one of the owners left as I was playing for the team.
Simon would always buy tickets late, even though you could get them cheaper if you bought them earlier, and he even bought me business class tickets to IEM Shanghai because I had just won DreamHack (even though he had already bought tickets). Even in the case of hotels, there were times I wondered if it was too expensive.
Since when I started to notice these things, Simon was always late to respond to me. It wasn't a big nuisiance for me to have flights booked late, but he would always respond late and would lie about having booked flights when he had not, booking them when the time for the tournament had almost come. So, there was a lot of stress there.
In my final tournament schedule of HSC, Red Bull, and DH Winter, he always said he had booked the flights but in reality it was very tough because they would be booked one day before.
Also, at the time my salary had been delayed for a few months, and I had yet to receive prize money from three tournaments (DH Stockholm, DH Summer, DH Valencia). DreamHack has an invoice system, so the team would receive the money. In the end, IEM was the last time I saw Simon, and I wasn't able to see or chat with him since.
Before IEM, Simon told me he would give me my salary and DreamHack Prize money, and gave me an explaination. But it was always a lie. He always said he had sent the DreamHack prize money, but I heard he had actually used that money to support the LoL team. As for the reason he could not send the money, he said it was because according to Canadian law it was too large an amount to send, and said he would give me the money from the sponsors instead, but that was a lie as well. The sponsors didn't even know about this.
After my last scheduled events he went off the radar, except to occasionally leave a line saying that he would send the money. The money I should have received was 80,000 SEK from DreamHack winnings (about $12,500) and $26,400 (2,200 x 12) in salary, but I only received $2,200 x5, and after that $950 x5, leaving $10,650 I have not received. In total it's about $23,000 I have not received.
Simon has gone off the map, and there is no one to be held responsible. I'm regretting the year I spent taking countless flights, and I'm so stressed out I'm wondering why I spent eight years as a gamer. I don't know what to do, and it's been a while since I've played since I just can't bring myself to. If someone can't help me out, I might have to quit.
If I quit now, then I'm thankful to Simon for letting me finally rest after eight tough years of progaming. I'll never forget you!
A very large shame, HyuN's original asking price was quite high as well (back when Quantic was first reforming) I've met the owner once, amicable person, but my impression of him was mixed.
I'm unsurprised, as many are, about this however. It's just a real shame and he is definitely not the only one, even in staff, that's remained unpaid. Quantic never had a good reputation from the inside (pre-Mark Ferraz and current) and the players always carried the team name more than the organization itself.
Yet another player thats being fucked by his team, so why don't we have a union supported by Blizzard to keep players safe?
I doubt he's going to quit, any team would want him on their roster. Really unfortunate for Hyun but it's sad you saw it coming after the Massan incident.
edit: and haven't Robert stated on shows that they pay the players directly and not the teams?
Tournaments should really be paying to players..this kind of thing has happened so many times. Such a shitty thing to happen to HyuN, he doesn't deserve it.
this is terrible. but we cant blame dreamhack for this unless they have policy to pay the teams and not the player(which i doubt). its just seems like a horrible person took advantage of a very nice guy like hyun. which really makes me mad about this while thing
i hope hyun gets his money back he doesnt deserve this if u ever met him u would know how nice of a guy he is.
On January 01 2014 11:53 Gojira621 wrote: Hyun needs to hire a lawyer immediately. This is straight up theft. This guy can't disappear forever
He can disappear for a long time, he doesn't even really have to hide. Also, lawyers are expensive and trials can take years to finish. And even if HyuN can sue him successfully, there is a chance that Simon doesn't have the money anymore and can't give anything back.
What does the quantic manager think? Hide for some time and everyone will forget? This will have a legal afterplay, even if it takes months or years to find him.
Huh? Money is not given directly to the players? Okay well now I see where the big flaw is right now. Money should be given to the player and not to the team. I always thought it was given to the players directly after the tournament in the form of a cheque or transferred from one bank account to another. I think the way money is distributed by tournaments needs changing and especially after this incident.
After the initial problems, it sounds like it would've been better for him to have it arranged to that the tournaments payed him directly instead of through the team. Salary is problematic enough, but there's absolutely no reason he shouldn't have received his tournament winnings.
On January 01 2014 11:58 Genie1 wrote: Huh? Money is not given directly to the players? Okay well now I see where the big flaw is right now. Money should be given to the player and not to the team. I always thought it was given to the players directly after the tournament in the form of a cheque or transferred from one bank account to another. I think the way money is distributed by tournaments needs changing and especially after this incident.
Atleast MLG and IEM gives money to the players, Dreamhack seems not.
Contract fraud, this should be pursued in a criminal court or a claims court. Simon needs to be held accountable, this cannot be allowed to happen.What a complete douche.
On January 01 2014 11:58 Genie1 wrote: Huh? Money is not given directly to the players? Okay well now I see where the big flaw is right now. Money should be given to the player and not to the team. I always thought it was given to the players directly after the tournament in the form of a cheque or transferred from one bank account to another. I think the way money is distributed by tournaments needs changing and especially after this incident.
Atleast MLG and IEM gives money to the players, Dreamhack seems not.
Dreamhack should honor the prize money and give it to Hyun and then Dreamhack pursue legal action against Simon for fraud.
On January 01 2014 11:58 Genie1 wrote: Huh? Money is not given directly to the players? Okay well now I see where the big flaw is right now. Money should be given to the player and not to the team. I always thought it was given to the players directly after the tournament in the form of a cheque or transferred from one bank account to another. I think the way money is distributed by tournaments needs changing and especially after this incident.
Atleast MLG and IEM gives money to the players, Dreamhack seems not.
From what I understand reading it Hyun could have done it by himself, Dreamhack doesn't send you the money, you have to claim it. Quantic probably told Hyun it would be best if they did it for him.
On January 01 2014 11:58 Genie1 wrote: Huh? Money is not given directly to the players? Okay well now I see where the big flaw is right now. Money should be given to the player and not to the team. I always thought it was given to the players directly after the tournament in the form of a cheque or transferred from one bank account to another. I think the way money is distributed by tournaments needs changing and especially after this incident.
Atleast MLG and IEM gives money to the players, Dreamhack seems not.
Dreamhack should honor the prize money and give it to Hyun and then Dreamhack pursue legal action against Simon for fraud.
probably the only way for this to work out well for Hyun is to put pressure on the sponsors. they don't want shitty publicity and they have much more power to do something about it than Hyun does. so we need to send tweets and emails to Roccat, Alienware, and whoever else has an agreement with Quantic. if anyone knows Hyun personally or has contact with him, they should tell him to talk to the sponsors and document what is said.
Perhaps the TL community could try to raise a fund for Quantic gamers that have been cheated out of their money by the likes of Simon? Would be great if any major TL personalities decided to lead it
On January 01 2014 11:58 Genie1 wrote: Huh? Money is not given directly to the players? Okay well now I see where the big flaw is right now. Money should be given to the player and not to the team. I always thought it was given to the players directly after the tournament in the form of a cheque or transferred from one bank account to another. I think the way money is distributed by tournaments needs changing and especially after this incident.
Atleast MLG and IEM gives money to the players, Dreamhack seems not.
From what I understand reading it Hyun could have done it by himself, Dreamhack doesn't send you the money, you have to claim it. Quantic probably told Hyun it would be best if they did it for him.
Fair enough. Well now players know that they should do it themselves unless the organisation is really trustworthy and professional. (Which Quantic certainly hasn't been for a long time..)
I hope this all gets resolved I hate that things like this happen. I enjoy watching you play because it is unique. Good luck getting it resolved HyuN! You need and deserve it!
wow that is alot of money missing from Hyun's pocket...I don't think he will ever recover the full amount missing and I hope he doesn't retire because of this.
I am kinda glad it happen, put more pressure, exposure and accountability on the tournaments and teams with their policy regarding price money distribution , unfortunately Hyun has to be the poster boy. =(
On January 01 2014 12:11 NmExZeus wrote: Perhaps the TL community could try to raise a fund for Quantic gamers that have been cheated out of their money by the likes of Simon? Would be great if any major TL personalities decided to lead it
Doesn't Hyun have a contract that should guarantee he receives his money? It seems like he should be able to sue instead of just accept that he won't be paid and question his life decision of being a progamer...wtf
This is really shady what the guy is doing, then he just disappears. Sounds like a con artist. Hope Hyun doesn't retire and he can find a good team that will pay him his money that he works hard for. Hope he can get the money he is owed.
I really doubt the community can raise this fund and also Simon has any money left even if he is found. At this point we can only hope for some miracle by some of the well off esports personalities or hyun making right decision.
Disgusting, plain and simple. I'm frustrated at how a few e-sports teams continue to unravel and show themselves as corrupt and exploiting the players for their self-interest. As a HyuN fan, I can't believe someone would do this to him, or anyone else really. Hope this goes well for him, and for that Simon guy to get justice.
Now that I think about it, his stress over his salary and prize earnings might explain his poor showings lately. How else could you play with focus and effort if you are unable to discern if you are going to make a living off your job. Especially as a progamer for several years, it would be incredibly disappointing if he has to quit cause of a fraud.
Hyun, if you're reading this, you definitely need a lawyer, right now. If Simon Boudreault lives in Canada, you need a lawyer located in the same province of Canada where Boudreault is located. I see from the Daily Dot article that the IT firm he inherited is located in the province of Quebec, so I assume that's where Boudreault is located as well. In other words, you need a civil litigation lawyer located in the province of Quebec.
I realize it's depressing and demoralizing to be in your situation, but you must act quickly. There are time limits that apply to bringing the sort of lawsuit you'll need to commence to get the money owed to you and the longer you wait, the greater the risk that the relevant time limit will expire and you will have lost the opportunity to get what is owing to you.
I'm sure there are people who can recommend a Quebec lawyer to you. If not, you can contact me directly and I'll locate one for you. When you meet with your lawyer, be sure to bring every record you have of any agreement and any communication relating to the money that is owed to you.
ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but who knows how western wolves was handling their business, how love your girlfriend will be handling their business, maybe more transparency would help here, but in the end i am of the opinion that personal sponsorships are the way to go in sc2. of course i could be wrong but this is not the first time korean sc2 players got screwed by foreign teams.
Going to join the chorus here, someone please post Hyun's paypal, I'd like to donate to keep him going. Someone should also contact the RCMP on Hyun's behalf, maybe this is fraud under Canadian law?
SC2 scene is depressing as fuck these days, i dont give a shit about other games and how they're doing, i don't like those games, i just want a healthy scene in which stuff like this doesn't happen, at this point it almost feels not worth following the scene anymore, as sad as that is.
This was his last tweet on twitter. I'm surprised quantic management didn't look into it immediately after seeing this kind of tweet because If I saw this I would immediately find out what is going on.
That guy never sat straight in my mind - I've dealt with lots of flaky people and when I read that guy's conversation with MaSsan, my flake detectors were going nuts -__-
On January 01 2014 12:27 RiSkysc2 wrote: SC2 scene is depressing as fuck these days, i dont give a shit about other games and how they're doing, i don't like those games, i just want a healthy scene in which stuff like this doesn't happen, at this point it almost feels not worth following the scene anymore, as sad as that is.
Scam like this existed always, it existed in 2012, in 2011, in 2010 and before too. This is nothing new and happens more than you think.
On January 01 2014 11:58 Genie1 wrote: Huh? Money is not given directly to the players? Okay well now I see where the big flaw is right now. Money should be given to the player and not to the team. I always thought it was given to the players directly after the tournament in the form of a cheque or transferred from one bank account to another. I think the way money is distributed by tournaments needs changing and especially after this incident.
Simon convinced hyun saying that he can apply for tax waiver, so 15% less tax if it was done by team, whether this was truth or not.
On January 01 2014 12:22 ForcesEqualZero wrote: Going to join the chorus here, someone please post Hyun's paypal, I'd like to donate to keep him going. Someone should also contact the RCMP on Hyun's behalf, maybe this is fraud under Canadian law?
Lol. I dont think the RCMP has that authority in Quebec. I dont know if this would be fraud or if he is just another creditor of a business that went belly up...
But in all honesty, I dont think he will ever get his money back, sadly. It would probably involve him fronting massive amounts of cash to pay for a trial that takes forever at the other end of the globe in a language he doesnt understand. Meanwhile, fat fuck Boudreault would do his best to delay the procedure and make sure Hyun runs out of cash before they can get a verdict.
about the outcry on prize money: isnt it standard for korean teams to keep the majority of the prize money earned by a player?
On January 01 2014 12:11 NmExZeus wrote: Perhaps the TL community could try to raise a fund for Quantic gamers that have been cheated out of their money by the likes of Simon? Would be great if any major TL personalities decided to lead it
I would help if the fund was to pay for lawyers and shit to put this simon guy in jail.
On January 01 2014 12:34 Netsky wrote: Obviously this is a shitty situation for Hyun, but...
Is it standard practice for prize money to be sent to team/manager, rather than the player directly? Seems kinda fucked.
Already discussion about this but MLG and IEM does pay to the players directly, Dreamhack pays whoever claims it (as long as the claimer has rights) -- in this case, the team claimed it.
On January 01 2014 11:58 Genie1 wrote: Huh? Money is not given directly to the players? Okay well now I see where the big flaw is right now. Money should be given to the player and not to the team. I always thought it was given to the players directly after the tournament in the form of a cheque or transferred from one bank account to another. I think the way money is distributed by tournaments needs changing and especially after this incident.
Atleast MLG and IEM gives money to the players, Dreamhack seems not.
From what I understand reading it Hyun could have done it by himself, Dreamhack doesn't send you the money, you have to claim it. Quantic probably told Hyun it would be best if they did it for him.
On January 01 2014 12:27 RiSkysc2 wrote: SC2 scene is depressing as fuck these days, i dont give a shit about other games and how they're doing, i don't like those games, i just want a healthy scene in which stuff like this doesn't happen, at this point it almost feels not worth following the scene anymore, as sad as that is.
That's why we need a strong organization like KeSPA to protect and guarantee players' and owners' stakes, but they can only try to do it in Korea. We can never have a strong organization on international stage, unless SC2 grows into another tennis. How can a teenager with no money pursue a lawsuit against a businessman from a country on the other side of the world? Those money are most likely gone for Hyun, poor Hyun, liked him as a mediocre zerg for a long time in BW.
On January 01 2014 12:11 NmExZeus wrote: Perhaps the TL community could try to raise a fund for Quantic gamers that have been cheated out of their money by the likes of Simon? Would be great if any major TL personalities decided to lead it
I would help if the fund was to pay for lawyers and shit to put this simon guy in jail.
the team went bankrupt. are we gonna put everybody that goes bankrupt behind bars??? come on
the guy is a massive pos but its not a crime yet to be the retarded manager of your own business.
On January 01 2014 12:34 Netsky wrote: Obviously this is a shitty situation for Hyun, but...
Is it standard practice for prize money to be sent to team/manager, rather than the player directly? Seems kinda fucked.
Already discussion about this but MLG and IEM does pay to the players directly, Dreamhack pays whoever claims it (as long as claimer has rights) -- in this case, the team claimed it.
On January 01 2014 11:58 Genie1 wrote: Huh? Money is not given directly to the players? Okay well now I see where the big flaw is right now. Money should be given to the player and not to the team. I always thought it was given to the players directly after the tournament in the form of a cheque or transferred from one bank account to another. I think the way money is distributed by tournaments needs changing and especially after this incident.
Atleast MLG and IEM gives money to the players, Dreamhack seems not.
From what I understand reading it Hyun could have done it by himself, Dreamhack doesn't send you the money, you have to claim it. Quantic probably told Hyun it would be best if they did it for him.
Well it seems DreamHack needs to change there payout policy so that player is directly given the money.
This was his last tweet on twitter. I'm surprised quantic management didn't look into it immediately after seeing this kind of tweet because If I saw this I would immediately find out what is going on.
This tweet wasn't too out of place. One of their League of Legends players started a twitter thing of "Cursed Dreams and Broken Hearts" (https://twitter.com/Locodoco/status/409074189392293888) and this at just seemed like their manager parodying it after they lost their chance to join the LCS (the LoL equivalent to WCS).
First, this is absolutely awful what Quantic/Simon did to HyuN. This was after HyuN was vouching for Simon the whole time, even after what had happened to Massan and people were telling HyuN to get off that sketchy team but he told everyone that things were good and he was happy. In the end, this wasn't the case and whether HyuN decides to retire or not, I really hope he recoups some of his losses and leaves on a happier note.
Second, the hot topic after Unfiltered is the lack of infrastructure of esports in North America, but how can you even talk infrastructure when you have people like Simon of Quantic or Marco formerly with Speed? The problem isn't just infrastructure but also shady people screwing over progamers who give up so much and get burnt to the point where they give up. Better infrastructure needs to address this problem directly.
So......there is a guy managing players, handling the prize money and everything for a "big" team....and there is no one that has a reliable business contact(not even the real name)? And thats just one thing that comes to my mind... sounds like a blueprint of unprofessionalism to me. How can it be that such key positions between the parties aren't secured and controlled(answer is clear, for the "cpt obvious' out there")?
Sad for Hyun, also don't get why he didn't come up earlier with this.
On January 01 2014 12:11 NmExZeus wrote: Perhaps the TL community could try to raise a fund for Quantic gamers that have been cheated out of their money by the likes of Simon? Would be great if any major TL personalities decided to lead it
I would help if the fund was to pay for lawyers and shit to put this simon guy in jail.
the team went bankrupt. are we gonna put everybody that goes bankrupt behind bars??? come on
the guy is a massive pos but its not a crime yet to be the retarded manager of your own business.
it depends how the guy was cheated out of money. If it was just incompetent management that simply couldnt afford to pay the wages they promised thats one thing. If they somehow took the money that they didnt have the legal right to take, thats another. Anyway, sucks for Quantic. Maybe they can get a kickstarter going, if Catz can get enough money to run a house in California for a year youd think the 'community' would want to help Hyun out.
On January 01 2014 12:22 ForcesEqualZero wrote: Going to join the chorus here, someone please post Hyun's paypal, I'd like to donate to keep him going. Someone should also contact the RCMP on Hyun's behalf, maybe this is fraud under Canadian law?
Lol. I dont think the RCMP has that authority in Quebec. I dont know if this would be fraud or if he is just another creditor of a business that went belly up...
But in all honesty, I dont think he will ever get his money back, sadly. It would probably involve him fronting massive amounts of cash to pay for a trial that takes forever at the other end of the globe in a language he doesnt understand. Meanwhile, fat fuck Boudreault would do his best to delay the procedure and make sure Hyun runs out of cash before they can get a verdict.
about the outcry on prize money: isnt it standard for korean teams to keep the majority of the prize money earned by a player?
How he could be a creditor in this situation is quite insane. The prize money is his, not the team's right? Taking that from him is theft, is fraudulent behavior. RCMP, whomever, if what he did wasn't illegal, it's really sad.
omg, that is brutal... who are these so called "business men"... uhh, I see this in my line of work all the time... what a JOKE... liars are the worst... these little children need to grow up and learn some responsibility.
On January 01 2014 12:10 negativedge wrote: probably the only way for this to work out well for Hyun is to put pressure on the sponsors. they don't want shitty publicity and they have much more power to do something about it than Hyun does. so we need to send tweets and emails to Roccat, Alienware, and whoever else has an agreement with Quantic. if anyone knows Hyun personally or has contact with him, they should tell him to talk to the sponsors and document what is said.
I feel like I should repost this so it isn't at the bottom of a page. We need to contact the sponsors. They are not at fault, but they have the ability to do something about it.
I'm not even the slightest surprised unfortunately :/. What I'm surprised of is how anyone can still trust Quantic's owner and management team with all the shady business and odd rumours that have been surrounding Quantic for years (MasSan's case being the latest I'm reminded of).
On January 01 2014 12:41 ArcadeR wrote: So......there is a guy managing players, handling the prize money and everything for a "big" team....and there is no one that has a reliable business contact(not even the real name)? And thats just one thing that comes to my mind... sounds like a blueprint of unprofessionalism to me. How can it be that such key positions between the parties aren't secured and controlled(answer is clear, for the "cpt obvious' out there")?
Sad for Hyun, also don't get why he didn't come up earlier with this.
People know his real name. Simon Boudreault. He hasn't been some mysterious enigma - hell, I was just looking at his LinkedIn page. The thing is, even if you are well know and famous you can effectively disappear. Especially if you are on a different continent from the person trying to contact you.
On January 01 2014 12:44 QueenE wrote: Isn't there anyone close to HyuN that can help him follow this through legally? This needs to be taken care of professionally....
I don't think anything can be done. Every team scam I heard of went without any legal consequences, because it's way too expensive and too time consuming to sue someone over this.
On January 01 2014 12:47 Zenbrez wrote: Now that's how you scam a team, not that 200$ BS thing some guy tried to pull on a team with no income a few months ago. Really sad for Hyun.
Wouldn't exactly call it a scam. Sure, what's happening now (and what happened to MaSsan) is complete bullshit, but Simon did put a lot of money into Quantic from the beginning.
He's basically just cutting and running now, and taking all the liquid assets from the business with him.
I totally agree with you guys. I just think that Boudreault boned him totally.
And Im not so sure about the prize money being ''legally his''. If DH setup the contract in a way that the team can claim the money, they must have protected themselves legally from that precise situation.
I just hope Hyun doesnt retire because of this. Im so sad a guy like Boudreault could own / manage the team like that. It hurts.
He should call Mouz and see what they are offering!
Saw this coming once that other guy posted about all the bs he went through in Quantic. I hope Hyun gets his money, but I find it hard to believe anything would change at this point.
On January 01 2014 12:44 QueenE wrote: Isn't there anyone close to HyuN that can help him follow this through legally? This needs to be taken care of professionally....
In order to pursue and litigate the case, HyuN would need to spend more money than he is currently owed up front. (Unless there is sudden massive support from community, a la Reddit sending MKP to MLG but with more money, it seems unlikely since his chief complaint is he didn't get paid.) He would also need to consult with a lawyer in Quebec (although I guess he could pursue in a Korean court, but that's a question for a lawyer). And given how poorly eSports teams seem to work from the legal documentation side of things (not all, but enough to leave a suspicious aroma) it may be difficult to prove in court. (Skype logs are not legal documents.)
Also... HyuN, you need to move to another team anyways. You are worth more than Quantic was (theoretically) going to pay you.
Hey guys, I know this sucks for Hyun, but don't go pitchforking the sponsors.They got screwed over too. They were probably looking for positive and sustained exposure. Instead, they've been associated with a scam artist or very bad businessman who either walked away with a lot of cash or gambled money on ventures that didn't work and couldn't pay obligations. Either way, the sponsors didn't get what they wanted out of this deal.
If you're going to contact the sponsors, simply tell them that this guy has been scamming his players and that they should sponsor a different gaming team or individual players. If you go around telling them "I'll never buy your product again", then they'll just get out of this scene completely and we'll have nothing. As far as I can tell, the sponsors haven't done anything wrong and we should want those sponsors to stay in the scene, just with a better managed team so that our scene can stabilize.
Scam or not, this really displays the need for a players union. But since the scene is relatively disjointed then yeah, stuff like this is bound to happen. Hyun doesn't deserve this, such a hardworking guy and results backed it up.
progamers have enough on their mind, they shouldn't have to worry about whether or not they'll get paid. I wouldn't blame Hyun for quitting, and it's sad that this will probably go unpunished. it's one thing not to get paid your salary, but it's gotta be pretty damned depressing not getting the prize money you fought for.
hopefully teams will see the situation and at least put a higher consideration in picking Hyun up if he continues to play.
On January 01 2014 13:04 Noobity wrote: Just goes to show you that koreans can't trust a foreign team that doesn't already have proven track records with korean players.
What do you mean korean players can't? You think this doesn't happen to foreigners all the time? For example Massan made a post about his issues with Quantic a few months ago. We have sen many of these bad situations in the past on teamliquid.
I'd like to start by wishing everyone a happy new year. It's a shame that the news came out like this but Simon's (Quantic Sambuca) action forced our hand. Firstly, I'd like to thank all the players and members of staff in Quantic. This shines all of them in a bad light (myself included) but in reality they are all innocent.
The vast majority of staff in Quantic did their jobs for free, or rather "for eSports". It's an odd concept, but the satisfaction of success is a great reward. Try sitting on a train whilst watching one of your players win Dreamhack Valencia on your phone and not react/feel proud. It is unfair to blame any of these people, from Fuji the COO to me as wrongfully taking HyuN's money was all Simon's doing.
It obviously hurts the Quantic brand, and we are working to decide what we can do. I urge you not to blame the sponsors as they were doing their best to get in contact with Simon too and had the players interests at heart as much as their own investments. Simon's intentions were never clear, but he would come up with some great ideas - most of which failed to materialise, despite careful planning. The largest problem was the "immature" way he ran the team. Everything had to be done by himself. Even after brining the extremely talented John Clark to help market the team, he wouldn't give John the control/information he needed to do his job.
The vast majority of staff and players got on really well, with Skype chats full of fun. I believe it is unfair to pin hate on the organisation as all of the staff were extremely dedicated and put up with Simon despite his "flaws".
Myself and Curse talked with HyuN to work out how much money was owed and did our best to get Simon to pay but it is far too easy to disapear from the internet these days. I hope Simon will eventually come to his senses and pay HyuN and any others he may owe money to (if they want to make their matters public, it is down to them. I will not reveal any names!)
I'd like to thank Curse, John Clark, JM Dualan, Patrick Smiley, Fujikura and all the other excellent people I've worked with in the reformed Quantic.
About me - I'm a Computer Science student that has been volunteering for Quantic for about 3 years. I've done everything from writing to managing media, streams, graphic designers, marketing, and sponsor announcements. Essentially, I'm the guy in every Quantic group chat.
How can he wait for so much money for such a long time. I dont understand. He should have talked to a lawyer way sooner. Its bad enough, if its about a month or two of salaries but that much prize money... He should take the legal route imo.
On January 01 2014 13:08 Cri du Chat wrote: How can he wait for so much money for such a long time. I dont understand. He should have talked to a lawyer way sooner. Its bad enough, if its about a month or two of salaries but that much prize money... He should take the legal route imo.
Payouts are a long long time in SC2. It's common in esports to receive prize money 6 months after winning a tournament.
The legal route is also tricky. Esport contracts are usually vague and not very professional, and as such, maybe he's not even enforceable etc. Not to mention the cost of the court, he would likely be spending 10k-15k for that, which would not be compensated. Also, it may be hard to track down Simon as well.
On January 01 2014 13:08 Cri du Chat wrote: How can he wait for so much money for such a long time. I dont understand. He should have talked to a lawyer way sooner. Its bad enough, if its about a month or two of salaries but that much prize money... He should take the legal route imo.
Payouts are a long long time in SC2. It's common in esports to receive prize money 6 months after winning a tournament.
The legal route is also tricky. Esport contracts are usually vague and not very professional, and as such, maybe he's not even owed anything etc. Not to mention the cost of the court, he would likely be spending 10k-15k for that, which would not be compensated. Also, it may be hard to track down Simon as well.
On January 01 2014 13:08 Cri du Chat wrote: How can he wait for so much money for such a long time. I dont understand. He should have talked to a lawyer way sooner. Its bad enough, if its about a month or two of salaries but that much prize money... He should take the legal route imo.
Payouts are a long long time in SC2. It's common in esports to receive prize money 6 months after winning a tournament.
The legal route is also tricky. Esport contracts are usually vague and not very professional, and as such, maybe he's not even owed anything etc. Not to mention the cost of the court, he would likely be spending 10k-15k for that, which would not be compensated. Also, it may be hard to track down Simon as well.
On January 01 2014 12:54 RenSC2 wrote: Hey guys, I know this sucks for Hyun, but don't go pitchforking the sponsors.They got screwed over too. They were probably looking for positive and sustained exposure. Instead, they've been associated with a scam artist or very bad businessman who either walked away with a lot of cash or gambled money on ventures that didn't work and couldn't pay obligations. Either way, the sponsors didn't get what they wanted out of this deal.
If you're going to contact the sponsors, simply tell them that this guy has been scamming his players and that they should sponsor a different gaming team or individual players. If you go around telling them "I'll never buy your product again", then they'll just get out of this scene completely and we'll have nothing. As far as I can tell, the sponsors haven't done anything wrong and we should want those sponsors to stay in the scene, just with a better managed team so that our scene can stabilize.
It's not about threatening the sponsors, it's about asking them to do something about it. The publicity is bad right now. They can correct it by being proactive in helping right a wrong that is associated with their brand.
i like how all the semi relevent esports 'peronsalities' are now coming out of the woodwork to explain to us about how they always knew quantic was bad news bears but none of them actually said anything before or during the time hyun was being screwed out of $23k. all these people being all hush hush until now because either they want to come across like they are more 'in' than they really are or actually dont care about (other) players getting fucked.
1 man doesnt make an organization, everyone else who has in any way touched quantic is just as in the wrong as the scumbag owner. bunch of enablers.
On January 01 2014 13:08 Cri du Chat wrote: How can he wait for so much money for such a long time. I dont understand. He should have talked to a lawyer way sooner. Its bad enough, if its about a month or two of salaries but that much prize money... He should take the legal route imo.
Payouts are a long long time in SC2. It's common in esports to receive prize money 6 months after winning a tournament.
The legal route is also tricky. Esport contracts are usually vague and not very professional, and as such, maybe he's not even owed anything etc. Not to mention the cost of the court, he would likely be spending 10k-15k for that, which would not be compensated. Also, it may be hard to track down Simon as well.
Bah, what a dirty business.
Young "employees" as well as inexperienced managers. Esports is a very small industry and so it's very difficult to bring in some experienced people with professional experience.
On January 01 2014 13:20 turdburgler wrote: i like how all the semi relevent esports 'peronsalities' are now coming out of the woodwork to explain to us about how they always knew quantic was bad news bears but none of them actually said anything before or during the time hyun was being screwed out of $23k. all these people being all hush hush until now because either they want to come across like they are more 'in' than they really are or actually dont care about (other) players getting fucked.
1 man doesnt make an organization, everyone else who has in any way touched quantic is just as in the wrong as the scumbag owner. bunch of enablers.
Players are helpless. If you speak out you may get released. And especially for players that are not S-level, that's very scary, because there are lots of players, and it's hard to get picked up due to a lack of teams.
Hate to say this but Hyun probably won't get his money back. Like someone above said, I don't remember a player getting screwed by management and getting their money back or even suing. Also, this involves a Korean player, a Canadian owner (in Quebec I think), and a Swedish tournament adding even more barriers.
I wonder where the prize pool went (Simon's bank account? paying down team expenses? to other teams?). Surely Dreamhack would know if the money has left their bank account. Unlike what others here seem to think, I think it is reasonable for the money to go to the team first since some teams take a chunk out of the winnings, handle the finances, and pays salaries to the players. But given this situation maybe Dreakhack can consider paying players rather than the claimer which I'm guessing is Simon in this case.
I don't think complaining to the sponsors will help in this scenario. Presumably the sponsors have already paid the teams already. Alienware isn't going to take extra money out of their accounting books beacuse they feel bad for Hyun. The sponsors owe the team not the players no matter how much they may like the players. The worse thing about this is now Sponsors can point to this and say "well this scene/industry isn't very professional."
On January 01 2014 12:54 RenSC2 wrote: Hey guys, I know this sucks for Hyun, but don't go pitchforking the sponsors.They got screwed over too. They were probably looking for positive and sustained exposure. Instead, they've been associated with a scam artist or very bad businessman who either walked away with a lot of cash or gambled money on ventures that didn't work and couldn't pay obligations. Either way, the sponsors didn't get what they wanted out of this deal.
If you're going to contact the sponsors, simply tell them that this guy has been scamming his players and that they should sponsor a different gaming team or individual players. If you go around telling them "I'll never buy your product again", then they'll just get out of this scene completely and we'll have nothing. As far as I can tell, the sponsors haven't done anything wrong and we should want those sponsors to stay in the scene, just with a better managed team so that our scene can stabilize.
It's not about threatening the sponsors, it's about asking them to do something about it. The publicity is bad right now. They can correct it by being proactive in helping right a wrong that is associated with their brand.
Sponsors aren't team managers. They just have to stop sponsoring the wrong thing, they don't fix things, they switch.
Hope Hyun is able to get something, anything, from Quantic. Hate to see anything like this happen to players. This type of shadiness shouldn't be occurring in a 'pro' team.
They essentially pinned all their hopes on the LoL team making it into the LCS, but couldn't even organise a house with a proper internet connection for them so they played from a netcafe and lost. Not shocked to see this come from Quantic, it's all i've seen from them
If I remember correctly, quantic collapsed the first time when sponsors pulled out last minute, and the CEO didnt come back to eSports, but that CEO wasnt shady, correct?
Im just trying to get it clear weather or not quantic was a legitimate team the first time 'round.
Also I feel for you Hyun, post on TL let us know what we can do ok :|
definitely seek legal counsel. you have signed papers which should contain verbiage stating tournament earnings are your entitlement. i don't forsee this Simon character upholding any of his stories in a court of law (even if it is canadian law)
best of luck, and i hope an organization with power can step up to the plate and suggest/create some value-add reform in this disgusting industry.
"but it is far too easy to disapear from the internet these days"
It may be easy to disappear from the Internet but it it not at all easy for a man with substantial assets to disappear from the sight of a modern legal system employed by a determined plaintiff with a competent lawyer. The guy can blow off emails. He can't so easily ignore a lawsuit against him filed in Quebec Superior Court.
It might not be a bad idea though to try and see if the sponsors would be willing to help out in this regard. They could turn this into quite a positive for themselves out of this negative situation if they helped out to cover his losses. That would go so much farther, to me anyway and I believe many others, in forming good will toward their company/products than just a random team sponsorship. And considering the exposure this will get, it wouldn't go unnoticed. That may be a better way to pressure the sponsors to react.
but idk, just an idea.
Hope the best for HyuN anyway. Sad to see this stuff.
On January 01 2014 13:39 Maasked wrote: If I remember correctly, quantic collapsed the first time when sponsors pulled out last minute, and the CEO didnt come back to eSports, but that CEO wasnt shady, correct?
Im just trying to get it clear weather or not quantic was a legitimate team the first time 'round.
Also I feel for you Hyun, post on TL let us know what we can do ok :|
You mean Mark Ferraz? Nah that guy was totally legit, just out of his element. The consensus seemed to be that Quantic 1.0 failed because they got too big, too fast.
As for Hyun's situation, I just hope he can somehow find the desire to stay in the scene. As one of the Koreans who actually embraced the foreign scene, it'd be a huge loss if we went into the new year w/o his charismatic personality =\...
i worked closely with an "eSports Team" whose owner promised a bunch of guys on the team a giant pay day.
every one waited and waited. Then, tragedy of tragedies the owner got bone cancer and was dying. (from what i've read this Simon guy is playing the "lump in his lung" card.)
That was 5 years ago, he is now the longest surviving bone cancer patient in medical history.
On January 01 2014 13:39 Maasked wrote: If I remember correctly, quantic collapsed the first time when sponsors pulled out last minute, and the CEO didnt come back to eSports, but that CEO wasnt shady, correct?
Im just trying to get it clear weather or not quantic was a legitimate team the first time 'round.
Also I feel for you Hyun, post on TL let us know what we can do ok :|
You mean Mark Ferraz? Nah that guy was totally legit, just out of his element. The consensus seemed to be that Quantic 1.0 failed because they got too big, too fast.
As for Hyun's situation, I just hope he can somehow find the desire to stay in the scene. As one of the Koreans who actually embraced the foreign scene, it'd be a huge loss if we went into the new year w/o his charismatic personality =\...
Yes I do, thanks for the clarification. Ferraz was a pretty cool guy.
I haven't been following the whole progaming scene lately but yesterday I listened to part of Chanman's show and apparently this journalist guy wrote an article "The land of broken promises" or something. He apparently got a lot of flak for bringing up the fact that a lot of shady business is going on in esports. The international nature of the business and the lack of formal infrastructure means that it's very easy for scumbags like Simon Boudreault to steal people's money.
It wasn't the first Quantic/Simon scandal. And it was always reasonably obvious that Simon ran a bit of a micro pyramid scheme there, although it could've been incompetence but I'm not sure anybody would believe that.
I sincerely hope that Hyun gets his money and I also hope that Simon either steps up or gets prosecuted. And like I said in the first scandal involving Simon, don't trust a guy who runs a professional team using his dad's credit card.
On January 01 2014 13:43 Strangways wrote: The guy can blow off emails. He can't so easily ignore a lawsuit against him filed in Quebec Superior Court.
I'm from Quebec and even I don't know which court Hyun should take this to. Federal court? Court of Quebec?
The Quebec Superior Court might only look into this if it were $70k+. And the international aspect of this, plus the fact that Hyun doesn't speak much English, means that this is a huge fucking mess. One of the points of having a team is that a team has some collective resources to try to deal with any injustice. When your own team fucks you though, what can you really do...
On January 01 2014 13:50 Doodsmack wrote: If I was a player and this happened to me I would be talking to a lawyer pretty quick. Somehow I doubt HyuN has even tried this option.
Lawyers are expensive and scared of dealing with international affairs.
Exactly, Djzapz. Simon is a complete scumbag. The esports community is too soft on scammers. He's already pulled this crap before. It should be one strike and you're out.
On January 01 2014 14:03 Djzapz wrote: I haven't been following the whole progaming scene lately but yesterday I listened to part of Chanman's show and apparently this journalist guy wrote an article "The land of broken promises" or something. He apparently got a lot of flak for bringing up the fact that a lot of shady business is going on in esports. The international nature of the business and the lack of formal infrastructure means that it's very easy for scumbags like Simon Boudreault to steal people's money.
It wasn't the first Quantic/Simon scandal. And it was always reasonably obvious that Simon ran a bit of a micro pyramid scheme there, although it could've been incompetence but I'm not sure anybody would believe that.
I sincerely hope that Hyun gets his money and I also hope that Simon either steps up or gets prosecuted. And like I said in the first scandal involving Simon, don't trust a guy who runs a professional team using his dad's credit card.
On January 01 2014 13:43 Strangways wrote: The guy can blow off emails. He can't so easily ignore a lawsuit against him filed in Quebec Superior Court.
I'm from Quebec and even I don't know which court Hyun should take this to. Federal court? Court of Quebec?
The Quebec Superior Court might only look into this if it were $70k+. And the international aspect of this, plus the fact that Hyun doesn't speak much English, means that this is a huge fucking mess. One of the points of having a team is that a team has some collective resources to try to deal with any injustice. When your own team fucks you though, what can you really do...
On January 01 2014 13:50 Doodsmack wrote: If I was a player and this happened to me I would be talking to a lawyer pretty quick. Somehow I doubt HyuN has even tried this option.
Lawyers are expensive and scared of dealing with international affairs.
plus the lawyer would have to hire a private investigator to find the guy probably. then there's the whole issue of if the guy even has the money to pay it because if he doesn't than you've sunk a ton of money that you're probably not going to get back. and that doesn't even take into effect this is international which creates a million more problems.
Just disgusting that such a thing is even possible. All I can think is that players need to be more aggressive about firm legal contracts with clear avenues of recourse in cases like this. When people's livelihoods are at risk such utter duplicity should not be tolerated in the least.
Players, especially Koreans in the foreign scene need to be more careful with their money, there seems to be quite a few of these shady characters around in eSports. Hyun wasn't the first and won't be the last one.
On January 01 2014 11:58 zul wrote: What does the quantic manager think? Hide for some time and everyone will forget? This will have a legal afterplay, even if it takes months or years to find him.
On January 01 2014 14:46 mikumegurine wrote: So the team has no money?
Wasnt Hyuns contract with the team?
Shouldnt the team be the one trying to find out what happened to its money?
Quantic is gone.
so Quantic filed for bankruptcy and so Hyun cant touch them or something?
Odds are even if they didn't file for bankruptcy and just closed shop, there's nothing left there to take. Any leftover assets would be distributed (or are simply still in Simon's hands). The team was most likely run like a crackhouse so odds are there are no financial documents of any kinds to track the funds properly. I would argue that legally (although I'm no expert), the only way to get money back would be to go for individuals directly, because it's people like Simon who have the money now. But odds are, even that wouldn't amount to anything.
Why the hell did the tournament winnings go straight to the team and not Hyun himself?
If that's in the contract, there's a lesson there. All these pros, who may be nothing but kids, need to be warned before signing anything in their name.
On January 01 2014 11:58 zul wrote: What does the quantic manager think? Hide for some time and everyone will forget? This will have a legal afterplay, even if it takes months or years to find him.
cross country legal matters.. are not easily pursued..
Figures that that spoiled fuck who inherited daddy's money would cause some shit like this to happen. I cannot adequately express my disgust for that guy, especially after that incident with Massan too.
Hopefully Hyun will get picked up by a legit team that actually treats him right. Would be a shame if he quit because of this bullshit.
On January 01 2014 11:52 Grettin wrote: I wish all the tournament organizers would pay the players directly instead of the team. What the hell Dreamhack?
But you must see there is always a risk of making no profit for the team so if they take 10% fee or so it is way easier to pay the money to the team.
He is lucky he didn't have any people from the hood on his team because this would be some real beef right here. Like, we are looking for you at your moms house type beef.
How does the same team fall through TWICE under two different people managing them? I hope HyuN, or no one else that was on that team, doesn't quit over some bullshit like this. Fucking ridiculous.
On January 01 2014 13:08 JoeEastham wrote: Myself and Curse talked with HyuN to work out how much money was owed and did our best to get Simon to pay but it is far too easy to disapear from the internet these days. I hope Simon will eventually come to his senses and pay HyuN and any others he may owe money to (if they want to make their matters public, it is down to them. I will not reveal any names!)
So your only connection to the guy with the money was the internet. No records of permanent address, no phone, nothing that would be available in a standard resume or individual information within a company.
Poor showing, poor showing indeed. How disappointing.
On January 01 2014 13:08 JoeEastham wrote: Myself and Curse talked with HyuN to work out how much money was owed and did our best to get Simon to pay but it is far too easy to disapear from the internet these days. I hope Simon will eventually come to his senses and pay HyuN and any others he may owe money to (if they want to make their matters public, it is down to them. I will not reveal any names!)
So your only connection to the guy with the money was the internet. No records of permanent address, no phone, nothing that would be available in a standard resume or individual information within a company.
Poor showing, poor showing indeed. How disappointing.
His face and name are all over the webs. Worst case scenario, he's not that hard to find if someone really wants to. The guy's a thief, not a fugitive.
On January 01 2014 12:31 Uldred wrote: Really horrible on Quantic and Simon's part. I can't support any of their sponsors after this if it doesn't get resolved.
Burn Controllers, ROCCAT and Alienware won't ever receive my business after this.
I realize they aren't at fault, but they have some responsibility in this seeing as how their name and brand is attached to Quantic.
And this is why esports will never be taken seriously. You're scum.
On January 01 2014 12:31 Uldred wrote: Really horrible on Quantic and Simon's part. I can't support any of their sponsors after this if it doesn't get resolved.
Burn Controllers, ROCCAT and Alienware won't ever receive my business after this.
I realize they aren't at fault, but they have some responsibility in this seeing as how their name and brand is attached to Quantic.
what? are you serious? do you know how sponsorships work? this isn't the fault of Burn, ROCCAT, and Alienware at all.
I wonder if someone opened up a donating account to go towards the lawyer to own Simon for Hyun and then advertised it on TL.net. Would people donate into it? Would it even be that much?
On January 01 2014 15:59 Gruntt wrote: In the end, the players could talk.
I wonder if someone opened up a donating account to go towards the lawyer to own Simon for Hyun and then advertised it on TL.net. Would people donate into it? Would it even be that much?
Someone would probably find a way to steal that money too in this rotten fucking madness that we call esports.
On January 01 2014 15:59 Gruntt wrote: In the end, the players could talk.
I wonder if someone opened up a donating account to go towards the lawyer to own Simon for Hyun and then advertised it on TL.net. Would people donate into it? Would it even be that much?
Someone would probably find a way to steal that money too in this rotten fucking madness that we call esports.
On January 01 2014 13:08 JoeEastham wrote: Myself and Curse talked with HyuN to work out how much money was owed and did our best to get Simon to pay but it is far too easy to disapear from the internet these days. I hope Simon will eventually come to his senses and pay HyuN and any others he may owe money to (if they want to make their matters public, it is down to them. I will not reveal any names!)
So your only connection to the guy with the money was the internet. No records of permanent address, no phone, nothing that would be available in a standard resume or individual information within a company.
Poor showing, poor showing indeed. How disappointing.
I think he was an unpaid volunteer? If so he wasnt in the best position to be asking questions while working with Quantic.
On January 01 2014 16:07 buchaa wrote: Hyun can't you file a suit?
Filing an international lawsuit is expensive, complicated, would most likely require an interpret unless Hyun's English is better than I think it is. It also probably requires at least some travel, and some people would need to be hired to find where Simon even is, and if he's actually responsible.
The evidence from emails is probably sufficient to win the suit but taking this to a Canadian court would be ridiculously expensive and in the end Hyun wouldn't win much, and he'd possibly even lose a lot because justice is not always rendered.
On January 01 2014 11:53 Gojira621 wrote: Hyun needs to hire a lawyer immediately. This is straight up theft. This guy can't disappear forever
He can disappear for a long time, he doesn't even really have to hide. Also, lawyers are expensive and trials can take years to finish. And even if HyuN can sue him successfully, there is a chance that Simon doesn't have the money anymore and can't give anything back.
if the lawyers are good enough, they might be able to get at simon's parents to pay for simon
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Its really shitty that this is still and has always been a problem in eSports. Even reputable organizations have had problems in the past so its not really a surprise, but it just goes to show that when your a big name commodity such as a HyuN there's no reason to sign for an up-and-coming team like Quantic, which also had a troubled past. Poor HyuN.. really hope he doesn't quit over this, but with SC2 on the decline there aren't many teams that will meet his salary needs..
When i search his name i want this to be seen at the very top of the google result list; so it can warn any one in the future if they are considering working with this criminal.
Everyone needs to get on the quantic forums and call out Simon. Email the sponsors, tweet at Simon, do ANYTHING. Shit like this is killing esports, and pieces of shit like Simon need to be held responsible.
People like Simon, Loveen and Blackfoger make me sick. They try to play a real-life game of Monopoly, without realizing they're seriously undermining the livelihood of real human beings.
This is really too bad. It almost seems criminal, if in fact it is not. Totally defeats the purpose of dedicating full time to programing. By the time Hyun gets the money, it will probably be too late
Never had a good feeling about the team after ItsGosu went Quantic, which is partly why I left and quit. I was considering leaving even if I planned to stay in it. Nothing in particular I just did not feel they were an upstanding organization.
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
SamBuca is a fucking faggot who inherited his daddy's fortune and due to the fact that the loser has no social skills or accomplishments on his own he tried to buy a pro gaming team and thought that by just throwing money at things he would succeed. Everytime this fucking loser would stop by the korean LoL players streams (who totally gave the vibe of being forced to stream). He would spend time in chat talking purely about money and how he was going to buy things for the players. Real talk this guy never actually talked about the players as actual people but rather just tools to make himself feel like he's actually remotely important.
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
That'd be like saying FXO Korea was a foreign team.
Axiom's a Korean Team, just owned and sponsored by a foreign company.
Even though Simon had resolved the issue, he still pull the same shit against Quantic's star player Hyun! That guy not only needs to pay up but also needs to banished from eSports for good!
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
That'd be like saying FXO Korea was a foreign team.
Axiom's a Korean Team, just owned and sponsored by a foreign company.
Before Axiom got their Korean manager for the players I would say the distinction would have been that FXO had a full Korean staff team that stayed at the team house with the players. Axiom went a long time with just Crank doing that stuff.
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
That'd be like saying FXO Korea was a foreign team.
Axiom's a Korean Team, just owned and sponsored by a foreign company.
Before Axiom got their Korean manager for the players I would say the distinction would have been that FXO had a full Korean staff team that stayed at the team house with the players. Axiom went a long time with just Crank doing that stuff.
Also FXO was not owned nor ran by FXO, Sponsored and paid sure...
On January 01 2014 12:31 Uldred wrote: Really horrible on Quantic and Simon's part. I can't support any of their sponsors after this if it doesn't get resolved.
Burn Controllers, ROCCAT and Alienware won't ever receive my business after this.
I realize they aren't at fault, but they have some responsibility in this seeing as how their name and brand is attached to Quantic.
what? are you serious? do you know how sponsorships work? this isn't the fault of Burn, ROCCAT, and Alienware at all.
On January 01 2014 12:31 Uldred wrote: Really horrible on Quantic and Simon's part. I can't support any of their sponsors after this if it doesn't get resolved.
Burn Controllers, ROCCAT and Alienware won't ever receive my business after this.
I realize they aren't at fault, but they have some responsibility in this seeing as how their name and brand is attached to Quantic.
And this is why esports will never be taken seriously. You're scum.
Yes. I'm the scum here, not Simon Boudreault.
Did the sponsors just throw their money and product and branding at a team and expect to not be associated with them, even after the incident with MaSsan?
Dell/Alienware are a huge corporation, are you saying they can't afford to help HyuN who was cheated out of $23000? Why not help him find a lawyer, or even provide one for him from their legal department when HE is the one getting shafted and they're getting free exposure?
If e-sports is such a joke to those companies that they think they can slap their name on any team to get sales and then pull out when shit hits the fan, then I won't buy any of their products. If they choose to wash their hands of this then I'm washing my hands of them.
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
That'd be like saying FXO Korea was a foreign team.
Axiom's a Korean Team, just owned and sponsored by a foreign company.
Depends on what you identify as a foreign team. Is name and management more valid or is ownership and sponsorship?
On January 01 2014 12:31 Uldred wrote: Really horrible on Quantic and Simon's part. I can't support any of their sponsors after this if it doesn't get resolved.
Burn Controllers, ROCCAT and Alienware won't ever receive my business after this.
I realize they aren't at fault, but they have some responsibility in this seeing as how their name and brand is attached to Quantic.
what? are you serious? do you know how sponsorships work? this isn't the fault of Burn, ROCCAT, and Alienware at all.
On January 01 2014 12:31 Uldred wrote: Really horrible on Quantic and Simon's part. I can't support any of their sponsors after this if it doesn't get resolved.
Burn Controllers, ROCCAT and Alienware won't ever receive my business after this.
I realize they aren't at fault, but they have some responsibility in this seeing as how their name and brand is attached to Quantic.
And this is why esports will never be taken seriously. You're scum.
Yes. I'm the scum here, not Simon Boudreault.
Did the sponsors just throw their money and product and branding at a team and expect to not be associated with them, even after the incident with MaSsan?
Dell/Alienware are a huge corporation, are you saying they can't afford to help HyuN who was cheated out of $23000? Why not help him find a lawyer, or even provide one for him from their legal department when HE is the one getting shafted and they're getting free exposure?
If e-sports is such a joke to those companies that they think they can slap their name on any team to get sales and then pull out when shit hits the fan, then I won't buy any of their products. If they choose to wash their hands of this then I'm washing my hands of them.
I would not call you scum, but you are clearly an idiot.
On January 01 2014 12:31 Uldred wrote: Really horrible on Quantic and Simon's part. I can't support any of their sponsors after this if it doesn't get resolved.
Burn Controllers, ROCCAT and Alienware won't ever receive my business after this.
I realize they aren't at fault, but they have some responsibility in this seeing as how their name and brand is attached to Quantic.
what? are you serious? do you know how sponsorships work? this isn't the fault of Burn, ROCCAT, and Alienware at all.
On January 01 2014 15:53 9-BiT wrote:
On January 01 2014 12:31 Uldred wrote: Really horrible on Quantic and Simon's part. I can't support any of their sponsors after this if it doesn't get resolved.
Burn Controllers, ROCCAT and Alienware won't ever receive my business after this.
I realize they aren't at fault, but they have some responsibility in this seeing as how their name and brand is attached to Quantic.
And this is why esports will never be taken seriously. You're scum.
Yes. I'm the scum here, not Simon Boudreault.
Did the sponsors just throw their money and product and branding at a team and expect to not be associated with them, even after the incident with MaSsan?
Dell/Alienware are a huge corporation, are you saying they can't afford to help HyuN who was cheated out of $23000? Why not help him find a lawyer, or even provide one for him from their legal department when HE is the one getting shafted and they're getting free exposure?
If e-sports is such a joke to those companies that they think they can slap their name on any team to get sales and then pull out when shit hits the fan, then I won't buy any of their products. If they choose to wash their hands of this then I'm washing my hands of them.
I would not call you scum, but you are clearly an idiot.
On January 01 2014 18:14 zezamer wrote: I have no idea why tournament organizers still give the money to the team
There is nothing wrong with giving the money to the team. The managers need to handle all this stuff like paying bills, contracts and so much more stuff we wouldnt even think off. I just cant understand why there is no higher management which controls this stuff.
In my opinion there are several ways to solve this problem.
Hyun got a contract. So why isnt he contacting a lawyer like you guys already mentioned? Another way would be to contact one of Quantic sponsors because at the end of the day the image of Quantic is damaged - and Quantic is associated with this big names like Razer and stuff. Sponsors wouldnt care about this normally (Which I understand) but hate against a company which youre sponsoring would may make them to do sth.
Also there is the already active """solution""" of contacting the community and try to get as many donations as possible. But honestly I dont feel like there will be so many donations as that hyun could say "well, atleast I got a part of it". I just got the impression that the sc2 community isnt that huge for that - but this is just my personal feeling.
Hyun is like one of the nicest Person in Esports, I'M really feeling sad for him! Hope he gets his Price money. I mean, he won a Tournament, and the Team uses the money to support a LOL-Team? holy shit...
On January 01 2014 18:49 opterown wrote: @boycotting the sponsors discussion
at the end of the day, we (esports industry) need them more than they need us, and they do good for the scene, so please don't be dramatic about that.
Sponsors wont look at it as a boycott. They will look at it as a scam. They gave money to the team, and now they are supposed to bear the teams debts? In Japan yakuza ran such extortion scheme.
There is simply too many shady figures in esports in america for it to ever gain respectability. Forget about korea, kespa etc. I doubt american esport can even come close to european esports.
On January 01 2014 18:52 AyaaLa wrote: we should killl the owner. basically do something that sets a deep and dark mark over his life and something people will see
No, we shouldn't kill anyone. I'm sure he would love to pay Hyun all the money he owes him, he just got into debts way over his head, expecting eSports to be somehow profitable. We should, however, make him sign some kind of a legal agreement that states that he will repay Hyun the money he owes him over a certain, acceptable period of time.
On January 01 2014 18:55 Pyloss wrote: Hyun is like one of the nicest Person in Esports, I'M really feeling sad for him! Hope he gets his Price money. I mean, he won a Tournament, and the Team uses the money to support a LOL-Team? holy shit...
I wish someone somewhere a millionaire, who would care enough about this and decide to do something to get a hold of Simon and see how he will respond.
On January 01 2014 18:55 Pyloss wrote: Hyun is like one of the nicest Person in Esports, I'M really feeling sad for him! Hope he gets his Price money. I mean, he won a Tournament, and the Team uses the money to support a LOL-Team? holy shit...
And its perfectly legal lol.
It's not legal if he had a contract, the problem is a Korean national finding a Canadian lawyer who is willing to represent him in a very small lawsuit (sorry, less than $30k is a very small lawsuit) in a field like eSports that most people over 30 probably won't even believe is a legitimate business. Then assuming he does, it takes a long time to get a default judgment (which is probably what he'd get) and then collect on it. It also matters who the contract was with--I am guessing Quantic's assets are owned by some kind of shell entity...
I don't want to get into legalese but recovering money for this type of thing through a legal process is hard, especially when the owner apparently no longer has any interest in preserving the team or brand. For a typical run-of-the-mill contract, like if HyuN was hired to build a house or something, you could find a cheap lawyer that does that kind of stuff a lot, but for a contract to play video games? Probably would be tough.
And yes, this is a huge shame and very sad. As a big TSL fan what I am hoping happens is that based on his strong performance in 2013 HyuN finds a new foreign sponsor (maybe CMStorm picks him up and pairs him with Polt? Would be awesome...) and then that new sponsor would have resources to help him recover some of what he's owed by Quantic.
On January 01 2014 19:11 BrieFanFiction wrote: I will donate $10 to a crowd-funded lawyer for HyuN. I don't know how to set it all up though. Someone with clout please do that.
It would just be great if some team would pick Hyun up and support him from now on. Liquid, Acer, mouz, your move. Show some heart in the cold world of business. I'm saying that with one blinking and one crying eye.
On January 01 2014 19:11 BrieFanFiction wrote: I will donate $10 to a crowd-funded lawyer for HyuN. I don't know how to set it all up though. Someone with clout please do that.
I hate logging on to see this kind of stuff happening in the esports industry. I know people (good people at that) like total biscuit are probably outraged at this kind of treatment of players. Sometimes I wish my wife would let me support a progamer because this is very sickening to the stomach.
Nah, Though I think a legal strongly worded letter, in an envelope clearly marked HAND DELIVERED and physically delivered to his place of employment will get his attention.
nothing gets more attention than when people start physically knocking on doors.
On January 01 2014 13:34 SHOOG wrote: Hope Hyun is able to get something, anything, from Quantic. Hate to see anything like this happen to players. This type of shadiness shouldn't be occurring in a 'pro' team.
I'm fully agreeing with you but I find it ironic you post something like this with an Azubu icon on your sig :D
So disgusting! Paying an employee late, let alone not paying at all, is a crime. Man, this dude and the responsible officers of Quantic should go to jail or otherwise straighten this up now!
On January 01 2014 19:54 artosismermaid wrote: No offense to Hyun, but who would ever trust joining a team of only a 23 year old, where did this 23 year old get all this money from?
That's a weird point you make there: it would be more shocking if he joined the team of a 13-year-old but 23 in the context of eSports isn't unreasonably young. I guess you'll have troubles finding a team run by a 40-year-old suit
On January 01 2014 19:54 artosismermaid wrote: No offense to Hyun, but who would ever trust joining a team of only a 23 year old, where did this 23 year old get all this money from?
Inheritance, he does have money. He did put a lot of money into Quantic.
You can't make an argument of "Don't join a team because manager is 23 years old". Lots of managers in esports are young. Hell, Nazgul is only 30. When the SC2 team started he was 27, and has owned teamliquid prior to being 23... And you don't go around saying that Nazgul is untrustworthy.
On January 01 2014 19:54 artosismermaid wrote: No offense to Hyun, but who would ever trust joining a team of only a 23 year old, where did this 23 year old get all this money from?
Pretty sure the owners of both Liquid and EG are young themselves.
eSports organisations are just like businesses, and shady dealings can be run within any type of business. Hyun should file a lawsuit against Simon because he is the rightful owner of the money that he EARNED.
why would you need money to start a team ? you form a team with your buddies, you/your parents pay for your couple first tourney trips, you win, you get sponsors, you recruit more players with giving em sponsor gear or something, you win more, you get more sponsors ?
Not sure how the legislation works in Canada and the nature of the contract between Hyun and Quantic. Where I come from there is a law that allows any employee to file their company for bankruptcy if salaries are not paid.
This will put the company under a judge's scrutiny and force the company to pay the salaries to dismiss the case - and in the case it can't, have the company foreclose before any more harm is done and assets realized in favor of the employees and other creditors.
On January 01 2014 19:54 artosismermaid wrote: No offense to Hyun, but who would ever trust joining a team of only a 23 year old, where did this 23 year old get all this money from?
Pretty sure the owners of both Liquid and EG are young themselves.
If Quantic announces bankruptcy, as far as I know the owner won't even need to pay back at all because a company is a seperate legal "person". All the owner would lose is his initial investment. Then again things could be different than in Finland so what do I know?
Ah and in cases like that(where the company actually is in money trouble) generally the bank or something equivalent gets practically everything.
That's fucked up. I hope HyuN won't retire because of that. Those are behavings that we can't tolerate. I wish there was some kind of organisation or a way to put pressure on the guy so that he gives the money he owe. Such a shame.
Well honestly Alternate owes me a lot of money too which they refuse to pay for no reason and to other players too, and I know many other players haven't been paid by their teams. Esport business is still very shady. The problem is that other than bringing the facts to public attention the players have no power to do anything. And these swindling teams don't really give a fuck.
Aside from the unfortunate situation Hyun is in right now I found it interesting to see that a player of hyun's calibre gets a regular income of around 2200 dollars a month. That does not sound too bad to me.
On January 01 2014 20:56 aTnClouD wrote: Well honestly Alternate owes me a lot of money too which they refuse to pay for no reason and to other players too, and I know many other players haven't been paid by their teams. Esport business is still very shady. The problem is that other than bringing the facts to public attention the players have no power to do anything. And these swindling teams don't really give a fuck.
I can understand your and hyuns frustration, but one thing that always astonishes me is that so many gamers don't have good contracts and they DON'T give a fuck about having a good insurance when it comes to work contracts o_0.
Man this is a job like any other and the first thing I did when I started working is because at one point or another you will get ripped off by your company. 4 Weeks ago a friend of mine got his contract cancelled for no reason at all. They found some shady arguments and that was it. So,... rip off is not only an esports thing!! It happens everywhere were one guys has to give money to another, because this is what humans do since there is money around... they try to get an easy deal.
So: why the heck doesn't have every pro gramer a frickin ensurance that covers this shit and more important: Why do so many pro gamers don't have proper contracts on what gets payed and what doesn't?
On January 01 2014 12:11 NmExZeus wrote: Perhaps the TL community could try to raise a fund for Quantic gamers that have been cheated out of their money by the likes of Simon? Would be great if any major TL personalities decided to lead it
A really really nice sentiment, but I am afraid it's only a patch work solution. I feel like players really need a union to protect them.
I hope TL will try to help him, we must apply pressure on Quantic in some way. Please give us Email or some other way so we can all contact them, we can not accept this as a community.
On January 01 2014 20:56 aTnClouD wrote: Well honestly Alternate owes me a lot of money too which they refuse to pay for no reason and to other players too, and I know many other players haven't been paid by their teams. Esport business is still very shady. The problem is that other than bringing the facts to public attention the players have no power to do anything. And these swindling teams don't really give a fuck.
I can understand your and hyuns frustration, but one thing that always astonishes me is that so many gamers don't have good contracts and they DON'T give a fuck about having a good insurance when it comes to work contracts o_0.
Man this is a job like any other and the first thing I did when I started working is because at one point or another you will get ripped off by your company. 4 Weeks ago a friend of mine got his contract cancelled for no reason at all. They found some shady arguments and that was it. So,... rip off is not only an esports thing!! It happens everywhere were one guys has to give money to another, because this is what humans do since there is money around... they try to get an easy deal.
So: why the heck doesn't have every pro gramer a frickin ensurance that covers this shit and more important: Why do so many pro gamers don't have proper contracts on what gets payed and what doesn't?
Because you feel lucky to do what you love for a living and teams know you do and if you disagree they will take someone else who signs their conditions. Again, it's a very shady business.
On January 01 2014 11:58 zul wrote: What does the quantic manager think? Hide for some time and everyone will forget? This will have a legal afterplay, even if it takes months or years to find him.
The Quantic manager is probably in chock like HyuN and I doubt the Quantic manager after the reformation was on a payroll either. In any regard, HyuN's manager should not be held accountable for something he didn't commit - he didn't hold the financial agreements here, the owner did.
Its a shame that we see this happen so many times in the past, and it comes down to naming and shaming for people to see the dark side of esports organisations.
On January 01 2014 21:32 Fuddudle wrote: Its a shame that we see this happen so many times in the past, and it comes down to naming and shaming for people to see the dark side of esports organisations.
Unfortunately, it happens nearly everywhere when money is involved. Really comes down to the person, some choose conduct business in a dishonest and shady manner, and some have a code they follow. Comes down to being able to see what kind of person you are doing business with, and that's very hard at times.
On January 01 2014 20:56 aTnClouD wrote: Well honestly Alternate owes me a lot of money too which they refuse to pay for no reason and to other players too, and I know many other players haven't been paid by their teams. Esport business is still very shady. The problem is that other than bringing the facts to public attention the players have no power to do anything. And these swindling teams don't really give a fuck.
I never heard much about this before. Please enlighten us, man.
don't understand why dreamhack use a team payment system even though they know about the problems that players don't get their contractual money.. unprofessional cycle goes its way. gl
On January 01 2014 21:43 NEEDZMOAR wrote: this makes me so angry. this is why Esports isnt legit yet....
It sure doesn't help the reputation of eSports in general. However, judging from my experience working for a German district court, many and more small businesses are run in a terrible way and even bigger ones often try to cover up mistakes they did instead of just solving the issue at hand.
On January 01 2014 20:56 aTnClouD wrote: Well honestly Alternate owes me a lot of money too which they refuse to pay for no reason and to other players too, and I know many other players haven't been paid by their teams. Esport business is still very shady. The problem is that other than bringing the facts to public attention the players have no power to do anything. And these swindling teams don't really give a fuck.
I don't get it. Players need to sign contracts, in these contracts should be written facts about payment and rules for prizemoney, so why has a player not chance to fight for himself ?! I, as a player would go all the way to get what i earned ! And thats what Hyun should do too.
On January 01 2014 21:55 soerenman wrote: don't understand why dreamhack use a team payment system even though they know about the problems that players don't get their contractual money.. unprofessional cycle goes its way. gl
Because a lot of teams have agreements where they take a cut of prize winnings over a certain amount. The simplist solution is almost always for prize money to be sent to the team, the process it and pay it out. It works fine in 99/100 cases. This is the 1
On January 01 2014 20:56 aTnClouD wrote: Well honestly Alternate owes me a lot of money too which they refuse to pay for no reason and to other players too, and I know many other players haven't been paid by their teams. Esport business is still very shady. The problem is that other than bringing the facts to public attention the players have no power to do anything. And these swindling teams don't really give a fuck.
I don't get it. Players need to sign contracts, in these contracts should be written facts about payment and rules for prizemoney, so why has a player not chance to fight for himself ?! I, as a player would go all the way to get what i earned ! And thats what Hyun should do too.
I don't know Hyun's situation, but as far as I understand he should definitely go for legal measures, considering the amount of money is that big. For my and other Alternate players case they were doing some stuff not legally to begin with and we were completely unaware of it, and that messed up all the terms of the contract for us. Also would it be smart to bring to court this stuff against a big company and spend lots of time and money to get back a few thousand euros? I can imagine it works the same for other players. The money owed is simply not enough to invest the time and cash to hire a lawyer and get it back, and most of them are too young and unexperienced or they don't have the resources to get what they deserve. The teams are perfectly aware of this and for this reason some of them don't care about the players condition or what is owed to them.
edit: point is that all progamers come from a place of scarcity because of gaming background and they are all very young, so teams know they can get away with lots of shit without much repercussion
On January 01 2014 20:56 aTnClouD wrote: Well honestly Alternate owes me a lot of money too which they refuse to pay for no reason and to other players too, and I know many other players haven't been paid by their teams. Esport business is still very shady. The problem is that other than bringing the facts to public attention the players have no power to do anything. And these swindling teams don't really give a fuck.
I don't get it. Players need to sign contracts, in these contracts should be written facts about payment and rules for prizemoney, so why has a player not chance to fight for himself ?! I, as a player would go all the way to get what i earned ! And thats what Hyun should do too.
I don't know Hyun's situation, but as far as I understand he should definitely go for legal measures, considering the amount of money is that big. For my and other Alternate players case they were doing some stuff not legally to begin with and we were completely unaware of it, and that messed up all the terms of the contract for us. Also would it be smart to bring to court this stuff against a big company and spend lots of time and money to get back a few thousand euros? I can imagine it works the same for other players. The money owed is simply not enough to invest the time and cash to hire a lawyer and get it back, and most of them are too young and unexperienced or they don't have the resources to get what they deserve. The teams are perfectly aware of this and for this reason some of them don't care about the players condition or what is owed to them.
If you don't claim the things that you are entitled to, it is obvious, that the opposite side will go on exploiting you and others. and btw, a few thousands Euros is already more than what most cases at local courts are about
It's kind of really messed up that Simon was also marketing Hyun, making money of his name and image with shirts, hoodies etc.. and at the same time refused to pay him money Hyun had earned himself.
There are also domestic laws regarding taxes. The reason most players choose to have the team's receive the prizemoney is because they have to pay Swedish taxes off of them if they are not paid out to a registered company, where this way around they can pay taxes in their own country. DreamHack does offer to pay out to the player directly, but few choose this option.
MLG also offers to pay out to both, but as a standard they pay the players directly. If you are from outside the US, they are forced to keep 30 % of your prizemoney in America (or at least the States that are relevant for MLG) so here nothing can be done unless your team has an American company that they could pay out to and that way it would allow the player to pay taxes in his own country.
Without continuing to write about every organization, there's always been an option everywhere from the events to pay it to the team or the player(s). As Kennigit said that makes sense because some contracts will have a clause about a percentage of the prizemoney won goes to the team.
On January 01 2014 13:08 JoeEastham wrote: Hi everyone,
I'd like to start by wishing everyone a happy new year. It's a shame that the news came out like this but Simon's (Quantic Sambuca) action forced our hand. Firstly, I'd like to thank all the players and members of staff in Quantic. This shines all of them in a bad light (myself included) but in reality they are all innocent.
The vast majority of staff in Quantic did their jobs for free, or rather "for eSports". It's an odd concept, but the satisfaction of success is a great reward. Try sitting on a train whilst watching one of your players win Dreamhack Valencia on your phone and not react/feel proud. It is unfair to blame any of these people, from Fuji the COO to me as wrongfully taking HyuN's money was all Simon's doing.
It obviously hurts the Quantic brand, and we are working to decide what we can do. I urge you not to blame the sponsors as they were doing their best to get in contact with Simon too and had the players interests at heart as much as their own investments. Simon's intentions were never clear, but he would come up with some great ideas - most of which failed to materialise, despite careful planning. The largest problem was the "immature" way he ran the team. Everything had to be done by himself. Even after brining the extremely talented John Clark to help market the team, he wouldn't give John the control/information he needed to do his job.
The vast majority of staff and players got on really well, with Skype chats full of fun. I believe it is unfair to pin hate on the organisation as all of the staff were extremely dedicated and put up with Simon despite his "flaws".
Myself and Curse talked with HyuN to work out how much money was owed and did our best to get Simon to pay but it is far too easy to disapear from the internet these days. I hope Simon will eventually come to his senses and pay HyuN and any others he may owe money to (if they want to make their matters public, it is down to them. I will not reveal any names!)
I'd like to thank Curse, John Clark, JM Dualan, Patrick Smiley, Fujikura and all the other excellent people I've worked with in the reformed Quantic.
About me - I'm a Computer Science student that has been volunteering for Quantic for about 3 years. I've done everything from writing to managing media, streams, graphic designers, marketing, and sponsor announcements. Essentially, I'm the guy in every Quantic group chat.
Thanks for reading,
Joe (@Joe_Eastham/Joe@QuanticGaming.com)
Too late, internet rage inc. And well deserved for Simon. The danger is indeed that all Quantic gets blamed, so PLEASE add this statement to the op.
Quite frankly this whole incident is just sickening. It does make me wonder why anyone would want to be a progammer. This is not an isolated incident either, it happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME in this scene. I'm fucking sick of it, even if this human-waste 'Simon' comes out of the woodworks and actually pays Hyun (which won't happen, but we can dream) I still think Hyun should just move on. To give 8 years of your life to something and have it end like this is not good for anyone's mental state.
Woah woah. WTF. How did it even get that bad. That is so upsetting to read about. I couldn't work for a company like that, it is never okay to delay someone's salary by more than a month. In addition to being unreliable and secretive, Simon sounds like a douche. I sincerely hope this gets resolved. Good luck HyuN, I hope you keep playing.
This is when we need a form of authority within eSports to give it legitimacy. I'm not fond of organizations like kespa, but if you were to make a world wide authority that you had to report to and who had all your information to find you if you did something like this, it would protect teams and players. Real rules need to be in place and enforced.
Good luck Hyun, this is not the last time we heard about Quantic, hopefully it will be the last. With so many players on their own at the start of 2014, I hope they fall on their feet. This is a rough start for the near year.
You guys make this all much to complicated it is pretty easy:
Hyun should look at his contract. The contract is (probably) with some kind of company. So he must just sue the company. (No need to find Simon at all. If he has taken money from the company for his own spending and now is hiding, it should be a case of defalcation and as such the Canadian government will find him for you )
Next is the act of suing. I'm no expert in Canadian law but normally it should be enough to get a title against the company. So they will get a letter from court with your demands (and normally he can get this money at this point, c if not it will be really expensive for quantic in the long run ... you guys all say "the long process and all" so it is not worth the trouble, but quantic has the same problem, how often has quantic be sued till now... probably 0 times.. you are not dealing with a big company with a own legal department here, they too don't have the money for a long law case. )
So he should get a lawyer who can say him what he has to do to get a title against quantic. This should not cost to much around 100$ for Germany. If quantic now defaults he has at leased a paper which guarantees his money (if there is any at all). At this point is is interesting to know which type of company quantic is. In the best case for Hyun Simon is personally liable in which case Hyun should get all his money. (But this is most unlikely if Simon is not a total retard XD )
For a lawyer it should not matter which type of businesses it is. esport or not the Canadian laws are still unchanged. That the money comes from outside Canada doesn't matter at all (If it is already payed. If it is not payed, even better ask DH to send it to Hyun.)
THE BEST THING WOULD BE IF A CANADIAN COULD PHONE A LAWYER AND JUST ASK HIM WHAT TO DO (AND IF HE MAYBE WOULD TAKE SUCH A CASE OR WHO WOULD TAKE SUCH A CASE AND HOW MUCH IT WOULD COST). (asking is still free and more than saying I don't have the time right now will not happen, they don't eat you alive via phone) SO CAN ANYBODY MAKE THIS ONE PHONE CALL PLEASE AND POST HIS FINDINGS HERE. C ALL WHAT YOU GUY SAY IS NOBODY WILL TAKE THE JOB BEFORE YOU EVEN ASKED. -.-'
It's quite common that organizations take the prize money and then distribute it to the players, lots of contracts in pro gaming have a rule/obligation where you pay xx% of the prize to the organization, then the organization distributes it among the player(s, in case of a team).
Isn't super common to just keep it for a long time before paying out though, lol.
Lol at Simon Boudreault. That's what a noob in business looks like. Sorry for Hyun though, his good bet is to find a competent team for a year-long contract that would go after the debt that Quantic owes him in court. Otherwise forget about it and move on :/
The thing is, Hyun is a young adult living in Korea with little English skill, zero knowledge about law & all these stuffs. It's rather unlikely that he has the ability, time, patience & money to sue a Canadian org. My take is that if they want to hurt, you simply cant do shit. This happened very frequently in wc3. Foreign teams are not that great for Koreans
If that kind of thing happens even with big respectable teams like Quantic (who I thought seemed to have lots of money), we can only imagine the shadiness to be feared with smaller esports organizations. Didn't expect this, wow. ;/
On January 01 2014 20:56 aTnClouD wrote: Well honestly Alternate owes me a lot of money too which they refuse to pay for no reason and to other players too, and I know many other players haven't been paid by their teams. Esport business is still very shady. The problem is that other than bringing the facts to public attention the players have no power to do anything. And these swindling teams don't really give a fuck.
I don't get it. Players need to sign contracts, in these contracts should be written facts about payment and rules for prizemoney, so why has a player not chance to fight for himself ?! I, as a player would go all the way to get what i earned ! And thats what Hyun should do too.
I don't know Hyun's situation, but as far as I understand he should definitely go for legal measures, considering the amount of money is that big. For my and other Alternate players case they were doing some stuff not legally to begin with and we were completely unaware of it, and that messed up all the terms of the contract for us. Also would it be smart to bring to court this stuff against a big company and spend lots of time and money to get back a few thousand euros? I can imagine it works the same for other players. The money owed is simply not enough to invest the time and cash to hire a lawyer and get it back, and most of them are too young and unexperienced or they don't have the resources to get what they deserve. The teams are perfectly aware of this and for this reason some of them don't care about the players condition or what is owed to them.
edit: point is that all progamers come from a place of scarcity because of gaming background and they are all very young, so teams know they can get away with lots of shit without much repercussion
Ok, got your point and you're right but as you said, in Hyun's case he should force it, the amount of money is so high and i guess he could get a lot of help if he decides to do so. Would be a good example maybe for other persons and for the future for everybody, especially for the player - organisation relationship
Wow, this is disgusting. I feel sorry for Hyun since he's been on Quantic for so long and I thought it was a decently funded team. So far, the only teams that have shown me, both their competence in management, and their ability to pay players, are Evil Geniuses, Alliance, and Team Liquid - given their sponsors and the history of the players even after they retire.
I really hope Hyun gets his money back somehow - would seriously hire a lawyer and consult him/her about the problem. Figures a 23 year old who inherited his wealth from his father would screw people over and dump $200,000+ on esports without getting a return.
On January 01 2014 23:38 figq wrote: If that kind of thing happens even with big respectable teams like Quantic (who I thought seemed to have lots of money), we can only imagine the shadiness to be feared with smaller esports organizations. Didn't expect this, wow. ;/
I guess you missed all the stories with regards to Quantic, lol. ;/
Was wondering when the 'Quantic is a big scam' thing would come along. Took way longer than I had ever expected, considering how their "reformation" went down.
It's in these cases you wish tournament organisations paid out prize money directly to the player and not through the teams.
Lol I love how the consensus of this thread seems to be "poor HyuN, no point in even trying to get his 23k$ back".
Real life story: in my 3rd world country of Poland, my mom was scammed for fucking 600 PLN (<200 USD) on Allegro (Polish equivalent of eBay). She sued the scumbag, got her money back, never had to pay anything (the seller had to). But HyuN should just forget about his 23k, move to another team and be scammed again.
On January 01 2014 23:58 dehydrogenaza wrote: Lol I love how the consensus of this thread seems to be "poor HyuN, no point in even trying to get his 23k$ back".
Real life story: in my 3rd world country of Poland, my mom was scammed for fucking 600 PLN (<200 USD) on Allegro (Polish equivalent of eBay). She sued the scumbag, got her money back, never had to pay anything (the seller had to). But HyuN should just forget about his 23k, move to another team and be scammed again.
Canada must be a horrible place to live.
There is a small but notable difference between your case and Hyun's. For one we do not know on what terms those 23k got to Simon in the first place.
I sent an e-mail to all the sponsors of Quantic Gaming. I hope someone finds that Simon dude and make him pay! In some countries they would chop off his hands if he'd be found guilty of theft...
Holy fuck.. I'm speechless... who the fuck would/could do this and live with himself? I thought that we were past this kind of bullshit happening but I guess there are plenty of assholes in "business" still.. stealing money from players who earned it, despicable
On January 02 2014 00:07 Tabashi wrote: I sent an e-mail to all the sponsors of Quantic Gaming. I hope someone finds that Simon dude and make him pay! In some countries they would chop off his hands if he'd be found guilty of theft...
Unless HyuN can somehow sell each of them for $11,500, that would not be of much use.
On January 02 2014 00:07 Tabashi wrote: I sent an e-mail to all the sponsors of Quantic Gaming. I hope someone finds that Simon dude and make him pay! In some countries they would chop off his hands if he'd be found guilty of theft...
Unless HyuN can somehow sell each of them for $11,500, that would not be of much use.
On January 02 2014 00:07 Tabashi wrote: I sent an e-mail to all the sponsors of Quantic Gaming. I hope someone finds that Simon dude and make him pay! In some countries they would chop off his hands if he'd be found guilty of theft...
Unless HyuN can somehow sell each of them for $11,500, that would not be of much use.
What a stupid post. Ever heard of "ubi culpa est, ibi poena subesse debet"? Cutting hands off is a very adequate punishment.
On January 01 2014 23:55 Emperor_Earth wrote: Let's hear Simon's side before we jump to conclusions.
If HyuN's story is true on the salient points, the story is quite damning.
I too wish people wouldn't be so quick to bring out the pitchforks, but there we are. The sensationalist thread title doesn't exactly help.
Lol......This has to be a joke post. Quantic Simon/Sambuca is a known scumbag. What more does he have to say? He's pulled so many scams over the years in multiple games. You really think this case is any different? Why do you think he went into hiding? Your mentality only hurts the community and Hyun.
Massive SC2/esports fan. I am also a litigation lawyer at a "Magic Circle" firm, specialising in international/cross-border disputes. Happy to take a look at options (for free) if the relevant person drops me a line privately.
On January 02 2014 00:07 Tabashi wrote: I sent an e-mail to all the sponsors of Quantic Gaming. I hope someone finds that Simon dude and make him pay! In some countries they would chop off his hands if he'd be found guilty of theft...
Unless HyuN can somehow sell each of them for $11,500, that would not be of much use.
What a stupid post. Ever heard of "ubi culpa est, ibi poena subesse debet"? Cutting hands off is a very adequate punishment.
Maybe by medieval standards, but last I heard we're in 2014 now.
On January 01 2014 23:58 dehydrogenaza wrote: Lol I love how the consensus of this thread seems to be "poor HyuN, no point in even trying to get his 23k$ back".
Real life story: in my 3rd world country of Poland, my mom was scammed for fucking 600 PLN (<200 USD) on Allegro (Polish equivalent of eBay). She sued the scumbag, got her money back, never had to pay anything (the seller had to). But HyuN should just forget about his 23k, move to another team and be scammed again.
Canada must be a horrible place to live.
There is a small but notable difference between your case and Hyun's. For one we do not know on what terms those 23k got to Simon in the first place.
Of course there is a huge difference, but assuming that the story presented in this thread is true, there is NO WAY IN HELL that Simon would get away with that money, as long as HyuN doesn't give up (which this thread seems to suggest). And assuming that Canada is not barbaric.
By canadian law he needs to claim anything over 1000 and pay taxes on anything transferred over 10k so i can see WHY he was doing things the way he was with the x amount of 950 payments, that doesnt mean i think its right.
On January 01 2014 23:55 Emperor_Earth wrote: Let's hear Simon's side before we jump to conclusions.
If HyuN's story is true on the salient points, the story is quite damning.
I too wish people wouldn't be so quick to bring out the pitchforks, but there we are. The sensationalist thread title doesn't exactly help.
Lol......This has to be a joke post. Quantic Simon/Sambuca is a known scumbag. What more does he have to say? He's pulled so many scams over the years in multiple games. You really think this case is any different? Why do you think he went into hiding? Your mentality only hurts the community and Hyun.
Be that as it may, everyone deserves an opportunity to explain themselves. Prejudice on a serious accusation before all testimony is presented is actually a very negative quality to have as a community member anywhere.
On January 02 2014 00:50 esdf wrote: no wonder majority of the world takes esport seriously.
hideous creatures like Simon are unfortunately a common appearance in esports.
And everywhere else. I've been cheated out of a (albeit almost insignificantly small in comparison to this) sum of money by a previous swimming team, and I know many other athletes have similar stories. It's just that in major sports, a large number of trustworthy and (for the most part) professionally run teams have emerged because there has been more time (and incentive) for them to do so. Esports is still a new thing and it's not particularly strange that a lot of would-be businessmen jumped on the train hoping it would lead to easy money and now jump shit because that wasn't the case.
On January 01 2014 23:55 Emperor_Earth wrote: Let's hear Simon's side before we jump to conclusions.
If HyuN's story is true on the salient points, the story is quite damning.
I too wish people wouldn't be so quick to bring out the pitchforks, but there we are. The sensationalist thread title doesn't exactly help.
Lol......This has to be a joke post. Quantic Simon/Sambuca is a known scumbag. What more does he have to say? He's pulled so many scams over the years in multiple games. You really think this case is any different? Why do you think he went into hiding? Your mentality only hurts the community and Hyun.
Be that as it may, everyone deserves an opportunity to explain themselves. Prejudice on a serious accusation before all testimony is presented is actually a very negative quality to have as a community member anywhere.
If I were accused of essentially stealing over twenty thousand dollars, I'd be very quick to get on the internet and explain the situation. Since Simon is yet to do so (and hasn't for months), and bearing the fact that Simon has proven himself untrustworthy and unprofessional in the past, this is one of those cases where we can be pretty sure what the "victim" is saying is the truth.
On January 02 2014 00:44 ZealotMaster wrote: Hello
Massive SC2/esports fan. I am also a litigation lawyer at a "Magic Circle" firm, specialising in international/cross-border disputes. Happy to take a look at options (for free) if the relevant person drops me a line privately.
Cheers
That's a mighty fine offer, I hope it gets read by the right persons Best of luck to Hyun, it's a shame we seem to have so many shady people in eSports.
On January 02 2014 00:07 Tabashi wrote: I sent an e-mail to all the sponsors of Quantic Gaming. I hope someone finds that Simon dude and make him pay! In some countries they would chop off his hands if he'd be found guilty of theft...
Unless HyuN can somehow sell each of them for $11,500, that would not be of much use.
What a stupid post. Ever heard of "ubi culpa est, ibi poena subesse debet"? Cutting hands off is a very adequate punishment.
What a stupid post. Ever heard of "we are in a civilized era and we don't cut off hands anymore" ?
Obviously no death threats and stupid shit like that, but he needs to understand you just don't treat people like this. He's either extremely selfish, a misanthrope or lacks any and all empathy. Or all of it.
I keep getting surprised by how incredibly callous people can be, but I guess I shouldn't be. Psychopaths and megalomaniacs always seem to find their way to the top, abusing the trust of everyone around them. So here's a big FUCK OFF to all of them, with a special mention to Simon Boudreault.
If Hyun has any sense he will terminate his contract immediately and hires a lawyer. I am sure there are people in e-sports willing to help Hyun on this matter.
On January 02 2014 00:44 ZealotMaster wrote: Hello
Massive SC2/esports fan. I am also a litigation lawyer at a "Magic Circle" firm, specialising in international/cross-border disputes. Happy to take a look at options (for free) if the relevant person drops me a line privately.
Cheers
I've contacted Golden and he and/or Hyun will try to get in touch with you tomorrow.
The money owed is too small for a Korean national to hire a US lawyer. It is just not worth it. The only way to get justice is to find Simon and beat him until he transfers the money.
On January 02 2014 00:44 ZealotMaster wrote: Hello
Massive SC2/esports fan. I am also a litigation lawyer at a "Magic Circle" firm, specialising in international/cross-border disputes. Happy to take a look at options (for free) if the relevant person drops me a line privately.
Cheers
I've contacted Golden and he and/or Hyun will try to get in touch with you tomorrow.
On January 02 2014 00:44 ZealotMaster wrote: Hello
Massive SC2/esports fan. I am also a litigation lawyer at a "Magic Circle" firm, specialising in international/cross-border disputes. Happy to take a look at options (for free) if the relevant person drops me a line privately.
Cheers
I've contacted Golden and he and/or Hyun will try to get in touch with you tomorrow.
On January 02 2014 01:31 illidanx wrote: The money owed is too small for a Korean national to hire a US lawyer. It is just not worth it. The only way to get justice is to find Simon and beat him until he transfers the money.
No, that is just about the last way to "get justice" anyone should even consider.
On January 02 2014 00:44 ZealotMaster wrote: Hello
Massive SC2/esports fan. I am also a litigation lawyer at a "Magic Circle" firm, specialising in international/cross-border disputes. Happy to take a look at options (for free) if the relevant person drops me a line privately.
Cheers
I've contacted Golden and he and/or Hyun will try to get in touch with you tomorrow.
On January 02 2014 01:31 illidanx wrote: The money owed is too small for a Korean national to hire a US lawyer. It is just not worth it. The only way to get justice is to find Simon and beat him until he transfers the money.
No, that is just about the last way to "get justice" anyone should even consider.
Response to my post in the Hyun tournament thread?
On January 02 2014 00:44 ZealotMaster wrote: Hello
Massive SC2/esports fan. I am also a litigation lawyer at a "Magic Circle" firm, specialising in international/cross-border disputes. Happy to take a look at options (for free) if the relevant person drops me a line privately.
Cheers
Just want to give you huge props for this. Good luck!
the way i see it, there have been many instances where an employer doesn't pay employees, and its a really tough situation where there may be nothing you can do about it besides realizes, hey, u don't pay me, im not going to work for you.
however, i don't understand the prize pool situation. why would a tournament ever pay the team and not the player? this makes literally zero sense to me, except for in a teamleague. individual tournament = pay the player.
as for hiring a lawyer and sueing him, theres no guarentee that he will win the case, and if he won the case, that he would ever collect on the judgement. There is what hyun says of their agreement to what he got paid, but that isnt necesary what his actual contract said, if he actually still has the contract, and if there are any stipulations on prizepools (i've heard league of legends players dont actually get their full winnings). Its really nice to see a lawyer volunteering to take a look at the case for free though. And people talk crap about lawyers!
from the post it looks to me like he was receiving $2200/month in salary, and hadnt received his full pay in ~7 months. I can only imagine how stressful it is flying to tournaments is, but you have to be more on top of your finances than going half a year without your pay and not doing anything about it. Not blaming hyun, hes definately not the first time someone has been taken advantage of. Players are young and inexperienced, and are probably led to just trust their team, but this is definately a lesson for all pro-gamers, if you are going to make a living playing, make sure you are actually getting paid.
Overall i feel really bad for him, thats a lot of money to get stiffed for, hope everything works out for him.
no wonder majority of the world takes esport seriously.
hideous creatures like Simon are unfortunately a common appearance in esports.
It's the same everywhere. I am mostly familiar with basketball of all sports, so believe me lawsuits are everywhere here. Maybe not with the top few NBA / Euroleague clubs, but everywhere else for sure. World does not take esports seriously because of stupid prejudice against computers games, no need to try and rationalize it.
as for hiring a lawyer and sueing him, theres no guarentee that he will win the case
There's never a guarantee to win the case, and yet this is how the justice is done in civilized world. We wouldn't need courts if there was a way to guarantee justice before the case is even opened.
"Taking legal actions to assist Hyun". Does this mean they don't have or just won't give him the money while they sue the scumbag themselves, and they're just going to try and be involved in a lawsuit that will never go anywhere so they can say it's not their fault and isolate the guy who was able to rank up in their organization as a thief without ever being caught or monitored by other employees properly?
no wonder majority of the world takes esport seriously.
hideous creatures like Simon are unfortunately a common appearance in esports.
It's the same everywhere. I am mostly familiar with basketball of all sports, so believe me lawsuits are everywhere here. Maybe not with the top few NBA / Euroleague clubs, but everywhere else for sure. World does not take esports seriously because of stupid prejudice against computers games, no need to try and rationalize it.
While I agree the world still wouldn't take esports very seriously otherwise (the word esports alone will never allow respect). I disagree about comparing it to the NBA. Out of the thousands of players who have been paid millions to play in the NBA, how many lost everything with no one to give them a paycheck in the meantime and no chance of being able to afford a lawyer and actually secure your money? This is very different than having a bad agent or manager, in America you usually get some of that money back. Hyun will probably not see his money if Quantic won't personally step in and pay him the money, which they won't.
"Taking legal actions to assist Hyun". Does this mean they don't have or just won't give him the money while they sue the scumbag themselves, and they're just going to try and be involved in a lawsuit that will never go anywhere so they can say it's not their fault and isolate the guy who was able to rank up in their organization as a thief without ever being caught or monitored by other employees properly?
So you want people completely unconnected with Hyun not being paid, pay with their own money?
"Taking legal actions to assist Hyun". Does this mean they don't have or just won't give him the money while they sue the scumbag themselves, and they're just going to try and be involved in a lawsuit that will never go anywhere so they can say it's not their fault and isolate the guy who was able to rank up in their organization as a thief without ever being caught or monitored by other employees properly?
So you want people completely unconnected with Hyun not being paid, pay with their own money?
Are you admitting Quantic was never a real company and just a scheme that shifts tournament money from team to team? Surely behind that logo and that official twitter account are other employees who did not steal money and have access to company bank accounts to help out their prized player in his time of need until he can win the lawsuit they're pretending he can win.
@ Oekenshield I compared esports to basketball in general, and NBA is way ahead of the rest of the world in every way.
However at the time I write this, my hometown basketball club Zalgiris owes money to at least two players and one coach officialy, most likely way more debts are yet to be made public, is not allowed to hire any new players, and is involved in multiple lawsuits. And it's Euroleague top 16 club with history dating back to forties, not some relatively new scamclub like quantic appears to be. And I hear stories like this constantly, at least with the European clubs.
"Taking legal actions to assist Hyun". Does this mean they don't have or just won't give him the money while they sue the scumbag themselves, and they're just going to try and be involved in a lawsuit that will never go anywhere so they can say it's not their fault and isolate the guy who was able to rank up in their organization as a thief without ever being caught or monitored by other employees properly?
So you want people completely unconnected with Hyun not being paid, pay with their own money?
Are you admitting Quantic was never a real company and just a scheme that shifts tournament money from team to team? Surely behind that logo and that official twitter account are other employees who did not steal money and have access to company bank accounts to help out their prized player in his time of need until he can win the lawsuit they're pretending he can win.
Most people working with/for Quantic were volunteers and are not to blame.
Taking the prize money of a starcraft player to pay the LoL-team... Not the smartest thing. I'm so sad for Hyun, I really hope everything gets sorted out soon.
"Taking legal actions to assist Hyun". Does this mean they don't have or just won't give him the money while they sue the scumbag themselves, and they're just going to try and be involved in a lawsuit that will never go anywhere so they can say it's not their fault and isolate the guy who was able to rank up in their organization as a thief without ever being caught or monitored by other employees properly?
So you want people completely unconnected with Hyun not being paid, pay with their own money?
Are you admitting Quantic was never a real company and just a scheme that shifts tournament money from team to team? Surely behind that logo and that official twitter account are other employees who did not steal money and have access to company bank accounts to help out their prized player in his time of need until he can win the lawsuit they're pretending he can win.
Quantic isn't this humongous organization, it's entirely likely that nobody had any access to the bank accounts other than the owner. That's pretty much how small businesses work.
"Taking legal actions to assist Hyun". Does this mean they don't have or just won't give him the money while they sue the scumbag themselves, and they're just going to try and be involved in a lawsuit that will never go anywhere so they can say it's not their fault and isolate the guy who was able to rank up in their organization as a thief without ever being caught or monitored by other employees properly?
Basically: -Simon took the money -Quantic is composed of mostly unpaid volunteers (these are the people who tweeted that) -They are looking to take "legal action" to help Hyun
For all we know, "legal action" might just mean the opposite of "illegal action" lmao, not necessarily anything related to legal proceedings. There is no indication that Quantic will be starting a lawsuit for Hyun. Their tweet was just vague reassurance.
Was Hyun contracted to Quantic, or to Simon? If it's to Quantic, then Quantic owes Hyun the money, and Simon has stolen the money from Quantic and owes them the money. So, Quantic, I wish you luck in your legal action against Simon.
What the HELL? Aren't there laws to protect people like this? This has to be some kind of a lawbreak. I just can't believe.... I hope it turns out good for Hyun, he's such a nice guy. If anyone can, please please help him T_T
"Taking legal actions to assist Hyun". Does this mean they don't have or just won't give him the money while they sue the scumbag themselves, and they're just going to try and be involved in a lawsuit that will never go anywhere so they can say it's not their fault and isolate the guy who was able to rank up in their organization as a thief without ever being caught or monitored by other employees properly?
Basically: -Simon took the money -Quantic is composed of mostly unpaid volunteers (these are the people who tweeted that) -They are looking to take "legal action" to help Hyun
For all we know, "legal action" might just mean the opposite of "illegal action" lmao, not necessarily anything related to legal proceedings. There is no indication that Quantic will be starting a lawsuit for Hyun. Their tweet was just vague reassurance.
The tweet is basically to deflect blame from the organization and onto simon. It means absolutely nothing.
On January 02 2014 02:40 sd_andeh wrote: What the HELL? Aren't there laws to protect people like this? This has to be some kind of a lawbreak. I just can't believe.... I hope it turns out good for Hyun, he's such a nice guy. If anyone can, please please help him T_T
There aren't laws because "esports" is a new field of entertainment. It's not as organized as professional sports. Most contracts are flimsy.
That's why Violet had to get an "Athlete's visa" and people made a big deal about it. They thought it was implying that Esports were a real sport, but really, it was just the fact that there is no such thing as a progamer's visa (as of right now).
"Taking legal actions to assist Hyun". Does this mean they don't have or just won't give him the money while they sue the scumbag themselves, and they're just going to try and be involved in a lawsuit that will never go anywhere so they can say it's not their fault and isolate the guy who was able to rank up in their organization as a thief without ever being caught or monitored by other employees properly?
Basically: -Simon took the money -Quantic is composed of mostly unpaid volunteers (these are the people who tweeted that) -They are looking to take "legal action" to help Hyun
For all we know, "legal action" might just mean the opposite of "illegal action" lmao, not necessarily anything related to legal proceedings. There is no indication that Quantic will be starting a lawsuit for Hyun. Their tweet was just vague reassurance.
The tweet is basically to deflect blame from the organization and onto simon. It means absolutely nothing.
Exactly. Please stop paying attention to a stupid tweet, people.
Ok, at this point I'm genuinely intrigued by Canada's legal system. Here, in a less civilized country, a case like this (once again, assuming all the info in this thread is correct) admittedly takes some time (too long), but >90% of the time ends up with the scammer having to pay what he owes + costs of the trial, and if he can't (like, literally can't, because the government then takes control of his possession), then he has to hand over up to 60% of his salary until the entire debt is paid. There is an initial fee of about 100$ to start the case, but when it's won, the victim gets a refund of that also.
Why is it such a big problem in Canada? Is it because the initial cost of the trial is absurd, or is it because there is no way to enforce payment even if the case is won?
On January 02 2014 02:40 sd_andeh wrote: What the HELL? Aren't there laws to protect people like this? This has to be some kind of a lawbreak. I just can't believe.... I hope it turns out good for Hyun, he's such a nice guy. If anyone can, please please help him T_T
There aren't laws because "esports" is a new field of entertainment. It's not as organized as professional sports. Most contracts are flimsy.
That's why Violet had to get an "Athlete's visa" and people made a big deal about it. They thought it was implying that Esports were a real sport, but really, it was just the fact that there is no such thing as a progamer's visa (as of right now).
I don't know what country you hail from, but in the case of the countries involved, contract law is it's own code section mostly independent of the subject matter. Esports has very little to do with the contract and the consequences of it going unfulfilled, only the parties involved and the content of the contract are relevant.
And the half baked thought that seems to be floating around currently is apparently "The whole organization of Quantic is to blame." Apparently a lot of you are very far disconnected from the world when it comes to who actually gets to handle money, especially in volunteer/unpaid organizations. And also why a bunch of volunteer employees would ever help their CEO embezzle money in the first place...
On January 02 2014 02:40 sd_andeh wrote: What the HELL? Aren't there laws to protect people like this? This has to be some kind of a lawbreak. I just can't believe.... I hope it turns out good for Hyun, he's such a nice guy. If anyone can, please please help him T_T
There aren't laws because "esports" is a new field of entertainment. It's not as organized as professional sports. Most contracts are flimsy.
That's why Violet had to get an "Athlete's visa" and people made a big deal about it. They thought it was implying that Esports were a real sport, but really, it was just the fact that there is no such thing as a progamer's visa (as of right now).
I don't know what country you hail from, but in the case of the countries involved, contract law is it's own code section mostly independent of the subject matter. Esports has very little to do with the contract and the consequences of it going unfulfilled, only the parties involved and the content of the contract are relevant.
Yes but the problem is most Esports contracts were written on toilet paper or McDonalds napkins. As I said, they are just flimsy, meaningless documents.
On January 02 2014 02:40 sd_andeh wrote: What the HELL? Aren't there laws to protect people like this? This has to be some kind of a lawbreak. I just can't believe.... I hope it turns out good for Hyun, he's such a nice guy. If anyone can, please please help him T_T
There aren't laws because "esports" is a new field of entertainment. It's not as organized as professional sports. Most contracts are flimsy.
That's why Violet had to get an "Athlete's visa" and people made a big deal about it. They thought it was implying that Esports were a real sport, but really, it was just the fact that there is no such thing as a progamer's visa (as of right now).
I don't know what country you hail from, but in the case of the countries involved, contract law is it's own code section mostly independent of the subject matter. Esports has very little to do with the contract and the consequences of it going unfulfilled, only the parties involved and the content of the contract are relevant.
And the half baked thought that seems to be floating around currently is apparently "The whole organization of Quantic is to blame." Apparently a lot of you are very far disconnected from the world when it comes to who actually gets to handle money, especially in volunteer/unpaid organizations. And also why a bunch of volunteer employees would ever help their CEO embezzle money in the first place...
it doesnt matter who is to blame, it matters who is legally responsible (which i honestly don't know since i dont know anything about international contracts), but i would assume, as i think most people are, the "quantic", and not simon, is responsible to pay the money, so hypothetically, if quantic was bankrupt with no money to pay, then simon could just walk away.
On January 02 2014 02:40 sd_andeh wrote: What the HELL? Aren't there laws to protect people like this? This has to be some kind of a lawbreak. I just can't believe.... I hope it turns out good for Hyun, he's such a nice guy. If anyone can, please please help him T_T
There aren't laws because "esports" is a new field of entertainment. It's not as organized as professional sports. Most contracts are flimsy.
That's why Violet had to get an "Athlete's visa" and people made a big deal about it. They thought it was implying that Esports were a real sport, but really, it was just the fact that there is no such thing as a progamer's visa (as of right now).
I don't know what country you hail from, but in the case of the countries involved, contract law is it's own code section mostly independent of the subject matter. Esports has very little to do with the contract and the consequences of it going unfulfilled, only the parties involved and the content of the contract are relevant.
And the half baked thought that seems to be floating around currently is apparently "The whole organization of Quantic is to blame." Apparently a lot of you are very far disconnected from the world when it comes to who actually gets to handle money, especially in volunteer/unpaid organizations. And also why a bunch of volunteer employees would ever help their CEO embezzle money in the first place...
it doesnt matter who is to blame, it matters who is legally responsible (which i honestly don't know since i dont know anything about international contracts), but i would assume, as i think most people are, the "quantic", and not simon, is responsible to pay the money, so hypothetically, if quantic was bankrupt with no money to pay, then simon could just walk away.
Quantic owes Hyun, however Quantic can easily make claim that Simon owes Quantic.
On January 02 2014 02:40 sd_andeh wrote: What the HELL? Aren't there laws to protect people like this? This has to be some kind of a lawbreak. I just can't believe.... I hope it turns out good for Hyun, he's such a nice guy. If anyone can, please please help him T_T
There aren't laws because "esports" is a new field of entertainment. It's not as organized as professional sports. Most contracts are flimsy.
That's why Violet had to get an "Athlete's visa" and people made a big deal about it. They thought it was implying that Esports were a real sport, but really, it was just the fact that there is no such thing as a progamer's visa (as of right now).
I don't know what country you hail from, but in the case of the countries involved, contract law is it's own code section mostly independent of the subject matter. Esports has very little to do with the contract and the consequences of it going unfulfilled, only the parties involved and the content of the contract are relevant.
And the half baked thought that seems to be floating around currently is apparently "The whole organization of Quantic is to blame." Apparently a lot of you are very far disconnected from the world when it comes to who actually gets to handle money, especially in volunteer/unpaid organizations. And also why a bunch of volunteer employees would ever help their CEO embezzle money in the first place...
it doesnt matter who is to blame, it matters who is legally responsible (which i honestly don't know since i dont know anything about international contracts), but i would assume, as i think most people are, the "quantic", and not simon, is responsible to pay the money, so hypothetically, if quantic was bankrupt with no money to pay, then simon could just walk away.
Quantic owes Hyun, however Quantic can easily make claim that Simon owes Quantic.
On January 02 2014 02:40 sd_andeh wrote: What the HELL? Aren't there laws to protect people like this? This has to be some kind of a lawbreak. I just can't believe.... I hope it turns out good for Hyun, he's such a nice guy. If anyone can, please please help him T_T
There aren't laws because "esports" is a new field of entertainment. It's not as organized as professional sports. Most contracts are flimsy.
That's why Violet had to get an "Athlete's visa" and people made a big deal about it. They thought it was implying that Esports were a real sport, but really, it was just the fact that there is no such thing as a progamer's visa (as of right now).
I don't know what country you hail from, but in the case of the countries involved, contract law is it's own code section mostly independent of the subject matter. Esports has very little to do with the contract and the consequences of it going unfulfilled, only the parties involved and the content of the contract are relevant.
Yes but the problem is most Esports contracts were written on toilet paper or McDonalds napkins. As I said, they are just flimsy, meaningless documents.
As long as the basic needs for a contract are met (even if it is on a napkin), the contract is legally binding. Esports isn't that new, and in any case the subject matter would probably be salaries and division of winnings, which have been around forever. Unless you're arguing that Hyun signed a bum contract (which would be his fault), then I'm not sure where you are going.
The real problem with Esports is the financial stability and backing of organizations like Quantic, not the contracts. As to the ownership of the company and the terms of who is responsible for what in the contract, we have very little idea on this. Which is why there is little point in arguing over it.
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
On January 02 2014 02:40 sd_andeh wrote: What the HELL? Aren't there laws to protect people like this? This has to be some kind of a lawbreak. I just can't believe.... I hope it turns out good for Hyun, he's such a nice guy. If anyone can, please please help him T_T
There aren't laws because "esports" is a new field of entertainment. It's not as organized as professional sports. Most contracts are flimsy.
That's why Violet had to get an "Athlete's visa" and people made a big deal about it. They thought it was implying that Esports were a real sport, but really, it was just the fact that there is no such thing as a progamer's visa (as of right now).
I don't know what country you hail from, but in the case of the countries involved, contract law is it's own code section mostly independent of the subject matter. Esports has very little to do with the contract and the consequences of it going unfulfilled, only the parties involved and the content of the contract are relevant.
Yes but the problem is most Esports contracts were written on toilet paper or McDonalds napkins. As I said, they are just flimsy, meaningless documents.
As long as the basic needs for a contract are met (even if it is on a napkin), the contract is legally binding. Esports isn't that new, and in any case the subject matter would probably be salaries and division of winnings, which have been around forever. Unless you're arguing that Hyun signed a bum contract (which would be his fault), then I'm not sure where you are going.
The real problem with Esports is the financial stability and backing of organizations like Quantic, not the contracts. As to the ownership of the company and the terms of who is responsible for what in the contract, we have very little idea on this. Which is why there is little point in arguing over it.
The real problem with eSports is that many of the managers and owners don't actually know what they are doing. Really sad for Hyun...
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Please. We know that my opinion is the one that matters. Your team is imaginary and you run it with Monopoly money, which I have deduced from the the fact that both you and the Monopoly man wear top hats. You are also now a media conglomerate.
too many incompetent fuckers are allowed to run rampant in the scene and take complete advantage of the players because either the underlings are just as incompetent, or they're too blinded by #ESPORTS to realize they're part of the many problems every young 20 year old something has to endure while not gaining an education, experience or money (<--because of their incompetence!!!) . or worse they're just morally corrupt and don't actually care.
This is just pathetic. It's like he's a moron at a blackjack table gambling away hyun's money and feeling sorry for himself when he went off and lost it all. Because that's exactly what it is.
We need more Xeris's in the world and less dumb asses leading teams.
This is just pathetic. It's like he's a moron at a blackjack table gambling away hyun's money and feeling sorry for himself when he went off and lost it all. Because that's exactly what it is.
We need more Xeris's in the world and less dumb asses leading teams.
Hopefully you noticed that the tweet you just linked is from more than 3 weeks ago
simon sounds like a young kid using daddys money to run a pro gaming team with no prior business or managmentskills, this was a reciepe for disaster. if hyun takes it to court with all the evidence he has im sure he'll be reimbursed
On January 02 2014 02:40 sd_andeh wrote: What the HELL? Aren't there laws to protect people like this? This has to be some kind of a lawbreak. I just can't believe.... I hope it turns out good for Hyun, he's such a nice guy. If anyone can, please please help him T_T
There aren't laws because "esports" is a new field of entertainment. It's not as organized as professional sports. Most contracts are flimsy.
That's why Violet had to get an "Athlete's visa" and people made a big deal about it. They thought it was implying that Esports were a real sport, but really, it was just the fact that there is no such thing as a progamer's visa (as of right now).
eSports is subject to the same laws as any other sports/business/whatever.
laws don't need to be made for every possible matter of fact. They rather need to be general enough that they can be applied to many situations. Otherwise the law would not be flexible enough to keep up with the ever-changing society. That is also why violet got an athletes' visa. Existing law applied to a new situation. No need to pass an Pro-Gamer Visa Act or anything along those lines.
Anyone got this guy's address? I know a few people who are very, very persuasive and might be able to pay him a visit (depending on location). PM me if you have his address.
This is just pathetic. It's like he's a moron at a blackjack table gambling away hyun's money and feeling sorry for himself when he went off and lost it all. Because that's exactly what it is.
We need more Xeris's in the world and less dumb asses leading teams.
Hopefully you noticed that the tweet you just linked is from more than 3 weeks ago
does that change anything? he's still an incompetent little fucker who decides to pity himself when he's responsible for the people and players under him.
On January 02 2014 03:45 Cereb wrote: Please inform us when this ass has been appropriately punished and HyuN has received his money
Simon the scammer is gone forever. He is in hiding now. He will likely never be found.
The SC2 community lost its last chance to confront him about his shady dealings in esports when they let him off the hook with Massan's incident. Truly tragic.
Omg, this is really really sad. I really hope he's able to get the money still, I would even donate to make that possible, if lots of people would help..
On January 02 2014 03:55 mikumegurine wrote: any Lawyer SC2 players here on TL that can help out Hyun for free with legal consulation?
One offer has been presented
On January 02 2014 00:44 ZealotMaster wrote: Hello
Massive SC2/esports fan. I am also a litigation lawyer at a "Magic Circle" firm, specialising in international/cross-border disputes. Happy to take a look at options (for free) if the relevant person drops me a line privately.
On January 02 2014 03:45 Cereb wrote: Please inform us when this ass has been appropriately punished and HyuN has received his money
Simon the scammer is gone forever. He is in hiding now. He will likely never be found.
The SC2 community lost its last chance to confront him about his shady dealings in esports when they let him off the hook with Massan's incident. Truly tragic.
He will likely never be found? What are you even talking about. His contact details are known to the Quantic crew. Massan even lived with that guy and his family. He is just not available online. There is no information about him being in hiding or anything. Jeez...
How has there not been a lawsuit for all the money this guy has stolen from various players? It is high time that Every team that has stolen money from players get put into the spotlight. If Esports wants to become legitimate it's time for the heads of teams to start becoming accountable, and time for all players to put any troubles regarding the money THEY earned into the spotlight so we as fans know not to EVER support these sleezy manangers. How has no one taken a stand against this guy before? He's done this a few times already now.
This is just pathetic. It's like he's a moron at a blackjack table gambling away hyun's money and feeling sorry for himself when he went off and lost it all. Because that's exactly what it is.
We need more Xeris's in the world and less dumb asses leading teams.
Hopefully you noticed that the tweet you just linked is from more than 3 weeks ago
does that change anything? he's still an incompetent little fucker who decides to pity himself when he's responsible for the people and players under him.
To add context to the original tweet you posted, the Quantic LoL team (the one from Korea that came to the US) jokingly made the reference to crushing the hopes and dreams of their competition. Ending with "what ever" doesn't really suggest self pity at all.
I agree he is very incompetent and appears to be dodging responsibility, I just thought you could use some context.
On January 02 2014 03:45 Cereb wrote: Please inform us when this ass has been appropriately punished and HyuN has received his money
Simon the scammer is gone forever. He is in hiding now. He will likely never be found.
The SC2 community lost its last chance to confront him about his shady dealings in esports when they let him off the hook with Massan's incident. Truly tragic.
He will likely never be found? What are you even talking about. His contact details are known to the Quantic crew. Massan even lived with that guy and his family. He is just not available online. There is no information about him being in hiding or anything. Jeez...
Yeah thats what I was thinking. There must be people on Quantic who know him irl, or atleast knows him good enough that they have his adress, contact information and such. And this Simon probably has a family who knows where he is. Im sure he is just living his life as usual offline. It cant be impossible to get a hold of him.
On January 02 2014 02:40 sd_andeh wrote: What the HELL? Aren't there laws to protect people like this? This has to be some kind of a lawbreak. I just can't believe.... I hope it turns out good for Hyun, he's such a nice guy. If anyone can, please please help him T_T
There aren't laws because "esports" is a new field of entertainment. It's not as organized as professional sports. Most contracts are flimsy.
That's why Violet had to get an "Athlete's visa" and people made a big deal about it. They thought it was implying that Esports were a real sport, but really, it was just the fact that there is no such thing as a progamer's visa (as of right now).
eSports is subject to the same laws as any other sports/business/whatever.
Exactly. It's not a matter of esports. Quantic is a business, a business that hasn't paid out it's employee(s). End of all discussions.
Yes and actually Hyun shouldn't ask for this tourney he should simply ask for a Lawyer that's enthusiastic about eSports represent him probono and Sue him for Emotional Distress and Back Pay and Also report him to the BBB.
This is actually small claims but No judge is going to see this as good business practice.... especially when its a breach of contract.... which actually Hyun you don't have to play for Quantic anymore if he isn't paying you... check your contract to see what the terms actually are.....
If someone can make a contract and then break it and there is nothing to do about it besides taking more losses than gains, does that mean the legal system is broken?
Good thing guys like Savior were banned for life, while this scumbag and the likes have no problem whatsoever. Hyun - as many others - is damaging life health, spend his time and efforts, basically *his life* to be a player and entertainer, and mr. Simon is nowhere to be found (right). As for contracts on McDonalds napkins, they're good. I think Hyun should sue this mofo and let him naked, take his house, something, to prevent players from such abuse. Otherwise, what? a syndicate? Already sounds moronic; I imagine a Jimmy Hoffa-like telling Jaedong "today comes the mayor, so you have to play terran".
Why do teams get prize money for individual players? Doesn't make sense to me. Bad that he isn't going to get paid. Bad that he trusted someone else with his money.
oh well if i were him i would have snapped as soon as i didnt get my salary 3x(max!) in a row...nice guys always get fucked in the ass, everybody learns it eventually :/
This really blows...its days like this where I wish the players would just be able to receive the money, but pay dues or costs to the team AFTER they get their winnings...not vice versa...=/
On January 02 2014 06:14 NoobSkills wrote: Why do teams get prize money for individual players? Doesn't make sense to me. Bad that he isn't going to get paid. Bad that he trusted someone else with his money.
Players often have an option to pay out to themselves directly or to their team. The difference is that if it's paid directly to them, they often get slammed with taxes (international or otherwise). They can get some pretty big tax breaks on their income through paying it to their team instead and having the team distribute it.
Hyun get a lawyer to make Simon pay, He can not just run off without paying you your money that you earned. Also go find another team to play on. Believe me any team would be lucky to have you on their roster.
On January 02 2014 06:14 NoobSkills wrote: Why do teams get prize money for individual players? Doesn't make sense to me. Bad that he isn't going to get paid. Bad that he trusted someone else with his money.
Players often have an option to pay out to themselves directly or to their team. The difference is that if it's paid directly to them, they often get slammed with taxes (international or otherwise). They can get some pretty big tax breaks on their income through paying it to their team instead and having the team distribute it.
Money won in a country has to have taxes paid in the country. Doesn't matter who it goes to, the taxes must be paid. It makes no difference who it goes to. The reason why the money went to the team were: 1. Language barrier when it comes to collecting 2. Team offered to solve that language barrier 3. The team owner wanted the money because of what is happening now.
In the end though I don't trust enough people especially with money. Money alone is tempting, but your team owner isn't the same as a family member or a friend and even those people sometimes steal money.
On January 02 2014 06:14 NoobSkills wrote: Why do teams get prize money for individual players? Doesn't make sense to me. Bad that he isn't going to get paid. Bad that he trusted someone else with his money.
Players often have an option to pay out to themselves directly or to their team. The difference is that if it's paid directly to them, they often get slammed with taxes (international or otherwise). They can get some pretty big tax breaks on their income through paying it to their team instead and having the team distribute it.
Money won in a country has to have taxes paid in the country. Doesn't matter who it goes to, the taxes must be paid. It makes no difference who it goes to. The reason why the money went to the team were: 1. Language barrier when it comes to collecting 2. Team offered to solve that language barrier 3. The team owner wanted the money because of what is happening now.
In the end though I don't trust enough people especially with money. Money alone is tempting, but your team owner isn't the same as a family member or a friend and even those people sometimes steal money.
The bolded, specifically, is incorrect dependant on jurisdiction.
On January 02 2014 06:14 NoobSkills wrote: Why do teams get prize money for individual players? Doesn't make sense to me. Bad that he isn't going to get paid. Bad that he trusted someone else with his money.
Players often have an option to pay out to themselves directly or to their team. The difference is that if it's paid directly to them, they often get slammed with taxes (international or otherwise). They can get some pretty big tax breaks on their income through paying it to their team instead and having the team distribute it.
Money won in a country has to have taxes paid in the country. Doesn't matter who it goes to, the taxes must be paid. It makes no difference who it goes to.
On January 02 2014 06:14 NoobSkills wrote: Why do teams get prize money for individual players? Doesn't make sense to me. Bad that he isn't going to get paid. Bad that he trusted someone else with his money.
Players often have an option to pay out to themselves directly or to their team. The difference is that if it's paid directly to them, they often get slammed with taxes (international or otherwise). They can get some pretty big tax breaks on their income through paying it to their team instead and having the team distribute it.
Money won in a country has to have taxes paid in the country. Doesn't matter who it goes to, the taxes must be paid. It makes no difference who it goes to. The reason why the money went to the team were: 1. Language barrier when it comes to collecting 2. Team offered to solve that language barrier 3. The team owner wanted the money because of what is happening now.
In the end though I don't trust enough people especially with money. Money alone is tempting, but your team owner isn't the same as a family member or a friend and even those people sometimes steal money.
The bolded, specifically, is incorrect dependant on jurisdiction.
The bolded is correct, but may be negated by jurisdiction. If I won WCS Kor and paid taxes in Korea and came back to the income would be given a credit for up to 92,000 after that I would have to pay taxes on it again. Now, specifically you could argue that taxes in a foreign country if a team/LLC/corp/small buisness was to take the money you might save money in taxes when compared to filing it as personal income. In the end though trusting someone with your money isn't wise.
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
Is Alliance a Swedish team or an American team? :o
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around. Team full of Koreans, that lives in Korea, trains in the Korean style, is coached by a Korean, is physically based in a Korean house, yeah they're probably Korean. Your definitions means nothing. Oooh how fancy, you've been organising what you think teams are since Brood War. I'm in awe.
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
Oh you two arguing about how to classify a team. In the end though throughout all your back and forth it really doesn't matter how you classify it because nobody gives a shit. Korean or foreign it is still just a team. Only becomes an issue when the Olympics adopt SC2 as a competitive sport. Then it would be Korean and then S.Kor would be guaranteed 1 gold medal per Olympics.
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
oh shit we better not calling a timing attack a timing attack then, they're meaningless in the eyes of TB.
I'm not demanding or telling your team to be anything, im telling you what the majority of people who follow our game think of your team as, you can either fight it or accept, the reality is people relate Axiom with Foreign teams because of YOU. stop over reading what im saying and acting like everyone who disagrees with you is obviously "cancerous" and a "troll"
Starcraft 2, especially in Korea is built upon the foundation of BW that is where we get majority of our definitions, whether you like Sc1 or Sc2 is irrelevant.
But im am glad you think im cancerous that's a wonderful thing to say to another human being who disagrees with you. even on the internet...
Dudes, is that how you want to start the New Year? If you can't help HyuN, then use PM or something for such fights. At the moment, both of you embarrass the entities you represent, so leave that discussion as it is. Just my 2 cents.
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
oh shit we better not calling a timing attack a timing attack then, they're meaningless in the eyes of TB.
I'm not demanding or telling your team to be anything, im telling you what the majority of people who follow our game think of your team as, you can either fight it or accept, the reality is people relate Axiom with Foreign teams because of YOU. stop over reading what im saying and acting like everyone who disagrees with you is obviously "cancerous" and a "troll"
Starcraft 2, especially in Korea is built upon the foundation of BW that is where we get majority of our definitions, whether you like Sc1 or Sc2 is irrelevant.
But im am glad you think im cancerous that's a wonderful thing to say to another human being who disagrees with you. even on the internet...
Gee maybe if you didn't want to be insulted you probably shouldn't have started posting insults. Your expertise on this forum apparently doesn't extend to that. You're cancerous and a troll because that's how you acted. How short is your memory?
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that..
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
run along manchild.
So the moral of the story is, if you want to be treated with respect, don't act like a haughty little shit for no reason. Mindblowing right?
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
oh shit we better not calling a timing attack a timing attack then, they're meaningless in the eyes of TB.
I'm not demanding or telling your team to be anything, im telling you what the majority of people who follow our game think of your team as, you can either fight it or accept, the reality is people relate Axiom with Foreign teams because of YOU. stop over reading what im saying and acting like everyone who disagrees with you is obviously "cancerous" and a "troll"
Starcraft 2, especially in Korea is built upon the foundation of BW that is where we get majority of our definitions, whether you like Sc1 or Sc2 is irrelevant.
But im am glad you think im cancerous that's a wonderful thing to say to another human being who disagrees with you. even on the internet...
Gee maybe if you didn't want to be insulted you probably shouldn't have started posting insults. Your expertise on this forum apparently doesn't extend to that. You're cancerous and a troll because that's how you acted. How short is your memory?
So the moral of the story is, if you want to be treated with respect, don't act like a haughty little shit for no reason. Mindblowing right?
I'm sorry i didn't know playing upon your own name was an insult, and im not insulting you in any other comment except maybe manchild, but that's a jab at your attitude which you know you have when you argue, but i would never compare that to being cancerous, you're attitude is annoying for sure, but according you i'm a mutative growth that causes pain and disease and eventually kills? ok
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
oh shit we better not calling a timing attack a timing attack then, they're meaningless in the eyes of TB.
I'm not demanding or telling your team to be anything, im telling you what the majority of people who follow our game think of your team as, you can either fight it or accept, the reality is people relate Axiom with Foreign teams because of YOU. stop over reading what im saying and acting like everyone who disagrees with you is obviously "cancerous" and a "troll"
Starcraft 2, especially in Korea is built upon the foundation of BW that is where we get majority of our definitions, whether you like Sc1 or Sc2 is irrelevant.
But im am glad you think im cancerous that's a wonderful thing to say to another human being who disagrees with you. even on the internet...
Gee maybe if you didn't want to be insulted you probably shouldn't have started posting insults. Your expertise on this forum apparently doesn't extend to that. You're cancerous and a troll because that's how you acted. How short is your memory?
On January 01 2014 16:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: [quote]
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
oh shit we better not calling a timing attack a timing attack then, they're meaningless in the eyes of TB.
I'm not demanding or telling your team to be anything, im telling you what the majority of people who follow our game think of your team as, you can either fight it or accept, the reality is people relate Axiom with Foreign teams because of YOU. stop over reading what im saying and acting like everyone who disagrees with you is obviously "cancerous" and a "troll"
Starcraft 2, especially in Korea is built upon the foundation of BW that is where we get majority of our definitions, whether you like Sc1 or Sc2 is irrelevant.
But im am glad you think im cancerous that's a wonderful thing to say to another human being who disagrees with you. even on the internet...
Gee maybe if you didn't want to be insulted you probably shouldn't have started posting insults. Your expertise on this forum apparently doesn't extend to that. You're cancerous and a troll because that's how you acted. How short is your memory?
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that..
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
run along manchild.
So the moral of the story is, if you want to be treated with respect, don't act like a haughty little shit for no reason. Mindblowing right?
I'm sorry i didn't know playing upon your own name was an insult, and im not insulting you in any other comment except maybe manchild, but that's a jab at your attitude which you know you have when you argue, but i would never compare that to being cancerous, you're attitude is annoying for sure, but according you i'm a mutative growth that causes pain and disease and eventually kills? ok
Little English lesson for you. Words mean different things.
" 2. A pernicious, spreading evil: A cancer of bigotry spread through the community. "
That cancerous attitude I'm talking about is from people that attack players, team owners, tournament organisers, casters etc for no good reason and in doing so actively make this scene just a little bit worse. And make no mistake that attitude is a cancer and over the last few years it has absolutely done damage. Let's answer your next question before you post it "so does that mean you're immune to criticism just because you own a team?", no of course not, but maybe my opinion on what my team is matters a bit more than yours and probably doesn't deserve the sneering ire of someone like you. Oh, you didn't know it was an insult? Bullshit. You've done nothing but sneer and make disdainful remarks, so whatever dumb grudge it is you're holding, maybe you should keep it out of this thread. I've had to deal with the elitism of people like you since 2010 and I'm getting just a bit tired of it.
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
oh shit we better not calling a timing attack a timing attack then, they're meaningless in the eyes of TB.
I'm not demanding or telling your team to be anything, im telling you what the majority of people who follow our game think of your team as, you can either fight it or accept, the reality is people relate Axiom with Foreign teams because of YOU. stop over reading what im saying and acting like everyone who disagrees with you is obviously "cancerous" and a "troll"
Starcraft 2, especially in Korea is built upon the foundation of BW that is where we get majority of our definitions, whether you like Sc1 or Sc2 is irrelevant.
But im am glad you think im cancerous that's a wonderful thing to say to another human being who disagrees with you. even on the internet...
Gee maybe if you didn't want to be insulted you probably shouldn't have started posting insults. Your expertise on this forum apparently doesn't extend to that. You're cancerous and a troll because that's how you acted. How short is your memory?
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that..
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
run along manchild.
So the moral of the story is, if you want to be treated with respect, don't act like a haughty little shit for no reason. Mindblowing right?
I'm sorry i didn't know playing upon your own name was an insult, and im not insulting you in any other comment except maybe manchild, but that's a jab at your attitude which you know you have when you argue, but i would never compare that to being cancerous, you're attitude is annoying for sure, but according you i'm a mutative growth that causes pain and disease and eventually kills? ok
Little English lesson for you. Words mean different things.
" 2. A pernicious, spreading evil: A cancer of bigotry spread through the community. "
That cancerous attitude I'm talking about is from people that attack players, team owners, tournament organisers, casters etc for no good reason and in doing so actively make this scene just a little bit worse. And make no mistake that attitude is a cancer and over the last few years it has absolutely done damage. Let's answer your next question before you post it "so does that mean you're immune to criticism just because you own a team?", no of course not, but maybe my opinion on what my team is matters a bit more than yours and probably doesn't deserve the sneering ire of someone like you. Oh, you didn't know it was an insult? Bullshit. You've done nothing but sneer and make disdainful remarks, so whatever dumb grudge it is you're holding, maybe you should keep it out of this thread.
I hold no grudge, i just want you to know people still think of Axiom as Foreign regardless of what you or your team think, and as i said you don't have to accept it, but flying into threads to comment about it, is what mainly bothers me, why do you care so much if your team is called Foreign or Korean anyway...
Sigh, people are right, i should really stop discussing this with you here... or ever...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
oh shit we better not calling a timing attack a timing attack then, they're meaningless in the eyes of TB.
I'm not demanding or telling your team to be anything, im telling you what the majority of people who follow our game think of your team as, you can either fight it or accept, the reality is people relate Axiom with Foreign teams because of YOU. stop over reading what im saying and acting like everyone who disagrees with you is obviously "cancerous" and a "troll"
Starcraft 2, especially in Korea is built upon the foundation of BW that is where we get majority of our definitions, whether you like Sc1 or Sc2 is irrelevant.
But im am glad you think im cancerous that's a wonderful thing to say to another human being who disagrees with you. even on the internet...
Gee maybe if you didn't want to be insulted you probably shouldn't have started posting insults. Your expertise on this forum apparently doesn't extend to that. You're cancerous and a troll because that's how you acted. How short is your memory?
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that..
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
run along manchild.
So the moral of the story is, if you want to be treated with respect, don't act like a haughty little shit for no reason. Mindblowing right?
I'm sorry i didn't know playing upon your own name was an insult, and im not insulting you in any other comment except maybe manchild, but that's a jab at your attitude which you know you have when you argue, but i would never compare that to being cancerous, you're attitude is annoying for sure, but according you i'm a mutative growth that causes pain and disease and eventually kills? ok
Little English lesson for you. Words mean different things.
" 2. A pernicious, spreading evil: A cancer of bigotry spread through the community. "
That cancerous attitude I'm talking about is from people that attack players, team owners, tournament organisers, casters etc for no good reason and in doing so actively make this scene just a little bit worse. And make no mistake that attitude is a cancer and over the last few years it has absolutely done damage. Let's answer your next question before you post it "so does that mean you're immune to criticism just because you own a team?", no of course not, but maybe my opinion on what my team is matters a bit more than yours and probably doesn't deserve the sneering ire of someone like you. Oh, you didn't know it was an insult? Bullshit. You've done nothing but sneer and make disdainful remarks, so whatever dumb grudge it is you're holding, maybe you should keep it out of this thread. I've had to deal with the elitism of people like you since 2010 and I'm getting just a bit tired of it.
could you pm the shit out of each other instead of doin' it right here?
If i had report immunity like this Soda guy i'd abuse it too. God what a load of crap.
Never considered Axiom anything but Korean. Ownership is merely that. They've always bean a Korean team in intent, and in practise. Not sure why people think otherwise. Is there a poll to back up the ignorance of the supposed majority thinking they're foreign? Foreign owned is the best you could say if you want to distinguish them.
on topic, suck to be Hyun. That paying to teams thing always annoyed me, but it's more a matter of me not trusting anyone. Sure you could trust a Liquid or EG or Axiom, i'd hope. When Quantic was formed i'm pretty sure i remember them getting shit on from the get go as far as reliability was concerned. It just feels like this was always going to happen. Being Korean Hyun is even more vulnerable and i doubt this guy is as eager to steal from a foreigner, who in theory would be more capable of doing something about it.
I just wish we could have stopped this somehow, like, there's no structure in place whatsoever. Is there even a support network or someone to cry to earlier? This should've been dealt with a long time ago, Stockholm was in like April right? Bah!
On January 02 2014 08:36 ZodaSoda wrote: I hold no grudge, i just want you to know people still think of Axiom as Foreign regardless of what you or your team think, and as i said you don't have to accept it, but flying into threads to comment about it, is what mainly bothers me, why do you care so much if your team is called Foreign or Korean anyway...
And by people you mean "you". Why wouldn't I comment on it? It's my job to make sure misinformation about the team isn't taken as common lore. I care because the brand actually matters and it's my job to steer it in the right direction.
Sigh, people are right, i should really stop discussing this with you here... or ever...
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
Stop bickering you two this is about making sure Hyun gets what he deserves! Having an argument over stupid stuff isn't helpful. >.>
TotalBiscuit and ZodaSoda can you please argue about the definition of a Korean team somewhere else? Seriously why is everybody discussing TB comments all the time... and why are you TB always adding fuel to this ...
back to topic please.
(no offense to anyone but this is really the wrong topic to spam this kindergarten trash...)
[please don't respond to this and just talk elsewhere]
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
Stop bickering you two this is about making sure Hyun gets what he deserves! Having an argument over stupid stuff isn't helpful. >.>
This thread is about informing people what happened to Hyun not getting Hyun his money-. And the thread is also for a debate over nothing for the past page or so.
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
Stop bickering you two this is about making sure Hyun gets what he deserves! Having an argument over stupid stuff isn't helpful. >.>
This thread is about informing people what happened to Hyun not getting Hyun his money because let's be honest it is complexity. And the thread is also for a debate over nothing for the past page or so.
Yeah I guess this is true. What I really want to see is accountability for teams this year. Hopefully this coming to light at the beginning of the year will lead to change. I also know this probably won't happen but I would love to see a lawsuit actually go through against Simon, he's done this a few times already and maybe if some legal action happens stuff will shape up. >.>
Quantic Gaming, LLC is a Texas limited liability corporation formed on April 8, 2011. As of today it has not been dissolved. I don't know who Hyun's contract is with and that is very relevant towards who is the proper party to sue here. Liability is based on the contractual relationship between the parties. Assuming it's actually this LLC, Hyun would need to get an attorney in Texas to advise him on how to proceed.
Kind of unfortunate you can't report liquipedia staff. Zodasoda has completely started derailing this thread. I do find it really sad that a liquipedia staff member actually starts trying to shit on someone like TotalBiscuit, especially in such a condescending tone, with really stupid facts that are not even right.
Sigh, I really think teamliquid should enforce some respect to figures like TotalBiscuit, he does more for SC2 than just about any other member in the scene... I can't really think of anyone who contributes more from the top of my head. And this attitude towards him will be tolerated by someone who nobody knows (No disrespect to Liquidpedia staff, I think they do a good job). Tb, respect to you for still posting here and offering your insight. I think it's great, you bring new perspectives from an owner in esports I don't always recognize. Thank you.
On January 02 2014 09:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Kind of unfortunate you can't report liquipedia staff. Zodasoda has completely started derailing this thread. I do find it really sad that a liquipedia staff member actually starts trying to shit on someone like TotalBiscuit, especially in such a condescending tone, with really stupid facts that are not even right.
Sigh, I really think teamliquid should enforce some respect to figures like TotalBiscuit, he does more for SC2 than just about any other member in the scene... I can't really think of anyone who contributes more from the top of my head. And this attitude towards him will be tolerated by someone who nobody knows (No disrespect to Liquidpedia staff, I think they do a good job). Tb, respect to you for still posting here and offering your insight. I think it's great, you bring new perspectives from an owner in esports I don't always recognize. Thank you.
TB isn't above any one else in the community just because he owns a team and attempts to scramble up events and such for pro-players.
I dunno, if another person with 36 posts disappeared from SCII forever, then I don't think the scene would be impacted. If TB or a Liquipedia editor left forever, then it would be damaging with the current state of SCII don't you think?
The posts in this thread shows the entire naivete and juvenile nature of the community. Oh the injustice!
Welcome to the real world kids.
Esports just isn't sustainable. Stick to your studies. Its what most gamers realize, if they have this good of a work ethic, why not translate it into a real job and a steady consistent pay? You can still play when you get home.
Being there since the Kali days and WC2, thats what all of us did.
On January 02 2014 09:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Kind of unfortunate you can't report liquipedia staff. Zodasoda has completely started derailing this thread. I do find it really sad that a liquipedia staff member actually starts trying to shit on someone like TotalBiscuit, especially in such a condescending tone, with really stupid facts that are not even right.
Sigh, I really think teamliquid should enforce some respect to figures like TotalBiscuit, he does more for SC2 than just about any other member in the scene... I can't really think of anyone who contributes more from the top of my head. And this attitude towards him will be tolerated by someone who nobody knows (No disrespect to Liquidpedia staff, I think they do a good job). Tb, respect to you for still posting here and offering your insight. I think it's great, you bring new perspectives from an owner in esports I don't always recognize. Thank you.
If you have a staff complaint you should always take it to Website Feedback or just pm an admin(heyoka, waxangel, plexa etc)
I don't think Zodasoda has done anything wrong but engaged in a heat discussion with TB. If you guys know TB for a while, he's a very polarizing figure, as that is his character.
Anyway, wtf is Axiom being Korean team becoming a topic of contention when this is how Hyun's predicament? It's reallty amusing how organic yet backward discussions can be.
Hyun has been beloved since Brood War. Hopefully he is reimbursed and then some, and that asshole that screwed him is given a session with thumb screws. Thankfully everyone is immediately behind Hyun and eager to see this wrong righted.
well, I heard about the drama about axiom team from another thread lol, and after reading through the posts by both, i think it's sad that TB always reacts as he does, especially how hypocritical 90% of his insults are lol.
On January 02 2014 10:43 opterown wrote: well, I heard about the drama about axiom team from another thread lol, and after reading through the posts by both, i think it's sad that TB always reacts as he does, especially how hypocritical 90% of his insults are lol.
On January 02 2014 10:43 opterown wrote: well, I heard about the drama about axiom team from another thread lol, and after reading through the posts by both, i think it's sad that TB always reacts as he does, especially how hypocritical 90% of his insults are lol.
Okay..i see a couple of people banned for using foul language in this thread, and I also see "famous" users who have posted foul language and nothing happened to them. One rule for all, not some.
On January 02 2014 11:22 Panamon wrote: Okay..i see a couple of people banned for using foul language in this thread, and I also see "famous" users who have posted foul language and nothing happened to them. One rule for all, not some.
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 1000 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on.
You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply ban you
On January 02 2014 11:22 Panamon wrote: Okay..i see a couple of people banned for using foul language in this thread, and I also see "famous" users who have posted foul language and nothing happened to them. One rule for all, not some.
all animals are equal. but some are more equal than others.
On January 02 2014 11:22 Panamon wrote: Okay..i see a couple of people banned for using foul language in this thread, and I also see "famous" users who have posted foul language and nothing happened to them. One rule for all, not some.
all animals are equal. but some are more equal than others.
And not all that is gold glitters. Anyways, damn that's quite a bit of money for Hyun to try to get back somehow. Hopefully there aren't soon to be revealed cases of this from other sources as well.
On January 02 2014 11:22 Panamon wrote: Okay..i see a couple of people banned for using foul language in this thread, and I also see "famous" users who have posted foul language and nothing happened to them. One rule for all, not some.
Sorry doesn't work that way here. Rule 1 of ten commandments pretty much states the attitude here towards comments being accepted or rejected. So you gotta be careful what you type on this website if you aren't important in some way to TL and don't want them to ban you.
Anyway sucks HyuN got burned by his team. Sure somebody else will get him on their roster and fulfill payment obligations.
On January 01 2014 16:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: [quote]
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
Stop bickering you two this is about making sure Hyun gets what he deserves! Having an argument over stupid stuff isn't helpful. >.>
This thread is about informing people what happened to Hyun not getting Hyun his money because let's be honest it is complexity. And the thread is also for a debate over nothing for the past page or so.
Yeah I guess this is true. What I really want to see is accountability for teams this year. Hopefully this coming to light at the beginning of the year will lead to change. I also know this probably won't happen but I would love to see a lawsuit actually go through against Simon, he's done this a few times already and maybe if some legal action happens stuff will shape up. >.>
No legal action will happen. The costs of trying to get the money from Simon would equal the amount of money owed in the end most likely. That isn't for sure it could be straight forward, but I doubt it. Honestly though I do feel bad for Hyun, but I place blame on anyone who trusts someone with their money. I'd let a lot of people use my POS car, but I wouldn't let them manage my bank account. NEVER let anyone touch your money because every person can be tempted.
Im sure he'll get his money and more. More being on account of undue stress and gross incompetence of this so called ceo. If i was a lawyer id take his case easy contacting through twitter. Hint hint nudge nudge my lawyer starcraft 2 teamliquiders.
How the hell can this guy get away with this and "disappear"? Don't tons of people know him if he was running a well known team? How can he just vanish and hide... Someone has to know him in real life etc
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
Stop bickering you two this is about making sure Hyun gets what he deserves! Having an argument over stupid stuff isn't helpful. >.>
This thread is about informing people what happened to Hyun not getting Hyun his money because let's be honest it is complexity. And the thread is also for a debate over nothing for the past page or so.
Yeah I guess this is true. What I really want to see is accountability for teams this year. Hopefully this coming to light at the beginning of the year will lead to change. I also know this probably won't happen but I would love to see a lawsuit actually go through against Simon, he's done this a few times already and maybe if some legal action happens stuff will shape up. >.>
No legal action will happen. The costs of trying to get the money from Simon would equal the amount of money owed in the end most likely. That isn't for sure it could be straight forward, but I doubt it. Honestly though I do feel bad for Hyun, but I place blame on anyone who trusts someone with their money. I'd let a lot of people use my POS car, but I wouldn't let them manage my bank account. NEVER let anyone touch your money because every person can be tempted.
All of you saying this don't know that for sure. This "case" could be as easy as HyuN paying $300 in court fees, showing up to his court date with his lawyer, and showing his contract + bank records to the judge. Simon would then be summonsed, and if Simon didn't show an automatic judgment could be declared in favor of HyuN. If Simon refused to pay, seizure of assets could be ordered. For an amount this large, an arrest warrant might even be put out for Simon. Also, any lawyer who took this case would probably take at least 10% of the plaintiff's winnings anyway.
Some lawyers will take cases such as this and promise, say, 10 hours of free work to a client. After that, they would begin to charge. This lets lawyers try to end cases such as this quickly for lower income clients (lawyer takes 10% of the winnings still), however if it gets too time consuming they arent in neck-deep.
Don't underestimate the power of the legal system.
On January 02 2014 03:18 TotalBiscuit wrote: [quote]
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
Stop bickering you two this is about making sure Hyun gets what he deserves! Having an argument over stupid stuff isn't helpful. >.>
This thread is about informing people what happened to Hyun not getting Hyun his money because let's be honest it is complexity. And the thread is also for a debate over nothing for the past page or so.
Yeah I guess this is true. What I really want to see is accountability for teams this year. Hopefully this coming to light at the beginning of the year will lead to change. I also know this probably won't happen but I would love to see a lawsuit actually go through against Simon, he's done this a few times already and maybe if some legal action happens stuff will shape up. >.>
No legal action will happen. The costs of trying to get the money from Simon would equal the amount of money owed in the end most likely. That isn't for sure it could be straight forward, but I doubt it. Honestly though I do feel bad for Hyun, but I place blame on anyone who trusts someone with their money. I'd let a lot of people use my POS car, but I wouldn't let them manage my bank account. NEVER let anyone touch your money because every person can be tempted.
All of you saying this don't know that for sure. This "case" could be as easy as HyuN paying $300 in court fees, showing up to his court date with his lawyer, and showing his contract + bank records to the judge. Simon would then be summonsed, and if Simon didn't show an automatic judgment could be declared in favor of HyuN. If Simon refused to pay, seizure of assets could be ordered. For an amount this large, an arrest warrant might even be put out for Simon. Also, any lawyer who took this case would probably take at least 10% of the plaintiff's winnings anyway.
Some lawyers will take cases such as this and promise, say, 10 hours of free work to a client. After that, they would begin to charge. This lets lawyers try to end cases such as this quickly for lower income clients (lawyer takes 10% of the winnings still), however if it gets too time consuming they arent in neck-deep.
Don't underestimate the power of the legal system.
And honestly, some lawyer fan in the relevant jurisdiction could easily do it for free. It's not a tough collection case to win. But it might be nigh impossible to execute the judgment.
I m no expert in law but i got a very good sense about it (i assume :D).
1.Doesnt matter if it is esportsbusiness or not, business is business. They have a contract, so they (he) are obligated to pay the money.
2.If this guy simon has a lot of money then i would file a law suit. Because you have a very good chance of getting your money back. It is not like some broke guy that spend all the money on blackjack and hookers and now is broke.
3.I doubt that if quantic is bankrupt that you cant get anything. I think that way because if you can prove that simon knew about this beforehand and was irresponsibly using hyuns money to keep a broke company running then this is fraud. And i m pretty sure he will be liable with his very own private money. This stuff can also mean jail (at least in germany and i doubt it isnt the same way in canada). If you know or if you have to know that you will run out of money then you cant tell people everything is ok and keep going like nothing is wrong.
Basically: It is business, this guy has money, this guy commmited a crime. Means hyun has good odds of getting his money back if he files a lawsuit. I think people are making it morer complicated than it really is.
The only thing i can think of that might be tricky is the fact that dreamhack sent the money to quantic which means quantic is the owner of the money if they made it look like this. But then again it would make no sense (even if you dont have a contract about the money transfer) that a player would give his money to the company after he is only an employee.
Could somebody pls add to the op that one of our fellow TL ers already offered his help as lawyer and contact between him and hyun is trying to be made? Thx. Im on my phone so cant post the relevant info.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
Stop bickering you two this is about making sure Hyun gets what he deserves! Having an argument over stupid stuff isn't helpful. >.>
This thread is about informing people what happened to Hyun not getting Hyun his money because let's be honest it is complexity. And the thread is also for a debate over nothing for the past page or so.
Yeah I guess this is true. What I really want to see is accountability for teams this year. Hopefully this coming to light at the beginning of the year will lead to change. I also know this probably won't happen but I would love to see a lawsuit actually go through against Simon, he's done this a few times already and maybe if some legal action happens stuff will shape up. >.>
No legal action will happen. The costs of trying to get the money from Simon would equal the amount of money owed in the end most likely. That isn't for sure it could be straight forward, but I doubt it. Honestly though I do feel bad for Hyun, but I place blame on anyone who trusts someone with their money. I'd let a lot of people use my POS car, but I wouldn't let them manage my bank account. NEVER let anyone touch your money because every person can be tempted.
All of you saying this don't know that for sure. This "case" could be as easy as HyuN paying $300 in court fees, showing up to his court date with his lawyer, and showing his contract + bank records to the judge. Simon would then be summonsed, and if Simon didn't show an automatic judgment could be declared in favor of HyuN. If Simon refused to pay, seizure of assets could be ordered. For an amount this large, an arrest warrant might even be put out for Simon. Also, any lawyer who took this case would probably take at least 10% of the plaintiff's winnings anyway.
Some lawyers will take cases such as this and promise, say, 10 hours of free work to a client. After that, they would begin to charge. This lets lawyers try to end cases such as this quickly for lower income clients (lawyer takes 10% of the winnings still), however if it gets too time consuming they arent in neck-deep.
Don't underestimate the power of the legal system.
And honestly, some lawyer fan in the relevant jurisdiction could easily do it for free. It's not a tough collection case to win. But it might be nigh impossible to execute the judgment.
exactly. winning a court case would be easy collecting coould take months and require all sorts of costs like private investigators to track him down. Plus it's a no win situation. either SImon has no money in which it's useless or he has money in which he can hire a laywer and drag it out with appeales and the like which can take forever.end of story collecting money is hard as hell, particualarly when it's international stuff.
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
Who has a cancerous attitude? Didn't you stop posting on forums like 15 times because you always make yourself and your iq of 150 look bad?
So the moral of the story is, if you want to be treated with respect, don't act like a haughty little shit for no reason. Mindblowing right?
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
Who has a cancerous attitude? Didn't you stop posting on forums like 15 times because you always make yourself and your iq of 150 look bad?
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
Who has a cancerous attitude? Didn't you stop posting on forums like 15 times because you always make yourself and your iq of 150 look bad?
So the moral of the story is, if you want to be treated with respect, don't act like a haughty little shit for no reason. Mindblowing right?
Take your own advice
please, lets not start this up again....
On topic, i think is cool that the other members of Quantic gaming are going to try and help Hyun out. he's one of the nicest guys on the scene, and doesn't deserve this kind of stuff.
On January 02 2014 03:18 TotalBiscuit wrote: [quote]
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Take your cancerous attitude elsewhere. Your Brood War definitions are meaningless in SC2 and it's hilarious that you think you can tell a team what they are and are not considered to be.
Stop bickering you two this is about making sure Hyun gets what he deserves! Having an argument over stupid stuff isn't helpful. >.>
This thread is about informing people what happened to Hyun not getting Hyun his money because let's be honest it is complexity. And the thread is also for a debate over nothing for the past page or so.
Yeah I guess this is true. What I really want to see is accountability for teams this year. Hopefully this coming to light at the beginning of the year will lead to change. I also know this probably won't happen but I would love to see a lawsuit actually go through against Simon, he's done this a few times already and maybe if some legal action happens stuff will shape up. >.>
No legal action will happen. The costs of trying to get the money from Simon would equal the amount of money owed in the end most likely. That isn't for sure it could be straight forward, but I doubt it. Honestly though I do feel bad for Hyun, but I place blame on anyone who trusts someone with their money. I'd let a lot of people use my POS car, but I wouldn't let them manage my bank account. NEVER let anyone touch your money because every person can be tempted.
All of you saying this don't know that for sure. This "case" could be as easy as HyuN paying $300 in court fees, showing up to his court date with his lawyer, and showing his contract + bank records to the judge. Simon would then be summonsed, and if Simon didn't show an automatic judgment could be declared in favor of HyuN. If Simon refused to pay, seizure of assets could be ordered. For an amount this large, an arrest warrant might even be put out for Simon. Also, any lawyer who took this case would probably take at least 10% of the plaintiff's winnings anyway.
Some lawyers will take cases such as this and promise, say, 10 hours of free work to a client. After that, they would begin to charge. This lets lawyers try to end cases such as this quickly for lower income clients (lawyer takes 10% of the winnings still), however if it gets too time consuming they arent in neck-deep.
Don't underestimate the power of the legal system.
I'm not sure about the US/Canada but here in Australia you almost never get legal fees as cheap as $2,500 (10% in this case). At the end of the day, Hyun might end up spending $5,000+ on legal fees, the pig going bankrupt and not giving a cent back which is worse. Gotta remember Hyun is a Korean and probably doesn't know any lawyers or how things might work. Also I forsee a jurisdiction issue since DH money means it's happened in Sweden whilst the pig is probably hiding back in Canada.
On January 02 2014 16:14 Agh wrote: Not defending Quantic by any means, but Hyun is at fault for letting this go on past the first occurrence and not bringing it to light.
Hopefully any current players reading this will take note. Good faith doesn't exist in this 'business'.
Probably over half of esports teams have some late payments or financial issues. If everyone left their teams after 2 months delayed salary then quite a few teams would not exist. Is it good? Obviously not, but such is the life of a pro that can't join one of the few truly trusted organizations.
On January 02 2014 16:14 Agh wrote: Not defending Quantic by any means, but Hyun is at fault for letting this go on past the first occurrence and not bringing it to light.
Hopefully any current players reading this will take note. Good faith doesn't exist in this 'business'.
Probably over half of esports teams have some late payments or financial issues. If everyone left their teams after 2 months delayed salary then quite a few teams would not exist. Is it good? Obviously not, but such is the life of a pro that can't join one of the few truly trusted organizations.
Not really. That's the CEO job, to make a business plan; get x from sponsors, spend y on salaries, remains z for these events, perhaps play on certain events to raise more money etc etc etc. I'm not saying this is easy, but is doable.
About the money: for me, if 1 (one) month is not payed, I'm stopping work and start bitching (at the beginning), then leave immediately and don't stop until I get my last penny back. There is no excuse for not paying a contract. Exceptional things can happen - and they are listed in any contract, I suppose - second coming, flood and earthquakes, Archimonde invasions etc. Even in the case of so-called lung lump thing, CEO must designate a delegate which take cares of business while on leave. Girlfriend, dog, dog vet, mom, CTO, best friend, whatever. What happens if - god forbid - a CEO dies suddenly? Whole LLC stops working? Not so.
I think what happens here is simple: a bunch of kids or former kids, without much human experience (hey, they are playing SC all day), relying on trust to be payed and taking care of. And they are screwed from time to time. Why? I don't care; disappearing is not an acceptable thing. I bet someone will appear finally, dissolve Quantic, and compensate Hyun and anyone else affected here. Meanwhile, Hyun should do at least two things: a) accept the offer from the litigation lawyer so nice to take a look on the problem for free; b) start shopping for a new team; c) perhaps designate an agent to assist him on future endeavors.
No player should trust any organization who can't prove they've paid salaries and prizes on time in the past. The clowns who run these teams obviously talk the good talk, but it seems to stop there -_- real shame.
Here's an idea - start a kickstarter for suing this guy. I'd contribute.
On January 02 2014 16:14 Agh wrote: Not defending Quantic by any means, but Hyun is at fault for letting this go on past the first occurrence and not bringing it to light.
Hopefully any current players reading this will take note. Good faith doesn't exist in this 'business'.
Probably over half of esports teams have some late payments or financial issues. If everyone left their teams after 2 months delayed salary then quite a few teams would not exist. Is it good? Obviously not, but such is the life of a pro that can't join one of the few truly trusted organizations.
Exactly, those teams should not exist.
The few organizations that are reputable and have a stable model and foundation should remain, the rest should not. The longer they remain around the more harm they do to the scene and existing teams.
On January 02 2014 09:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Kind of unfortunate you can't report liquipedia staff. Zodasoda has completely started derailing this thread. I do find it really sad that a liquipedia staff member actually starts trying to shit on someone like TotalBiscuit, especially in such a condescending tone, with really stupid facts that are not even right.
Sigh, I really think teamliquid should enforce some respect to figures like TotalBiscuit, he does more for SC2 than just about any other member in the scene... I can't really think of anyone who contributes more from the top of my head. And this attitude towards him will be tolerated by someone who nobody knows (No disrespect to Liquidpedia staff, I think they do a good job). Tb, respect to you for still posting here and offering your insight. I think it's great, you bring new perspectives from an owner in esports I don't always recognize. Thank you.
Hell, read TB's posts again. Both of them didn't do too well. Now just get back on topic.
On January 02 2014 09:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Kind of unfortunate you can't report liquipedia staff. Zodasoda has completely started derailing this thread. I do find it really sad that a liquipedia staff member actually starts trying to shit on someone like TotalBiscuit, especially in such a condescending tone, with really stupid facts that are not even right.
Sigh, I really think teamliquid should enforce some respect to figures like TotalBiscuit, he does more for SC2 than just about any other member in the scene... I can't really think of anyone who contributes more from the top of my head. And this attitude towards him will be tolerated by someone who nobody knows (No disrespect to Liquidpedia staff, I think they do a good job). Tb, respect to you for still posting here and offering your insight. I think it's great, you bring new perspectives from an owner in esports I don't always recognize. Thank you.
Hell, read TB's posts again. Both of them didn't do too well. Now just get back on topic.
its true, a bunch of senseless bantering which is completely off topic, and they both should have been warned after the first couple posts, but TL has a policy that if you can act like a 12 year old kid as long as you have been doing it atleast that many years.
veteran members should be expected to hold themselves to a standard that they would want new members to hold themselves to. if someone with 2 posts says some crap, its like, okay he's a troll or doesnt understand what good conduct is, temp ban him, if he does it again perma. when a veteran member does it, i don't even know what to think. When it is condoned or even encouraged, i REALLY start to wonder.
Now everyone stop reading this and go watch "support hyun tournament"!
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
I don't want to deraile the thread so I'm gonna stick to one only one post on this subject.
If we go by your definition there is barely any english teams in the english PL. I think you might be the only one who consider Arsenal and Manchester United to be american teams.
It's quite obvious that the Axiom players identify themself as a korean team, and they are all korean, based in Korea, only last year playing in a korean league. So for you to dictate to them who they are based on some outdated notion of elitisme is incredibly disrespectful. Why does it make more sense to you to classify a team based on who owns it insted of who plays in it?
Not to mention your terrible attitude. You should manage to a argument without insulting and draging the discussion down to a kindergarden level.
Totalbiscuit organizes tournaments, sponsors the scene, casts, owns a team and is generally someone who deserves a lot of respects for his amazing contribution to the community. What do you do? So please, even if you don't like him, which you obviously don't, at least respects his contribution.
As a last note I really hope you stop letting this kind of thing get to you Totalbiscuit. nothing good comes from picking this fights and they are just a waste of time.
^ it was tb who started slinging around the insults, I think many people who see how tb acts on forums will agree that it's something he does a lot. zodasoda is an important liquipedia staff member whose work is also very important, if a more behind-the-scenes than what tb does.
On January 03 2014 00:34 opterown wrote: ^ it was tb who started slinging around the insults, I think many people who see how tb acts on forums will agree that it's something he does a lot. zodasoda is an important liquipedia staff member whose work is also very important, if a more behind-the-scenes than what tb does.
The back and fouth was dumb, but defining an team made entirely of Korean natives as a "foreigner team" is pretty dumb.
I struggle to believe those voting for not Korean actually paid the team much attention since its inception. Focusing on TB instead of the roster of koreans seems to be the only reasonable explanation for such an opinion.
I wonder if say i was to buy a dying Korean SC2 team and rename it in my glory. I'll call it TEAM GOIBON EXPLOSION. Would people then reclassify it as a foreign team? Cause that's basically what they've done with Axiom. I don't get it.
over 9k views on Hyun's stream. The support is heartwarming <3
Also how did i not see this until now, god what a funny dude + Show Spoiler +
The source of the money or the nationality of the owners means not a fucking thing. To use another sport as an example - Chelsea FC (English Football/Soccer) have a Russian owner who invests a lot of money into the workings of the team, but the team is still and English team, it's an English club based in England.
I am actually amazed how Quantic have seemingly gotten through this with essentially no repercussions. There was a statement, of sorts, on page 6. I loosely use the term statement as it appears to be from some guy, who appeared to be involved in a lot of the admin tasks, but doesn’t appear to have any managerial capacity. The ‘statement’ also doesn’t offer any kind of apology or condolences to Hyun. Instead it’s a “we’re just volunteers, it’s not our fault” statement.
Bull … Shit
I won’t even try to comment on the legal implications here, as amazingly it seems every third person on TL is a lawyer. However morally they are responsible for this in just about every way possible. Their gross negligence has led to the one guy who single-handily carried their SC2 division been cheated out of a considerable sum of money. The guy THEY PUT IN CHARGE has done a Robert Maxwell, and they’re just claiming ignorance? I wasn’t even aware of the Massan thing until now but if that was not writing on the wall I don’t know what was. If I was Quantic’s sponsors I’d do everything possible to distance myself and wash my hands of them. This isn't a pitchfork rally, this is about calling out a company who have fucked up considerably and don't deserve to represent us anymore.
On January 03 2014 01:06 JimSocks wrote: nobody in quantic knows this dudes address?
While I seriously doubt Quantic are ‘harbouring’ him, are they honestly claiming they know nothing? Like a previous address, social security details, phone records, address/names/numbers of close friends or family members or anyone else who may know his whereabouts? There has to be SOMETHING.
On January 03 2014 01:28 Nekovivie wrote: The source of the money or the nationality of the owners means not a fucking thing. To use another sport as an example - Chelsea FC (English Football/Soccer) have a Russian owner who invests a lot of money into the workings of the team, but the team is still and English team, it's an English club based in England.
It's an English team.
Remember back in the day when everyone called them Chelski? The joke is a little redundant now as it seems the entire fucking premier league is owned by Russia and the UAE.
Axiom is not a Korean team lol Having a roster full of koreans does not just make a foreign team a korean team. Why are we arguing about this anyway? Also as far as the Zoda vs. TB argument, both sides being overly aggressive, but TB hasn't acted mature around TL for ages now, I get he's a big figure and important to the scene, but he gets by with some pretty sh*tty posting if you look back at his posting history. It is what it is though, I get why he'd be treated differently.
I just hope HyuN's plight doesn't get lost in this sea of bickering :x
This whole situation shows the growing pains that the community was surely going to face at some point. Shady people exist in all aspects of professionalism and it should not be that big of a surprise that someone got screwed out of money. The good news is that this will forever alter how teams handle the financials of the respective players. Bad news is Quantic is going to take a lot of heat for this, even though they say it was the CEO who acted alone, unfortunate
eh, I don't think it's an unreasonable opinion to consider it a foreign team, and evidently many agree
I guess if you redefine foreign as any team owned by a non-korea, sure. I guess the nationality of the players doesn't really matter, just where the money comes from.
On January 03 2014 01:38 ffadicted wrote: Axiom is not a Korean team lol Having a roster full of koreans does not just make a foreign team a korean team. Why are we arguing about this anyway?
Axiom is not a foreign team lol Having a foreigner funding the team does not just make a Korean team a foreign team. Why are we arguing about this anyway?
I want to be clear from the start though that I do not believe that Simon intended to deceive or scam anyone. He is young, and I really have no one to blame but myself for being in this situation. The last 4 companies that I have done work for have all been ran by very young people with lots of passion, but very little business experience. Simon never lacked passion... he was over-controlling and inexperienced. I jumped on board with Quantic in August and, at the time, I had full faith in the product and sustainability. A good team of passionate eSports people were already on board and Mark Ferezz (like him or not) still had a stake in the team and his direction for the team was solid. His experience and involvement was one of the main factors in my decision to jump on board. I was hired as the 'Marketing Director' and my job, as I understood it, was to continue to build the brand, organize the team of people helping, and push for more sponsorships. I felt that this was something that I could easily do. I was wrong. It is not that I lacked the understanding or the ability to do so, it was that I had almost zero support and even less direction. Do not get me wrong.. there was plenty of help from others on the team, but Simon had his own initiatives and these were rarely shared with me or others. Simon cared very much for Quantic and building a brand, but his inexperience in delegating, something I myself have had to learn to be better at, was a brick that broke Quantic.
I have been in eSports a long time, longer than most and it pains me to continue to see these things happen. I am not a super star streamer, I am not a pro gamer and I am not young anymore. I work behind the scenes, run events and help where I can, but without the proper tools to be successful, it is very difficult to not be jaded in this industry. These issues pop up a lot more than many of you realize. People with lots of passion make moves in this industry to help it grow but many of them either are in it for themselves more or are too inexperienced to see it through to the end. I have been blessed, that I have been one of the few in the industry to have been paid a salary for my experience and skill set. I am thankful for that, but have become increasingly jaded by the actions of many in this industry. We have huge faults that continue to plague us and when they rear their ugly heads, many of us chant for change (for a short time) and then we move on because something shiny pops up and we all say... "Yay for ESports". This has to change. We must see the industry for what it is... a discombobulated hot mess.
Anyway, I do not want to go into a diatribe. My experience with Quantic, overall, sucked. It has effected my marriage, my financial abilities, and my name. As an industry we must move forward (not 'on') and realize that issues like this will not change until we change the structure.. or as I have said for years.. create real 'structure'.
I would like to be paid in full and will continue to reach out to Simon to make this happen. I would also like to see all of the players and others that are owed money be paid. Again, I do not believe Simon intended to scam anyone. Personally, I believe that he just gave up and ran out of funds. At this point, he may feel there is no reason to pay his outstanding debts. He has walked away from eSports. I do hope though, that when he comes forward (if he does) that he will pay his debts and that the 'hate' will stop. I would like to find solutions (my mantra) rather than continue hating on the situation. I realize that my own unselfishness has lead to many of my own losses, but I believe that as long as we continue to push forward, regardless of the losses, we will stabilize the industry and create a truly sustainable model.
I am not sure if this clears up anything of if anyone will actually read it.
I would like to thank John Clark for his tireless contribution to the scene. Mr. Clark you've been around this scene a very long time and you have my admiration & respect.
Thanks for that, Mr. Clark. I always like reading your posts, they never seem to be filled with BS, and I only hope that those calling for everyone in quantic's blood will realize that it's not so easy, and that hyun is not the only victim.
On January 03 2014 02:43 ES_JohnClark wrote: Well.. I figure I should address this directly.
I want to be clear from the start though that I do not believe that Simon intended to deceive or scam anyone. He is young, and I really have no one to blame but myself for being in this situation. I would also like to see all of the players and others that are owed money be paid. Again, I do not believe Simon intended to scam anyone. Personally, I believe that he just gave up and ran out of funds. At this point, he may feel there is no reason to pay his outstanding debts. He has walked away from eSports. I do hope though, that when he comes forward (if he does) that he will pay his debts and that the 'hate' will stop. I would like to find solutions (my mantra) rather than continue hating on the situation. I realize that my own unselfishness has lead to many of my own losses, but I believe that as long as we continue to push forward, regardless of the losses, we will stabilize the industry and create a truly sustainable model.
John Clark ESport Solutions, LLC
What a cult this guy has going. Either you are still being paid or you're unfit to work for any company. If you really believe that being young is a reason to accidentally bankrupt a company and not run it properly even before the theft finally becomes public (like not booking flights you promise people you booked a week ago) then everyone should hope to be young for a while longer, and hire someone like you so they can steal from them and then immediately be forgiven of wrong doing.
If you are an adult like you say you are you know that stealing tens of thousands of dollars from people who may have needed it gravely is nothing you can morally or legally just walk away from because you don't feel like you owe anyone the things you stole from them.
Luckily the community will not be as forgiving of theft as you and I would wager a guess that this guy has to work under the table cleaning bathrooms at a restaurant in some small town village off the radar once his current cash grab runs out.
This is ofcourse painful to watch.... BUT What i think is goign to happen 2014 is going to start breathing lifeinto the scene again. People just need to be more cautious when doing business.... and personally If a Person wins a Tournament its his winnings so the money should go straight to him and then whatever contract should be fulfilled otherwise we are going to see this time and time again
While he is trying to rationalize the situation a little bit so ppl don't get completely Doom and Gloom I think he is in the same boat as Hyun.... another victim so attacking a victim of a crime makes them a victim of your attack and a victim of the previous crime so its another crime makes you look pretty bad hahaa but we get your point and your right we shouldn't rationalize the situation this is a very greedy and gross immoral crime and I'm sure anyone reading this that met face to face with him would probably Sock him in the face and wish he jumped off of the empire state building and caught his eyelid on a nail we should be a little empathetic to those that are the victims
I've been gone for a couple of months or so, and I return to see this sh1t?
What the hell? Another team screwing over their players? I thought Quantic was supposed to be one of the decent ones.
Are people still hating on EG here? Cos last I checked paying all your players in full and on time is something they have always done, and so many teams fail to meet this minimum requirement. Makes all that hate for them look increasingly foolish considering all the scam artists and fraudsters ripping off players in other teams.
What other scandals have happened in the last 3 months or so? I hope this is the only one.
On January 03 2014 06:06 revel8 wrote: I've been gone for a couple of months or so, and I return to see this sh1t?
What the hell? Another team screwing over their players? I thought Quantic was supposed to be one of the decent ones.
Are people still hating on EG here? Cos last I checked paying all your players in full and on time is something they have always done, and so many teams fail to meet this minimum requirement. Makes all that hate for them look increasingly foolish considering all the scam artists and fraudsters ripping off players in other teams.
What other scandals have happened in the last 3 months or so? I hope this is the only one.
You should find most of everything here and reading in depth'll likely give you a better picture than what we can tell you in a few sentences and I suppose the definition of "scandal" is kind of subjective as well.
On January 03 2014 06:06 revel8 wrote: I've been gone for a couple of months or so, and I return to see this sh1t?
What the hell? Another team screwing over their players? I thought Quantic was supposed to be one of the decent ones.
Are people still hating on EG here? Cos last I checked paying all your players in full and on time is something they have always done, and so many teams fail to meet this minimum requirement. Makes all that hate for them look increasingly foolish considering all the scam artists and fraudsters ripping off players in other teams.
What other scandals have happened in the last 3 months or so? I hope this is the only one.
You should find most of everything here and reading in depth'll likely give you a better picture than what we can tell you in a few sentences and I suppose the definition of "scandal" is kind of subjective as well.
Thanks.
So as well as Quantic dying, Western Wolves is gone. STX Soul is dead and Fou is also kaput. Mana is leaving Mouz, Bomber leaving Startale and MC leaving Sk Gaming. DuckDeok retired. And Jaedong won something.
On January 03 2014 02:43 ES_JohnClark wrote: Well.. I figure I should address this directly.
I want to be clear from the start though that I do not believe that Simon intended to deceive or scam anyone. He is young, and I really have no one to blame but myself for being in this situation. I would also like to see all of the players and others that are owed money be paid. Again, I do not believe Simon intended to scam anyone. Personally, I believe that he just gave up and ran out of funds. At this point, he may feel there is no reason to pay his outstanding debts. He has walked away from eSports. I do hope though, that when he comes forward (if he does) that he will pay his debts and that the 'hate' will stop. I would like to find solutions (my mantra) rather than continue hating on the situation. I realize that my own unselfishness has lead to many of my own losses, but I believe that as long as we continue to push forward, regardless of the losses, we will stabilize the industry and create a truly sustainable model.
John Clark ESport Solutions, LLC
What a cult this guy has going. Either you are still being paid or you're unfit to work for any company. If you really believe that being young is a reason to accidentally bankrupt a company and not run it properly even before the theft finally becomes public (like not booking flights you promise people you booked a week ago) then everyone should hope to be young for a while longer, and hire someone like you so they can steal from them and then immediately be forgiven of wrong doing.
If you are an adult like you say you are you know that stealing tens of thousands of dollars from people who may have needed it gravely is nothing you can morally or legally just walk away from because you don't feel like you owe anyone the things you stole from them.
Luckily the community will not be as forgiving of theft as you and I would wager a guess that this guy has to work under the table cleaning bathrooms at a restaurant in some small town village off the radar once his current cash grab runs out.
While I wouldn't be this blunt, I kind of feel this way too. A lot of guys say this is unfortunately part of eSports and they won't put up with it anymore, then they jump on the next fly-by-night operation and get burned again*. How can you move forward, not on (as John Clark puts it), if people don't try something different?
Of course I have sympathy since players need support to compete and other people gotta work, so it's definitely a tricky situation. But every time something happens the response is always, "We can't let this keep happening" without any real change in anyone's behavior.
* While the original Quantic guys may have transitioned operations to Simon, it's not like anyone would have reasonably expected them to stick around, which means Quantic was inevitably going to be run by some kid who inherited way too much money from Dad.
On January 03 2014 06:06 revel8 wrote: I've been gone for a couple of months or so, and I return to see this sh1t?
What the hell? Another team screwing over their players? I thought Quantic was supposed to be one of the decent ones.
Are people still hating on EG here? Cos last I checked paying all your players in full and on time is something they have always done, and so many teams fail to meet this minimum requirement. Makes all that hate for them look increasingly foolish considering all the scam artists and fraudsters ripping off players in other teams.
What other scandals have happened in the last 3 months or so? I hope this is the only one.
You should find most of everything here and reading in depth'll likely give you a better picture than what we can tell you in a few sentences and I suppose the definition of "scandal" is kind of subjective as well.
Thanks.
So as well as Quantic dying, Western Wolves is gone. STX Soul is dead and Fou is also kaput. Mana is leaving Mouz, Bomber leaving Startale and MC leaving Sk Gaming. DuckDeok retired. And Jaedong won something.
HyuN needs a good lawyer. He can arguably pierce the corporate veil and go after the principles in quantic gaming individually. He deserves tp get [aod/
On January 03 2014 07:10 Nero1138 wrote: HyuN needs a good lawyer. He can arguably pierce the corporate veil and go after the principles in quantic gaming individually. He deserves tp get [aod/
It's hard to see how the veil wouldn't be pierced in this scenario. Law suit may be prohibitively expensive, however.
the problem with lawyering up and suing is a combination of
1) lawsuits are expensive 2) suing someone for money they may not have isn't a great move
hyun got boned real bad, and it sucks ;_; but trying to navigate a foreign country's legal system may not be the best move? I'm not sure since i don't know how the law works in canada
On January 03 2014 07:30 Blazinghand wrote: the problem with lawyering up and suing is a combination of
1) lawsuits are expensive 2) suing someone for money they may not have isn't a great move
hyun got boned real bad, and it sucks ;_; but trying to navigate a foreign country's legal system may not be the best move? I'm not sure since i don't know how the law works in canada
He and Golden have been put in touch with a lawyer specialising in international dealings who's willing to (at least initially) take a look free of charge.
On January 03 2014 07:30 Blazinghand wrote: the problem with lawyering up and suing is a combination of
1) lawsuits are expensive 2) suing someone for money they may not have isn't a great move
hyun got boned real bad, and it sucks ;_; but trying to navigate a foreign country's legal system may not be the best move? I'm not sure since i don't know how the law works in canada
He and Golden have been put in touch with a lawyer specialising in international dealings who's willing to (at least initially) take a look free of charge.
I hope they have someone who understands English to help them, since, as many of us know, their English is okay enough for informal conversations, but not good enough to handle something like law.
How do you end up being owed 23 grand in the first place?
Did that amount accrue over time or was it only from a couple of big wins? If it's the former why the hell didn't hyun see the obvious and bail out long before it hit 20 grand? Especially with what happened previously. Once bitten twice shy?
Everyone bitching as this simon (rightly so too, at least purely on what hyun has written and without hearing the other side).
But really, hands up anyone who who should be getting paid from work and doesn't, yet still goes into work? Anyone?
On January 03 2014 13:46 fruity. wrote: How do you end up being owed 23 grand in the first place?
Did that amount accrue over time or was it only from a couple of big wins? If it's the former why the hell didn't hyun see the obvious and bail out long before it hit 20 grand? Especially with what happened previously. Once bitten twice shy?
Everyone bitching as this simon (rightly so too, at least purely on what hyun has written and without hearing the other side).
But really, hands up anyone who who should be getting paid from work and doesn't, yet still goes into work? Anyone?
That is one of the problems with the whole thing for sure. Although Hyun is the wronged party, he should have checked out when the outstanding balance was around 5K. It sucks, but I don't go to work when my boss misses payroll.
On January 03 2014 13:46 fruity. wrote: How do you end up being owed 23 grand in the first place?
Did that amount accrue over time or was it only from a couple of big wins? If it's the former why the hell didn't hyun see the obvious and bail out long before it hit 20 grand? Especially with what happened previously. Once bitten twice shy?
Everyone bitching as this simon (rightly so too, at least purely on what hyun has written and without hearing the other side).
But really, hands up anyone who who should be getting paid from work and doesn't, yet still goes into work? Anyone?
That is one of the problems with the whole thing for sure. Although Hyun is the wronged party, he should have checked out when the outstanding balance was around 5K. It sucks, but I don't go to work when my boss misses payroll.
Yea i probably wouldve checked out after 500 dollars lol. When someone can't transfer you 500 dollars in this day and age then something is wrong. Even paypal would be an easy way to transfer 500 dollars but to let it get to 23k and trust someone you don't REALLY know just seems foolish on Hyun's part. However, he was still screwed and deserves his money that is owed.
On January 02 2014 16:14 Agh wrote: Not defending Quantic by any means, but Hyun is at fault for letting this go on past the first occurrence and not bringing it to light.
Hopefully any current players reading this will take note. Good faith doesn't exist in this 'business'.
Probably over half of esports teams have some late payments or financial issues. If everyone left their teams after 2 months delayed salary then quite a few teams would not exist. Is it good? Obviously not, but such is the life of a pro that can't join one of the few truly trusted organizations.
Exactly, those teams should not exist.
The few organizations that are reputable and have a stable model and foundation should remain, the rest should not. The longer they remain around the more harm they do to the scene and existing teams.
I mean obviously that's ideal, but people complain about pros retiring left and right too. If people weren't taking chances on shaky organizations there would be even less players staying in the game than there are now.
On January 03 2014 13:46 fruity. wrote: How do you end up being owed 23 grand in the first place?
Did that amount accrue over time or was it only from a couple of big wins? If it's the former why the hell didn't hyun see the obvious and bail out long before it hit 20 grand? Especially with what happened previously. Once bitten twice shy?
Everyone bitching as this simon (rightly so too, at least purely on what hyun has written and without hearing the other side).
But really, hands up anyone who who should be getting paid from work and doesn't, yet still goes into work? Anyone?
That is one of the problems with the whole thing for sure. Although Hyun is the wronged party, he should have checked out when the outstanding balance was around 5K. It sucks, but I don't go to work when my boss misses payroll.
It is esports and not a regular job. A different environment if you will and it is not easy to go elsewhere with the same conditions. So you hold on to a nice contract where you get promiseda nice salary.
I mean what is the other option? Check out and then have no team for a while and if you find one will they pay you enough? I think the tipping point here is the pricemoney, his pricemoney. Not just the salary. I think if it would just be the salary he would have taken even more time.
On January 03 2014 13:46 fruity. wrote: How do you end up being owed 23 grand in the first place?
Did that amount accrue over time or was it only from a couple of big wins? If it's the former why the hell didn't hyun see the obvious and bail out long before it hit 20 grand? Especially with what happened previously. Once bitten twice shy?
Everyone bitching as this simon (rightly so too, at least purely on what hyun has written and without hearing the other side).
But really, hands up anyone who who should be getting paid from work and doesn't, yet still goes into work? Anyone?
That is one of the problems with the whole thing for sure. Although Hyun is the wronged party, he should have checked out when the outstanding balance was around 5K. It sucks, but I don't go to work when my boss misses payroll.
It is esports and not a regular job. A different environment if you will and it is not easy to go elsewhere with the same conditions. So you hold on to a nice contract where you get promiseda nice salary.
I mean what is the other option? Check out and then have no team for a while and if you find one will they pay you enough? I think the tipping point here is the pricemoney, his pricemoney. Not just the salary. I think if it would just be the salary he would have taken even more time.
A player of hyun's calibre I feel would find another team quickly. Also for example, I personally would rather get say 50 quid a week than be promised 200 quid, yet receive nothing.
Hyun has been wronged (again, only going on what he's said, and without hearing the other sides version) But although he shouldn't have to take blame for what's happened at least he should see that at best he's been naive. Now having said that another factor to come into things is no doubt the language barrier involved.
Four things I hope come out of this debacle, firstly that hyun gets what's owed to him. Secondly that if Simon has indeed screwed him over, he ends up in a jail and drops the soap whilst in the shower. Thirdly that all those involved in eSports learn from this. And lastly (like a few others have said previously in this thread) That some sort of player union is implemented to help resolve this sort of shit.
Step up the Artosis', Day9's, TotalBiscuits, Apollo's etc etc, maybe if you put your heads together something positive can come from this.
On January 03 2014 13:46 fruity. wrote: How do you end up being owed 23 grand in the first place?
Did that amount accrue over time or was it only from a couple of big wins? If it's the former why the hell didn't hyun see the obvious and bail out long before it hit 20 grand? Especially with what happened previously. Once bitten twice shy?
Everyone bitching as this simon (rightly so too, at least purely on what hyun has written and without hearing the other side).
But really, hands up anyone who who should be getting paid from work and doesn't, yet still goes into work? Anyone?
That is one of the problems with the whole thing for sure. Although Hyun is the wronged party, he should have checked out when the outstanding balance was around 5K. It sucks, but I don't go to work when my boss misses payroll.
It is esports and not a regular job. A different environment if you will and it is not easy to go elsewhere with the same conditions. So you hold on to a nice contract where you get promiseda nice salary.
I mean what is the other option? Check out and then have no team for a while and if you find one will they pay you enough? I think the tipping point here is the pricemoney, his pricemoney. Not just the salary. I think if it would just be the salary he would have taken even more time.
A player of hyun's calibre I feel would find another team quickly. Also for example, I personally would rather get say 50 quid a week than be promised 200 quid, yet receive nothing.
Hyun has been wronged (again, only going on what he's said, and without hearing the other sides version) But although he shouldn't have to take blame for what's happened at least he should see that at best he's been naive. Now having said that another factor to come into things is no doubt the language barrier involved.
Four things I hope come out of this debacle, firstly that hyun gets what's owed to him. Secondly that if Simon has indeed screwed him over, he ends up in a jail and drops the soap whilst in the shower. Thirdly that all those involved in eSports learn from this. And lastly (like a few others have said previously in this thread) That some sort of player union is implemented to help resolve this sort of shit.
Step up the Artosis', Day9's, TotalBiscuits, Apollo's etc etc, maybe if you put your heads together something positive can come from this.
The problem is that it will be very hard to pursue Simon since he is in another country and lawyers are expensive, unless its a TL fan taking the case pro bono. Even if Simon gets convicted, Hyun probably wont even see his money because you cant really force someone to pay if they dont have the money. There is a very low chance Hyun will see/ get any of his money back and most of the people Simon owe probably wont get anything either. If by chance they are lucky and get paid, it probably wont be in full. While this is a sad situation, people in esport should learn from this. If the deal they promised is very good, make sure it's not a lie.
The deal isn't really a too good to be true one, it was said that some EG players were getting up to $100k and considering some their performances they were on par with Hyun if not behind his early year performance.
I think the wage might be a average foreign teams on perhaps less if accommodation is accounted for. The next step is just to make sure all your contracts are watertight and that you're not signing on to a team with a young and inexperienced manager.
So how much he made yesterday? We're asking since the stream, on reddit and on twitter. It's pretty odd starting a fundraising and don't tell how much you made.
EDIT: I meant to quote phodacbiet - two posts above. Ended up quoting myself - edited this post to reflect that.
Sadly I feel you are right - and as others have said the international aspect just complicates things further.
Over here in the UK when someone pays for their car insurance, their insurer (by law) Pays a percentage of the premium into a fund which is then used to compensate people who are involved in hit-and-runs or the victims of those who weren't insured.
Might be a pipe dream to have such a system in esports, but if the players and those involved aren't willing to take steps to at least try and make sure this sort of stuff doesn't happen, then who will?
A player union might not be achievable - first thought to come to mind would be who would pay for it? And the legal aspect to somehow try to tie in rules and regulations across borders sounds like a nightmare to me. But something I do feel could happen would be a CODE OF CONDUCT that reputable teams and organisations could clearly state that they adhere too, and proudly display on their sites. If blizzard, kespa, dreamhack, iem, mlg put their weight behind it, then it would mean something...
Potential sponsor; Oh your not a member of the esports code of conduct - we wont sponsor your team.
Sure it's not great - and no doubt wouldn't stop these sad tales, but it may help.
Such a code could give examples of, or even specify the clauses that must at least be in the players contracts - perhaps for owners of the teams to be eligible they must have a registered business address, registered for local tax or vat, and so on.
Something along the lines of the GNU public license for free software, but for players, so they know if they join XYZ, the contract they sign isn't designed to screw them over, or have a million get out clauses, give maximum time frames for wages or winnings, and so on.
On January 03 2014 13:46 fruity. wrote: How do you end up being owed 23 grand in the first place?
Did that amount accrue over time or was it only from a couple of big wins? If it's the former why the hell didn't hyun see the obvious and bail out long before it hit 20 grand? Especially with what happened previously. Once bitten twice shy?
Everyone bitching as this simon (rightly so too, at least purely on what hyun has written and without hearing the other side).
But really, hands up anyone who who should be getting paid from work and doesn't, yet still goes into work? Anyone?
That is one of the problems with the whole thing for sure. Although Hyun is the wronged party, he should have checked out when the outstanding balance was around 5K. It sucks, but I don't go to work when my boss misses payroll.
It is esports and not a regular job. A different environment if you will and it is not easy to go elsewhere with the same conditions. So you hold on to a nice contract where you get promiseda nice salary.
I mean what is the other option? Check out and then have no team for a while and if you find one will they pay you enough? I think the tipping point here is the pricemoney, his pricemoney. Not just the salary. I think if it would just be the salary he would have taken even more time.
salary is salary regardless of what kind of job
the problem with the Korean pros is that most of them gave up school and their environment/family (where you learn things for life) to become full time pros. I am sure Hyun didn't see it as such a big deal at first.
Mentality and experience wise they are CHILDREN, thats why people like Simon can abuse them
On January 03 2014 19:36 Doublehelix_ wrote: So how much he made yesterday? We're asking since the stream, on reddit and on twitter. It's pretty odd starting a fundraising and don't tell how much you made.
On January 03 2014 19:36 Doublehelix_ wrote: So how much he made yesterday? We're asking since the stream, on reddit and on twitter. It's pretty odd starting a fundraising and don't tell how much you made.
On January 03 2014 19:36 Doublehelix_ wrote: So how much he made yesterday? We're asking since the stream, on reddit and on twitter. It's pretty odd starting a fundraising and don't tell how much you made.
that's pretty cool glad to see him make some of his money back that he lost, good on the community for putting in the effort to support Hyun after what happened to him.
On January 03 2014 02:43 ES_JohnClark wrote: Well.. I figure I should address this directly.
I want to be clear from the start though that I do not believe that Simon intended to deceive or scam anyone. He is young, and I really have no one to blame but myself for being in this situation. I would also like to see all of the players and others that are owed money be paid. Again, I do not believe Simon intended to scam anyone. Personally, I believe that he just gave up and ran out of funds. At this point, he may feel there is no reason to pay his outstanding debts. He has walked away from eSports. I do hope though, that when he comes forward (if he does) that he will pay his debts and that the 'hate' will stop. I would like to find solutions (my mantra) rather than continue hating on the situation. I realize that my own unselfishness has lead to many of my own losses, but I believe that as long as we continue to push forward, regardless of the losses, we will stabilize the industry and create a truly sustainable model.
John Clark ESport Solutions, LLC
What a cult this guy has going. Either you are still being paid or you're unfit to work for any company. If you really believe that being young is a reason to accidentally bankrupt a company and not run it properly even before the theft finally becomes public (like not booking flights you promise people you booked a week ago) then everyone should hope to be young for a while longer, and hire someone like you so they can steal from them and then immediately be forgiven of wrong doing.
If you are an adult like you say you are you know that stealing tens of thousands of dollars from people who may have needed it gravely is nothing you can morally or legally just walk away from because you don't feel like you owe anyone the things you stole from them.
Luckily the community will not be as forgiving of theft as you and I would wager a guess that this guy has to work under the table cleaning bathrooms at a restaurant in some small town village off the radar once his current cash grab runs out.
I am a bit more forgiving then most.. yes, but at no point do I suggest that we just let this slide. My suggestion is that we not just hate on the person, but rather that we look for ways to keep these things from happening. I am not being paid.. nor have I for several months now. I am blessed to have a wife that still works. Age does matter here to a point. I believe that Simon made some mistakes that snowballed into the mess we see today. I do not believe he intended to scam anyone. This really is a matter of his inexperience in managing things that has lead to this mess. It is very sad what has happened to all of the players and those who were supposed to be paid and it certainly should be fixed. In fact, I am working to speak with Hyun and, together, go about the proper process to retrieve the funds that are owed. I am simply suggesting that we keep our eye on the ball and not let the displeasure of the person distract us from coming up with real solutions to prevent this from happening again.
Collective outrage, within a certain limit of course, is one of the only deterrents at the community's disposal when it comes to discouraging this sort of behavior.
Is this standard operating procedure for teams to disperse tournament winnings through the CEO to players? Does Team Liquid follow this same procedure? Seems to me that Hyun being 25 years old qualifies him to receive his own checks from Tournament organizers. If the team gets a cut out of Tournament winnings, couldn't the organizer of the event cut different checks?
It sounds like Simon had all of that money and thought he could expand the Quantic brand maybe, and failed at his investment hard and just took off, complete speculation, but that sort of thing happens a lot with investment bankers who lose peoples money.
On January 04 2014 00:58 Ctone23 wrote: Is this standard operating procedure for teams to disperse tournament winnings through the CEO to players? Does Team Liquid follow this same procedure? Seems to me that Hyun being 25 years old qualifies him to receive his own checks from Tournament organizers. If the team gets a cut out of Tournament winnings, couldn't the organizer of the event cut different checks?
It sounds like Simon had all of that money and thought he could expand the Quantic brand maybe, and failed at his investment hard and just took off, complete speculation, but that sort of thing happens a lot with investment bankers who lose peoples money.
According to other posts in this thread, it does seem normal for teams to get the winnings, which they then pass on. I don't know if this is standard in TL.
On January 04 2014 00:58 Ctone23 wrote: Is this standard operating procedure for teams to disperse tournament winnings through the CEO to players? Does Team Liquid follow this same procedure? Seems to me that Hyun being 25 years old qualifies him to receive his own checks from Tournament organizers. If the team gets a cut out of Tournament winnings, couldn't the organizer of the event cut different checks?
It sounds like Simon had all of that money and thought he could expand the Quantic brand maybe, and failed at his investment hard and just took off, complete speculation, but that sort of thing happens a lot with investment bankers who lose peoples money.
According to other posts in this thread, it does seem normal for teams to get the winnings, which they then pass on. I don't know if this is standard in TL.
Makes sense, I was just wondering. I saw that this Simon guy is 23 years old, which explains a lot in itself.
On January 03 2014 13:46 fruity. wrote: How do you end up being owed 23 grand in the first place?
Did that amount accrue over time or was it only from a couple of big wins? If it's the former why the hell didn't hyun see the obvious and bail out long before it hit 20 grand? Especially with what happened previously. Once bitten twice shy?
Everyone bitching as this simon (rightly so too, at least purely on what hyun has written and without hearing the other side).
But really, hands up anyone who who should be getting paid from work and doesn't, yet still goes into work? Anyone?
That is one of the problems with the whole thing for sure. Although Hyun is the wronged party, he should have checked out when the outstanding balance was around 5K. It sucks, but I don't go to work when my boss misses payroll.
It is esports and not a regular job. A different environment if you will and it is not easy to go elsewhere with the same conditions. So you hold on to a nice contract where you get promiseda nice salary.
I mean what is the other option? Check out and then have no team for a while and if you find one will they pay you enough? I think the tipping point here is the pricemoney, his pricemoney. Not just the salary. I think if it would just be the salary he would have taken even more time.
A player of hyun's calibre I feel would find another team quickly. Also for example, I personally would rather get say 50 quid a week than be promised 200 quid, yet receive nothing.
1. He did recive some salary (like 5months out of 12). 2.So you would rather have 1/4 of your original salary but this is save? Sry but that doesnt make sense to me. And he did recive money.
On January 03 2014 13:46 fruity. wrote: How do you end up being owed 23 grand in the first place?
Did that amount accrue over time or was it only from a couple of big wins? If it's the former why the hell didn't hyun see the obvious and bail out long before it hit 20 grand? Especially with what happened previously. Once bitten twice shy?
Everyone bitching as this simon (rightly so too, at least purely on what hyun has written and without hearing the other side).
But really, hands up anyone who who should be getting paid from work and doesn't, yet still goes into work? Anyone?
That is one of the problems with the whole thing for sure. Although Hyun is the wronged party, he should have checked out when the outstanding balance was around 5K. It sucks, but I don't go to work when my boss misses payroll.
It is esports and not a regular job. A different environment if you will and it is not easy to go elsewhere with the same conditions. So you hold on to a nice contract where you get promiseda nice salary.
I mean what is the other option? Check out and then have no team for a while and if you find one will they pay you enough? I think the tipping point here is the pricemoney, his pricemoney. Not just the salary. I think if it would just be the salary he would have taken even more time.
A player of hyun's calibre I feel would find another team quickly. Also for example, I personally would rather get say 50 quid a week than be promised 200 quid, yet receive nothing.
Hyun has been wronged (again, only going on what he's said, and without hearing the other sides version) But although he shouldn't have to take blame for what's happened at least he should see that at best he's been naive. Now having said that another factor to come into things is no doubt the language barrier involved.
Four things I hope come out of this debacle, firstly that hyun gets what's owed to him. Secondly that if Simon has indeed screwed him over, he ends up in a jail and drops the soap whilst in the shower. Thirdly that all those involved in eSports learn from this. And lastly (like a few others have said previously in this thread) That some sort of player union is implemented to help resolve this sort of shit.
Step up the Artosis', Day9's, TotalBiscuits, Apollo's etc etc, maybe if you put your heads together something positive can come from this.
The problem is that it will be very hard to pursue Simon since he is in another country and lawyers are expensive, unless its a TL fan taking the case pro bono. Even if Simon gets convicted, Hyun probably wont even see his money because you cant really force someone to pay if they dont have the money. There is a very low chance Hyun will see/ get any of his money back and most of the people Simon owe probably wont get anything either. If by chance they are lucky and get paid, it probably wont be in full. While this is a sad situation, people in esport should learn from this. If the deal they promised is very good, make sure it's not a lie.
People say that Simon has inherited a lot of money, so i guess you could get money out of him. Otherwise i would agree with you.
On January 03 2014 13:46 fruity. wrote: How do you end up being owed 23 grand in the first place?
Did that amount accrue over time or was it only from a couple of big wins? If it's the former why the hell didn't hyun see the obvious and bail out long before it hit 20 grand? Especially with what happened previously. Once bitten twice shy?
Everyone bitching as this simon (rightly so too, at least purely on what hyun has written and without hearing the other side).
But really, hands up anyone who who should be getting paid from work and doesn't, yet still goes into work? Anyone?
That is one of the problems with the whole thing for sure. Although Hyun is the wronged party, he should have checked out when the outstanding balance was around 5K. It sucks, but I don't go to work when my boss misses payroll.
It is esports and not a regular job. A different environment if you will and it is not easy to go elsewhere with the same conditions. So you hold on to a nice contract where you get promiseda nice salary.
I mean what is the other option? Check out and then have no team for a while and if you find one will they pay you enough? I think the tipping point here is the pricemoney, his pricemoney. Not just the salary. I think if it would just be the salary he would have taken even more time.
salary is salary regardless of what kind of job
the problem with the Korean pros is that most of them gave up school and their environment/family (where you learn things for life) to become full time pros. I am sure Hyun didn't see it as such a big deal at first.
Mentality and experience wise they are CHILDREN, thats why people like Simon can abuse them
Doesnt make sense sry, esports in GENERAL is shady business, nothing you can learn in school about that. Just because you finished school doesnt make esports a professional enovironment like regular business. It doesnt change the scene. You can only hope to get not fucked over, if you do esports professionally then you have to take risks. No matter what education you got, if you dont want to take risks dont be a progamer.
Only that he is old enough to be trusted with thousands of dollars (and he was, up till he disappeared.) Most 23 year olds in finance are trusted with manipulating large sums of money, they certainly don't go around running frauds or embezzling either. At least not anymore than their older peers.
People have got to stop using age as an excuse for his actions.
On January 04 2014 01:37 Dangermousecatdog wrote: What is explained by that he is 23 years old?
Only that he is old enough to be trusted with thousands of dollars (and he was, up till he disappeared.) Most 23 year olds in finance are trusted with manipulating large sums of money, they certainly don't go around running frauds or embezzling either. At least not anymore than their older peers.
People have got to stop using age as an excuse for his actions.
I didn't mean to make an excuse for what happened. Sure, some 23 year olds have a lot of responsibility, but the vast majority are still maturing, getting jobs, graduate school, etc.
That amount of money hanging over a 23 year old makes the situation a bit more understandable for me, but yea it's not a good excuse, just trying to make sense of it all.
On January 03 2014 19:36 Doublehelix_ wrote: So how much he made yesterday? We're asking since the stream, on reddit and on twitter. It's pretty odd starting a fundraising and don't tell how much you made.
Pleased to see that Hyun was able to have a pretty decent pay day yesterday given his circumstances. It's a bummer that people as positive as him get dealt shitty cards. Best of luck getting a new team. He'd be great for Liquid, but doubt they're trying to get more zergs.
On January 04 2014 00:58 Ctone23 wrote: Is this standard operating procedure for teams to disperse tournament winnings through the CEO to players? Does Team Liquid follow this same procedure? Seems to me that Hyun being 25 years old qualifies him to receive his own checks from Tournament organizers. If the team gets a cut out of Tournament winnings, couldn't the organizer of the event cut different checks?
It sounds like Simon had all of that money and thought he could expand the Quantic brand maybe, and failed at his investment hard and just took off, complete speculation, but that sort of thing happens a lot with investment bankers who lose peoples money.
According to the DailyDot article (I really wish more people in the thread would read it, since it explains a lot): Dreamhack's policy is to pay teams not players.
When a team is small / run as tightly as Quantic, then that pretty much means going through the CEO.
From what I understand that's also how Kespa teams run, they take the winnings, you get a salary and maybe a bonus (I think?) for winning. So that could be why Hyun didn't speak up earlier, also every few months in Community News there's a story about Tournament XYZ not paying prizes out after 6 months, ect.
On January 04 2014 20:58 DiamondTear wrote: DH's system does sound ridiculous considering the reliability of eSports teams.
The players can choose to take the money directly, I think, but they'd be subject to (more) taxes if they did.
No, if the teams takes a cut of the winnings the player loses more money then if he kept all of it and taxed for the lot himself.
Because the players still have to pay taxes on their earnings, so does the teams when they take a cut from it (meaning they have to take a larger cut to compensate).
Which means it'll even get taxed twice, or even three times. First a tax on the original sum, then another tax on the teams cut and then finally a tax on the players share...
Though i'm not all that confident when it comes to taxes so keep a big pile of salt handy when reading this...
Holy shit, its hard to read as I have been a part of quantic myself (dota2 manager) Simon made himself always look trustworthy, except dealing with things late. I never thought he is able to do something like that. I hope he gets sued and end up in prison.
This is why prize money should go to the player, and pay the percentage that goes to the team, and not the other way around. You won the money not the team.
On January 04 2014 20:58 DiamondTear wrote: DH's system does sound ridiculous considering the reliability of eSports teams.
The players can choose to take the money directly, I think, but they'd be subject to (more) taxes if they did.
No, if the teams takes a cut of the winnings the player loses more money then if he kept all of it and taxed for the lot himself.
Because the players still have to pay taxes on their earnings, so does the teams when they take a cut from it (meaning they have to take a larger cut to compensate).
Which means it'll even get taxed twice, or even three times. First a tax on the original sum, then another tax on the teams cut and then finally a tax on the players share...
Though i'm not all that confident when it comes to taxes so keep a big pile of salt handy when reading this...
Found some salt
On January 01 2014 22:23 Bumblebee wrote: There are also domestic laws regarding taxes. The reason most players choose to have the team's receive the prizemoney is because they have to pay Swedish taxes off of them if they are not paid out to a registered company, where this way around they can pay taxes in their own country. DreamHack does offer to pay out to the player directly, but few choose this option.
MLG also offers to pay out to both, but as a standard they pay the players directly. If you are from outside the US, they are forced to keep 30 % of your prizemoney in America (or at least the States that are relevant for MLG) so here nothing can be done unless your team has an American company that they could pay out to and that way it would allow the player to pay taxes in his own country.
Without continuing to write about every organization, there's always been an option everywhere from the events to pay it to the team or the player(s). As Kennigit said that makes sense because some contracts will have a clause about a percentage of the prizemoney won goes to the team.
1. He did recive some salary (like 5months out of 12). 2.So you would rather have 1/4 of your original salary but this is save? Sry but that doesnt make sense to me. And he did recive money.
No, what I am saying is that when he wasn't receiving his pay on a regular basis (I don't know how much he was due to be paid, how often or how much) He should of cut his losses and moved on, and tried to pursue simon to get what he was owed.
To clarify I would rather get a lower wage from another team - potentially, and get it ON TIME, than be given the run around and empty promises from a flaky individual who it seems has a history of either fucking up, or out right screwing people over.
To let matters get to the dizzying heights of 23 grand - to find yourself being owed THAT MUCH - it's just nuts. He should of got out long, long before. However, like I mentioned before, for all I know the vast majority of that balance is from a couple of huge wins, if that is the case perhaps it is understandable how one could get owed such a large amount.
Hyun's recollection in the OP The money I should have received was 80,000 SEK from DreamHack winnings (about $12,500) and $26,400 (2,200 x 12) in salary, but I only received $2,200 x5, and after that $950 x5, leaving $10,650 I have not received. In total it's about $23,000 I have not received.
So actually it is just a single tournament, with a not-straightfoward payment structure as discussed above. And really, the dirt on Simon only started coming out recently in terms of not paying people.
Prior he's been a bit flakey and messed up somethings like with the LoL visas, but managed to avoid serious problems (the visa situation even worked itself out as his team dropped out early).
I do agree with you that getting involved with Quantic after he took over would take a leap of faith as he has no real history runnign a major team, but looking further he had run a minor team for half a year prior to the deal for the Quantic brand, so maybe I'm being too harsh on that front.
Hyun's recollection in the OP The money I should have received was 80,000 SEK from DreamHack winnings (about $12,500) and $26,400 (2,200 x 12) in salary, but I only received $2,200 x5, and after that $950 x5, leaving $10,650 I have not received. In total it's about $23,000 I have not received.
So actually it is just a single tournament, with a not-straightfoward payment structure as discussed above. And really, the dirt on Simon only started coming out recently in terms of not paying people.
Prior he's been a bit flakey and messed up somethings like with the LoL visas, but managed to avoid serious problems (the visa situation even worked itself out as his team dropped out early).
I do agree with you that getting involved with Quantic after he took over would take a leap of faith as he has no real history runnign a major team, but looking further he had run a minor team for half a year prior to the deal for the Quantic brand, so maybe I'm being too harsh on that front.
Thanks for clarifying that.
Making sweeping generalisations (like I did with simons 'flakyness' is always easier with hindsight..
I'm most happy that hyun seems to be sticking around in sc2 (and that the community donated a large chunk of money to him!). He's without doubt one of the great characters in our scene. Saw him stream a switch-race verses one of the ROOT guys the other day (he was playing as protoss and the root guy as zerg (sorry I don't recal who the root player was). Hyun was laughing away and having a great time - a fun stream!
On January 01 2014 12:21 Undead1993 wrote: ye you could feel in the last couple of tournaments that he was stressed out, poor guy. kind of sad how some foreign teams treat the clueless koreans, axiom obviously doesn't but.
Axiom is not a foreign team
Foreign owned, Foreign ran, Foreign paid...
This is the reason I come to Teamliquid, to have random forum posters inform me of what my team is and isn't.
Right, random forum poster who has been following and organizing the way teams are recognized in Starcraft longer than you've been interested in the game...
Take your attitude somewhere else on this one Biscuitboy
Why is it so important to you people call Axiom a "Korean" team anyway? its not going to happen if you keep calling it your team and you keep telling us that you pay them and that you organize their flights, and without GSTL now, Axiom not in Proleague, you're as far as you can get from being a proper "Korean" team in the meaning of the phrase coming from the BW days... at best you're a International team who happens to only sign Koreans, if TL dropped all their players except for Taeja and HerO would that make Liquid a Korean team? no...
But of course i get ahead of my self here, I'm talking to you of all people and whats in your mind is right! can't argue with that...
It's cute that the Broodwar Elitists are still around and still as snippy as ever.
I'm a Starcraft 2 Elitist if anything lol, run along manchild.
Why are posts from a guy getting mad at someone not using his definitions allowed?
Through an inheritance, Boudreault had come into a lot of money and had decided to invest it in the thing he cared about most; eSports. Even working at his successful family business, which manufactures classy office furniture, he had sought to launch a gaming desk design specifically for pro-gamers.
He had owned a minor team called 4Not, which had merged with some other teams and with Quantic, a bigger brand that was failing. It was owned by some guys, including senior Google employees, whose passion for competitive gaming had cooled. Boudreault bought up a majority share and started spending. The well-known StarCraft player HyuN was signed and the StarCraft 2 team did okay, winning here and there, mostly on the back of HyuN's skill.
But Boudreault's main interest was in League of Legends. Colleagues say that he spent long hours playing the game, and most of his professional energy went into his brand-saving scheme to get Quantic into the LCS. He announced the new team in September, telling GameSpot that it would be "a major game changer to the North American Challenger and LCS scene." It was headed up by the respected player Yoonsup "Locodoco" Choi.
Dcq1ur2
"All of the money was going into that," said Clark. "Legal fees, travel, visas, thousands of dollars. But nothing was happening. Simon was never available. He just wouldn't respond to requests for information."
The Koreans, young men in their late teens and early twenties, were housed with Bernie Catalan and his girlfriend, at their home in Southern California. One of the players went home after a few weeks, unhappy with the situation. Catalan and his partner struggled with the responsibility of looking after the team, who were in their home from September through to the tournament in December.
"They were young so they were kinda untidy and my girlfriend complained about them not cleaning up," he told Polygon. "She really likes a clean house. She wasn't really thrilled about having five guys who mostly didn't speak English in the house." Various attempts by Polygon to contact former team members for interview have been unsuccessful.
To keep the team entertained, Catalan took them on days out to Six Flags, and other diversions. "They wanted to go out to eat a lot. We went to batting cages and laser tag and go-carting."
Boudreault had promised $2,500 a month in living expenses as well as help with utility bills, according to Catalan. But his household only received $2,000 a month. He said it was not unusual to have to pick up expenses tabs, and then try, often in vain, to be compensated later.
Catalan said that the money problems affected the team. "They might have been a lot less stressed out without that problem," he said. "They would say, let's go to Trader Joes to get some food and I'd say, well, Simon hasn't sent the money yet."
Through an inheritance, Boudreault had come into a lot of money and had decided to invest it in the thing he cared about most; eSports. Even working at his successful family business, which manufactures classy office furniture, he had sought to launch a gaming desk design specifically for pro-gamers.
He had owned a minor team called 4Not, which had merged with some other teams and with Quantic, a bigger brand that was failing. It was owned by some guys, including senior Google employees, whose passion for competitive gaming had cooled. Boudreault bought up a majority share and started spending. The well-known StarCraft player HyuN was signed and the StarCraft 2 team did okay, winning here and there, mostly on the back of HyuN's skill.
But Boudreault's main interest was in League of Legends. Colleagues say that he spent long hours playing the game, and most of his professional energy went into his brand-saving scheme to get Quantic into the LCS. He announced the new team in September, telling GameSpot that it would be "a major game changer to the North American Challenger and LCS scene." It was headed up by the respected player Yoonsup "Locodoco" Choi.
Dcq1ur2
"All of the money was going into that," said Clark. "Legal fees, travel, visas, thousands of dollars. But nothing was happening. Simon was never available. He just wouldn't respond to requests for information."
The Koreans, young men in their late teens and early twenties, were housed with Bernie Catalan and his girlfriend, at their home in Southern California. One of the players went home after a few weeks, unhappy with the situation. Catalan and his partner struggled with the responsibility of looking after the team, who were in their home from September through to the tournament in December.
"They were young so they were kinda untidy and my girlfriend complained about them not cleaning up," he told Polygon. "She really likes a clean house. She wasn't really thrilled about having five guys who mostly didn't speak English in the house." Various attempts by Polygon to contact former team members for interview have been unsuccessful.
To keep the team entertained, Catalan took them on days out to Six Flags, and other diversions. "They wanted to go out to eat a lot. We went to batting cages and laser tag and go-carting."
Boudreault had promised $2,500 a month in living expenses as well as help with utility bills, according to Catalan. But his household only received $2,000 a month. He said it was not unusual to have to pick up expenses tabs, and then try, often in vain, to be compensated later.
Catalan said that the money problems affected the team. "They might have been a lot less stressed out without that problem," he said. "They would say, let's go to Trader Joes to get some food and I'd say, well, Simon hasn't sent the money yet."
Shit like this is exactly why Clarity declined joining in this merger. Then again, it doesn't exactly seem like the money for the house was used properly. Taking the team out multiple times, eating out a lot, etc. isn't really an efficient use of funds. If you skip on some of that stuff, you wouldn't really have issues buying groceries for the team.
It seemed he had some money and figure he put it into an eSports team. The thing he did not realize is that it takes a lot of hard work, more so at the beginning to make them even have a chance for success.
I am even surprised they were able to get 5 Koreans to the States and living there. I wonder if they were just on short term 3-6 month visas.
On January 24 2014 07:21 huller20 wrote: So...any update on this. I mean the guy can't not respond for life...
Why can't he not respond? close your accounts shutdown your e-mail, change phone number and never, ever go to a live gaming event again. Just like that he disappears into the shadows like the scumbag he is.
Well, I hope he spend 8 years as a gamer because he had FUN. That stolen money is bad (get a lawyer!) , but FUN is the prime reason to be a gamer, don't forget this with all the esports stuff. Also he had probably an awesome time and worthy experiences flying around the globe. That alone should be worth it.
On January 24 2014 07:21 huller20 wrote: So...any update on this. I mean the guy can't not respond for life...
Actually, its funny that you say that because, unless legal action is taken, that is probably exactly what he is going to do: not respond for life.
Oh yeah, most definitely! I can't imagine that SamBuca will try to get in touch with any Quantic members unless legal action is taken. This is so sad for eSports, Quantic and especially HyuN and anyone left in his position T_T
On January 24 2014 08:15 Caladan wrote: Well, I hope he spend 8 years as a gamer because he had FUN. That stolen money is bad (get a lawyer!) , but FUN is the prime reason to be a gamer, don't forget this with all the esports stuff. Also he had probably an awesome time and worthy experiences flying around the globe. That alone should be worth it.
Fun doesn't pay bills, what the hell? Professional musicians should also probably just put their work online for everyone to download for free, right? They play music cause it's fun, why want money for it?
On January 24 2014 08:15 Caladan wrote: Well, I hope he spend 8 years as a gamer because he had FUN. That stolen money is bad (get a lawyer!) , but FUN is the prime reason to be a gamer, don't forget this with all the esports stuff. Also he had probably an awesome time and worthy experiences flying around the globe. That alone should be worth it.
It's important to have like your job, but how can you if you don't get paid for it? I can't imagine that it is fun to sit and wait for his salaries, tickets and everything and now he's got 23k missing and there is no way telling if he is going to get it. In this situation I totally understand that he is doubting his decision to become a progamer. I seriously hope that he concludes that the good timjes were worth it tho.
On January 24 2014 08:15 Caladan wrote: Well, I hope he spend 8 years as a gamer because he had FUN. That stolen money is bad (get a lawyer!) , but FUN is the prime reason to be a gamer, don't forget this with all the esports stuff. Also he had probably an awesome time and worthy experiences flying around the globe. That alone should be worth it.
Okay... Give me 23,000$ And I'll fly you to just as many sc2 tournaments as HyuN went too for you to have fun Good deal yo!
On January 24 2014 08:32 Azelja wrote: Fun doesn't pay bills, what the hell? Professional musicians should also probably just put their work online for everyone to download for free, right? They play music cause it's fun, why want money for it?
On January 24 2014 08:15 Caladan wrote: Well, I hope he spend 8 years as a gamer because he had FUN. That stolen money is bad (get a lawyer!) , but FUN is the prime reason to be a gamer, don't forget this with all the esports stuff. Also he had probably an awesome time and worthy experiences flying around the globe. That alone should be worth it.
i'm going to guess you've still a kid and never held a paying job in your entire life based on the naivete displayed in your post
EPT
HyuN posted the following message about his situation with Quantic. (Korean original)
![[image loading]](http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9232/lc19.png)
![[image loading]](http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/831534674.jpg?1388754555)
