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On December 23 2013 02:36 emythrel wrote:
I dont' get why people always seperate our korean terran from foreign terrans, if terran is fine in korea, its fine everywhere else. If korean terrans can beat their overpowered korean Protoss foes then why can't foreign terran beat foreign protoss?. Perhaps the problem isnt with balance but with the players.
The only reason why koeans are better than foreigners is work ethic, there is nothing about being korean that makes u better at starcraft, only the methods they use to train. So basically if you are saying that terran is fine if ur Taeja but not if ur anyone else, the reality of your statement is that you just don't work heard enough. Thats the difference, you aren't as good as your opponents. If Korean terrans can make it work, consistently, and you can't.... its because they are better than you. So maybe instead of blaming balance and David Kim, try looking in a mirror and see that YOU are the problem.
I doubt Taeja gets up in the morning and thinks "I wish David Kim would make my race more powerful so I can put in less practice", no he gets up and practices so fucking hard that even if the race is underpowered, he is sooooo much better than his opponents mechanically, strategically and physically that it doesn't matter. Thats why champions do, they don't bitch and whine.... they work harder than everyone else.
Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Kobe Bryant, David Beckham. What do all those names have in common? They are all considered thet best of their era in their respective sports, ask any of them what made them the best and they will all tell you the same thing, I worked three times harder than anyone else.
While I want to agree with you, do we actually have any data on the amount of ladder games played per day for Taeja vs Kas (for example)? Because I hear everyone saying it, but I never see any data to back the claims up that koreans practice more than foreigners. For example, TLO has said multiple times on twitter that he is aiming for 35-40 ladder games per day. I doubt you can get any more games in a day since then you're already playing non-stop for 10 hours, without dinner, bathroom breaks or queueing for a match (40 games * 15 minutes / 60 minutes = 10 hours). Yet he's not as good as Innovation or Soulkey.
That said, korean terrans vs foreigner terrans is completely useless in the argument against protoss. Protoss isn't imbalanced, it just isn't fun because of the cheesiness. Which I think is why 90% of the people here are complaining (including me)
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 23 2013 03:10 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 02:36 emythrel wrote:
I dont' get why people always seperate our korean terran from foreign terrans, if terran is fine in korea, its fine everywhere else. If korean terrans can beat their overpowered korean Protoss foes then why can't foreign terran beat foreign protoss?. Perhaps the problem isnt with balance but with the players.
The only reason why koeans are better than foreigners is work ethic, there is nothing about being korean that makes u better at starcraft, only the methods they use to train. So basically if you are saying that terran is fine if ur Taeja but not if ur anyone else, the reality of your statement is that you just don't work heard enough. Thats the difference, you aren't as good as your opponents. If Korean terrans can make it work, consistently, and you can't.... its because they are better than you. So maybe instead of blaming balance and David Kim, try looking in a mirror and see that YOU are the problem.
I doubt Taeja gets up in the morning and thinks "I wish David Kim would make my race more powerful so I can put in less practice", no he gets up and practices so fucking hard that even if the race is underpowered, he is sooooo much better than his opponents mechanically, strategically and physically that it doesn't matter. Thats why champions do, they don't bitch and whine.... they work harder than everyone else.
Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Kobe Bryant, David Beckham. What do all those names have in common? They are all considered thet best of their era in their respective sports, ask any of them what made them the best and they will all tell you the same thing, I worked three times harder than anyone else. While I want to agree with you, do we actually have any data on the amount of ladder games played per day for Taeja vs Kas (for example)? Because I hear everyone saying it, but I never see any data to back the claims up that koreans practice more than foreigners. For example, TLO has said multiple times on twitter that he is aiming for 35-40 ladder games per day. I doubt you can get any more games in a day since then you're already playing non-stop for 10 hours, without dinner, bathroom breaks or queueing for a match (40 games * 15 minutes / 60 minutes = 10 hours). Yet he's not as good as Innovation or Soulkey. That said, korean terrans vs foreigner terrans is completely useless in the argument against protoss. Protoss isn't imbalanced, it just isn't fun because of the cheesiness. Which I think is why 90% of the people here are complaining (including me)
There is more to practise than just quantity. Also, playing games isn't all it takes to get better at Starcraft, despite the large amount of people thinking that more games always equals more skill.
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On December 23 2013 03:13 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 03:10 cptjibberjabber wrote:On December 23 2013 02:36 emythrel wrote:
I dont' get why people always seperate our korean terran from foreign terrans, if terran is fine in korea, its fine everywhere else. If korean terrans can beat their overpowered korean Protoss foes then why can't foreign terran beat foreign protoss?. Perhaps the problem isnt with balance but with the players.
The only reason why koeans are better than foreigners is work ethic, there is nothing about being korean that makes u better at starcraft, only the methods they use to train. So basically if you are saying that terran is fine if ur Taeja but not if ur anyone else, the reality of your statement is that you just don't work heard enough. Thats the difference, you aren't as good as your opponents. If Korean terrans can make it work, consistently, and you can't.... its because they are better than you. So maybe instead of blaming balance and David Kim, try looking in a mirror and see that YOU are the problem.
I doubt Taeja gets up in the morning and thinks "I wish David Kim would make my race more powerful so I can put in less practice", no he gets up and practices so fucking hard that even if the race is underpowered, he is sooooo much better than his opponents mechanically, strategically and physically that it doesn't matter. Thats why champions do, they don't bitch and whine.... they work harder than everyone else.
Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Kobe Bryant, David Beckham. What do all those names have in common? They are all considered thet best of their era in their respective sports, ask any of them what made them the best and they will all tell you the same thing, I worked three times harder than anyone else. While I want to agree with you, do we actually have any data on the amount of ladder games played per day for Taeja vs Kas (for example)? Because I hear everyone saying it, but I never see any data to back the claims up that koreans practice more than foreigners. For example, TLO has said multiple times on twitter that he is aiming for 35-40 ladder games per day. I doubt you can get any more games in a day since then you're already playing non-stop for 10 hours, without dinner, bathroom breaks or queueing for a match (40 games * 15 minutes / 60 minutes = 10 hours). Yet he's not as good as Innovation or Soulkey. That said, korean terrans vs foreigner terrans is completely useless in the argument against protoss. Protoss isn't imbalanced, it just isn't fun because of the cheesiness. Which I think is why 90% of the people here are complaining (including me) There is more to practise than just quantity. Also, playing games isn't all it takes to get better at Starcraft, despite the large amount of people thinking that more games always equals more skill.
lol if more games meant more skill Kas wouldve become a millionaire playing sc2.
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On December 23 2013 02:36 emythrel wrote:
I dont' get why people always seperate our korean terran from foreign terrans, if terran is fine in korea, its fine everywhere else. If korean terrans can beat their overpowered korean Protoss foes then why can't foreign terran beat foreign protoss?. Perhaps the problem isnt with balance but with the players.
The only reason why koeans are better than foreigners is work ethic, there is nothing about being korean that makes u better at starcraft, only the methods they use to train. So basically if you are saying that terran is fine if ur Taeja but not if ur anyone else, the reality of your statement is that you just don't work heard enough. Thats the difference, you aren't as good as your opponents. If Korean terrans can make it work, consistently, and you can't.... its because they are better than you. So maybe instead of blaming balance and David Kim, try looking in a mirror and see that YOU are the problem.
I doubt Taeja gets up in the morning and thinks "I wish David Kim would make my race more powerful so I can put in less practice", no he gets up and practices so fucking hard that even if the race is underpowered, he is sooooo much better than his opponents mechanically, strategically and physically that it doesn't matter. Thats why champions do, they don't bitch and whine.... they work harder than everyone else.
Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Kobe Bryant, David Beckham. What do all those names have in common? They are all considered thet best of their era in their respective sports, ask any of them what made them the best and they will all tell you the same thing, I worked three times harder than anyone else.
Ok, so SC2 has been out for 3 years now you still didn't understand that terran has to have perfect micro management and get the most out of his units to be on EQUAL GROUNDS against his protoss opponent?
Let me try to explain it to you:
Almost every terran unit has a huge micro potential. Players like TaeJa, INnoVatioN, Polt, MMA or Maru are so incredibly good they can use marines and marauders with, lets say, 95% maximum efficiency, dropping everywhere, dodging every single storm and shit like that.
On the other hand, protoss units do not have this kind of potential, no one can deny that fact. Imagine an army of colossi, stalker, chargelot and archons. Every single GM Protoss is able to use this army with the exact same efficiency. There are no differences betwen the colossi shots of iNcontrol and MaximusBlack and the ones of sOs, Rain, or Dear. They are all used on their maximum efficiency, by default, with no special micro skill involved.
Now you might be asking yourself, "Ok, I understand your point, but where is the problem?"
Well, the problem is:
The game is balanced around the very best, which means both Terran and Protoss should be using their units at maximum efficiency. What does that mean? It's simple. The game is balanced around a TaeJa-tier micro from the terran player, in which you can have the most efficient units AND a simple micro from the protoss opponent, in which you also have the most efficient unit usage. (because protoss units do not have micro potential).
Why are the top level TvPs considered balanced?
Because you have top tier terrans performing miracle engages with their units.\
Why are the lower level TvPs (top foreign level) considered so imbalanced?
Because lower tier terrans do not have the same efficiency with their units, unlike their lower tier protoss opponents, which still have a high efficiency with their units.
That is the problem. Protoss units do not have micro potential, they are all efficient by default, while terran units have their efficiency grown as the player's skill goes up.
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On December 23 2013 02:36 emythrel wrote:
I dont' get why people always seperate our korean terran from foreign terrans, if terran is fine in korea, its fine everywhere else. If korean terrans can beat their overpowered korean Protoss foes then why can't foreign terran beat foreign protoss?. Perhaps the problem isnt with balance but with the players.
The only reason why koeans are better than foreigners is work ethic, there is nothing about being korean that makes u better at starcraft, only the methods they use to train. So basically if you are saying that terran is fine if ur Taeja but not if ur anyone else, the reality of your statement is that you just don't work heard enough. Thats the difference, you aren't as good as your opponents. If Korean terrans can make it work, consistently, and you can't.... its because they are better than you. So maybe instead of blaming balance and David Kim, try looking in a mirror and see that YOU are the problem.
I doubt Taeja gets up in the morning and thinks "I wish David Kim would make my race more powerful so I can put in less practice", no he gets up and practices so fucking hard that even if the race is underpowered, he is sooooo much better than his opponents mechanically, strategically and physically that it doesn't matter. Thats why champions do, they don't bitch and whine.... they work harder than everyone else.
Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Kobe Bryant, David Beckham. What do all those names have in common? They are all considered thet best of their era in their respective sports, ask any of them what made them the best and they will all tell you the same thing, I worked three times harder than anyone else.
Regarding Korean players vs Non-Korean players, the practice environment also plays a huge role, whether you are living at home or at a team house with team mates and staff to support you. Only few players manage to perform at a top level while practicing from home, in fact the only player I can recall doing that is Taeja.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 23 2013 03:26 ( bush wrote:
-on Protoss units
While I agree that Protoss units are, by default, more efficient than the backbone of the Terran army, saying that there is no difference in army control between MaximusBlack and sOs/Dear is both insulting and ignorant. Of course there is. If you watched Starcraft back when Rain was the god of PvP, he won his PvPs through unparallelled positioning and army control. He could have the exact same army as his opponent and still win a fight convincingly the majority of the time. If all Protoss units are already as good as they can be by default, how do you think this could happen?
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On December 23 2013 03:34 Zealously wrote:While I agree that Protoss units are, by default, more efficient than the backbone of the Terran army, saying that there is no difference in army control between MaximusBlack and sOs/Dear is both insulting and ignorant. Of course there is. If you watched Starcraft back when Rain was the god of PvP, he won his PvPs through unparallelled positioning and army control. He could have the exact same army as his opponent and still win a fight convincingly the majority of the time. If all Protoss units are already as good as they can be by default, how do you think this could happen?
Of course there is a difference. But still, not relevant enough if you compare the difference betwen the efficiency of best terrans and the average joe on mid GM.
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if the barcode linked earlier was really Kas, he's still laddering.
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On December 23 2013 03:34 Zealously wrote:While I agree that Protoss units are, by default, more efficient than the backbone of the Terran army, saying that there is no difference in army control between MaximusBlack and sOs/Dear is both insulting and ignorant. Of course there is. If you watched Starcraft back when Rain was the god of PvP, he won his PvPs through unparallelled positioning and army control. He could have the exact same army as his opponent and still win a fight convincingly the majority of the time. If all Protoss units are already as good as they can be by default, how do you think this could happen?
Yep. Heck, even Naniwa does things with VRs that most other Protoss players are not able to do. The top level Protoss players have really good army control and really value their units (as they should as Protoss is about strong and tough but expensive units). It is just not very visible when you watch it, but it is there when you look for it. I can't comment on whether it is comparable to Terran micro etc but to say there is no difference between GM Toss and top level Toss is absurd.
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On December 23 2013 03:34 Zealously wrote:While I agree that Protoss units are, by default, more efficient than the backbone of the Terran army, saying that there is no difference in army control between MaximusBlack and sOs/Dear is both insulting and ignorant. Of course there is. If you watched Starcraft back when Rain was the god of PvP, he won his PvPs through unparallelled positioning and army control. He could have the exact same army as his opponent and still win a fight convincingly the majority of the time. If all Protoss units are already as good as they can be by default, how do you think this could happen?
While I agree that theres a difference between lowtier protoss players and the very best, the difference is much much smaller than between a midtier terran and taeja.
And Rain was the god of PvP partly because people kept attacking into him.
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On December 23 2013 02:17 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 02:09 Thor.Rush wrote:
It's been pretty much impossible for foreign terrans to succeed since the race got nerfed into the ground over the years. Only top korean pro level is more balanced. Below that, it's insane.
By the way, I switched to toss couple months ago. So you can't say I'm a Terran whiner. I'm officially a protoss player now, until things change. So basically, when Terran had a 60+% win rate it was ok. Terran is allowed to crush face, but the other races can't because that's imbalance? There was a singular point before Blord-festor when the game was literally at near perfect balance, but even then there were terrans complaining about "being nerfed into the ground." If korean terrans can do it, there is no reason why a foreigner terran can't learn from them and improve to that point. There isn't some magical barrier that prevents Kas from practicing 13 hours a day every day.
No. Just because T was OP (due to the dumb maps more than anything) on release doesn't excuse every imbalance against T afterwards. Just because Korean Ts CAN win TvP doesn't make it OK. Just like the fact Korean Ts COULD win vs BL/Infestor didn't make it ok either.
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Wow, even the bloodythirsty mods of TL can't give temp bans and warnings for all the "balance whine" happening here. Hahaha.
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On December 23 2013 05:14 TronJovolta wrote:
Wow, even the bloodythirsty mods of TL can't give temp bans and warnings for all the "balance whine" happening here. Hahaha.
Because it's probably not whine but balance discussion with concret arguments.
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Talk about class. Not cutting it as a pro? Let's just go out whining!
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On December 23 2013 05:46 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 05:14 TronJovolta wrote:
Wow, even the bloodythirsty mods of TL can't give temp bans and warnings for all the "balance whine" happening here. Hahaha. Because it's probably not whine but balance discussion with concret arguments.
Depends on who is making them. The folks arguing that Dear and SoS don't micro much more than players like MaximusBlack are pretty whiny and dumb.
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On December 23 2013 05:46 SixStrings wrote:
Talk about class. Not cutting it as a pro? Let's just go out whining!
No foreigner is cutting is as a pro playing terran 
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I just wanna say that Kas has played 58 ladder games on his barcode since he tweeted about retiring.
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On December 23 2013 06:30 ImperialFist wrote:
I just wanna say that Kas has played 58 ladder games on his barcode since he tweeted about retiring.
omg so its true D:
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On December 23 2013 06:30 ImperialFist wrote:
I just wanna say that Kas has played 58 ladder games on his barcode since he tweeted about retiring.
Wtf, has it even been 24h yet? That monster!
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EPT
