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On November 28 2013 11:58 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this. No it isn't. TvT has remained largely consistent, PvP is probably the best it's ever been and ZvZ is marginally improved by making Mutalisks viable, but still nowhere near as exciting as the pre-Roach ling-baneling dance that used to be standard in the matchup. TvZ is nowhere near the legendary heights of the period where it was unquestionably the best matchup in StarCraft II, the entertainment value of PvT is directly related to whether or not the Protoss makes any Colossi, and on that front it will probably never be as good as the glorious days of San the Man's brief reign. And PvZ might be the best it's ever been... maybe... I mean, Colossi are less prominent than they used to be, but on the other hand now we've got Void Rays and Swarm Hosts... So, no, the quality of the games are not better than ever before, "and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this."
SC2 is still not where BW was but you have to admit that HotS is a lot more skill based and a lot less luck based compared to WoL. It is more feasible to recover from build order disadvantages. It is more possible to beat higher supply or higher quality armies through micro. Foreigners are just unable to keep up.
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On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
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On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone. Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once). I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers.
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On November 28 2013 13:02 for_the_swarm wrote:
i think the only way foreigners can win if the whole tournament is best of 3. Then all the foreigners have to do is successfully cheese once and outplay 1 game or cheese twice. In best of 5 or 7, the better player will almost always win, which will be the koreans.
So in other words, you believe in the GSL? hue hue hue. I'm still proposing an alternative. You know, so your boys don't blow it in 2/3 sets and find themselves back in Code A. Ideally the best out of the best for the whole year will actually be found this way (what do you know, the NASL first season was actually onto something except we're amplifying it to an actual League).
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On November 28 2013 13:21 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone. Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once). I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well. I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers.
I think there are a few more factors than just upset potential, which is why I didn't specify "foreign hope". For example, a lot of foreign players have tons of loyal fans who watch the stream specifically because they care about that player. That said, upset potential is indeed probably the biggest factor when it comes to the effect foreigners have on stream viewership.
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You know, I am absolutely shocked that spreading Koreans around the world with WCS didn't work!
I mean, isn't it great practice to get stomped by Koreans in a couple of best of three matches every few months? How come that didn't work? I don't understand. Isn't that how other Korean players got good, by losing to better Koreans they played once every few months?
I can't believe Blizzard was wrong about this...
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United States33551 Posts
I'm more curious who the four riders of the Korean Apocalypse are
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On November 28 2013 13:28 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 13:21 Chaggi wrote:On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone. Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once). I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well. I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers. I think there are a few more factors than just upset potential, which is why I didn't specify "foreign hope". For example, a lot of foreign players have tons of loyal fans who watch the stream specifically because they care about that player. That said, upset potential is indeed probably the biggest factor when it comes to the effect foreigners have on stream viewership.
Most likely. I didn't get a chance to watch RedBull this last weekend, but I was watching I think Unfiltered, and they said how when it was sOs vs Scarlett, the viewership went up to like 60-70k, while for the finals, it was lower by a good amount. But honestly, if I substitute that from sOs vs... random foreign no name Zerg, it's not gonna get much viewership either. But you can say that about random Korean no name too I guess. I just don't think it's as cut and dry as foreigners = good viewership.
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On November 28 2013 13:21 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone. Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once). I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well. I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers.
Over 100k watched the European finals.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Blysky falls. First blood has been taken by San.
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On November 28 2013 14:21 AlternativeEgo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 13:21 Chaggi wrote:On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone. Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once). I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well. I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers. Over 100k watched the European finals.
Anything will get more viewers during European prime time. I think people tend to overanalyze who's playing and not really pay attention to when in the day they're playing.
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On November 28 2013 14:15 Waxangel wrote:
I'm more curious who the four riders of the Korean Apocalypse are
Who are the best players out there who are also unmistakably Korean? Guys who dominate but also haven't been adopted by other countries (Polt, MVP), play for foreign teams (Jaedong, Taeja), or got known for their interaction with the foreign community or foreign tournament play (MC, Bomber)?
Maybe Innovation, Soulkey, sOs, and Dear would be the four?
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On November 28 2013 14:52 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 14:21 AlternativeEgo wrote:On November 28 2013 13:21 Chaggi wrote:On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone. Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once). I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well. I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers. Over 100k watched the European finals. Anything will get more viewers during European prime time. I think people tend to overanalyze who's playing and not really pay attention to when in the day they're playing.
Agree
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On November 28 2013 13:11 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 11:58 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this. No it isn't. TvT has remained largely consistent, PvP is probably the best it's ever been and ZvZ is marginally improved by making Mutalisks viable, but still nowhere near as exciting as the pre-Roach ling-baneling dance that used to be standard in the matchup. TvZ is nowhere near the legendary heights of the period where it was unquestionably the best matchup in StarCraft II, the entertainment value of PvT is directly related to whether or not the Protoss makes any Colossi, and on that front it will probably never be as good as the glorious days of San the Man's brief reign. And PvZ might be the best it's ever been... maybe... I mean, Colossi are less prominent than they used to be, but on the other hand now we've got Void Rays and Swarm Hosts... So, no, the quality of the games are not better than ever before, "and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this." SC2 is still not where BW was but you have to admit that HotS is a lot more skill based and a lot less luck based compared to WoL. It is more feasible to recover from build order disadvantages. It is more possible to beat higher supply or higher quality armies through micro. Foreigners are just unable to keep up.
Could you give some specifics regarding this? I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make.
On November 28 2013 15:16 GulpyBlinkeyes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 14:15 Waxangel wrote:
I'm more curious who the four riders of the Korean Apocalypse are Who are the best players out there who are also unmistakably Korean? Guys who dominate but also haven't been adopted by other countries (Polt, MVP), play for foreign teams (Jaedong, Taeja), or got known for their interaction with the foreign community or foreign tournament play (MC, Bomber)? Maybe Innovation, Soulkey, sOs, and Dear would be the four?
Wasn't Innovation adopted by a foreign team?
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ForGGeddon and aPoltcalypse, never forget
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Thoughts:
DreamHack Winter: ~1%. No way. Stacked to the top and overflowing.
IEM Singapore: ~10%. Long shot, but not implausible with Scarlett attending. Most of the Koreans there aren't top tier, but only 4 foreigners have qualified to challenge them. Unfortunately, Scarlett got placed in the hardest group with Bomber and herO
WCG: ~5%. Doubtful. Prospects look good with only 3 Koreans and some strong players such as Jim, Macsed, and Sen, but PartinG and Soulkey are 2 of the most solid of the top pros; it's difficult to imagine both of them losing a bo5 to a foreigner.
ASUS ROG: ~10%. Unlikely, but conceivable. It has a strong foreigner density compared to IEM/Dreamahck, many of whom are in the upper echelon of non-Koreans. If Naniwa hadn't canceled, I'd have put it up to maybe almost 20%, but as is, Scarlett and co. will have to deal with a quite scary list of Korean names without him.
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On November 28 2013 15:44 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 13:11 andrewlt wrote:On November 28 2013 11:58 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this. No it isn't. TvT has remained largely consistent, PvP is probably the best it's ever been and ZvZ is marginally improved by making Mutalisks viable, but still nowhere near as exciting as the pre-Roach ling-baneling dance that used to be standard in the matchup. TvZ is nowhere near the legendary heights of the period where it was unquestionably the best matchup in StarCraft II, the entertainment value of PvT is directly related to whether or not the Protoss makes any Colossi, and on that front it will probably never be as good as the glorious days of San the Man's brief reign. And PvZ might be the best it's ever been... maybe... I mean, Colossi are less prominent than they used to be, but on the other hand now we've got Void Rays and Swarm Hosts... So, no, the quality of the games are not better than ever before, "and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this." SC2 is still not where BW was but you have to admit that HotS is a lot more skill based and a lot less luck based compared to WoL. It is more feasible to recover from build order disadvantages. It is more possible to beat higher supply or higher quality armies through micro. Foreigners are just unable to keep up. Could you give some specifics regarding this? I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make. Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 15:16 GulpyBlinkeyes wrote:On November 28 2013 14:15 Waxangel wrote:
I'm more curious who the four riders of the Korean Apocalypse are Who are the best players out there who are also unmistakably Korean? Guys who dominate but also haven't been adopted by other countries (Polt, MVP), play for foreign teams (Jaedong, Taeja), or got known for their interaction with the foreign community or foreign tournament play (MC, Bomber)? Maybe Innovation, Soulkey, sOs, and Dear would be the four? Wasn't Innovation adopted by a foreign team?
Oh right! Derp. Not sure why I forgot... I guess my brain is just stuck in the past thinking of him as a Kespa guy.
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On November 28 2013 11:58 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this. No it isn't. TvT has remained largely consistent, PvP is probably the best it's ever been and ZvZ is marginally improved by making Mutalisks viable, but still nowhere near as exciting as the pre-Roach ling-baneling dance that used to be standard in the matchup. TvZ is nowhere near the legendary heights of the period where it was unquestionably the best matchup in StarCraft II, the entertainment value of PvT is directly related to whether or not the Protoss makes any Colossi, and on that front it will probably never be as good as the glorious days of San the Man's brief reign. And PvZ might be the best it's ever been... maybe... I mean, Colossi are less prominent than they used to be, but on the other hand now we've got Void Rays and Swarm Hosts... So, no, the quality of the games are not better than ever before, "and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this."
Omfg, I don't miss the ling-baneling dance one bit, that shit was not good for my heart...
Anyways, I would love to see a foreigner take a tournament again, but seriously, I don't see it happen anytime soon. The foreign teams are just not setting the course necessary.
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What happened to IEM winner (LG)IM_Yoda, btw? Never got to hear anything from him ever again.
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On November 28 2013 14:52 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 14:21 AlternativeEgo wrote:On November 28 2013 13:21 Chaggi wrote:On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone. Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once). I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well. I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers. Over 100k watched the European finals. Anything will get more viewers during European prime time. I think people tend to overanalyze who's playing and not really pay attention to when in the day they're playing.
I've been wondering, why is that the case? I mean, a time unwatchable for the Europeans means that it is somewhat watchable in both Nord and South America, Australia and East Asia. Shouldn't streams like the ESL currently get massive viewers from Korea at the moment or do they have a hidden Korean stream unbeknown to the rest of the world?
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EPT
