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On November 28 2013 18:08 GulpyBlinkeyes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 15:44 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On November 28 2013 13:11 andrewlt wrote:On November 28 2013 11:58 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this. No it isn't. TvT has remained largely consistent, PvP is probably the best it's ever been and ZvZ is marginally improved by making Mutalisks viable, but still nowhere near as exciting as the pre-Roach ling-baneling dance that used to be standard in the matchup. TvZ is nowhere near the legendary heights of the period where it was unquestionably the best matchup in StarCraft II, the entertainment value of PvT is directly related to whether or not the Protoss makes any Colossi, and on that front it will probably never be as good as the glorious days of San the Man's brief reign. And PvZ might be the best it's ever been... maybe... I mean, Colossi are less prominent than they used to be, but on the other hand now we've got Void Rays and Swarm Hosts... So, no, the quality of the games are not better than ever before, "and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this." SC2 is still not where BW was but you have to admit that HotS is a lot more skill based and a lot less luck based compared to WoL. It is more feasible to recover from build order disadvantages. It is more possible to beat higher supply or higher quality armies through micro. Foreigners are just unable to keep up. Could you give some specifics regarding this? I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make. On November 28 2013 15:16 GulpyBlinkeyes wrote:On November 28 2013 14:15 Waxangel wrote:
I'm more curious who the four riders of the Korean Apocalypse are Who are the best players out there who are also unmistakably Korean? Guys who dominate but also haven't been adopted by other countries (Polt, MVP), play for foreign teams (Jaedong, Taeja), or got known for their interaction with the foreign community or foreign tournament play (MC, Bomber)? Maybe Innovation, Soulkey, sOs, and Dear would be the four? Wasn't Innovation adopted by a foreign team? Oh right! Derp. Not sure why I forgot... I guess my brain is just stuck in the past thinking of him as a Kespa guy.
If Innovation joins a foreign team, he doesn't become a foreigner. The foreign team becomes korean!
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I think there's still a chance here for a foreigner to take it. You've got a solid selection of above-average foreigners in there who are able to take maps and even whole games off koreans and, with a lucky run, could make the finals. Plus a few very good players, like Jim, who I feel haven't shown us all they've got to offer yet. Just waiting for a breakout performance.
And then of course you've got the might of the terrible twosome of Naniwa and Scarlett. Probably the two best foreigners around, a legitimate threat to Koreans and one or the other of them are going to three of these tournaments. And the one tournament they're not in is heavily stacked with foreigners, so there's a better chance of someone getting lucky ("quantity has a quality all its own" kind of reasoning).
Personally I'm behind both of them all the way (even if Scarlett's Protoss hating makes me as a member of the Aiur faithful sad  ).
I wouldn't put money on it. But I'm going to stay quietly optimistic.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37067 Posts
On November 28 2013 11:01 PineapplePizza wrote:
Are there any korean articles / forum threads on playxp or whatever that talk about foreigners in StarCraft 2? I think it would be infinitely more interesting to see a Seeker translation for something like that, instead of the usual 'You guys are all fucked' from the writing straff :/
That is going to be difficult imo. Korean eSports websites adhere to a purely Korean audience, and most Koreans don't really pay attention to the foreign scene. TL.net adheres to an international scene, so they write articles for both the Korean scene and the foreign scene.
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On November 28 2013 05:33 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this. No. There are many fans of the game who do not agree.
no, those arent fans of sc2 even if they like to call themselves that.
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On November 28 2013 20:46 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 05:33 farvacola wrote:On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this. No. There are many fans of the game who do not agree. no, those arent fans of sc2 even if they like to call themselves that.
Kind of a big bait for little fish...
I for one don´t mind SC2 being dominated by Koreans as long as they´re Jaedong.
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On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone. Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once). I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right?
Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere.
Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash.
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On November 28 2013 04:39 sM.Zik wrote:Finally the skill level of Starcraft 2 is where it should be 
My thoughts exactly. Competition is a farce unless the best are winning at it consistently.
On November 28 2013 20:02 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 11:01 PineapplePizza wrote:
Are there any korean articles / forum threads on playxp or whatever that talk about foreigners in StarCraft 2? I think it would be infinitely more interesting to see a Seeker translation for something like that, instead of the usual 'You guys are all fucked' from the writing straff :/ That is going to be difficult imo. Korean eSports websites adhere to a purely Korean audience, and most Koreans don't really pay attention to the foreign scene. TL.net adheres to an international scene, so they write articles for both the Korean scene and the foreign scene.
This post pretty much explains to people just how far the Koreans are ahead of foreigners. If some foreigner was consistently beating Koreans and taking Code S by storm, you better believe that there would be writing about it. As is now, foreigners are not even a blip on the radar.
Byebye patriots, make way for quality over likability.
+ Show Spoiler +
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My impression is that the practice mentality and how training is done is the big difference between Foreigners and Koreans.
Reminds me of martial arts saying. there are no secret techniques just secret training methods. What makes some people really good is how they approoch training and practice.
The american and european scene seem to be way more individualistic than the asian scene. Difference between american and for example chiense culture is vast. America the individual is important, China the group, and one should also not gloat, take credit etc. So I think silent training partners, practicing with each other, are much more frequent in Korean gaming houses than Foreign ones.
But this is just speculation on my part. If anyone has insights into the training regimes and differences Im all ears, or rather eyes given the medium.
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On November 29 2013 00:37 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone. Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once). I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well. Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right? Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere. Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash.
I do agree with this somewhat. As an American guy, I have very little in common with EU players, yet I see North American fans cheer for the foreign EU players as if they were natives of Ohio or California or whatnot. It's definitely not a hometown hero thing.
But I don't think it is necessarily just a cheer for the white man and root against the Asian guy either. Of course you will have the occasional dumbass racist, but those are the vast minority. For example, players like Suppy, Xenocider, Sen, Macsed, Jim are all notable foreigners who also are Asian, and they do enjoy a good amount of fan support.
If anything, it's a root for the underdog phenomenon, which translates into root for the non-Korean. It's somewhat troubling because this could easily translate into anti-Korean sentiment, but for the most part the community keeps it civil.
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Except Polt is USA
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On November 29 2013 02:17 theninjin wrote:
My impression is that the practice mentality and how training is done is the big difference between Foreigners and Koreans.
Reminds me of martial arts saying. there are no secret techniques just secret training methods. What makes some people really good is how they approoch training and practice.
The american and european scene seem to be way more individualistic than the asian scene. Difference between american and for example chiense culture is vast. America the individual is important, China the group, and one should also not gloat, take credit etc. So I think silent training partners, practicing with each other, are much more frequent in Korean gaming houses than Foreign ones.
But this is just speculation on my part. If anyone has insights into the training regimes and differences Im all ears, or rather eyes given the medium.
What about Stephano's regimen?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 29 2013 02:32 DinosaurPoop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 02:17 theninjin wrote:
My impression is that the practice mentality and how training is done is the big difference between Foreigners and Koreans.
Reminds me of martial arts saying. there are no secret techniques just secret training methods. What makes some people really good is how they approoch training and practice.
The american and european scene seem to be way more individualistic than the asian scene. Difference between american and for example chiense culture is vast. America the individual is important, China the group, and one should also not gloat, take credit etc. So I think silent training partners, practicing with each other, are much more frequent in Korean gaming houses than Foreign ones.
But this is just speculation on my part. If anyone has insights into the training regimes and differences Im all ears, or rather eyes given the medium. What about Stephano's regimen?
You mean the magical one-hour regimen? >.> I think the community has mostly agreed that Stephano practised more than he claimed, though it is of course difficult to know exactly how much.
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On November 29 2013 02:32 DinosaurPoop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 02:17 theninjin wrote:
My impression is that the practice mentality and how training is done is the big difference between Foreigners and Koreans.
Reminds me of martial arts saying. there are no secret techniques just secret training methods. What makes some people really good is how they approoch training and practice.
The american and european scene seem to be way more individualistic than the asian scene. Difference between american and for example chiense culture is vast. America the individual is important, China the group, and one should also not gloat, take credit etc. So I think silent training partners, practicing with each other, are much more frequent in Korean gaming houses than Foreign ones.
But this is just speculation on my part. If anyone has insights into the training regimes and differences Im all ears, or rather eyes given the medium. What about Stephano's regimen?
If what he used to say was not true we don't know anything about his regimen; it it was true he is the one person on earth who was just born with the ability to play Starcraft which is not something anyone else could emulate.
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I knew he practiced more than he claimed, but I'm pretty sure there are other foreigners who put in as much practice.
I want to know the magic training!
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On November 29 2013 00:37 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone. Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once). I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well. Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right? Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere. Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash.
Isn't your last sentence also racist?
Foreigners cheer for foreigners because they're underdogs. Racism has nothing to do with with it. Europeans and Americans like 'foreign Asians' as well...which is why Sen and the Chinese players have lots of support as well. Most foreigners also have their favourite foreigner, and their favourite Korean.
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On November 28 2013 20:46 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 05:33 farvacola wrote:On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this. No. There are many fans of the game who do not agree. no, those arent fans of sc2 even if they like to call themselves that.
People who tell others how they should be fans are pathetic and small minded.
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"forget ForGGeddon"
Based on his result against innovation, i'd say that one should not forget about Park Ji Soo too fast 
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On November 29 2013 03:10 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 00:37 ES.Genie wrote:On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone. Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once). I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well. Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right? Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere. Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash. Isn't your last sentence also racist? Foreigners cheer for foreigners because they're underdogs. Racism has nothing to do with with it. Europeans and Americans like 'foreign Asians' as well...which is why Sen and the Chinese players have lots of support as well. Most foreigners also have their favourite foreigner, and their favourite Korean.
His point is that the whole point is the "home town" nonsense does not make sense. These people don't support "the homwtown heroes" they cheer for one characteristic, being a non korean. It does not matter if they come from Europe, America, Asia, as long as they are not korean, they are qualified. Oh and that last statement is a simple fact proven over and over so don't even try to make a racist point out of that.
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Naniwa, the foreign hope, has a chance now to do it! Won his group, good start.
Still a mighty long way to go though with DH finals being truly crazy stacked...
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On November 29 2013 05:15 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 03:10 mikkmagro wrote:On November 29 2013 00:37 ES.Genie wrote:On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote:
well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it Because no one watched Brood War right? No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good. So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone. Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once). I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well. Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right? Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere. Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash. Isn't your last sentence also racist? Foreigners cheer for foreigners because they're underdogs. Racism has nothing to do with with it. Europeans and Americans like 'foreign Asians' as well...which is why Sen and the Chinese players have lots of support as well. Most foreigners also have their favourite foreigner, and their favourite Korean. His point is that the whole point is the "home town" nonsense does not make sense. These people don't support "the homwtown heroes" they cheer for one characteristic, being a non korean. It does not matter if they come from Europe, America, Asia, as long as they are not korean, they are qualified. Oh and that last statement is a simple fact proven over and over so don't even try to make a racist point out of that.
dat logic. If a foreigner roots for a foreigner, its racism. If someone calls non-Koreans trash, it's not racism but fact.
If you don't like people rooting for foreigners, or foreigners in general, just stick to watching GSL, GSTL and Proleague, and stop following foreign and international tournaments. You can't tell people what to like or what not to like. It's not racism it's preference and opinion. If it was the American, German, or Chinese scene which had such an over-bearing dominance over the scene, many would probably feel the same towards them. Stop being elitist and just accept that people have different preferences, and there are different fans. I've been a fan of mousesports and Fnatic long before SC2 was ever released, should I stop cheering for the players on my favourite teams because they're not the best? I don't care for most Koreans, because I don't watch Korean tournaments because they're at an impossible time, and nor do I have the time and patience for VODs, so I cheer for players who I've been following since WC3, and other players I see regularly in the European tournaments I watch. I dislike some foreigners and love a few Koreans from seeing them so lively at European events (JD, MC..I'd say StarDust but I like his character but not his playstyle) etc. Just deal with it that people like different things...
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2Bixreo.png)
