The clock is ticking. Not just to the end of 2013, but to annihilation.
Throughout a long and hectic year where HotS and WCS re-ordered the entire scene, and many of our favorite teams and players were swept away on waves of retirement, one overarching thread has gone largely unnoticed: Korea has won every single Premier event in 2013. Each and every one of the MLG, DreamHack, ASUS ROG, HomeStory, IEM and WCS trophies have been taken by players hailing from the Mecca of competitive StarCraft.
Korea only needs to take four more events to close out the year with a perfect all-kill on the rest of the world: Dreamhack Winter, IEM Singapore, WCG, and ASUS ROG NorthCon. Three of those events will happen this weekend, and NorthCon just the week after that. Given the track record of foreigners in 2013, it is a very real possibility that 2013 will become the single worst year for foreigners in the history of SC2.
Yes, there have been some notable performances and close calls. Stephano got to the finals of WCS Europe Season One. Naniwa came within just a single map of defeating Leenock to win DreamHack Stockholm, and also ran through a gauntlet of Koreans to reach the finals of IEM New York. When Scarlett was on her game she looked every bit like a top Korean pro, reaching the semifinals of WCS America and giving WCS champion sOs a run for his money at Red Bull NYC. Even outside the holy trinity of foreigners, others like Snute, Grubby, TLO and Goswser showed they could get hot and make deep runs.
While those are results worthy of respect and admiration, it doesn’t change the fact that they failed to go all the way. For better or for worse we measure everything with championships, and the distance between first and second is even wider than the distance between second and last (ask Jaedong about it). There's no doubt that foreigners taking second gives us hope. But it gives us no satisfaction.
How did this happen? How did this quiet armageddon sneak up on us? No one disputes that the Koreans are the best players in the world, having had deeper roots and a superior infrastructure from the very start of StarCraft 2. But even with its inherent disadvantages, the foreigner scene always had heroes that could stand up to the Koreans and leave them bloodied. 2011 saw players like ThorZaIN, HuK, and even IdrA take points for the West, while Stephano was the standard-bearer of the foreigner cause for all of 2012.
Compared to that, 2013 has been a massacre. Some will point to the fact that the Korean scene got a huge influx of players from the KeSPA switch. While most players from the association failed to live up to elephant-sized expectations, players like INnoVation, sOs, and Soulkey have shown themselves to be world-beaters. Then there's Stephano's retirement to consider. As painful as it might be to admit, a disproportionate amount of foreigner hope had come to rest on his narrow shoulders. On top of that, Koreans just seem to be more interested in taking Euros and dollars. Even with a decrease in paid flights and invitations, more and more Koreans have worked their way to major international tournaments by any means necessary. Whatever the reasons behind it, the situation has never been more grim.
By December 7th, we will know the results of those final four internationals. On December 8th, GSL director Mr. Chae will dress in black tie finery and host the grand finals of the Hot6ix Cup, the final Korean tournament to close the year.
Depending on what happens during those last four minutes until midnight, Mr. Chae might greet the returning Koreans and congratulate them on their finest year yet. He might hand the champion his trophy and tell him he is the best in Korea, and thus truly the best in the world. As he checks the stream numbers, NaNiwa and Scarlett might cross his mind for a moment, before he laughs and wonders why he even thought for a split second that they deserved to be there.
Or, he might look out on the luminaries gathered—all the best Korean progamers, coaches, and teams—and know that for all their success, they are still just one part of a larger world.
On November 28 2013 04:41 IntoTheheart wrote: If the foreigners win all those four events, would this still be the worst year for us?
Nope.
Well, I suppose it depends on how you look at it. In terms of numbers, foreigners would still have won the least tournaments. But not all tournaments won by foreigners in 2012 had line-ups even remotely comparable to almost every single one of this year's tournaments.
On November 28 2013 04:39 sM.Zik wrote: Finally the skill level of Starcraft 2 is where it should be
True, true. I think the best chance for a foreigner to win an event now is around lotv release. I feel like a year or two after lotv seeing a foreigner take a map off of a korean in an offline competition will be huge.
On November 28 2013 04:39 sM.Zik wrote: Finally the skill level of Starcraft 2 is where it should be
True, true. I think the best chance for a foreigner to win an event now is around lotv release. I feel like a year or two after lotv seeing a foreigner take a map off of a korean in an offline competition will be huge.
Nah cmon, i don't think the gap will ever be so huge that foreigners can't win maps from koreans.
Looking at the players who are playing the final four tounaments, IEM and WCG are almost a 100% gone, maybe Asus/Dreamhack could go the other way arround.
I personally dont absolutly NEED a big foreigner win, koreans produce amazing games ( so do foreigners but a Innovation vs sOs will almost always beat any other game in terms of pure quality) and its fun watching. Dont get me wrong, Naniwa or any other foreigner winning Dreamhack would be amazing, but its going to be really hard..
On November 28 2013 04:39 sM.Zik wrote: Finally the skill level of Starcraft 2 is where it should be
True, true. I think the best chance for a foreigner to win an event now is around lotv release. I feel like a year or two after lotv seeing a foreigner take a map off of a korean in an offline competition will be huge.
Nah cmon, i don't think the gap will ever be so huge that foreigners can't win maps from koreans.
No, it might take longer than expected but that gap will show as the skill cap for SC2 is raised
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
Semi-related but I would love to see another GSL World Championship turn-up again. As entertaining as it was, the logistics of hosting the event and having it start before WCS 2014 might be difficult.
I think one of the EG guys could take WCG, Suppy has always been able to take down top koreans and Xeno has been steadily rising imo. Other than that it looks kinda grim, maybe Scarlett, Happy or Nani has a shot.
On November 28 2013 05:25 DJHelium wrote: I think one of the EG guys could take WCG, Suppy has always been able to take down top koreans and Xeno has been steadily rising imo. Other than that it looks kinda grim, maybe Scarlett, Happy or Nani has a shot.
How is Sen doing nowadays?
Teamless and hanging around taiwan pounding on everyone in the region.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
I dont get it, if you dont care about watching great players perform, but only about nationality (please correct me if im wrong but thats the impression youre giving) how can you even enjoy watching sc2 in the first place?
Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
Well written article. The amount and level of Koreans competing abroad have both grown, and that makes it unfair to compare across years. That said, it'd be great to end the year with a major win.
Scarlett is our best bet, though I seriously hope Lucifron goes farther than ever. I love his play, and foreigner terrans just have SO much trouble...
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No. There are many fans of the game who do not agree.
On November 28 2013 05:25 DJHelium wrote: I think one of the EG guys could take WCG, Suppy has always been able to take down top koreans and Xeno has been steadily rising imo. Other than that it looks kinda grim, maybe Scarlett, Happy or Nani has a shot.
How is Sen doing nowadays?
Teamless and hanging around taiwan pounding on everyone in the region.
Nice article. It is indeed a sad state of affairs, but perhaps we simply need to be patient. It is no secret that Korean cultures general acceptance of gaming is far greater than ours (the west) and that we are far behind. However what is also clear is that our culture is becoming more and more accepting and consequently in a few years we may see Europeans and alike coming through who have been playing just as much as the Koreans and are hence able to compete with them.
My only worry is that such developments will arrive too late for Starcraft 2, but in such a multi-cultural world supporting people from other nationalities is hardly uncommon, as any person who supports a good football team will know! So until there are some 'foreigners' to carry the baton, I will be cheering for my favourite Koreans. I beseech you all to do the same!
On November 28 2013 05:35 Musicus wrote: So nailbiting, what will happen in the last 4 minutes?
As the final minutes of the final SC2 tournament takes place, Korean lips will gracefully touch the trophy and trigger a countdown. In those precious few moments foreigner Y2K, Ragnarok, the End will commence as Koreans solidify themselves as the ultimate overlords of SC2.
Or maybe nothing special will happen while Koreans continue to take foreigner money. Great writing by the way stuchiu.
Let's not kid ourselves. Foreigners are done and won't be winning another Premier Tournament unless you lock out all the Koreans. That or you find yourself another miracle outlier like Stephano.
On November 28 2013 05:25 DJHelium wrote: I think one of the EG guys could take WCG, Suppy has always been able to take down top koreans and Xeno has been steadily rising imo. Other than that it looks kinda grim, maybe Scarlett, Happy or Nani has a shot.
How is Sen doing nowadays?
Teamless and hanging around taiwan pounding on everyone in the region.
Even our western heroes?
And Happy b-day!
Atm the only player in tesl to beat him in a series is san in the finals of one of the seasons, he's already beaten san in his current tesl group and has beaten sase before. He's not in the same group as suppy but he does also have TRUE in his group. He never played harstem in Tesl.
besides scarlett and naniwa, which foreigner would you really call to have a skill potential that could equal a, let's say, average gsl ro16 player's skill? I don't think there is any.
On November 28 2013 05:25 DJHelium wrote: I think one of the EG guys could take WCG, Suppy has always been able to take down top koreans and Xeno has been steadily rising imo. Other than that it looks kinda grim, maybe Scarlett, Happy or Nani has a shot.
How is Sen doing nowadays?
Sen beat San in TeSL like a day or two after San 2-0d Jaedong and HyuN in the dailymotion cup. San might not always play his best offline but that's still a solid result imo so at least his ZvP should be ok
On November 28 2013 06:08 boxerfred wrote: besides scarlett and naniwa, which foreigner would you really call to have a skill potential that could equal a, let's say, average gsl ro16 player's skill? I don't think there is any.
I wouldn't say that Scarlett and Naniwa have what it takes to consistently make GSL Ro16 either.
On November 28 2013 06:04 shid0x wrote: i'd say the best chances would be asus or WCG, they have less big obstacles...its gonna be tense tho !
WCS has Soulkey, Parting and Sora. Parting looks damn unstoppable at the moment, Soulkey is Soulkey and Sora looks like a a damn strong dark horse for the tournament, I really don't see any foreigner getting first over them.
At ASUS ROG you have you have Innovation, MMA, jjakji, Life, Jaedong, San and Stardust. This is a damn strong korean line-up and even if Scarlett plays her absolute best I don't think she can overcome that competition. Maybe if she meets Jaedong in the finals she has a chance.
We're dead anyway.. They are one of the main reasons why SC2 is dieing as an E-sport. I've given up on Starcraft for this very reason. I hope you all find enjoyment though. Cheers
On November 28 2013 06:18 MrFUBAR wrote: We're dead anyway.. They are one of the main reasons why SC2 is dieing as an E-sport. I've given up on Starcraft for this very reason. I hope you all find enjoyment though. Cheers
Yeah, because broodwar was really a shitty eSport. I wonder where TeamLiquid.net come from, anybody know their past history?
imo sc2 has never been this fun to watch than how it is today.
I think, although this year looks pretty grim, I think that next year will get better. Why you might ask? There's two facts to consider: talent and practice. I think on the talent side of things, this game is pretty evened up, but with all the team houses, Korea just outpracticed every other region by a large margin this year. As HotS gets figured out more and more, I think some foreigners will catch up and be able to get one or the other tournament win even. That being said: I don't see a foreigner winning one of these four to be honest.
On November 28 2013 06:18 MrFUBAR wrote: We're dead anyway.. They are one of the main reasons why SC2 is dieing as an E-sport. I've given up on Starcraft for this very reason. I hope you all find enjoyment though. Cheers
Yeah I'm of the opinion that Koreans should stop winning in LoL as well so that at least one game can stop dying. With how quickly LoL's popularity is waning, I think we've got more than enough proof that one particular country being really good at a game kills it quickly, just like what happened with Brood War.
On November 28 2013 06:18 MrFUBAR wrote: We're dead anyway.. They are one of the main reasons why SC2 is dieing as an E-sport. I've given up on Starcraft for this very reason. I hope you all find enjoyment though. Cheers
Yeah I'm of the opinion that Koreans should stop winning in LoL as well so that at least one game can stop dying. With how quickly LoL's popularity is waning, I think we've got more than enough proof that one particular country being really good at a game kills it quickly, just like what happened with Brood War.
Good guys samsung ozone, gets owned by Europe at worlds to save league.
On November 28 2013 06:18 MrFUBAR wrote: We're dead anyway.. They are one of the main reasons why SC2 is dieing as an E-sport. I've given up on Starcraft for this very reason. I hope you all find enjoyment though. Cheers
Yeah, because broodwar was really a shitty eSport. I wonder where TeamLiquid.net come from, anybody know their past history?
imo sc2 has never been this fun to watch than how it is today.
Although I don't understand that. A foreginer has never won the GSL in sc2, but Grrr won an OSL in BW. An OSL.. in BW
On November 28 2013 06:18 MrFUBAR wrote: We're dead anyway.. They are one of the main reasons why SC2 is dieing as an E-sport. I've given up on Starcraft for this very reason. I hope you all find enjoyment though. Cheers
Yeah I'm of the opinion that Koreans should stop winning in LoL as well so that at least one game can stop dying. With how quickly LoL's popularity is waning, I think we've got more than enough proof that one particular country being really good at a game kills it quickly, just like what happened with Brood War.
Good guys samsung ozone, gets owned by Europe at worlds to save league.
Dade saved MVP, Samshung and the LoL scene in just one week.
On November 28 2013 06:18 MrFUBAR wrote: We're dead anyway.. They are one of the main reasons why SC2 is dieing as an E-sport. I've given up on Starcraft for this very reason. I hope you all find enjoyment though. Cheers
Yeah, because broodwar was really a shitty eSport. I wonder where TeamLiquid.net come from, anybody know their past history?
imo sc2 has never been this fun to watch than how it is today.
Although I don't understand that. A foreginer has never won the GSL in sc2, but Grrr won an OSL in BW. An OSL.. in BW
BW was in a very different place in 2000 compared to SC2 in 2010. People essentially didn't know how to play Starcraft, whereas Starcraft II had a higher level of play right from the start.
On November 28 2013 06:41 astray71 wrote: I think WCG 2013 is probably going to be the best chance for a foreigner champion. Only 3 Koreans are going: Parting, Soulkey and Sora
That's a little like saying European teams would have a good chance at winning a basketball tournament because Miami Heat and LA Lakers are the only two American teams attending D:
Well since Jaedong wins DH and Asus ROG, in reality there is only IEM and WCG for the foreigners. But Scarlett might just win IEM. Or Hasu WCG if he gets PvP and not Soulkey.
Well, quite the article to make us all even more aware that we have no foreigner hero. The "Last Foreign Hope" story line has been drawn out on TL for too long. Does it even matter? We have so many players in this game that we can rally behind, Korean or otherwise.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
While I get your point (though I find it somewhat weird as you argue with a players play being enjoyable yet there are plenty koreans who play similiar to naniwa/scarlett) your comparison does not work. If you say you don't watch an event because there is no player you enjoy watching attending that event then that'd be the same as not watching a tv show because it features no actor you enjoy.
Didn´t EGXeno win a Tournament? ... With like 10 000 dollars first place? Wouldn´t one count that as Premier Tournament? I mean, IEM Singapur has less money for first prize if I recall correctly.
On November 28 2013 06:58 ElBowser wrote: Didn´t EGXeno win a Tournament? ... With like 10 000 dollars first place? Wouldn´t one count that as Premier Tournament? I mean, IEM Singapur has less money for first prize if I recall correctly.
If I threw together a tournament with no prize money but with every player currently in GSL, it wouldn't be a major tournament per Liquipedia's definition but it sure as hell would be a lot harder to win than IEF.
On November 28 2013 04:51 Enema wrote: Didn't Xenocider win that one Tournament?
You're welcome to consider this a major win, but I don't think many others will.
Xenocider is totally about to win WCG tho, #YouOnlyLiboOnce etc etc
I'd guess WCG is probably our best shot just due to the sheer number of foreigners there? How sick would it be if they all got together and planned sniper builds against the Koreans? A man can dream...
On November 28 2013 06:18 MrFUBAR wrote: We're dead anyway.. They are one of the main reasons why SC2 is dieing as an E-sport. I've given up on Starcraft for this very reason. I hope you all find enjoyment though. Cheers
Yeah, because broodwar was really a shitty eSport. I wonder where TeamLiquid.net come from, anybody know their past history?
imo sc2 has never been this fun to watch than how it is today.
Although I don't understand that. A foreginer has never won the GSL in sc2, but Grrr won an OSL in BW. An OSL.. in BW
BW was in a very different place in 2000 compared to SC2 in 2010. People essentially didn't know how to play Starcraft, whereas Starcraft II had a higher level of play right from the start.
That's a little like saying European teams would have a good chance at winning a basketball tournament because Miami Heat and LA Lakers are the only two American teams attending D:
Yes, that is a considerable point. But if you take it out of context if makes foreign BW sound quite good. And we still lack that really prestigious win. My bet to take that would then be Naniwa, if he could get favourable match ups while maintining a good mindset
Nah, I don't think 1st place is so much different from the other top finishes, really. With 4 runner-ups in Premier events, the foreigners are perfectly fine.
This article was pretty uncalled for and doesn't really do anything but encourage a further gap in the love/relationship between fans and elitists of both sides. If there was a way to down vote this thread I would.
On November 28 2013 06:18 MrFUBAR wrote: We're dead anyway.. They are one of the main reasons why SC2 is dieing as an E-sport. I've given up on Starcraft for this very reason. I hope you all find enjoyment though. Cheers
Yeah I'm of the opinion that Koreans should stop winning in LoL as well so that at least one game can stop dying. With how quickly LoL's popularity is waning, I think we've got more than enough proof that one particular country being really good at a game kills it quickly, just like what happened with Brood War.
That's an extremely bad comparison, considering 90% of Premier LoL tournaments are region-locked. The teams from the different regions don't meet often at all in LoL...every region has their own professional league in which they play. That's why the World Championship was such a huge and unique event. We don't have that in SC2 - every tournament is international.
On November 28 2013 06:58 ElBowser wrote: Didn´t EGXeno win a Tournament? ... With like 10 000 dollars first place? Wouldn´t one count that as Premier Tournament? I mean, IEM Singapur has less money for first prize if I recall correctly.
The tournament Xeno won was definitely not a premier tournament. In fact, Korean pros were not even allowed to participate. He just had to play a random Korean amateur no one has ever heard of, + ret and welmu to win the $10,000. A large prizepool doesn't make an event 'Premier' - you need player quality, production quality etc.
Jim, MacSed and Sen might have a small chance at defeating PartinG, Sora and Soulkey, depending on the match ups. It's surprising how people quickly forget how good some of these players are, just because they don't have a Korean flag. Jim is probably top 10 Protoss in the world, and you can never count Sen out.
A foreign victory in IEM Singapore is extremely, extremely unlikely, though I will definitely be rooting for Happy because he's a great player to watch and I'm still mad he didn't win that series against HyuN at HSC.
ASUS ROG might have a foreigner make a long run. There are a lot of high calibre foreigners who have a chance of knocking out Koreans, but even if a foreigner makes it to the finals against a Korean, they'll 99.9% lose because of the pressure of a Bo7, and in a long series it's virtually impossible for even the best foreigners to win against titans like JD, MMA or Innovation.
DreamHack - foreigners have absolutely no chance. Unless NaNiwa turns super saiyan once again.
I think the bigger Doomsday is that in 2012 there were 42 Premier events and in 2013 - 33 + 4 remaining. Hopefully the new WCS system for 2014 will help to stop such trend of decline and get back to the former activity levels.
p.s. the slight decrease of the number of Premier events is somewhat related to the topic of no foreigners winning them, because with fewer events, there are fewer chances for such a - usually miraculous - thing to happen. Moreover, with fewer events, "everybody" goes to all of them (figuratively) so the competition is harder for foreigners to sneak in a win.
On November 28 2013 07:24 sVnteen wrote: my hopes for the foreigners are nani scarlett hasu and nerchio I think they got a decent shot so go do it guys (and girls) :D
Can't see foreigners taking any of the remaining tournaments. Dreamhack, definitely 100% not happening, IEM, better chances but still no, WCG is bo5 this year so hell no. Asus rog northcon is probably the best chance but Jaedong, Life and Innovation are still there.
On November 28 2013 07:24 sVnteen wrote: my hopes for the foreigners are nani scarlett hasu and nerchio I think they got a decent shot so go do it guys (and girls) :D
On November 28 2013 06:18 MrFUBAR wrote: We're dead anyway.. They are one of the main reasons why SC2 is dieing as an E-sport. I've given up on Starcraft for this very reason. I hope you all find enjoyment though. Cheers
Yeah, because broodwar was really a shitty eSport. I wonder where TeamLiquid.net come from, anybody know their past history?
imo sc2 has never been this fun to watch than how it is today.
Although I don't understand that. A foreginer has never won the GSL in sc2, but Grrr won an OSL in BW. An OSL.. in BW
He won his OSL in 1999 or early 2000, the korean scene was just starting, you really can't compare.
On November 28 2013 06:40 lowercase wrote: We need Jinro to come back and save the day. He made it further than any other foreigner in the GSL, Ro4 at one point.
Again, can't compared the early sc2 scene to how it is today. The kespa switch changed a lot of things.
Player who train 12 hours by day with coach and game house win all tounament?
Many foreigner are not really professional. We say they are because they win money, but for be really a pro-gamer you need to hard train, you need coach, you need GH, and you need to be a real compétitor.
Few day ago ElkY has parcicipated at a french webTV show. Damn this guy is a compétitor, he has go to korea whitout support, train hard ect... He has play some BW and sc2 game at the show, when he losing, he want revenge, he want play more, he don't rage, just play, train for become better. This is a compétitor, a man who has been a reel Starcraft pro-gamer
I'm very disapoited when i look foreigner players who don't want play tournament because too much korean. Or want limitation of korean player. Or against player who say "i dont hard train because i don't want lose the fun of the game". Never professional sportman will speak like this. they are supposed to be pro-gamer, and talking and train like casual. Of course some foreigner are not like this, but too much few for sure.
Foreigner players will win major tounament when they will are really professional and compétitor in their brain, and they will have reel pro structure with coach and gaming house, for help them to improve them skill and strategy.
On November 28 2013 07:49 damoonwolf wrote: Player who train 12 hours by day with coach and game house win all tounament?
Many foreigner are not really professional. We say they are because they win money, but for be really a pro-gamer you need to hard train, you need coach, you need GH, and you need to be a real compétitor.
Few day ago ElkY has parcicipated at a french webTV show. Damn this guy is a compétitor, he has go to korea whitout support, train hard ect... He has play some BW and sc2 game at the show, when he losing, he want revenge, he want play more, he don't rage, just play, train for become better. This is a compétitor, a man who has been a reel Starcraft pro-gamer
I'm very disapoited when i look foreigner players who don't want play tournament because too much korean. Or want limitation of korean player. Or against player who say "i dont hard train because i don't want lose the fun of the game". Never professional sportman will speak like this. they are supposed to be pro-gamer, and talking and train like casual. Of course some foreigner are not like this, but too much few for sure.
Foreigner players will win major tounament when they will are really professional and compétitor in their brain, and they will have reel pro structure with coach and gaming house, for help them to improve them skill and strategy.
When Starcraft II is your life, it's not enough to just train hard if you're not winning. You need to eat and you need to have a place to sleep, among other things. If Starcraft II isn't paying enough, you can't continue playing competitively. I understand what you're saying and I think the fighting spirit among some foreigners is pitiful as well, but you can't just say that they need to "train harder" when the game and the money they can make from it dictates their lives.
On November 28 2013 07:50 slowbacontron wrote: Haha, this article makes Mr. Chae seem like a diabolical mastermind bent on seeing the death of foreigners in SC2 He's a nice and super cool guy!
He is a nice and super cool guy....bent on masterminding the death of foreigners in SC2.
On November 28 2013 07:50 slowbacontron wrote: Haha, this article makes Mr. Chae seem like a diabolical mastermind bent on seeing the death of foreigners in SC2 He's a nice and super cool guy!
He is a nice and super cool guy....bent on masterminding the death of foreigners in SC2.
Hm, I always thought he was masterminding the undeserved promotion of foreigners to gain them more viewers actually.
On November 28 2013 07:49 damoonwolf wrote: Player who train 12 hours by day with coach and game house win all tounament?
Many foreigner are not really professional. We say they are because they win money, but for be really a pro-gamer you need to hard train, you need coach, you need GH, and you need to be a real compétitor.
Few day ago ElkY has parcicipated at a french webTV show. Damn this guy is a compétitor, he has go to korea whitout support, train hard ect... He has play some BW and sc2 game at the show, when he losing, he want revenge, he want play more, he don't rage, just play, train for become better. This is a compétitor, a man who has been a reel Starcraft pro-gamer
I'm very disapoited when i look foreigner players who don't want play tournament because too much korean. Or want limitation of korean player. Or against player who say "i dont hard train because i don't want lose the fun of the game". Never professional sportman will speak like this. they are supposed to be pro-gamer, and talking and train like casual. Of course some foreigner are not like this, but too much few for sure.
Foreigner players will win major tounament when they will are really professional and compétitor in their brain, and they will have reel pro structure with coach and gaming house, for help them to improve them skill and strategy.
When Starcraft II is your life, it's not enough to just train hard if you're not winning. You need to eat and you need to have a place to sleep, among other things. If Starcraft II isn't paying enough, you can't continue playing competitively. I understand what you're saying and I think the fighting spirit among some foreigners is pitiful as well, but you can't just say that they need to "train harder" when the game and the money they can make from it dictates their lives.
Yes of course, you are absolutly right, but this problem is not only for foreigner. Korean player have the same, many esF player or kespa B-teamer have don't pay by their team, and many of them have annonced their retirement recently. But the differences is korean have GH when they can live and eat. It's for this a speak also the the importance of team with coach and GH. But even with GH, them live are hard.
Also, every player know sc2 is not easy money. When you become pro-gamer you know when you go, it's like proffesional tennisman, many of them dont win the money they need for pay a coach and their plane ticket for go to tournament. sc2 pro-gamer is a hard life. you train hard, make sacrifice, and if you don't become a Life, Innovation, Stephano or other great star of the game, you will win few money and gratitude. it's infortunately like this, and not really different that you are foreigner or korean.
On November 28 2013 07:49 damoonwolf wrote: Player who train 12 hours by day with coach and game house win all tounament?
Many foreigner are not really professional. We say they are because they win money, but for be really a pro-gamer you need to hard train, you need coach, you need GH, and you need to be a real compétitor.
Few day ago ElkY has parcicipated at a french webTV show. Damn this guy is a compétitor, he has go to korea whitout support, train hard ect... He has play some BW and sc2 game at the show, when he losing, he want revenge, he want play more, he don't rage, just play, train for become better. This is a compétitor, a man who has been a reel Starcraft pro-gamer
I'm very disapoited when i look foreigner players who don't want play tournament because too much korean. Or want limitation of korean player. Or against player who say "i dont hard train because i don't want lose the fun of the game". Never professional sportman will speak like this. they are supposed to be pro-gamer, and talking and train like casual. Of course some foreigner are not like this, but too much few for sure.
Foreigner players will win major tounament when they will are really professional and compétitor in their brain, and they will have reel pro structure with coach and gaming house, for help them to improve them skill and strategy.
When Starcraft II is your life, it's not enough to just train hard if you're not winning. You need to eat and you need to have a place to sleep, among other things. If Starcraft II isn't paying enough, you can't continue playing competitively. I understand what you're saying and I think the fighting spirit among some foreigners is pitiful as well, but you can't just say that they need to "train harder" when the game and the money they can make from it dictates their lives.
Yes of course, you are absolutly right, but this problem is not only for foreigner. Korean player have the same, many esF player or kespa B-teamer have don't pay by their team, and many of them have annonced their retirement recently. But the differences is korean have GH when they can live and eat. It's for this a talking also about the importance of team with coach and GH. But even with GH, them live are hard.
Also, every player know sc2 is not easy money. When you become pro-gamer you know when you go, it's like proffesional tennisman, many of them dont win the money they need for pay a coach and their plane ticket for go to tournament. sc2 pro-gamer is a hard life. you train hard, make sacrifice, and if you don't become a Life, Innovation, Stephano or other great star of the game, you will win few money and gratitude. it's infortunately like this, and not really different that you are foreigner or korean.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
If Scarlett shows the same performance at IEM Singapore that she has shown at the Red Bull Battle Grounds I really think she has a realistic chance of taking the tournament. While there are some scary Koreans I would still Bomber to be the most dangerous one - and she already beat him. So the chances of her overcoming the foreign curse mid be quite good.
Can we please make this the soundtrack when there is just 1 tournament aka 60 seconds for a foreigner left to win a thing? Will there be a hero for the foreign scene? One man and his gun to stand against the invasion of koreans? One Girl against the odds? Who blinks first?
On November 28 2013 07:50 slowbacontron wrote: Haha, this article makes Mr. Chae seem like a diabolical mastermind bent on seeing the death of foreigners in SC2 He's a nice and super cool guy!
He is a nice and super cool guy....bent on masterminding the death of foreigners in SC2.
Hm, I always thought he was masterminding the undeserved promotion of foreigners to gain them more viewers actually.
I think he made a good point about this in a long ago interview:
Many of the invited foreign players show poor games and are knocked out quickly. Taking this into consideration, aren't some of the Korean players or teams unhappy with the increased foreign seeds?
The teams and players have no qualms. If you think about it the other way, Korean players already receive a higher number of seeds, and better placed seeds as well in foreign tournaments. It's the same principle as how foreign players don't have any complaints about that (although, I guess there may be some discontent?).
If I can use the World Cup as an example, it might be easier to explain. If the World Cup went purely by FIFA rankings, Korea would never be able to play, and it would have become a tournament that only South America and Europe enjoyed.
We don't want GSL to only establish itself as a Korean national league. We want to offer an incentive for foreign players to come to Korea, if they should ever have the opportunity. I think if they use the opportunity to come here and take in Korean pro-gaming culture, then they can become stronger than they are now.
GSL wants to provide those kind of opportunities. Also, I think that we were relatively successful at that last year. Two years ago, could you have imagined so many foreign players working with Korean teams and coming to Korea?
On November 28 2013 05:06 Redrot wrote: Who cares? Koreans are better, this has been established. I don't get the point of the article, what it is trying to argue.
On November 28 2013 04:29 stuchiu wrote: Given the track record of foreigners in 2013, it is a very real possibility that 2013 will become the single worst year for foreigners in the history of SC2.
Hah, I find it funny that you even suggest this could be the worst year. Every year from now on is going to be worse than this year. 2-3 years from now it will be a big story when a foreigner makes it into a major tournament.
On November 28 2013 09:01 VanSCPurge wrote: To be fair, Polt won WCS America twice, and he's like an adopted American.
Also, Snute won a Redbull event did he not? Or do those not count?
EDIT: And then there was ThorZain getting the first foreigner kill in Proleague in how long?
That Thorzain hype in Proleague was kind of amusing, because it was followed shortly by Stephano getting a 6-3 record (and promptly leaving Korea), and Thorzain going 1-5 or something in total?
On November 28 2013 09:07 Jerom wrote: I like it when koreans show that they are better. It's just a matter of time before people will accept it.
You make it sound like there's a single person that thinks the best in the world aren't Koreans...
I agree with many people here. I think it will continue to be ever more Korean dominated. I think interest in the game is actually waning everywhere, but just waning slower in Korea (just a hunch). The non-Korean pool of talent is getting shallower as people leave to play something else.
On November 28 2013 09:24 Efemral wrote: I agree with many people here. I think it will continue to be ever more Korean dominated. I think interest in the game is actually waning everywhere, but just waning slower in Korea (just a hunch). The non-Korean pool of talent is getting shallower as people leave to play something else.
I actually think its waning faster in Korea. There are quite a bit more SC2 events in America and Europe than in Korea. I actually wonder in what state the Korean scene would be if it wasn't for foreign viewers / tournaments.
I don't really care if Koreans win all the tournaments. I just want to see good games between the best players, koreans or foreigners. Nobody should participate in the 100m sprint race because Usain Bolt is winning every time? Koreans are also people like everybody else. I don't see any reason to think of them as different species. They only have more discipline and invest/sacrifice more for the game. For all I care, the only thing that matters is the skill level, not nationality. Italy may have the best pizza, France best cheese, Korea best starcraft players
On November 28 2013 04:41 IntoTheheart wrote: If the foreigners win all those four events, would this still be the worst year for us?
Nope.
Well, I suppose it depends on how you look at it. In terms of numbers, foreigners would still have won the least tournaments. But not all tournaments won by foreigners in 2012 had line-ups even remotely comparable to almost every single one of this year's tournaments.
It's supposed to get harder and harder.
On November 28 2013 09:07 Jerom wrote: I like it when koreans show that they are better. It's just a matter of time before people will accept it.
They're already accepted it. They just don't like it. There is a difference between the two. It is possible to have the best of both worlds you just have to get rid of the love affair with the current group stages. One season per year. Every player plays everyone else. Several times. You still have your major circuit. Viola. Everyone wins and improves.
On November 28 2013 09:44 Taboo wrote: I don't really care if Koreans win all the tournaments. I just want to see good games between the best players, koreans or foreigners. Nobody should participate in the 100m sprint race because Usain Bolt is winning every time? Koreans are also people like everybody else. I don't see any reason to think of them as different species. They only have more discipline and invest/sacrifice more for the game. For all I care, the only thing that matters is the skill level, not nationality. Italy may have the best pizza, France best cheese, Korea best starcraft players
This is entertainment, though. Virtually every sport tries to foster talents outside of its core demographic because its simply good for business.
Every top SC2 player being Korean doesn't affect the quality of play, but it does affect the interest sponsors are likely to have and, at the end of the day, it makes the pie smaller for those top players.
That's why we should care: we need a healthy foreign scene to draw new people in.
It might not matter to figure skating fans that Kim Yu-Na is Korean, but it sure as hell matters to figure skating. Same concept: it might not matter to SC fans that Scarlett is Canadian, but it certainly matters to the scene.
On November 28 2013 09:54 Parcelleus wrote: nationalism pffff
Meh, its everywhere. Do you honestly believe BW would have been popular in Korea if the top 200 players where all Chinese? Or Swedish? Or American? Or, generally, if there was no good Korean player?
On November 28 2013 09:01 VanSCPurge wrote: To be fair, Polt won WCS America twice, and he's like an adopted American.
Also, Snute won a Redbull event did he not? Or do those not count?
EDIT: And then there was ThorZain getting the first foreigner kill in Proleague in how long?
That Thorzain hype in Proleague was kind of amusing, because it was followed shortly by Stephano getting a 6-3 record (and promptly leaving Korea), and Thorzain going 1-5 or something in total?
On November 28 2013 09:07 Jerom wrote: I like it when koreans show that they are better. It's just a matter of time before people will accept it.
You make it sound like there's a single person that thinks the best in the world aren't Koreans...
Since when was Stephano 6-3? He was one game over five hundred just like I predicted. I won a lot of money due to that too. o; Those are special events man that mean very little in the bigger scheme of things.
On November 28 2013 09:54 Parcelleus wrote: nationalism pffff
Meh, its everywhere. Do you honestly believe BW would have been popular in Korea if the top 200 players where all Chinese? Or Swedish? Or American? Or, generally, if there was no good Korean player?
You are aware that Giyom and ElkY were big stars in Korea at the start and the audience was fascinated with them because they were exotic foreigners right? Just checking. Everyone was playing the game at PC Bangs at the time. You could make an argument for the guys who came later because several Korean players were idolized, but other than that you cannot be serious. Also the game was huge in China and guess what genius? They were the 2nd biggest scene for BW. ._.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
Great for you, but I'm pretty sure nobody cares. This is not the "Will you stop watching Sc2 if your favourite players can't win anything"-thread, even though the article is pretty senseless. I mean, was it really necessary to do this big write up just to tell us Non-Koreans were unable to win a major championship this year? I'm sure there are better things to write about.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
Great for you, but I'm pretty sure nobody cares. This is not the "Will you stop watching Sc2 if your favourite players can't win anything"-thread, even though the article is pretty senseless. I mean, was it really necessary to do this big write up just to tell us Non-Koreans were unable to win a major championship this year? I'm sure there are better things to write about.
I agree. It's to be expected. Guess he just wanted something to write about.
Are there any korean articles / forum threads on playxp or whatever that talk about foreigners in StarCraft 2? I think it would be infinitely more interesting to see a Seeker translation for something like that, instead of the usual 'You guys are all fucked' from the writing straff :/
On November 28 2013 09:44 Taboo wrote: I don't really care if Koreans win all the tournaments. I just want to see good games between the best players, koreans or foreigners. Nobody should participate in the 100m sprint race because Usain Bolt is winning every time? Koreans are also people like everybody else. I don't see any reason to think of them as different species. They only have more discipline and invest/sacrifice more for the game. For all I care, the only thing that matters is the skill level, not nationality. Italy may have the best pizza, France best cheese, Korea best starcraft players
On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No it isn't. TvT has remained largely consistent, PvP is probably the best it's ever been and ZvZ is marginally improved by making Mutalisks viable, but still nowhere near as exciting as the pre-Roach ling-baneling dance that used to be standard in the matchup.
TvZ is nowhere near the legendary heights of the period where it was unquestionably the best matchup in StarCraft II, the entertainment value of PvT is directly related to whether or not the Protoss makes any Colossi, and on that front it will probably never be as good as the glorious days of San the Man's brief reign. And PvZ might be the best it's ever been... maybe... I mean, Colossi are less prominent than they used to be, but on the other hand now we've got Void Rays and Swarm Hosts...
So, no, the quality of the games are not better than ever before, "and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this."
On November 28 2013 11:01 PineapplePizza wrote: Are there any korean articles / forum threads on playxp or whatever that talk about foreigners in StarCraft 2? I think it would be infinitely more interesting to see a Seeker translation for something like that, instead of the usual 'You guys are all fucked' from the writing straff :/
You can't argue with facts that is almost an all kill for the year. If your a fan of anyone who isn't a Korea, its a bit of a bummer for you. If your favorite players are winning, then its great. Personally, none of my Korea heroes, like MC, have won much this year. But like when you find out your local baseball team isn't going to the play offs, the season is pretty much over for people who are fans for foreign players.
i think the only way foreigners can win if the whole tournament is best of 3. Then all the foreigners have to do is successfully cheese once and outplay 1 game or cheese twice. In best of 5 or 7, the better player will almost always win, which will be the koreans.
On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No it isn't. TvT has remained largely consistent, PvP is probably the best it's ever been and ZvZ is marginally improved by making Mutalisks viable, but still nowhere near as exciting as the pre-Roach ling-baneling dance that used to be standard in the matchup.
TvZ is nowhere near the legendary heights of the period where it was unquestionably the best matchup in StarCraft II, the entertainment value of PvT is directly related to whether or not the Protoss makes any Colossi, and on that front it will probably never be as good as the glorious days of San the Man's brief reign. And PvZ might be the best it's ever been... maybe... I mean, Colossi are less prominent than they used to be, but on the other hand now we've got Void Rays and Swarm Hosts...
So, no, the quality of the games are not better than ever before, "and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this."
SC2 is still not where BW was but you have to admit that HotS is a lot more skill based and a lot less luck based compared to WoL. It is more feasible to recover from build order disadvantages. It is more possible to beat higher supply or higher quality armies through micro. Foreigners are just unable to keep up.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers.
On November 28 2013 13:02 for_the_swarm wrote: i think the only way foreigners can win if the whole tournament is best of 3. Then all the foreigners have to do is successfully cheese once and outplay 1 game or cheese twice. In best of 5 or 7, the better player will almost always win, which will be the koreans.
So in other words, you believe in the GSL? hue hue hue. I'm still proposing an alternative. You know, so your boys don't blow it in 2/3 sets and find themselves back in Code A. Ideally the best out of the best for the whole year will actually be found this way (what do you know, the NASL first season was actually onto something except we're amplifying it to an actual League).
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers.
I think there are a few more factors than just upset potential, which is why I didn't specify "foreign hope". For example, a lot of foreign players have tons of loyal fans who watch the stream specifically because they care about that player. That said, upset potential is indeed probably the biggest factor when it comes to the effect foreigners have on stream viewership.
You know, I am absolutely shocked that spreading Koreans around the world with WCS didn't work!
I mean, isn't it great practice to get stomped by Koreans in a couple of best of three matches every few months? How come that didn't work? I don't understand. Isn't that how other Korean players got good, by losing to better Koreans they played once every few months?
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers.
I think there are a few more factors than just upset potential, which is why I didn't specify "foreign hope". For example, a lot of foreign players have tons of loyal fans who watch the stream specifically because they care about that player. That said, upset potential is indeed probably the biggest factor when it comes to the effect foreigners have on stream viewership.
Most likely. I didn't get a chance to watch RedBull this last weekend, but I was watching I think Unfiltered, and they said how when it was sOs vs Scarlett, the viewership went up to like 60-70k, while for the finals, it was lower by a good amount. But honestly, if I substitute that from sOs vs... random foreign no name Zerg, it's not gonna get much viewership either. But you can say that about random Korean no name too I guess. I just don't think it's as cut and dry as foreigners = good viewership.
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers.
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers.
Over 100k watched the European finals.
Anything will get more viewers during European prime time. I think people tend to overanalyze who's playing and not really pay attention to when in the day they're playing.
On November 28 2013 14:15 Waxangel wrote: I'm more curious who the four riders of the Korean Apocalypse are
Who are the best players out there who are also unmistakably Korean? Guys who dominate but also haven't been adopted by other countries (Polt, MVP), play for foreign teams (Jaedong, Taeja), or got known for their interaction with the foreign community or foreign tournament play (MC, Bomber)?
Maybe Innovation, Soulkey, sOs, and Dear would be the four?
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers.
Over 100k watched the European finals.
Anything will get more viewers during European prime time. I think people tend to overanalyze who's playing and not really pay attention to when in the day they're playing.
On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No it isn't. TvT has remained largely consistent, PvP is probably the best it's ever been and ZvZ is marginally improved by making Mutalisks viable, but still nowhere near as exciting as the pre-Roach ling-baneling dance that used to be standard in the matchup.
TvZ is nowhere near the legendary heights of the period where it was unquestionably the best matchup in StarCraft II, the entertainment value of PvT is directly related to whether or not the Protoss makes any Colossi, and on that front it will probably never be as good as the glorious days of San the Man's brief reign. And PvZ might be the best it's ever been... maybe... I mean, Colossi are less prominent than they used to be, but on the other hand now we've got Void Rays and Swarm Hosts...
So, no, the quality of the games are not better than ever before, "and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this."
SC2 is still not where BW was but you have to admit that HotS is a lot more skill based and a lot less luck based compared to WoL. It is more feasible to recover from build order disadvantages. It is more possible to beat higher supply or higher quality armies through micro. Foreigners are just unable to keep up.
Could you give some specifics regarding this? I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make.
On November 28 2013 14:15 Waxangel wrote: I'm more curious who the four riders of the Korean Apocalypse are
Who are the best players out there who are also unmistakably Korean? Guys who dominate but also haven't been adopted by other countries (Polt, MVP), play for foreign teams (Jaedong, Taeja), or got known for their interaction with the foreign community or foreign tournament play (MC, Bomber)?
Maybe Innovation, Soulkey, sOs, and Dear would be the four?
DreamHack Winter: ~1%. No way. Stacked to the top and overflowing.
IEM Singapore: ~10%. Long shot, but not implausible with Scarlett attending. Most of the Koreans there aren't top tier, but only 4 foreigners have qualified to challenge them. Unfortunately, Scarlett got placed in the hardest group with Bomber and herO
WCG: ~5%. Doubtful. Prospects look good with only 3 Koreans and some strong players such as Jim, Macsed, and Sen, but PartinG and Soulkey are 2 of the most solid of the top pros; it's difficult to imagine both of them losing a bo5 to a foreigner.
ASUS ROG: ~10%. Unlikely, but conceivable. It has a strong foreigner density compared to IEM/Dreamahck, many of whom are in the upper echelon of non-Koreans. If Naniwa hadn't canceled, I'd have put it up to maybe almost 20%, but as is, Scarlett and co. will have to deal with a quite scary list of Korean names without him.
On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No it isn't. TvT has remained largely consistent, PvP is probably the best it's ever been and ZvZ is marginally improved by making Mutalisks viable, but still nowhere near as exciting as the pre-Roach ling-baneling dance that used to be standard in the matchup.
TvZ is nowhere near the legendary heights of the period where it was unquestionably the best matchup in StarCraft II, the entertainment value of PvT is directly related to whether or not the Protoss makes any Colossi, and on that front it will probably never be as good as the glorious days of San the Man's brief reign. And PvZ might be the best it's ever been... maybe... I mean, Colossi are less prominent than they used to be, but on the other hand now we've got Void Rays and Swarm Hosts...
So, no, the quality of the games are not better than ever before, "and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this."
SC2 is still not where BW was but you have to admit that HotS is a lot more skill based and a lot less luck based compared to WoL. It is more feasible to recover from build order disadvantages. It is more possible to beat higher supply or higher quality armies through micro. Foreigners are just unable to keep up.
Could you give some specifics regarding this? I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make.
On November 28 2013 14:15 Waxangel wrote: I'm more curious who the four riders of the Korean Apocalypse are
Who are the best players out there who are also unmistakably Korean? Guys who dominate but also haven't been adopted by other countries (Polt, MVP), play for foreign teams (Jaedong, Taeja), or got known for their interaction with the foreign community or foreign tournament play (MC, Bomber)?
Maybe Innovation, Soulkey, sOs, and Dear would be the four?
Wasn't Innovation adopted by a foreign team?
Oh right! Derp. Not sure why I forgot... I guess my brain is just stuck in the past thinking of him as a Kespa guy.
On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No it isn't. TvT has remained largely consistent, PvP is probably the best it's ever been and ZvZ is marginally improved by making Mutalisks viable, but still nowhere near as exciting as the pre-Roach ling-baneling dance that used to be standard in the matchup.
TvZ is nowhere near the legendary heights of the period where it was unquestionably the best matchup in StarCraft II, the entertainment value of PvT is directly related to whether or not the Protoss makes any Colossi, and on that front it will probably never be as good as the glorious days of San the Man's brief reign. And PvZ might be the best it's ever been... maybe... I mean, Colossi are less prominent than they used to be, but on the other hand now we've got Void Rays and Swarm Hosts...
So, no, the quality of the games are not better than ever before, "and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this."
Omfg, I don't miss the ling-baneling dance one bit, that shit was not good for my heart...
Anyways, I would love to see a foreigner take a tournament again, but seriously, I don't see it happen anytime soon. The foreign teams are just not setting the course necessary.
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
I don't agree with the last part as it stands. I dont' think stream viewership is considerably affected by simply just foreigner presence, but by the presence of a foreigner hope, those like Stephano, Scarlett, HuK, Idra, etc. I can't imagine (and I think the numbers for WCS 2012 back it up) that a foreigner only tournament would do well. You need to have really really strong foreigners that have a chance at beating top Koreans to get the high stream numbers.
Over 100k watched the European finals.
Anything will get more viewers during European prime time. I think people tend to overanalyze who's playing and not really pay attention to when in the day they're playing.
I've been wondering, why is that the case? I mean, a time unwatchable for the Europeans means that it is somewhat watchable in both Nord and South America, Australia and East Asia. Shouldn't streams like the ESL currently get massive viewers from Korea at the moment or do they have a hidden Korean stream unbeknown to the rest of the world?
On November 28 2013 05:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No it isn't. TvT has remained largely consistent, PvP is probably the best it's ever been and ZvZ is marginally improved by making Mutalisks viable, but still nowhere near as exciting as the pre-Roach ling-baneling dance that used to be standard in the matchup.
TvZ is nowhere near the legendary heights of the period where it was unquestionably the best matchup in StarCraft II, the entertainment value of PvT is directly related to whether or not the Protoss makes any Colossi, and on that front it will probably never be as good as the glorious days of San the Man's brief reign. And PvZ might be the best it's ever been... maybe... I mean, Colossi are less prominent than they used to be, but on the other hand now we've got Void Rays and Swarm Hosts...
So, no, the quality of the games are not better than ever before, "and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this."
SC2 is still not where BW was but you have to admit that HotS is a lot more skill based and a lot less luck based compared to WoL. It is more feasible to recover from build order disadvantages. It is more possible to beat higher supply or higher quality armies through micro. Foreigners are just unable to keep up.
Could you give some specifics regarding this? I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make.
On November 28 2013 15:16 GulpyBlinkeyes wrote:
On November 28 2013 14:15 Waxangel wrote: I'm more curious who the four riders of the Korean Apocalypse are
Who are the best players out there who are also unmistakably Korean? Guys who dominate but also haven't been adopted by other countries (Polt, MVP), play for foreign teams (Jaedong, Taeja), or got known for their interaction with the foreign community or foreign tournament play (MC, Bomber)?
Maybe Innovation, Soulkey, sOs, and Dear would be the four?
Wasn't Innovation adopted by a foreign team?
Oh right! Derp. Not sure why I forgot... I guess my brain is just stuck in the past thinking of him as a Kespa guy.
If Innovation joins a foreign team, he doesn't become a foreigner. The foreign team becomes korean!
I think there's still a chance here for a foreigner to take it. You've got a solid selection of above-average foreigners in there who are able to take maps and even whole games off koreans and, with a lucky run, could make the finals. Plus a few very good players, like Jim, who I feel haven't shown us all they've got to offer yet. Just waiting for a breakout performance.
And then of course you've got the might of the terrible twosome of Naniwa and Scarlett. Probably the two best foreigners around, a legitimate threat to Koreans and one or the other of them are going to three of these tournaments. And the one tournament they're not in is heavily stacked with foreigners, so there's a better chance of someone getting lucky ("quantity has a quality all its own" kind of reasoning).
Personally I'm behind both of them all the way (even if Scarlett's Protoss hating makes me as a member of the Aiur faithful sad ).
I wouldn't put money on it. But I'm going to stay quietly optimistic.
On November 28 2013 11:01 PineapplePizza wrote: Are there any korean articles / forum threads on playxp or whatever that talk about foreigners in StarCraft 2? I think it would be infinitely more interesting to see a Seeker translation for something like that, instead of the usual 'You guys are all fucked' from the writing straff :/
That is going to be difficult imo. Korean eSports websites adhere to a purely Korean audience, and most Koreans don't really pay attention to the foreign scene. TL.net adheres to an international scene, so they write articles for both the Korean scene and the foreign scene.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No. There are many fans of the game who do not agree.
no, those arent fans of sc2 even if they like to call themselves that.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No. There are many fans of the game who do not agree.
no, those arent fans of sc2 even if they like to call themselves that.
Kind of a big bait for little fish...
I for one don´t mind SC2 being dominated by Koreans as long as they´re Jaedong.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right?
Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere.
On November 28 2013 11:01 PineapplePizza wrote: Are there any korean articles / forum threads on playxp or whatever that talk about foreigners in StarCraft 2? I think it would be infinitely more interesting to see a Seeker translation for something like that, instead of the usual 'You guys are all fucked' from the writing straff :/
That is going to be difficult imo. Korean eSports websites adhere to a purely Korean audience, and most Koreans don't really pay attention to the foreign scene. TL.net adheres to an international scene, so they write articles for both the Korean scene and the foreign scene.
This post pretty much explains to people just how far the Koreans are ahead of foreigners. If some foreigner was consistently beating Koreans and taking Code S by storm, you better believe that there would be writing about it. As is now, foreigners are not even a blip on the radar.
Byebye patriots, make way for quality over likability.
My impression is that the practice mentality and how training is done is the big difference between Foreigners and Koreans. Reminds me of martial arts saying. there are no secret techniques just secret training methods. What makes some people really good is how they approoch training and practice.
The american and european scene seem to be way more individualistic than the asian scene. Difference between american and for example chiense culture is vast. America the individual is important, China the group, and one should also not gloat, take credit etc. So I think silent training partners, practicing with each other, are much more frequent in Korean gaming houses than Foreign ones.
But this is just speculation on my part. If anyone has insights into the training regimes and differences Im all ears, or rather eyes given the medium.
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right?
Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere.
Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash.
I do agree with this somewhat. As an American guy, I have very little in common with EU players, yet I see North American fans cheer for the foreign EU players as if they were natives of Ohio or California or whatnot. It's definitely not a hometown hero thing.
But I don't think it is necessarily just a cheer for the white man and root against the Asian guy either. Of course you will have the occasional dumbass racist, but those are the vast minority. For example, players like Suppy, Xenocider, Sen, Macsed, Jim are all notable foreigners who also are Asian, and they do enjoy a good amount of fan support.
If anything, it's a root for the underdog phenomenon, which translates into root for the non-Korean. It's somewhat troubling because this could easily translate into anti-Korean sentiment, but for the most part the community keeps it civil.
On November 29 2013 02:17 theninjin wrote: My impression is that the practice mentality and how training is done is the big difference between Foreigners and Koreans. Reminds me of martial arts saying. there are no secret techniques just secret training methods. What makes some people really good is how they approoch training and practice.
The american and european scene seem to be way more individualistic than the asian scene. Difference between american and for example chiense culture is vast. America the individual is important, China the group, and one should also not gloat, take credit etc. So I think silent training partners, practicing with each other, are much more frequent in Korean gaming houses than Foreign ones.
But this is just speculation on my part. If anyone has insights into the training regimes and differences Im all ears, or rather eyes given the medium.
On November 29 2013 02:17 theninjin wrote: My impression is that the practice mentality and how training is done is the big difference between Foreigners and Koreans. Reminds me of martial arts saying. there are no secret techniques just secret training methods. What makes some people really good is how they approoch training and practice.
The american and european scene seem to be way more individualistic than the asian scene. Difference between american and for example chiense culture is vast. America the individual is important, China the group, and one should also not gloat, take credit etc. So I think silent training partners, practicing with each other, are much more frequent in Korean gaming houses than Foreign ones.
But this is just speculation on my part. If anyone has insights into the training regimes and differences Im all ears, or rather eyes given the medium.
What about Stephano's regimen?
You mean the magical one-hour regimen? >.> I think the community has mostly agreed that Stephano practised more than he claimed, though it is of course difficult to know exactly how much.
On November 29 2013 02:17 theninjin wrote: My impression is that the practice mentality and how training is done is the big difference between Foreigners and Koreans. Reminds me of martial arts saying. there are no secret techniques just secret training methods. What makes some people really good is how they approoch training and practice.
The american and european scene seem to be way more individualistic than the asian scene. Difference between american and for example chiense culture is vast. America the individual is important, China the group, and one should also not gloat, take credit etc. So I think silent training partners, practicing with each other, are much more frequent in Korean gaming houses than Foreign ones.
But this is just speculation on my part. If anyone has insights into the training regimes and differences Im all ears, or rather eyes given the medium.
What about Stephano's regimen?
If what he used to say was not true we don't know anything about his regimen; it it was true he is the one person on earth who was just born with the ability to play Starcraft which is not something anyone else could emulate.
I knew he practiced more than he claimed, but I'm pretty sure there are other foreigners who put in as much practice. I want to know the magic training!
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right?
Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere.
Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash.
Isn't your last sentence also racist?
Foreigners cheer for foreigners because they're underdogs. Racism has nothing to do with with it. Europeans and Americans like 'foreign Asians' as well...which is why Sen and the Chinese players have lots of support as well. Most foreigners also have their favourite foreigner, and their favourite Korean.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No. There are many fans of the game who do not agree.
no, those arent fans of sc2 even if they like to call themselves that.
People who tell others how they should be fans are pathetic and small minded.
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right?
Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere.
Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash.
Isn't your last sentence also racist?
Foreigners cheer for foreigners because they're underdogs. Racism has nothing to do with with it. Europeans and Americans like 'foreign Asians' as well...which is why Sen and the Chinese players have lots of support as well. Most foreigners also have their favourite foreigner, and their favourite Korean.
His point is that the whole point is the "home town" nonsense does not make sense. These people don't support "the homwtown heroes" they cheer for one characteristic, being a non korean. It does not matter if they come from Europe, America, Asia, as long as they are not korean, they are qualified. Oh and that last statement is a simple fact proven over and over so don't even try to make a racist point out of that.
Naniwa, the foreign hope, has a chance now to do it! Won his group, good start. Still a mighty long way to go though with DH finals being truly crazy stacked...
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right?
Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere.
Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash.
Isn't your last sentence also racist?
Foreigners cheer for foreigners because they're underdogs. Racism has nothing to do with with it. Europeans and Americans like 'foreign Asians' as well...which is why Sen and the Chinese players have lots of support as well. Most foreigners also have their favourite foreigner, and their favourite Korean.
His point is that the whole point is the "home town" nonsense does not make sense. These people don't support "the homwtown heroes" they cheer for one characteristic, being a non korean. It does not matter if they come from Europe, America, Asia, as long as they are not korean, they are qualified. Oh and that last statement is a simple fact proven over and over so don't even try to make a racist point out of that.
dat logic. If a foreigner roots for a foreigner, its racism. If someone calls non-Koreans trash, it's not racism but fact.
If you don't like people rooting for foreigners, or foreigners in general, just stick to watching GSL, GSTL and Proleague, and stop following foreign and international tournaments. You can't tell people what to like or what not to like. It's not racism it's preference and opinion. If it was the American, German, or Chinese scene which had such an over-bearing dominance over the scene, many would probably feel the same towards them. Stop being elitist and just accept that people have different preferences, and there are different fans. I've been a fan of mousesports and Fnatic long before SC2 was ever released, should I stop cheering for the players on my favourite teams because they're not the best? I don't care for most Koreans, because I don't watch Korean tournaments because they're at an impossible time, and nor do I have the time and patience for VODs, so I cheer for players who I've been following since WC3, and other players I see regularly in the European tournaments I watch. I dislike some foreigners and love a few Koreans from seeing them so lively at European events (JD, MC..I'd say StarDust but I like his character but not his playstyle) etc. Just deal with it that people like different things...
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right?
Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere.
Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash.
Isn't your last sentence also racist?
Foreigners cheer for foreigners because they're underdogs. Racism has nothing to do with with it. Europeans and Americans like 'foreign Asians' as well...which is why Sen and the Chinese players have lots of support as well. Most foreigners also have their favourite foreigner, and their favourite Korean.
His point is that the whole point is the "home town" nonsense does not make sense. These people don't support "the homwtown heroes" they cheer for one characteristic, being a non korean. It does not matter if they come from Europe, America, Asia, as long as they are not korean, they are qualified. Oh and that last statement is a simple fact proven over and over so don't even try to make a racist point out of that.
dat logic. If a foreigner roots for a foreigner, its racism. If someone calls non-Koreans trash, it's not racism but fact.
If you don't like people rooting for foreigners, or foreigners in general, just stick to watching GSL, GSTL and Proleague, and stop following foreign and international tournaments. You can't tell people what to like or what not to like. It's not racism it's preference and opinion. If it was the American, German, or Chinese scene which had such an over-bearing dominance over the scene, many would probably feel the same towards them. Stop being elitist and just accept that people have different preferences, and there are different fans. I've been a fan of mousesports and Fnatic long before SC2 was ever released, should I stop cheering for the players on my favourite teams because they're not the best? I don't care for most Koreans, because I don't watch Korean tournaments because they're at an impossible time, and nor do I have the time and patience for VODs, so I cheer for players who I've been following since WC3, and other players I see regularly in the European tournaments I watch. I dislike some foreigners and love a few Koreans from seeing them so lively at European events (JD, MC..I'd say StarDust but I like his character but not his playstyle) etc. Just deal with it that people like different things...
So instead of addressing his point you (once again) do a whole rant about raciscm. good job.
This whole argument is kinda pointless. People aren't really racist, they just can relate more to foreigners and here it comes, cause foreigners speak english. I mean i care more for good games and "skill", but i can see why the translation stuff on the stage for example is kinda annoying and it creates the language barrier which is pretty big. There is a reason koreans who speak english have more fans most of the time.
It's not whether you expect a foreigner to win a tournament.. it's more like whether you'd be really happy to be surprised about it..
And IDK about you sir (the OP/thread writer), but I don't see the point of all this..
And that's like MOSTLY case I'm really satisfied/happy of the foreign hope.. It's a good state to have a talent and still no results.. I don't see why would be "concerned" while in fact eSports is growing..
================================================================ Outside of Korea too - eSports is GROWING.. And here's why I think about it ================================================================ In 2013 we got players like Babyknight, Daishy, HerOMarinE, Welmu, and even MarineLord lately.. Like - we're soon to be in a position to make it happen where we all thought it was impossible to be - actually have a Foreigner TERRAN elite..
Perhaps NA doesn't seem to have quite a bit of young talents or future as say EU currently has, but pretty sure that there are some to be.. Speaking about it - expecting/hoping the two S-name players that are currently in Korea (or to be there I think) - State and Snute - to potentially going to shine in the near future.. at least a bit..
And yes - again - it wasn't about whether foreigner will win a major all-star-best player tournament.. It was about the quality of play..
================================================================ There are also other sports (in real life too) that one country really dominates, don't you agree ?? ================================================================ Many countries (and by many here I think like maybe ALL of them, lol) haven't managed to beat US in basketball for like what - 10, 20, 50 years ?? - so --> should they post a thing like this ??
Like - if the rest of the world created a team and trained and created the strongest all-star team there can be - will they still be able to win over NBA from US ??, ofc - it will be oh-so-damn-close, but if they lose, should the rest of the world really mourn about it ?
If there was a Basketball tourney every two weeks, should the rest of the world be "concerned" about US winning all the time ??, ofc. the BB international stage is growing and for example Spain and Argentina are as close an all-star team nearly NBA quality as it gets, but yah - why have the need to specifically make a thread/concern/special-effort pointing about it.. ??
Wrote about the BB as a sport cause of analogy usage o.f.c., not to derail it..
================================================================ Reason to "react" like this directly.. ================================================================ Honestly sir, i don't think you're helping, it feels like you're just making it be/feel worse than it actually is..
Rofl, like - when read the title is as almost my heart stopped man, it's like "judgement-day" title or sth.. And even more specifically - title sounded like ForGG left and returned to Korea about it and like some kind of a "prophecy" of all the other Koreans soon leaving.. ??
For a moment thought that ALL the Koreans will leave foreign regions.. And whether we want to admit or not - there are those who are just "taking" a spot of a potential foreigner, and they can either be "disliked" or be "sympathized" cause of potential charism in them to be (say like Duckdeok or Byul for ex.), BUT ALSO --> there are those who actually really CONTRIBUTE to the foreign scene, regardless of them being Korean.. And by Contribute, I really mean CONTRIBUTE PRETTY DAMN LARGE in a way like ForGG, Polt, and/or MC did..
So yah - it's not THAT bad that the competition has been "increased".. In fact I like that 2014 format wasn't implemented "right-of-the-bat", but we had like 1 full year to "establish" a group of "native koreans" region-wise.. And with the new changes just couldn't be better.. It's like a good place to start from and still make things count.. PLS - be optimistic about the scene.. The 2013 year was an "experiment" in some ways at the end when you think about it.. There are better days to come I think
================================================================ Hope I'm not much wrong about it ================================================================ As much as it is easy for me to write as a fan/spectator while players or those who work hard to be lose chances or opportunities cause of a higher competition than usual.. Hope the foreign players that are, and those who "are to be" don't mind about me thinking that despite really "cruel" - still 2013 was a good year for eSports in many ways to be.. Even if it was "too much", it's still a good viable "start" I think..
================================================================ Another "general" point/feel I think ================================================================ With 2013 being so "cruel" in terms of high-competition and 2014 to be a bit less uber-skill-competitive - I honestly think that Blizz did like the BEST POSSIBLE THING there could really be.. Now as is ->- the SC2 eSports scene got BOTH - HIGH-BURST-START and now also a chance/hope for new/more LOCAL HEROES to be born/made..
I honestly think that this was a really damn good way to found/start/promote it..
And I also think that it was probably your job to make people react to the title of it.. From which - judging by me for example - you seem to have succeeded..
On November 29 2013 09:27 VArsovskiSC wrote: It's not whether you expect a foreigner to win a tournament.. it's more like whether you'd be really happy to be surprised about it..
And IDK about you sir (the OP/thread writer), but I don't see the point of all this..
And that's like MOSTLY case I'm really satisfied/happy of the foreign hope.. It's a good state to have a talent and still no results.. I don't see why would be "concerned" while in fact eSports is growing..
================================================================ Outside of Korea too - eSports is GROWING.. And here's why I think about it ================================================================ In 2013 we got players like Babyknight, Daishy, HerOMarinE, Welmu, and even MarineLord lately.. Like - we're soon to be in a position to make it happen where we all thought it was impossible to be - actually have a Foreigner TERRAN elite..
Perhaps NA doesn't seem to have quite a bit of young talents or future as say EU currently has, but pretty sure that there are some to be.. Speaking about it - expecting/hoping the two S-name players that are currently in Korea (or to be there I think) - State and Snute - to potentially going to shine in the near future.. at least a bit..
And yes - again - it wasn't about whether foreigner will win a major all-star-best player tournament.. It was about the quality of play..
================================================================ There are also other sports (in real life too) that one country really dominates, don't you agree ?? ================================================================ Many countries (and by many here I think like maybe ALL of them, lol) haven't managed to beat US in basketball for like what - 10, 20, 50 years ?? - so --> should they post a thing like this ??
Like - if the rest of the world created a team and trained and created the strongest all-star team there can be - will they still be able to win over NBA from US ??, ofc - it will be oh-so-damn-close, but if they lose, should the rest of the world really mourn about it ?
If there was a Basketball tourney every two weeks, should the rest of the world be "concerned" about US winning all the time ??, ofc. the BB international stage is growing and for example Spain and Argentina are as close an all-star team nearly NBA quality as it gets, but yah - why have the need to specifically make a thread/concern/special-effort pointing about it.. ??
Wrote about the BB as a sport cause of analogy usage o.f.c., not to derail it..
================================================================ Reason to "react" like this directly.. ================================================================ Honestly sir, i don't think you're helping, it feels like you're just making it be/feel worse than it actually is..
Rofl, like - when read the title is as almost my heart stopped man, it's like "judgement-day" title or sth.. And even more specifically - title sounded like ForGG left and returned to Korea about it and like some kind of a "prophecy" of all the other Koreans soon leaving.. ??
For a moment thought that ALL the Koreans will leave foreign regions.. And whether we want to admit or not - there are those who are just "taking" a spot of a potential foreigner, and they can either be "disliked" or be "sympathized" cause of potential charism in them to be (say like Duckdeok or Byul for ex.), BUT ALSO --> there are those who actually really CONTRIBUTE to the foreign scene, regardless of them being Korean.. And by Contribute, I really mean CONTRIBUTE PRETTY DAMN LARGE in a way like ForGG, Polt, and/or MC did..
So yah - it's not THAT bad that the competition has been "increased".. In fact I like that 2014 format wasn't implemented "right-of-the-bat", but we had like 1 full year to "establish" a group of "native koreans" region-wise.. And with the new changes just couldn't be better.. It's like a good place to start from and still make things count.. PLS - be optimistic about the scene.. The 2013 year was an "experiment" in some ways at the end when you think about it.. There are better days to come I think
================================================================ Hope I'm not much wrong about it ================================================================ As much as it is easy for me to write as a fan/spectator while players or those who work hard to be lose chances or opportunities cause of a higher competition than usual.. Hope the foreign players that are, and those who "are to be" don't mind about me thinking that despite really "cruel" - still 2013 was a good year for eSports in many ways to be.. Even if it was "too much", it's still a good viable "start" I think..
================================================================ Another "general" point/feel I think ================================================================ With 2013 being so "cruel" in terms of high-competition and 2014 to be a bit less uber-skill-competitive - I honestly think that Blizz did like the BEST POSSIBLE THING there could really be.. Now as is ->- the SC2 eSports scene got BOTH - HIGH-BURST-START and now also a chance/hope for new/more LOCAL HEROES to be born/made..
I honestly think that this was a really damn good way to found/start/promote it..
And I also think that it was probably your job to make people react to the title of it.. From which - judging by me for example - you seem to have succeeded..
You realize that Snute is a European player playing in North America, right?
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right?
Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere.
Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash.
Isn't your last sentence also racist?
Foreigners cheer for foreigners because they're underdogs. Racism has nothing to do with with it. Europeans and Americans like 'foreign Asians' as well...which is why Sen and the Chinese players have lots of support as well. Most foreigners also have their favourite foreigner, and their favourite Korean.
His point is that the whole point is the "home town" nonsense does not make sense. These people don't support "the homwtown heroes" they cheer for one characteristic, being a non korean. It does not matter if they come from Europe, America, Asia, as long as they are not korean, they are qualified. Oh and that last statement is a simple fact proven over and over so don't even try to make a racist point out of that.
dat logic. If a foreigner roots for a foreigner, its racism. If someone calls non-Koreans trash, it's not racism but fact.
If you don't like people rooting for foreigners, or foreigners in general, just stick to watching GSL, GSTL and Proleague, and stop following foreign and international tournaments. You can't tell people what to like or what not to like. It's not racism it's preference and opinion. If it was the American, German, or Chinese scene which had such an over-bearing dominance over the scene, many would probably feel the same towards them. Stop being elitist and just accept that people have different preferences, and there are different fans. I've been a fan of mousesports and Fnatic long before SC2 was ever released, should I stop cheering for the players on my favourite teams because they're not the best? I don't care for most Koreans, because I don't watch Korean tournaments because they're at an impossible time, and nor do I have the time and patience for VODs, so I cheer for players who I've been following since WC3, and other players I see regularly in the European tournaments I watch. I dislike some foreigners and love a few Koreans from seeing them so lively at European events (JD, MC..I'd say StarDust but I like his character but not his playstyle) etc. Just deal with it that people like different things...
So instead of addressing his point you (once again) do a whole rant about raciscm. good job.
What *IS* your point then? From what I've read, you're just angry that people don't cheer for Koreans. I've addressed that, you just have to read.
On November 29 2013 09:27 VArsovskiSC wrote: It's not whether you expect a foreigner to win a tournament.. it's more like whether you'd be really happy to be surprised about it..
And IDK about you sir (the OP/thread writer), but I don't see the point of all this..
And that's like MOSTLY case I'm really satisfied/happy of the foreign hope.. It's a good state to have a talent and still no results.. I don't see why would be "concerned" while in fact eSports is growing..
================================================================ Outside of Korea too - eSports is GROWING.. And here's why I think about it ================================================================ In 2013 we got players like Babyknight, Daishy, HerOMarinE, Welmu, and even MarineLord lately.. Like - we're soon to be in a position to make it happen where we all thought it was impossible to be - actually have a Foreigner TERRAN elite..
Perhaps NA doesn't seem to have quite a bit of young talents or future as say EU currently has, but pretty sure that there are some to be.. Speaking about it - expecting/hoping the two S-name players that are currently in Korea (or to be there I think) - State and Snute - to potentially going to shine in the near future.. at least a bit..
And yes - again - it wasn't about whether foreigner will win a major all-star-best player tournament.. It was about the quality of play..
================================================================ There are also other sports (in real life too) that one country really dominates, don't you agree ?? ================================================================ Many countries (and by many here I think like maybe ALL of them, lol) haven't managed to beat US in basketball for like what - 10, 20, 50 years ?? - so --> should they post a thing like this ??
Like - if the rest of the world created a team and trained and created the strongest all-star team there can be - will they still be able to win over NBA from US ??, ofc - it will be oh-so-damn-close, but if they lose, should the rest of the world really mourn about it ?
If there was a Basketball tourney every two weeks, should the rest of the world be "concerned" about US winning all the time ??, ofc. the BB international stage is growing and for example Spain and Argentina are as close an all-star team nearly NBA quality as it gets, but yah - why have the need to specifically make a thread/concern/special-effort pointing about it.. ??
Wrote about the BB as a sport cause of analogy usage o.f.c., not to derail it..
================================================================ Reason to "react" like this directly.. ================================================================ Honestly sir, i don't think you're helping, it feels like you're just making it be/feel worse than it actually is..
Rofl, like - when read the title is as almost my heart stopped man, it's like "judgement-day" title or sth.. And even more specifically - title sounded like ForGG left and returned to Korea about it and like some kind of a "prophecy" of all the other Koreans soon leaving.. ??
For a moment thought that ALL the Koreans will leave foreign regions.. And whether we want to admit or not - there are those who are just "taking" a spot of a potential foreigner, and they can either be "disliked" or be "sympathized" cause of potential charism in them to be (say like Duckdeok or Byul for ex.), BUT ALSO --> there are those who actually really CONTRIBUTE to the foreign scene, regardless of them being Korean.. And by Contribute, I really mean CONTRIBUTE PRETTY DAMN LARGE in a way like ForGG, Polt, and/or MC did..
So yah - it's not THAT bad that the competition has been "increased".. In fact I like that 2014 format wasn't implemented "right-of-the-bat", but we had like 1 full year to "establish" a group of "native koreans" region-wise.. And with the new changes just couldn't be better.. It's like a good place to start from and still make things count.. PLS - be optimistic about the scene.. The 2013 year was an "experiment" in some ways at the end when you think about it.. There are better days to come I think
================================================================ Hope I'm not much wrong about it ================================================================ As much as it is easy for me to write as a fan/spectator while players or those who work hard to be lose chances or opportunities cause of a higher competition than usual.. Hope the foreign players that are, and those who "are to be" don't mind about me thinking that despite really "cruel" - still 2013 was a good year for eSports in many ways to be.. Even if it was "too much", it's still a good viable "start" I think..
================================================================ Another "general" point/feel I think ================================================================ With 2013 being so "cruel" in terms of high-competition and 2014 to be a bit less uber-skill-competitive - I honestly think that Blizz did like the BEST POSSIBLE THING there could really be.. Now as is ->- the SC2 eSports scene got BOTH - HIGH-BURST-START and now also a chance/hope for new/more LOCAL HEROES to be born/made..
I honestly think that this was a really damn good way to found/start/promote it..
And I also think that it was probably your job to make people react to the title of it.. From which - judging by me for example - you seem to have succeeded..
You realize that Snute is a European player playing in North America, right?
Is it the only thing you got from his post ? It's a damn fine post and he put time in it. I think most of this is spot on.
On November 29 2013 09:27 VArsovskiSC wrote: [...]
And IDK about you sir (the OP/thread writer), but I don't see the point of all this..
[...]
I think this discussion is way more relaxing than discussions about Bnet, WCS regionlock, design and whatever. TL just get prepared for chrismas, the time of rest and peace.
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote: [quote]
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right?
Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere.
Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash.
Isn't your last sentence also racist?
Foreigners cheer for foreigners because they're underdogs. Racism has nothing to do with with it. Europeans and Americans like 'foreign Asians' as well...which is why Sen and the Chinese players have lots of support as well. Most foreigners also have their favourite foreigner, and their favourite Korean.
His point is that the whole point is the "home town" nonsense does not make sense. These people don't support "the homwtown heroes" they cheer for one characteristic, being a non korean. It does not matter if they come from Europe, America, Asia, as long as they are not korean, they are qualified. Oh and that last statement is a simple fact proven over and over so don't even try to make a racist point out of that.
dat logic. If a foreigner roots for a foreigner, its racism. If someone calls non-Koreans trash, it's not racism but fact.
If you don't like people rooting for foreigners, or foreigners in general, just stick to watching GSL, GSTL and Proleague, and stop following foreign and international tournaments. You can't tell people what to like or what not to like. It's not racism it's preference and opinion. If it was the American, German, or Chinese scene which had such an over-bearing dominance over the scene, many would probably feel the same towards them. Stop being elitist and just accept that people have different preferences, and there are different fans. I've been a fan of mousesports and Fnatic long before SC2 was ever released, should I stop cheering for the players on my favourite teams because they're not the best? I don't care for most Koreans, because I don't watch Korean tournaments because they're at an impossible time, and nor do I have the time and patience for VODs, so I cheer for players who I've been following since WC3, and other players I see regularly in the European tournaments I watch. I dislike some foreigners and love a few Koreans from seeing them so lively at European events (JD, MC..I'd say StarDust but I like his character but not his playstyle) etc. Just deal with it that people like different things...
So instead of addressing his point you (once again) do a whole rant about raciscm. good job.
What *IS* your point then? From what I've read, you're just angry that people don't cheer for Koreans. I've addressed that, you just have to read.
That the whole hometown nonsense makes no sense since the only requirment for people to be called "a hometown hero" is simply being not a korean. i am not angry people dont cheer for koreans, i am sick of this lame hometown heroes excuse that makes absolutely no sense since i can relate as much to korean as an american.
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote: [quote]
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right?
Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere.
Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash.
Isn't your last sentence also racist?
Foreigners cheer for foreigners because they're underdogs. Racism has nothing to do with with it. Europeans and Americans like 'foreign Asians' as well...which is why Sen and the Chinese players have lots of support as well. Most foreigners also have their favourite foreigner, and their favourite Korean.
His point is that the whole point is the "home town" nonsense does not make sense. These people don't support "the homwtown heroes" they cheer for one characteristic, being a non korean. It does not matter if they come from Europe, America, Asia, as long as they are not korean, they are qualified. Oh and that last statement is a simple fact proven over and over so don't even try to make a racist point out of that.
dat logic. If a foreigner roots for a foreigner, its racism. If someone calls non-Koreans trash, it's not racism but fact.
If you don't like people rooting for foreigners, or foreigners in general, just stick to watching GSL, GSTL and Proleague, and stop following foreign and international tournaments. You can't tell people what to like or what not to like. It's not racism it's preference and opinion. If it was the American, German, or Chinese scene which had such an over-bearing dominance over the scene, many would probably feel the same towards them. Stop being elitist and just accept that people have different preferences, and there are different fans. I've been a fan of mousesports and Fnatic long before SC2 was ever released, should I stop cheering for the players on my favourite teams because they're not the best? I don't care for most Koreans, because I don't watch Korean tournaments because they're at an impossible time, and nor do I have the time and patience for VODs, so I cheer for players who I've been following since WC3, and other players I see regularly in the European tournaments I watch. I dislike some foreigners and love a few Koreans from seeing them so lively at European events (JD, MC..I'd say StarDust but I like his character but not his playstyle) etc. Just deal with it that people like different things...
So instead of addressing his point you (once again) do a whole rant about raciscm. good job.
What *IS* your point then? From what I've read, you're just angry that people don't cheer for Koreans. I've addressed that, you just have to read.
That the whole hometown nonsense makes no sense since the only requirment for people to be called "a hometown hero" is simply being not a korean. i am not angry people dont cheer for koreans, i am sick of this lame hometown heroes excuse that makes absolutely no sense since i can relate as much to korean as an american.
He made the point that it isnt "just" racism either. He gave Sen as an example, which makes sense. Sen is quite popular in the western scene, even though he comes from Asia. It's not just racism, it has a lot to do with the fact that people root for the underdog too. Since threads like this one give the (rightful) impression that the Korean scene is the strongest in the world, many people generalize and seem to think that any foreigner-pro against a random Korean is always an uphill battle, making every win of a non-Korean player vs a Korean an event/a surprise. Which ofc is bs but keeps up the hype and is therefore a statement that is supported by the casters and organizations that live from viewerships.
It also becomes a lot easier to see Korean players as one big entity since their elite changes so much and since most of them are very polite/shy in their interviews. Players like MC who are more outgoing and win(/won) a lot also have a lot of non-Korean fans.
I still agree to you that the hometown excuse explains only a small part.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
I dont get it, if you dont care about watching great players perform, but only about nationality (please correct me if im wrong but thats the impression youre giving) how can you even enjoy watching sc2 in the first place?
Sure koreans are more dominating than ever but at the same time the quality of the games and the playerskills are better than ever before.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
The level is great but i need the feel of competition.. and to me it doesnt matter if one or the other Korean wins.. so tourney with only korean are less interesting then mixed tourneys atleast imo. therefore it would be great if the foreigners keep up with the koreans so more poeple will like to watch the game(this also bring more popularity in foereigners country so more money so a higher level everywhere)
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No. There are many fans of the game who do not agree.
no, those arent fans of sc2 even if they like to call themselves that.
People who tell others how they should be fans are pathetic and small minded.
Fanboys- cheer for specific players Fan of Starcraft- cheer for better meta, stronger micro, and impeccable macro Is that clear enough for your bigoted mind to grasp?
The problem really is that the Korean scene cannot support itself anymore. It is no comparison to BW. Apart from a few Kespa teams left basically any other team is dependent on the EU and US. I regard that as a tough situation for the future because Koreans need foreign viewers and foreign viewers need foreign players.
Maybe the Koreans should do more to help foreign players come and stay in Korea.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No. There are many fans of the game who do not agree.
no, those arent fans of sc2 even if they like to call themselves that.
People who tell others how they should be fans are pathetic and small minded.
Fanboys- cheer for specific players Fan of Starcraft- cheer for better meta, stronger micro, and impeccable macro Is that clear enough for your bigoted mind to grasp?
People who tell others how they should be fans are pathetic and small minded. Is that clear enough for your bigoted mind to grasp?
On November 28 2013 13:18 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 28 2013 08:46 Valikyr wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:15 HeeroFX wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:11 emanresU wrote:
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
So the only or number one criteria for you to like a player is: Not a Korean. ? Seems borderline racist to me but hey the community sure aint gonna miss you when you're gone.
Not racist. It's the hometown hero phenomenon. A lot of fans out there (like me) are too bad at the game to see the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans unless they are actually facing each other. So, since we can't see the godlike skill of the Koreans like others, we rally behind certain players. Like most people, we have a particular love for hometown heroes and underdogs, which leaves us with less fondness for the Koreans (one can only be a passionate fan of so many people at once).
I find it odd that so many people in the thread don't recognize this. Stream viewership is considerably affected by foreigner presence so I would have thought there would be more people in that demographic posting here. Oh well.
Ohhh that's why most European fans would cheer for a random American player over a Korean. I mean, it makes so much sense now, since America is like almost in the middle of Europe. I'm actually fairly sure Huk is my neighbour, so why would I cheer for one of those stupid Koreans that live so far away, right?
Stop the excuses, it is borderline racist and if you can't see the difference between e.g. Huk and someone like Dear, you simply don't want to enjoy this game. I really really hope Koreans will dominate even more, so people like you will eventually leave the scene and the rest of us will finally will be able to watch this game in a non-racit, dramaless and hopefully way way less hateful and whiny atmosphere.
Gogo Koreans, time to take out the trash.
Isn't your last sentence also racist?
Foreigners cheer for foreigners because they're underdogs. Racism has nothing to do with with it. Europeans and Americans like 'foreign Asians' as well...which is why Sen and the Chinese players have lots of support as well. Most foreigners also have their favourite foreigner, and their favourite Korean.
No, ES genie hit it spot on. If you have ever been on the receiving end of racism, you'll know that reasons like "hometown support phenomenon" are bullshit excuses for being borderline racist. It's called dog-whistle racism, when people act passive-aggressive-like when it comes to the subject and then vehemently deny they are racist. My favorite is when they say retarded things like "I have a lot of black/asian/hispanic friends so I'm not racist".
I have no doubt that there are some american/european fans that are more than just mildly annoyed that koreans are destroying foreigners. Skill is skill no matter what ethnicity the person behind it is. If the most skilled people are korean, whiny drama and "region-lock" bullshit that people are trying to implement won't ever reverse that fact.
A very melodramatic post. This year has had amazing starcraft and championships that were interesting showing great skill with both foreigners and koreans involved. I'm really sick of this korean vs foreigner mentality. I want to see good games from interesting players. Now more then ever the koreans are showing great personality and great games. I think it also minimizes how great naniwa and scarlett really did this year just because they didn't take 1rst place.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No. There are many fans of the game who do not agree.
no, those arent fans of sc2 even if they like to call themselves that.
People who tell others how they should be fans are pathetic and small minded.
Fanboys- cheer for specific players Fan of Starcraft- cheer for better meta, stronger micro, and impeccable macro Is that clear enough for your bigoted mind to grasp?
People who tell others how they should be fans are pathetic and small minded. Is that clear enough for your bigoted mind to grasp?
Lol. You're a joke. Sorry Koreans keep crushing your fanboy crush. Maybe you'll find someone else to fantasize about.
Also, I'm sure you don't understand the definition of a bigot. Read a book kid.
On November 28 2013 05:09 HeeroFX wrote: well I wil probably stop watching SC 2 when Naniwa and Scarlett call it
Because no one watched Brood War right?
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No. There are many fans of the game who do not agree.
no, those arent fans of sc2 even if they like to call themselves that.
People who tell others how they should be fans are pathetic and small minded.
Fanboys- cheer for specific players Fan of Starcraft- cheer for better meta, stronger micro, and impeccable macro Is that clear enough for your bigoted mind to grasp?
People who tell others how they should be fans are pathetic and small minded. Is that clear enough for your bigoted mind to grasp?
Lol. You're a joke. Sorry Koreans keep crushing your fanboy crush. Maybe you'll find someone else to fantasize about.
Also, I'm sure you don't understand the definition of a bigot. Read a book kid.
I never even said which players I like. So while I go ahead and read books, why don't you read the posts you're replying to.
No i just don't have players I am interested in watching. I only care about events that have players I like to watch. That is resonable. I don't watch a TV show I don't like even if its suppose to be good.
sc2 is getting more and more beautiful for each week that goes by, and anyone whos actually a fan of the game would agree with this.
No. There are many fans of the game who do not agree.
no, those arent fans of sc2 even if they like to call themselves that.
People who tell others how they should be fans are pathetic and small minded.
Fanboys- cheer for specific players Fan of Starcraft- cheer for better meta, stronger micro, and impeccable macro Is that clear enough for your bigoted mind to grasp?
People who tell others how they should be fans are pathetic and small minded. Is that clear enough for your bigoted mind to grasp?
Lol. You're a joke. Sorry Koreans keep crushing your fanboy crush. Maybe you'll find someone else to fantasize about.
Also, I'm sure you don't understand the definition of a bigot. Read a book kid.
I never even said which players I like. So while I go ahead and read books, why don't you read the posts you're replying to.
I am a beautiful goat btw.
Lol, I tried... Keep building your TL resume buddy, it'll land you a great job someday.
DreamHack and WCG are now guaranteed to be won by a Korean Scarlett is the ONLY foreigner left at IEM Singapore ASUS NorthCon obviously still a week away
Well, maybe Scarlett can make the impossible possible, but with only her going into the ro8 the chances are looking slim.
The players from Korea at ASUS ROG (San, MMA, Innovation, Jaedong, Life) look beatable though. Guess we'll have our best shot at the final event of the year.
On December 01 2013 00:39 JustPassingBy wrote: Well, maybe Scarlett can make the impossible possible, but with only her going into the ro8 the chances are looking slim.
The players from Korea at ASUS ROG (San, MMA, Innovation, Jaedong, Life) look beatable though. Guess we'll have our best shot at the final event of the year.
In which way Innovation, Jaedong and Life are "beatable"?
On December 01 2013 00:39 JustPassingBy wrote: Well, maybe Scarlett can make the impossible possible, but with only her going into the ro8 the chances are looking slim.
The players from Korea at ASUS ROG (San, MMA, Innovation, Jaedong, Life) look beatable though. Guess we'll have our best shot at the final event of the year.
In which way Innovation, Jaedong and Life are "beatable"?
The true monster under the bed is jjakji. All others pale in comparison.
On December 01 2013 00:39 JustPassingBy wrote: Well, maybe Scarlett can make the impossible possible, but with only her going into the ro8 the chances are looking slim.
The players from Korea at ASUS ROG (San, MMA, Innovation, Jaedong, Life) look beatable though. Guess we'll have our best shot at the final event of the year.
In which way Innovation, Jaedong and Life are "beatable"?
On December 01 2013 00:39 JustPassingBy wrote: Well, maybe Scarlett can make the impossible possible, but with only her going into the ro8 the chances are looking slim.
The players from Korea at ASUS ROG (San, MMA, Innovation, Jaedong, Life) look beatable though. Guess we'll have our best shot at the final event of the year.
In which way Innovation, Jaedong and Life are "beatable"?
On December 01 2013 00:39 JustPassingBy wrote: Well, maybe Scarlett can make the impossible possible, but with only her going into the ro8 the chances are looking slim.
The players from Korea at ASUS ROG (San, MMA, Innovation, Jaedong, Life) look beatable though. Guess we'll have our best shot at the final event of the year.
In which way Innovation, Jaedong and Life are "beatable"?
Well to be technical Jaekong's weakness is finals
Finals vs koreans
Maybe even all finals. He never got to finals with a non-korean in it ;D.
I wish another article was written, something like "Nothing important happens at midnight"
The concern created around the idea that foreigners haven't won a premier tournament with good korean participation in 2013 sounds so fake. I don't see how it's a big deal, I don't see how it's different from past years, I don't see how a foreigner suddenly winning one of the last 4 tourneys of the year would have changed a thing about it.
I remember very well being a western teenager myself, ty, and I have never had such a busy schedule ever since. The foreign progamers generally go fulltime after highschool, and postphone/drop out of higher grade studies. At that time it is too late to catch up. As for football, music, ballet etc. the schools have systems makes early development possible, but having that for gaming will probably never happen.
Magnus Carlsens family did take a full year off to travel the world learning and playing chess in his earoy teens. That is dedication!
On December 02 2013 04:33 Nebuchad wrote: I wish another article was written, something like "Nothing important happens at midnight"
The concern created around the idea that foreigners haven't won a premier tournament with good korean participation in 2013 sounds so fake. I don't see how it's a big deal, I don't see how it's different from past years, I don't see how a foreigner suddenly winning one of the last 4 tourneys of the year would have changed a thing about it.
I think its more to see the evolution of foreigners vs koreans. Remember that a couple years ago everyone was on equal footing and year by year we see more korean domination.
On November 28 2013 04:39 sM.Zik wrote: Finally the skill level of Starcraft 2 is where it should be
True, true. I think the best chance for a foreigner to win an event now is around lotv release. I feel like a year or two after lotv seeing a foreigner take a map off of a korean in an offline competition will be huge.
And I thought people learned something from the floor-wiping-with-foreigners that followed HotS release...
No. They won't have any chance with LotV unless the game is going to be dumbed down multitasking-wise.
On December 02 2013 01:05 tredogz wrote: threaten to.... it is already over. Koreans are not at all fun to watch for me. They killed this game for me. ded
I bet you wouldn't even recognize whether it's Korean playing or not from just watching a pro game with no casters. So stop pretending. Maybe you were never interested in the actual game to begin with.
On December 02 2013 04:33 Nebuchad wrote: I wish another article was written, something like "Nothing important happens at midnight"
The concern created around the idea that foreigners haven't won a premier tournament with good korean participation in 2013 sounds so fake. I don't see how it's a big deal, I don't see how it's different from past years, I don't see how a foreigner suddenly winning one of the last 4 tourneys of the year would have changed a thing about it.
I think its more to see the evolution of foreigners vs koreans. Remember that a couple years ago everyone was on equal footing and year by year we see more korean domination.
To be fair, the game in late 2010/early 2011 was still fairly new and the Koreans figured everything out a lot quicker.
On December 02 2013 01:05 tredogz wrote: threaten to.... it is already over. Koreans are not at all fun to watch for me. They killed this game for me. ded
I bet you wouldn't even recognize whether it's Korean playing or not from just watching a pro game with no casters. So stop pretending. Maybe you were never interested in the actual game to begin with.
Exactly this is the reason. Except the top10 players worldwide. It is actually Blizzard's mistake that 99% of top level games are looking pretty boring. It looks rather that making correct units is stronger than the (true) skills of players. Especially in TvP who unit composition is more important than everything else. Many spells are too strong and have bad design, FF, EMP and fungal are there to prevent micro from opponent. It should be exactly the opposite. It's somewhat weird that 200 vs 200 shows the most boring fights and moments of the game. 150 vs 150 or 100 vs 100 are a lot better and more interesting.
edit: From a research study in USA: Someone invited 24 people to watch a movie. Before the movie, 12 people were told that the movie will be showed in HD Quality. After the movie: the same 12 said that the movie was in HD, other 12 said "no" or "I don't know". Reality: The movie was NOT in HD.
On December 02 2013 01:05 tredogz wrote: threaten to.... it is already over. Koreans are not at all fun to watch for me. They killed this game for me. ded
I bet you wouldn't even recognize whether it's Korean playing or not from just watching a pro game with no casters. So stop pretending. Maybe you were never interested in the actual game to begin with.
Exactly this is the reason. Except the top10 players worldwide. It is actually Blizzard's mistake that 99% of top level games are looking pretty boring. It looks rather that making correct units is stronger than the (true) skills of players. Especially in TvP who unit composition is more important than everything else. Many spells are too strong and have bad design, FF, EMP and fungal are there to prevent micro from opponent. It should be exactly the opposite. It's somewhat weird that 200 vs 200 shows the most boring fights and moments of the games. 150 vs 150 or 100 vs 100 are a lot better.
Don't spells increase micro? I mean storm dodging, templar control etc.
On December 02 2013 01:05 tredogz wrote: threaten to.... it is already over. Koreans are not at all fun to watch for me. They killed this game for me. ded
I bet you wouldn't even recognize whether it's Korean playing or not from just watching a pro game with no casters. So stop pretending. Maybe you were never interested in the actual game to begin with.
Exactly this is the reason. Except the top10 players worldwide. It is actually Blizzard's mistake that 99% of top level games are looking pretty boring. It looks rather that making correct units is stronger than the (true) skills of players. Especially in TvP who unit composition is more important than everything else. Many spells are too strong and have bad design, FF, EMP and fungal are there to prevent micro from opponent. It should be exactly the opposite. It's somewhat weird that 200 vs 200 shows the most boring fights and moments of the games. 150 vs 150 or 100 vs 100 are a lot better.
Don't spells increase micro? I mean storm dodging, templar control etc.
I said "many spells", not "every spell". I hate to watch pre-split. It is so boring to watch and too strong for doing nothing. I want to watch micro DURING a fight. Pre-split happens a few seconds before the fight.
On December 02 2013 01:05 tredogz wrote: threaten to.... it is already over. Koreans are not at all fun to watch for me. They killed this game for me. ded
I bet you wouldn't even recognize whether it's Korean playing or not from just watching a pro game with no casters. So stop pretending. Maybe you were never interested in the actual game to begin with.
Exactly this is the reason. Except the top10 players worldwide. It is actually Blizzard's mistake that 99% of top level games are looking pretty boring. It looks rather that making correct units is stronger than the (true) skills of players. Especially in TvP who unit composition is more important than everything else. Many spells are too strong and have bad design, FF, EMP and fungal are there to prevent micro from opponent. It should be exactly the opposite. It's somewhat weird that 200 vs 200 shows the most boring fights and moments of the games. 150 vs 150 or 100 vs 100 are a lot better.
Don't spells increase micro? I mean storm dodging, templar control etc.
I think caster micro, especially AOE spells, is more about positioning and timing, whereas basic unit micro depends mostly on pure speed and accuracy. Arguably the former require less natural mechanical talent/less repetitive training, and thus more friendly to the stereotypical foreigner.
On December 02 2013 01:05 tredogz wrote: threaten to.... it is already over. Koreans are not at all fun to watch for me. They killed this game for me. ded
I bet you wouldn't even recognize whether it's Korean playing or not from just watching a pro game with no casters. So stop pretending. Maybe you were never interested in the actual game to begin with.
Exactly this is the reason. Except the top10 players worldwide. It is actually Blizzard's mistake that 99% of top level games are looking pretty boring. It looks rather that making correct units is stronger than the (true) skills of players. Especially in TvP who unit composition is more important than everything else. Many spells are too strong and have bad design, FF, EMP and fungal are there to prevent micro from opponent. It should be exactly the opposite. It's somewhat weird that 200 vs 200 shows the most boring fights and moments of the game. 150 vs 150 or 100 vs 100 are a lot better and more interesting.
edit: From a research study in USA: Someone invited 24 people to watch a movie. Before the movie, 12 people were told that the movie will be showed in HD Quality. After the movie: the same 12 said that the movie was in HD, other 12 said "no" or "I don't know". Reality: The movie was NOT in HD.
Well EMP was impossible to dodge in BW. Neither was plague, spawned broodlings, Ensnare etc... And BW was more micro intensive than SC2.
SC2 spells ARE pushing for the player to micro.
I don't get the bad design. They are quite similar to BW (i said quite) and no one complain about design in that game (except for TvP and vultures)
EMP => Same as BW but different unit (also does less damage). EMP could one shot the shield of a nexus. Fungal => It's a mix between ensnare and plague. Ensnare was almost rooting units. Storm => Same but less damage. Nuke (if it's a spell) => Same but less damage. Abduct => this is new Blinding cloud => Reverse dark swarm Feedback => Feedback but on other unit.
You can dodge a fungal. You can dodge EMP (more difficult) and you can also micro templar to get feedback. Spells are not really part of the terrible terrible damage in SC2. Spells does not instant kill your armies like Storm in BW or that "FFFFFF" iradiate
You can dodge a fungal. You can dodge EMP (more difficult) and you can also micro templar to get feedback. Spells are not really part of the terrible terrible damage in SC2. Spells does not instant kill your armies like Storm in BW or that "FFFFFF" iradiate
I've seen "FFFFF iradiate" a few times, but I am an ignorant blasphemer who never played bw. Could you enlighten me as to the inside meaning?
Is it a hotkey or a 'F U' or fuuuuccccccccckkkkkk thing or what.
You can dodge a fungal. You can dodge EMP (more difficult) and you can also micro templar to get feedback. Spells are not really part of the terrible terrible damage in SC2. Spells does not instant kill your armies like Storm in BW or that "FFFFFF" iradiate
I've seen "FFFFF iradiate" a few times, but I am an ignorant blasphemer who never played bw. Could you enlighten me as to the inside meaning?
Is it a hotkey or a 'F U' or fuuuuccccccccckkkkkk thing or what.
TBH I was really surprised how good 2012 was for foreigners. 2012 was a fluke, 2013 is a return to normality. After all how popular is SC2 now in the "rest of the world"? My masters league turned to gold league now and I can barely make a mistake there without losing the game. My guess is A LOT of people quit to other easier games. Don't worry just yet, the last expansion will bring them back. But after that, foreign scene will die out and in like 7 years we will only see Koreans everywhere like it was in BW.
On December 04 2013 21:21 Reasonable wrote: That last sentence sounded like whine.
TBH I was really surprised how good 2012 was for foreigners. 2012 was a fluke, 2013 is a return to normality. After all how popular is SC2 now in the "rest of the world"? My masters league turned to gold league now and I can barely make a mistake there without losing the game. My guess is A LOT of people quit to other easier games. Don't worry just yet, the last expansion will bring them back. But after that, foreign scene will die out and in like 7 years we will only see Koreans everywhere like it was in BW.
Well you can't compare with Brood War because in order to compete with Koreans you would have been obliged to move to Korea which was expensive as they had no salary back then. Today it's much "easier" because there is a lot of tournament and all people can go wherever they like.
I'm all for the Korean but you can't campre it like that.
On December 04 2013 21:21 Reasonable wrote: That last sentence sounded like whine.
TBH I was really surprised how good 2012 was for foreigners. 2012 was a fluke, 2013 is a return to normality. After all how popular is SC2 now in the "rest of the world"? My masters league turned to gold league now and I can barely make a mistake there without losing the game. My guess is A LOT of people quit to other easier games. Don't worry just yet, the last expansion will bring them back. But after that, foreign scene will die out and in like 7 years we will only see Koreans everywhere like it was in BW.
Well you can't compare with Brood War because in order to compete with Koreans you would have been obliged to move to Korea which was expensive as they had no salary back then. Today it's much "easier" because there is a lot of tournament and all people can go wherever they like.
I'm all for the Korean but you can't campre it like that.
Um guys who moved to Korea really couldn't compete man even if they were invited and making in BW was really really hard for a number of factors.
The clock is running short, Scarlett, Elfi, and Vortix are all that remains to stem the ever growing tide of Korean dominance. Will our heroes succeed in defending the hopes of millions? Or will the empire that is Korea only increase its power. Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of Dragon Ball Z!!!!
On December 02 2013 01:05 tredogz wrote: threaten to.... it is already over. Koreans are not at all fun to watch for me. They killed this game for me. ded
I bet you wouldn't even recognize whether it's Korean playing or not from just watching a pro game with no casters. So stop pretending. Maybe you were never interested in the actual game to begin with.
Exactly this is the reason. Except the top10 players worldwide. It is actually Blizzard's mistake that 99% of top level games are looking pretty boring. It looks rather that making correct units is stronger than the (true) skills of players. Especially in TvP who unit composition is more important than everything else. Many spells are too strong and have bad design, FF, EMP and fungal are there to prevent micro from opponent. It should be exactly the opposite. It's somewhat weird that 200 vs 200 shows the most boring fights and moments of the game. 150 vs 150 or 100 vs 100 are a lot better and more interesting.
edit: From a research study in USA: Someone invited 24 people to watch a movie. Before the movie, 12 people were told that the movie will be showed in HD Quality. After the movie: the same 12 said that the movie was in HD, other 12 said "no" or "I don't know". Reality: The movie was NOT in HD.
Well EMP was impossible to dodge in BW. Neither was plague, spawned broodlings, Ensnare etc... And BW was more micro intensive than SC2.
SC2 spells ARE pushing for the player to micro.
I don't get the bad design. They are quite similar to BW (i said quite) and no one complain about design in that game (except for TvP and vultures)
EMP => Same as BW but different unit (also does less damage). EMP could one shot the shield of a nexus. Fungal => It's a mix between ensnare and plague. Ensnare was almost rooting units. Storm => Same but less damage. Nuke (if it's a spell) => Same but less damage. Abduct => this is new Blinding cloud => Reverse dark swarm Feedback => Feedback but on other unit.
You can dodge a fungal. You can dodge EMP (more difficult) and you can also micro templar to get feedback. Spells are not really part of the terrible terrible damage in SC2. Spells does not instant kill your armies like Storm in BW or that "FFFFFF" iradiate
EMP was never as important in BW as it is in Sc2. Engaging in TvP vs Collosus + HT is super super difficult as a small misposition or micromistake can cost you the game. Thus, we see all the deathball dancing instead of real battles.
Psy storm is a fantastic ability, but EMP vs Psy Storm is ruining the matchup. IMO the game would be much better if Psy storm DPS was nerfed a bit (80 damage over 5 seconds instead of over 4 seconds), and then the Ghost's ability were completely redesigned.
That would create a very fun bio vs Storm micro in a more balanced and fair way.
This is so awesome xD If Scarlett wins she does, what no other foreigner has achieved in all of 2013, which is such a great story! And Jaedong... I feel if someone in 2013 deserved more gold medals than he got, its him! So I am happy with whoever wins
This has been a glorious year for Korea, their all-kill is complete and their domination has never looked more solid! And the best part is, we still have a final t watch tomorrow!
EPT
Oh well, happy tomorrow bejayday Fusse. 
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